Idaho Courthouse Floor Sports a Swastika
 

It is known as a symbol of hate. The Swastika was used decades ago as a symbol of the Nazi's rise to power in Germany.

One man hopes to rid a local county building of this symbol many people do not even know is there. Here is senior reporter Suzanne Hobbs.

Since 1952, Reginald Reeves has worked as an attorney in Idaho Falls. He has roamed the halls of the historic Bonneville County Courthouse all these years. And one thing has stood out as offensive: these Swastikas placed in the tile floor of the rotunda when it was first built, 83 years ago; around the time the national socialist party was formed, taking on the Swastika as its symbol.

Reginald Reeves: "The symbol is offensive, not just to people of Jewish ancestry, but to thinking people, and concerned people everywhere."

Despite all these years of asking for change, nothing permanent has been done. Reeves suggests the tiles be removed and placed in a local museum.

for full article see....

http://www.kpvi.com/index.cfm?page=n...s.cfm&ID=18681

They are actually NOT swastikas. What are now known as swastikas are seen the world over as symbols of GOOD LUCK. I saw them worked into the architecture in Washington DC, and those buildings were built long before Hitler was even born.

If you look at Navajo blankets you can see swastikas. But the direction of the Nazi use is opposite of one used by everyone else.

It is just sad that this symbol has been changed into one of hate and prejudice. But it is just as sad that people can't tell the difference and don't know the history.

Here is some information to read.

http://www.intelinet.org/swastika/swastika_intro.htm

ETA: They mention the world good luck connection IN the article, one has to wonder which direction those "swastikas" are facing. This man has won many awards for his good works, and I am sure he means well, but the cultural significance of a similar symbol should not be ignored. Why should people who have their own cultural ties be punished for some psycho, murdering dictator changing it?

I found another artcile saying it will be removed now.

http://www.localnews8.com/home/801912.html

Swastikas to be Taken Out of Courthouse
May 28, 2004

The Bonneville County Courthouse will soon be getting a new look. But you'll have to look close to see the change.

The county commissioners have been getting complaints that the tile in the courthouse is in the symbol of a swastika.

The court house was built in 1921, before Hitler was known in America. Commissioners tell us the swastika is actually a Hindu symbol, but they'll be changing it anyway.

They'll paint in one box to make the symbol four boxes instead.

“We decided just to change it rather than cause any heart ache or offend someone who might be offended," says Dave Radford, County Commissioner.

The courthouse is recognized as a national historic building.

**I pasted the article since they are acknowledging that is a national historic place, and it is a Hindu symbol. My favorite part is "offend someone who might be offended". WTH? I am surprised the Register of National Historical Places is going to let them do it. The Idaho reputation for harboring hate groups is in northern Idaho anyway, this place is way down near Wyoming, so it isn't as if there is a history there. **

Before WWII, the symbol of the 45th infantry (based in Oklahoma) was a swatztika. Back then, it was simply known as an indian symbol of good luck.

But yeah, considering what this symbol has come to mean, I think we can come up with some better decor.

It isn't the same symbol, swastikas face a different way. Instead of ripping up the floor, or painting over it, why not oh...educate people about it? It is only a symbol of hate when people are misinformed.

occam's razor?

Interesting to note that in Asian nations, the Swastika is not seen as a symbol of hate. I know in Bali, there is a hotel called the Swastika Bungalow.

While on one hand, I agree with you, on the other hand, if you've ever been to a courthouse (I'm in one almost daily), the types of people there aren't exactly the most educated folks around. You can try to "educate", but many of the people in the courthouse aren't the types that are willing to subject themselves to learning.

The courthouse is their courthouse as well though. A public building should be very sensitive of the public that frequents it. Maybe move the symbol to the floor of a county office or something, maybe you could move it to the bankruptcy court area :D, etc.. I just don't think anything that represents that part of history to some people (right or wrong) should be on public display.

It no longer matters what it was. Symbols, words, etc. take on different meanings in different contexts and with histories. It should be removed because really what purpose is it there for? Is it there to be an exhibit for Indians? No. Is it there as a decoration? Yes. Regardless it'll get removed.

-Rudey

I did some thinking about this, and I think they should leave the floor as is, and use the money that would have been used to remove it, to make an interactive educational tool to explain the differences between the two. There can be different aspects in the exhibit. People who experience will learn geography (all parts of the world that used this symbol), Arts & Crafts, American History (Native Americans), World History (the change of the symbol by Hitler), and hopefully with all that they will come away knowing what happened in WWII Germany, and why it "never again" is so important. By educating people it removes the hateful associations, and therefore the power is returned to those cultures that are being punished for Hitler changing it for his evil purposes. A similar turn around has been done with the gay community and the pink triangle. The pink triangle was used in Nazi Germany to identify sexual deviants, and is now a symbol that was used in the gay rights movement.

