Religion and its role in Greek Organizations
 

I'm just curious to hear what others have to say about this issue. It seems to me that the vast majority of Greek Organizations have a close tie to religion. Let me throw out a scenario:

A GLO whose ritual is centered around Christian beliefs and concepts. An athiest/agnostic PNM wants to join. Certainly a conflict of interest. Has anyone encountered this sort of thing? In the everyday operations of your chapter, how big of a role does religion play? Do you pray before chapter meals? Is there an invocation and benediction (non-ritual) at gatherings or meetings?

I am not trying to start a thread where all people do is debate religion, so please don't turn it into that. I am just curious...

ETA: found a link that addresses this exact situation.
http://www.dailyaztec.com/Archive/Cu...ty/city03.html

In my fraternity, while there is mention of a Supreme Being in our rituals and traditions, we do not require a member or pledge to profess any allegiance to any specific religion or creed.

As a Freemason, along with the requirement in applying of my own free will and accord, I was also required to profess a belief in a Supreme Being (whether He is named God, Allah, or whatever the case may be); otherwise the obligations I took to become a Freemason would not have been binding upon myself. In all Masonic lodge meetings and initiations, prayer opens and closes each meeting.

As a Masonic Knight Templar, I took an obligation to defend the Christian religion to the preferment of others.

In the olden days (when my chapter had a traditional fraternity house) it was pretty common to offer Grace before the meal.

While I can only speak for LXA and Masonic Scotish Rite, I think and feel whether a Greek Organization will have some relegious conotation is the norm.

There were several Fraternal Fratenities and Soroities who were Founded under Jewish principles, most were started under Christian principles.

While these two religions were and are predominate there may have been others.

But in this day of Homogonizng, there is inter mingling of thoughts, races, and Ideals.

This is what Greek Organizatios can be in the fore front of doing.:cool:

Here's a question: Should ritual & tradition be changed to accomodate others?

I know several sororities (probably fraternities, too, I just don't know) were founded to be all inclusive, no matter what religion or ethnic origin. Others were founded on religion, others on ethnic origin.

At what point should ritual truly become homogenized? Should our founders be able to recognize the GLO they founded, or not? I'm certainly not pointing fingers, or giving my opinion (at least, at this point). I just thought I'd ask.

honeychile, yuo have raise a very valid point.

But, why should what has been done for things that were founded at a time of Yore have to be changed to accomadate instead of those who feel like joning not not change to belong?

Were/are there not many more before those who may/might want to belong to a certain Organization decide to join or not?

The individual is the one who must decide and then not want to change years of history from what has been done.

LXA over the years has changed many things, Pledging, Hazing, Ritual, Color and other Generes to make it more Politically Correct.


Is there a time to stop and take a stand?

Where does it all stop? Just being a person who is asking a question!:)

Jesus Christ is one of our exemplars, but then again so is Hermes. I don't think anyone thinks we are Hermes worshippers or anything - and everything that's ever talked about Jesus in our member materials says that many see Him as the Messiah, not that He IS the Messiah. Subtle difference, but it's there. I mean Jews don't believe Jesus didn't exist, they just don't believe He was the Messiah. I see using Jesus' words as no different than a quote from Moses or Socrates or anyone else that can apply.

More than ritual, I get very nervous about things like chapter bible study, sectarian prayers before meals etc. That kind of everyday stuff, IMO, goes much farther towards making people uncomfortable. It would be one thing if this was a Christian or Jewish or whatever religion sorority - but if someone joins what they think is a "mainstream" group and then come to find out that all the sisters have Bible study every Tuesday and go to church together every Sunday - even if it's not required, but if they just do it - that can lead to all kinds of problems.

As far as ritual is concerned...if your religion, or lack of same, is very important to you, research the GLOs on your campus before you pledge. If their motto is "Furthering the Christian community and sisterhood" an atheist probably shouldn't join. If it's that important to you, don't go in half-assed and then expect everything to change because it offends you.

I have to agree with Mr. Earp
 

If a particular organization was founded upon certain religious concepts, I don't feel as though that organization is obliged to change it's history (which is perhaps the most valued aspect of a GLO) in order to accomodate a select few. However, referring to the link that I posted above, I don't feel as though a member should ever be forced to compromise his/her own beliefs just to go along with "status quo."

Another perspective to look at is that of the "athiest/agnostic" individual. Should they follow through with ritual which requires them to affirm a belief in a Supreme being for the sake of not being given the boot, or at the least, not being ostracized by the other members?

Any first-hand experiences with this sort of situation?

HPU Pike,

Yes!

I am sure well maybe if Most Greek Organizations do or will not have any member who is being Intitiated in any Greek Organization, Pledge themselfs to a Certain Supreme Being.

