And our Jewish brothers and sisters are also slaughtering and murdering Arabs. It goes both ways.

One reason we protested apartheid so heavily is because it was similiar to our experiences as African Americans in the civil rights movement. But that doesn't take away from the fact that we are just as passionalte about other issues that inflict the country. Just because you haven't personally seen it or heard about it in the media doesn't mean its not happening.

Not quite...we don't target civilians but keep trying.

-Rudey

So all of those innocent Arab civilians that get killed are what? Just in the wrong place at the wrong time? Although I have never been to Israel, my Dad lives there and my sister and I know the conflict and violence is being perpetrated by both side.

That's a ridiculous statement.

Do Israelis strap bombs on their backs and blow themselves up on busses full of nothing but civilians? Do they target anyone at random? If the Palestinians would turn these criminal killers in, there wouldn't be collateral damage. If you surround yourself with human shields, you shouldn't be surprised when some of them get killed when you have a bomb dropped on you.

Yes that's right you've never been there and don't know much about the region or that country in general. You know what? Let Israel take care of its business. Let it just not worry about civilians and putting its soldiers in harm's way. I would be more than happy for that.

I don't care what your dad does or where he lives or his personal opinion. If you have facts, open up a whole new thread and we can discuss them. But then again you ran away from the whole Reagan thread so who knows if you will. Until then let's just talk about Sudan and how the African American community is silent.

-Rudey

I commented on YOUR statement and apparently if someone holds a difference of opinion than yours, you want to start getting insulting.
Matter of fact I was actually going to post wrong thread,but just hadn't yet.
I don't think I stated my Dad's personal opinion and I'm sure he'll be worried to know that you don't care anything about him. It sounds to me like you are saying all Jews should share the same opinion on the matter, just as African Americans should all share the same opinion on the Sudan. But you may want to consider some of us are made of up different types of ethnicities.

No they just wipe out entire communities with one big bomb.
But as much as I hate agree with Rudey this is a thread on the Sudan.

Nobody got insulting. Please show the insult. Again, if you have facts and want to start a new thread please do. I don't give a crap what all Jews say, do, or think. Well I guess I do but when all Jews agree on something, that'd be a new day. What I do care about is facts. IF you have them, start the thread...don't be afraid. I hope you can be respectful and understand this thread is about Sudan but I am more than willing to talk with you about Israel in a different thread.

-Rudey

Yes those Arab murderers and terrorists do destroy communities and lives with their big bombs with metal, screws, nails, bolts all in there. Yes they do.

-Rudey
--You have difficulties with facts.

Classic a thread was started in my name. So GC! I was getting to it. LOL

My opinion, is that both sides contribute to the violence, who you feel is wrong depends on where you fall on the issue.

Yes some Palestinians have strapped bombs to their chest and taken innocent lives, but the some of the Jews are doing the same thing just with bigger weapons.
Both parties can't seem to live together in peace. I'm not going to let the fact of my Jewish heritage to only allow me to see one side of the issue.

Again, please post facts. I don't ask what your favorite color is, whether you like Chinese or Indian food, and I certainly don't care about someone's personal feelings towards a situation.

No I don't believe there are "Jews" (by the way Israelis) that "are doing the same thing" [strapping "bombs to their chest and taken innocent lives"] using "bigger weapons". Yes there are Israelis that have taken it upon themself to violently lash out at Arabs. But in general the country doesn't support them, has banned their political parties, and their free speech is limited under hate laws so if they hang up a picture calling Arabs pigs, they go to prison.

-Rudey

Rudey please take your own advice and post facts, you haven't posted one yet

BTW, hold your thoughts to me I'm going on vacation, be back July 6th. :D

I didn't post opinion...you did. You started it so show me the facts.

Fact: Israel does not target civilians.

Fact: Israel investigates incidents where innocent civilians are killed regardless of the side.

Fact: Israel lives under a different stress that no country in the world could begin to understand.

Opinion with fact: Israel is judged by different standards than most countries in the world.