I also think, that removing symbols of other cultures, specifically Native North American cultures, is bigger problem. It may just be a floor in the Bonneville County Courthouse, but the symbol is in many other places. Should the Capitol Building in DC be next, or the Philadelphia Museum of Art? The article below mentions that historical pieces of these people are hidden away because of Hitler, and they stopped using that design because of him. Why keep letting his hate oppress the history and culture of people that lived here for thousands of years?

http://www.collectorsguide.com/fa/fa086.shtml

Sorta like blackface. "Come on people, these white kids just want to dress up like their favorite rappers. So what if it meant something else at one time."

-Rudey

Political correctness rearing up its ugly head yet again.

The Nazis co-opted the swastika as the emblem of their political party, though it had already been used as the emblem of the Ehrhardt Brigade (a far-right wing paramilitary corps (read: ass-kickers) in post-World War I Germany). Likewise, they also co-opted the Sieg rune - among others - as the emblem of the Jungvolk (the pre-Hitler Youth)and the SS. (One Sieg-rune for the Jungvolk, two for the SS. The latter insisted in referring to the SS using the twin Sieg-runes instead of the twin capital S on all typed and printed documents; German-made typewriters made during the Third Reich era actually included a key for the SS runes.)

More information on how the Nazis adopted the swastika: http://flagspot.net/flags/de193345.html - look on the link 'Origins of the Swastika flag'.

I agree with aurora_borealis in that they should put up some kind of a display explaining the historical origins of the swastika to inform people that NOT ALL swastikas are the root of unspeakable evil in the world. Unfortunately, the American people

I don't see people clamoring for the banning of the hammer-and-sickle as the symbol of Communism, even though to some it is a symbol that incites hate as much as the swastika. Originally, it meant to be a symbol of the workers and peasants uniting against capitalism, over time it became associated with Stalin's purges and later the 'Evil Empire'.

You gotta be kidding...the hammer and sickle is comparable to a swastika??

Hey Chuck, so tell me where your interests are because I want to understand what it is that moves you to educate others on what the swastika used to mean. Please tell me about it.

-Rudey

Before ANYONE gets ANY ideas twisted in their minds that I am a closet brown-shirted-goose-stepping-Nazi-lover, let me set a couple of things straight:

One of my interests is reading about history, specifically World War II and the Third Reich. What Adolf Hitler and his Nazis did to the world at large during World War II, especially to the Jews and anyone not meeting the 'Aryan' standard is a horrifying example of man's inhumanity to man.Never again should we sit complacently and watch someone impose his twisted will upon any country again. 'Know thine enemy' should be the watchword everyone should remember.

If German racial laws of the time applied to me, I wouldn't qualify as an 'Aryan', I'd be considered a 'bastard'. My membership in the Masonic Fraternity would have been enough to have been taken in for 'questioning' by the Gestapo. If I were a prominent Freemason (say, a Grand Lodge officer), it would have been a one-way trip to a concentration camp.

I grew up in a predominantly Jewish neighborhood in Miami, where it was common to see older people wearing concentration camp ID tattoos on their forearms. I've listened to first-hand experiences of concentration camp survivors; when I hear pathetic examples of 'revisionist' history claiming the Holocaust is a fabrication, my blood boils.

The point is that the Nazis didn't CREATE the swastika - they STOLE it.

Although ktsnake's right - in a courthouse, where anyone and everyone passes through (and often not in the best mood) keeping it there is just going to open a giant can of worms. If it was tile in someone's private office, that would be different.

Who called you a Nazi?

Chuck I asked where your interest is in educating people on what the swastika used to be. You read about history and WWII. Great. What is your interest in educating people on what the swastika used to be??

-Rudey

There is no valid equation of blackface and preNazi use of a changed swastika. Blackface was created as a way to humiliate a group. The original, swastika was used as a symbol of many cultures for thousands of years, and not to dehumanize or impersonate people.

It is only going to offend people if they are not given the history of the original image. Not only will they be able to realize the difference in the images, but also the groups that have negatively been affected will once again be able to have pride in their history.

And some say they are doing it now not to humiliate people. Why can't you follow the argument? It seems you often have that difficulty.

And on top of that nobody equated anything. Both are awful things and it seems that there are a ton of people who seem to all of a sudden call people PC, or take up a cause for no reason. What is your cause and interest in this?? Why are you so interested in people learning about the true history of the swastika? Please tell us. Tell me what it is that gets you to exert energy doing searches and coming on GC to provide these arguments.

-Rudey

I am not defending blackface, and I never will. There is no argument to follow, as the two are not the same. As I said, one was created for hate, the other had no association until Hitler. It is still not an identical image.

Why do I have an interest and a cause here?
1) I find it important to know history, and be informed. Without this I would be angry at the wrong thing. To know of the world and other people, places, and things, is power.

2) I spent a lot of time living with and studying Native American cultures. So many of these people have vanishing history. Why should their culture have to suffer and be hidden because someone else took a similar symbol and used it for hate? This isn't just Native American history, this is U.S. and World history.

3) I live in the Pacific Northwest. This is local architecture, and on the Register of National Historic Places. The building has been selected to be preserved, and since the symbol is not the exact same (and people won't ever know that it isn't unless they are educated), altering it is not going to aid in that education. Destroying a floor will not change the past.