While Founded on Certain Tenets, there is flexability.

That is why members are of different races and relegions belong to so many Organizations.

It does seem that some dont beleive that.

Religion
 

Delta Upsilon was founded as a nonsecret nonsectarian organization in 1834, to some extent DU was founded as a protest against secrecy and sectarianism in the secret orders of its day , DU's ritual did have reference to a supreme being in Rite 2 of the initiation ritual, but alternate language, dispensing totally with religion, was allowed by an amendment to the ritual in 1973.
So in sum DU is based more on ethical ideals common to the intellectual ferment of the transendentalist 1830's New England Intellectual Revival than religion.

The Four Ideals of DU are :

Te Advancement of Justice, The Promotion of Friendship,The Development of Character and The Diffusion of Liberal Culture.

aries, I thought you are Canadian?:D

Now, before We all go Waa Waa on on site, just take a deep Breath!:D

The Ideals that were started by Our Founders were for good purposes and beleifs.

Well, they must have beeen, there are many of us still here!;)

I agree with 33girl and ariesrising. As a non-Christian, I view references to Christianity as historical ones. It would bother me much more if my chapter was really into Christianity on a daily basis.

I have to admit that I am bothered by any situation where a belief in God is assumed to be "the default setting" though . . . for example, I would have never known that some fraternities insist that you believe in God in order to be initiated if it was not for GC -- and I doubt that that kind of thing comes up during rush. I feel for any kid who signs his bid card only to find out that in order to join the group he chose he either has to lie or convert ;).

I don't think we should be forced to change our rituals or anything else to accomodate people of all religious beliefs, but it would be nice if none of our members felt uncomfortable during ritual because of their religion or lack thereof.

There are many different GLOs to cater to different needs. I'm not aware of any NIC/NPC/NPHC group that currently has a religious membership requirement. If a non-Christian wants to join a Christian GLO, the GLO is obligated to at least explain that organization's history and culture in a way that is somewhat comforting.

According to a handful of GC members, Kappa Sigma requires a belief in a "higher power" to initiate.

I'm not sure if they're the only ones.

We say prayers at formal meetings. We had a strong Southern Baptist majority and a few catholic kids. If you do not believe in God, I would not judge a person or try to convince them otherwise. We had a few girls that would. I do not think there would be much of a problem objecting to not participating in prayer, but there would be resistence if someone tried to take away the tradition.

Being Catholic, I disagree with saying the endings of the lords prayer at formal meetings. The ending for the Catholic prayer and the one commonly used by protestants is very different. If you stop in the middle of the prayer, people notice and I feel stupid. However, if I have to feel stupid around anyone, my sisters are the best ones to do it around.

Also, our advisor who I love dearly is Jewish- I could not imagine how she felt. I am sure she has thicker skin than I do, growing up Jewish in the bible belt.

I always thought it would be awesome to add a prayer in Hebrew to the program or any other type of religion.

I wonder how many of their chapters actually enforce that rule.

While there is some Christian-specific religious symbolism within the traditions of my sorority, it never bothered me as a non-Christian. Like others, I keep it in a historial context. I found the rituals to actually be much closer to ones I'm religiously familiar with as a Pagan. :) There were times that I felt a bit out of sync with everyone, since Paganism wasn't as common a faith as it is these days... but all of my sisters respected me for my differences of beliefs (since I gave them the same respect back)

It would bother me if I had joined an organization and then, only after initiation, discovered that members were extremely strict about religious devotion. I'm sure this varies from chapter to chapter, depending on the region of the country.

~ Mel.

This isn't a GLO thing, but in high school, kids who considered themselves "non religious" would always just "tune out" in our mandatory daily chapel services. As long as they stood when they were supposed to and sat when they were supposed to, the faculty really didn't care.

I am agnostic and I looked at ritual as historic...

My chapter has many Christian Traditions. We pray before each regular meeting, we regularly have chapter church, and we have Pike Bible studies (optional, of course). Chapter church is a very positive thing in my eyes. We generally rotate among the many different Christian churches in the town. No one seems to have a problem with any of this, and I certainly don't because I'm a Christian myself. Of course, I am from the Bible Belt and,
Christianity is a very common thing here. Many of our members are not Christians, but no one has ever voiced complaints about any of these things.
I don't agree that ritual or other traditions should be forced to change just because some members do not agree with it. I think that GLO's are PRIVATE organizations, and the ACLU needs to butt out and let the members of the GLO's decide for themselves.

But what you described ISN'T ritual. It's something the chapter does. Do the members who aren't Christian attend church too? Are they active in the chapter in general?