Fact: Palestinian terror group target civilians inside and outside of the green line.

Fact: Israel has been attacked repeatedly from the day it was born.

Fact: Nobody complained about Egypt owning Gaza or Trans-Jordan owning the West Bank.

Fact: Jews were slaughtered under Jordanian rule in the West Bank.

Fact: Israel gave and gave up land and still has no peace.

Fact: Clinton said that Arafat was not looking for peace.

Fact: The rulers of Jordan and Egypt have expressed their opinions that Arafat is not looking to make peace, is an ineffective corrupt leader, and should step down.

Fact: You don't know much about Israel.

Fact: Israel, at the risk of breaking up its government, is making efforts to unilaterally withdraw from Gaza and is uprooting Israeli families.

Fact: The UN, Arab countries, the US, the Europeans have all congratulated Israel on being the one to take the initiative.

Fact: I will consume you in this discussion.

-Rudey

Israel targets legitimate targets, and sometimes there is collateral damage (civilians.) Palestinian terrorists rarely target legitimate military targets, and go deliberately target innocent civilians. There is a huge difference between the two.

It's hard to understand that when people are anti-semitic. I love how people dismiss everything that occurs (in reality) and talk about these fantasies of these blood-crazed Jewish imperialists.

Anyone remember the peace talks in which Israel offered Palestine basically the entire Gaza strip and West Bank? In other words, everything they had been asking for? Then Yassir turned it down??? Remember when there was a declared peace between Israel and Palestine? Who broke it? Does anyone remember??? Who glorifies their "martyrs" for blowing up women and children?

It's not exactly a situation where both sides contribute equally to the violence. At this point, I think Israel has tried everything possible and met with a Palestine that wants nothing less than the eradication of the state of Israel and will settle for nothing else. Israel, it seems has decided that the only way to defend its people is to kill the terrorists before they kill Israel's citizens.

Having a different viewpoint on a topic doesn't make you anti-semitic. But I'll have the Christian half of me tellthe Jewish half of me what ya said.

There is no Jewish half to be Jewish. You are or you aren't. You can be half black though if you choose. I didn't see him say you are anti-semitic or even say that having a different viewpoint makes you anti-semitic so relax, breathe, and stop thinking so defensively.

-Rudey

I know Einstein, You are what your mother is, but I can't ignore nor will I ignore the fact my Father and many family members are Jews living in Israel which is still apart of me and my heritage.

Death Toll in 3 Years of Mideast Violence


3,481 deaths in more than three years of Israeli-Palestinian violence.

2,583 on the Palestinian side
898 on the Israeli side
289 Palestinas killed prepring or carryingout attacks
117 Palestinan militants targeted and killed by Israelis
88 Bystanders killed in targted attacks on militants
108 Palestinian sucide bombers
436 victims of suicide bombers
A Palestinian from the West Bank town of Tulkarem killed 29 Israelis on March 27, 2002, during a Passover hotel dinner.
An Israeli F-16 warplane bombing on July 23, 2002, hit a Gaza City apartment building and killed a Hamas military leader, Salah Shehadeh, his bodyguard and 13 bystanders, including his wife, daughter, and eight other children.
244 Israeli soliders killed.
146 jewish setlers killed in the west bank and gaza

Figures go on and on.
I'm not saying either side is right, but both continue to contibute to the violence.

Then I guess, the basic question is:

If The Jews try to work out an agreement with the Palistenians for a Home land, then why does it not work?

The killing still goes on by a want to be country who talk little kids into strapping bombs on and destroying themselves and many others.:mad:

To me, and is just my opinion, that the Isrelies are trying to root out the blackards who do this. What Relegion do the Palistenians Preach? If is doing this, then why do they desearve any Home Country especially when it has been offered to them and have a DipS**t like Arrafat who cannot control his own bowel movement? Oh, he is a littl S**T and has the spine of a snake.

Allah is good, pray to Allah, He preaches kindness to all people!

Then what are the Musilums doing what they are doing?

I truely dont know, but if you can explain to all of us, you will be the better person.