4) There is an antique item in my family home with the original symbol that predates 1900. I grew up with first knowing this as a symbol of good luck, and then how it was changed to one of hate.

5) I am a firm believer in "never again". By talking about it and educating people, Never Again will be a reality. The power of hate is taken away.

There was no reason to erase my post and I said:
1) I didn't equate them
2) You have no interest or connection in it and are talking jibberish.
3) You have difficulty following a simple argument. Take that for what you will.
4) Also I never brought up my background (as you did in the post that was deleted), you did.

-Rudey
--Thank you genius moderator

oh my f-ing god . . . do you even read your own posts? This one has GOT to be a joke . . .

Arts and Crafts? Shut up, are you kidding me?



OK - you obviously didn't get my last, succinct, intellectually-dominating post . . . so here it is:

Occam's razor.

Education? EDUCATION? OK - you want to set up an interactive stand to promote learning about how an exceptionally minor symbol to a subset of the Native American population was subversed and made into the WORLD'S LARGEST REPRESENTATIVE SYMBOL FOR HATE.

This symbol played a large role in ONE OF THE LARGEST ACTS OF GENOCIDE EVER (yeah, I know about King Leopold, so I'll qualify it for your poor argumentation).

You want to turn what is essentially an anachronism on the floor of a backwater courthouse into something that will eliminate hate worldwide. Fine, how noble. But how obtuse is this reasoning? Jesus, it's just nonsense, it's idyllic tripe. Sorry, it's just garbage - why not just REMOVE the anachronism? I know that doesn't put you on the white stallion, and that must be disappointing . . . but for the love of everything holy, why would you even consider LEAVING a swastika . . . in a public building . . . to facilitate the possibility of some non sequitur discussion of a culture inherently unrelated to why the symbol is considered offensive?

So . . . Gregory de Ockham says, in short, the simplest solution is most likely the best.

In this case, as in most . . . it is overwhelmingly correct.

Arts and fucking crafts. Wow.

I wish you'd post more often. I smile when I see you on GC. Is that gay?

-Rudey

a wise man once told me, it's only gay if the balls touch

I am sorry that you don't agree with my opinion or ideas. I would be more open to discussion without the profanity and ad hominem attacks. If anyone would like to discuss the issue, without name calling, ridicule, and emotional pleas, I will be happy to discuss it.

I don't think continued misinformation and lack of knowledge on swastikas, nor the removal of preNazi swastikas is the best way to deal with the situation. It isn't "an exceptionally minor symbol to a subset of the Native American population", please research and realize it is not "exceptionally minor" to many groups of North America and the world. The symbol ceased to be the same once Hitler changed it for his purposes. It will only continue to be associated with hate, if there isn't education on the subject.

As for Arts & Crafts that was a general term to encompass decorative items that fall in that category. Blankets, masks, pottery, jewelry, and such, not for religious or spiritual purposes. If there is a better term, please let me know.

I accept this challenge, b/c I don't really think you have a realistic rock to stand on. Sorry.

This is quite simple:

The swastika will always continue to be a symbol of Nazi Germany. I do understand your point of it being 'flipped' over a horizontal axis - however, no amount of twisting, turning, or etc will remove the association with Nazi Germany. I don't get how you can profess the continued association with Native American symbolism, while downplaying the Nazi connotation (and, in fact, denotation) - I feel you're missing that key facet, which shows an implicit flaw in your reasoning.

Education is great, but it DOES NOT remove the connotative elements present to Jews worldwide.

Your argument about it being a 'completely different symbol' misses what has already been pointed out: sure, it's turned around, but it was directly taken from the original symbol. You cannot argue this fact; as such, the original symbol will carry any later connotation put on it - and, in fact, this will become DENOTATION.

It simplly has to go from any public building, out of respect for an entire culture - the antiparallel of your argument that it can be used to promote respect for a culture. Guess what? The former dominates the latter in terms of what is appropriate in public places. Sorry, but that's just how it has to be.

No better term is needed - I feel it indicative of the fatal flaw in your reasoning (and, in fact, your proposed solution):

It fails Occam's Razor utterly, completely, almost by definition.


Until you can address that key point, by showing how it overcomes the simplest solution (which I personally don't feel is possible), then you can argue until you're blue in the face, but it's still idyllic tripe.


PLEASE NOTE that terms like "Idyllic tripe" are NOT cuts on you, are NOT ad hominem attacks . . . it's still valid for argumentation purposes (especially for our, or rather your, purposes).

My boyfriend is Indian (from India, not Native American), and his parents have a lot of Indian artwork in their house, much of which has swastikas in it. It's not just "an exceptionally minor symbol to a subset of the Native American population," it has thousands of years worth of significance to many Asian cultures as well. Actually, "swastika" is a Sanskrit word. I had no idea of any of this until it was explained to me, and I agree with aurora_borealis that it is important for people to learn the full history of the symbol so that they don't jump to conclusions when they see it used in other contexts.