I just dont think you can do it!

Rudey has stated his point, and I beleive him first.

Yes, I get the news and try to injest it.

You have made no points until you can refute what has been asked!

Oh, Earpstein is not Jewish!:rolleyes:

OK - but you're mixing the metaphors.


"Jew" = "someone who practices Judaism"

"Israeli" = "someone who is native to Israel"

By definition, you cannot be half-Jewish and half-Christian. It's a religion - to 'half-practice' one or both would effectively make you neither. You can be of partial ethnic descent - so you can feel free to use those claims in your argument if you really feel that anecdotal evidence matters at all (I don't).

Also, can we use "Israeli" instead of "Jew" when discussing the political side of these things? I don't know why, but that just seems much more correct (and fair?).

I agree. This is a conflict between Israel and some Palestinian organizations.

Israel has declared that they will stop attacking when Hezbolah, Islamic Jihad, etc. stops.

These groups have declared that they will stop attacking Israel as soon as it no longer exists.

For those who disagree with Israel's actions, what would you do if you had the power to affect Israeli policy?

In other words, you are not a Jew Sherlock.

-Rudey
--Ignore it, love it, do whatever you want with it...I don't care.

So 88 people bystanders died in targeted attacks on terrorists. Why were they there? Why don't they renounce violence? Why is it that they're fine with those terrorists existing and living right next to them?? Why should I give a damn about a wife and kids of a murderer?? Why don't they leave? Did they ever say anything against him? Why should I care? Why did Israel attack those terrorists? Why did it attack people who were going to kill more innocent civilians???

You have nothing. Israel won. Israel will bring about the peace itself. Arabs lost the war a long time ago. They lost it when they decided they loved violence instead of negotiations.

Again you've done nothing but a copy and paste. Your figures show nothing and I don't understand why you posted it. Again, if Israelis are allowed to use their weapons and this is all an equal game, then fine...let Israel play.

You have nothing.

-Rudey

If Israel wanted to intentionally target civilians, they could probably wipe out the entire Palestinian population in a day or two.

If the tables were turned, I don't doubt that the Palestinians would do exactly that.

What a shame

You didn't cry?

-Rudey

Are you kidding? I wept openly for the tragic deaths of these poor, poor child murderers

i did - it should have been 10x higher (maybe more)

I've never seen a discussion about the Isreal/Palestinian conflict that didnt get ugly .

**watches from the sidelines**

bumping so that IowaStatePhiPsi can better understand the viewpoint of us Zionist sympathizers.

DEAR WORLD

It appears that you are hard to please. I understand that you are upset over us here in Israel. Indeed, it appears that you are quite upset, even angry and outraged. Indeed, every few years you seem to become upset over us. Today, it is the brutal repression of the Palestinians; yesterday, it was Lebanon; before that it was the bombing of the nuclear reactor in Baghdad and the Yom Kippur War campaign. It appears that Jews who triumph, and who therefore, live, upset you most extraordinarily.

Of course, dear world, long before there was an Israel, we the Jewish people upset you. We upset a German people, who elected a Hitler and we upset an Austrian people, who cheered his entry into Vienna and we upset a whole slew of Slavic nations - Poles, Slovaks, Lithuanians, Ukrainians, Russians, Hungarians, Romanians.

And we go back a long, long way in history of world upset. We upset the Cossacks of Chmielnicki, who massacred tens of thousands of us in 1648-49; we upset the Crusaders, who on their way to liberate the Holy Land, were so upset at Jews that they slaughtered untold numbers of us. We upset, for centuries, a Roman Catholic Church that did its best to define our relationship through Inquisitions. And we upset the arch-enemy of the church, Martin Luther, who in his call to burn the synagogues and the Jews within them, showed an admirable Christian ecumenical spirit.

It is because we became so upset over upsetting you, dear world, that we decided to leave you - in a manner of speaking - and establish a Jewish State. The reasoning was that living in close contact with you, as resident-strangers in the various countries that comprise you, we upset you, irritate you, and disturb you. What better notion, then, than to leave you and thus love you - and have you love us? And so we decided to come home, to the same homeland from which we were driven out 1,900 years earlier by a Roman world that, apparently, we also upset.

Alas, dear world, it appears that you are hard to please. Having left you and your Pogroms and Inquisitions and Crusades and Holocausts, having taken our leave of the general world to live alone in our own little state, we continue to upset you.

You are upset that we repress the Palestinians. You are deeply angered over the fact that we do not give up the lands of 1967, which are clearly the obstacle to peace in the Middle East. Moscow is upset and Washington is upset. The Arabs are upset and the gentle Egyptian moderates are upset.

Well, dear world, consider the reaction of a normal Jew from Israel. In 1920, 1921 and 1929, there were no territories of 1967 to impede peace between Jews and Arabs. Indeed, there was no Jewish State to upset anybody. Nevertheless, the same oppressed and repressed Palestinians slaughtered hundreds of Jews in Jerusalem, Jaffa, Safed and Hebron. Indeed, 67 Jews were slaughtered one day in Hebron in 1929.

Dear world, why did the Arabs - the Palestinians - massacre 67 Jews in one day in 1929? Could it have been their anger over Israeli aggression in 1967? And why were 510 Jewish men, women and children slaughtered in Arab riots in 1936-39? Was it because of Arab upset over 1967? And when you, World, proposed a U.N. Partition Plan in 1947 that would have created a Palestinian State alongside a tiny Israel and the Arabs cried and went to war and killed 6,000 Jews - was that upset stomach caused by the aggression of 1967? And, by the way, dear world, why did we not hear your cry of upset then?

The Palestinians who today kill Jews with explosives and fire bombs and stones are part of the same people who - when they had all the territories they now demand be given them for their state - attempted to drive the Jewish State into the sea. The same twisted faces, the same hate, the same cry of "idbah-al-yahud" - "Slaughter the Jews!" that we hear and see today, were seen and heard then. The same people, the same dream - destroy Israel.

What they failed to do yesterday, they dream of today - but we should not "repress" them. Dear world, you stood by the Holocaust and you stood by in 1948 as seven states launched a war that the Arab League proudly compared to the Mongol massacres. You stood by in 1967 as Nasser, wildly cheered by wild mobs in every Arab capital in the world, vowed to drive the Jews into the sea. And you would stand by tomorrow if Israel were facing extinction.

And since we know that the Arabs-Palestinians daily dream of that extinction, we will do everything possible to remain alive in our own land. If that bothers you, dear world, well - think of how many times in the past you bothered us.

In any event, dear world, if you are bothered by us, here is one Jew in Israel who could not care less.

This was written in 1988.

-Rudey

What the hell is that about? You can't respond to anything so instead you put links up? Yeah OK. Are you even Jewish? Why do you care if Jews are against Zionism??

Edited to add: I didn't comment on this before but the site you decided to post is a shame. It is a group of Ultra-religious Jews called the Satmars. The Satmars are known for essentially kidnapping Jews from other parts of the world - they bring them to America for example and promise them great things, they take away all their documents, force them to beg for money on street corners, erase their cultural identities (from middle eastern to European), take away their kids, and ruin them. They will attack you physically should you do something they don't agree with religiously - my friend, a male, was attacked for not having his shirt on. Among other strange things include taking cotton swabs sampling their wives' vaginas to an expert who will tell them their wives are clean and they can have sex with them. I have no remorse for any pain their neighborhoods suffer.

-Rudey

Wow. That website just made me change my mind.












NOT.

(okay, that was lame)

But seriously, what does that prove? There are MANY MORE Jewish scholars that would say the exact opposite. There are people in the world that staunchly support every position imaginable. That doesn't mean that they are right.

it doesnt mean they are wrong either.

They are wrong. Post what they have to say. Are you that damn stupid that you not only can't think on your own but that you can't copy and paste? Again, are you Jewish? Why do you care if there are Jews against Zionism?

-Rudey