Re: Religion and its role in Greek Organizations
 

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I'm Jewish, and while I have never felt "out of place" in my sorority, I can understand how she feels...I'm going to school in Alabama! :p

My question is, are there some Religions that dont beleive in a Supreme Being of some sorts, no matter what name it is called?

Or is it Aliens who populated the earth, or the decision to bring up the Scopes trial of which came first, Man or monkey?

Just curious!

Yes. Classical Buddhism, for one.

While in some of it's forms, Buddhism is somewhat "non-theistic" -- that is, noncommital about whether there is a Supreme Being -- it can also be atheistic. For example, I have heard the Dalai Lama teach that there is no God. In any event, the existence of a Supreme Being is somewhat irrelevent in classical Buddhism.

Questions: If a chapter served meals, could a Kosher Jew or a Muslim get out of having to pay for them if they could not eat the food?
Or prehaps they could serve a vegatarian option (i know a good few kosher people that will eat veggie meals out)

I know of several that do involve religion in ritual. Yes don't dare jump on me for that. Anyway, it's fine but I don't think people should hide it.

-Rudey

Okay, Buddah. I dont know alot about that religious beleif.

Who is Buddah and what are the beleifs?

Hell, I hope I can always try to learn.:)

Now, from what I understand about being Jewish, unless certain facits, Jewish people can eat anything as long as it is Kosher, which means blessed by a Rabbi. Well, maybe besides pork?

If I am wrong then help me and many others understand.

I heard Christians can eat anything as long as Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell bless the food. Is this true? Educate me if I'm wrong. Please.

-Rudey

We had a girl in my chapter that was strictly Kosher. I'm 99.9% sure she got a discounted price on our meal plan. Our cook served a variety of dishes every night so that the Kosher or vegetarian sisters didn't feel excluded from our lunches or dinners. If she made hamburgers, there were always veggie burgers offered as a substitute. She also had pastas and soups available.

Jews who eat a Kosher diet cannot eat shellfish, either.

Yes they can eat it if the meat is butchered by a Kosher butcher. In Raleigh, Kosher Jews order their meat from Atlanta and have it driven up by the company once a month. Some extremely orthodox Jews will only use Kosher milk products.

Also, for it to be "really kosher" Milk and Meat can never touch each other or eaten at the same time. You have to have two seperate counters, plates, glasses, utensils, etc... One for milk food and parve and one for meat. Some people make an exception for restaurants (about the plates and utensils) being that there is only ONE kosher deli in NC

I had a friend that got physically sick after she ate a cheeseburger for the first time in freshman year in college. (It was psychological of course). She was in a sorority and just ate the vegatarian courses and skipped the meat.

The laws of kashrut are complex and it's not a simple don't eat pork, don't mix beef/milk:

http://www.ou.org/kosher/primer.html

http://www.jewfaq.org/kashrut.htm

-Rudey

Not being Buddhist myself, I'm hesistant to try to give a concise answer about the teachings of Gautama Buddha or other buddhas (a person who has acheived a state of perfect enlightenment). I'll leave that to one of the Buddhists at GC or to some web research.

As to Kosher, it doesn't mean "blessed by a Rabbi." It means that the food satisfies Jewish dietary laws. That is, it is not forbidden (certain kinds of food are forbidden, such as pork and shellfish) and was slaughtered (in the case of meat) and prepared according the dietary laws. For example, cattle and poultry must be slaughtered in a way that minimizes suffering for the animal and that drains all blood from the animal. Also, meat and diary products cannot be prepared or eaten together. A kosher kitchen will have separate pots, pans, and dishes for diary and meat. The rabbi does not "bless" the food, he oversees the preparation and certifies that it has been prepared in accordance with the dietary laws.

ETA: Thanks for the very informative links, Rudey.

WOW
 

Rudey thank you, I did not have a clue to how intricat it all was!

Not to be mean or anything, but thank goodness I am Anglican.

It is much easier for me.:)

Live and Learn. I am sure, that it is much easier if you have grown up in a certain Faith!

You're probably not going to get any Kappa Sigs to comment on this on here...hopefully this doesn't sound rude, but I don't think it's anything that should be discussed on a public board.

Everyone goes to chapter church and is pretty active in the chapter. It's not the main focus of the chapter anyway, It's like once-a-month thing max. It's a really common thing at my school, most fraternities and sororites here have chapter church, but we are in the Bible Belt, and here pretty much everyone claims Christianity as their religion whether or not they're actually a religious at all.

Ritual speaking, I obviously can't comment on any of that.

Re: Religion
 

You boys were ahead of your time! I am VERY impressed.:)

Me at a Monastery


Here's me like 3 or 4 years ago volunteering at a Buddhist Monastery--I figure that gives me some amount of credit to answer the whole Buddhism thing.
I asked a monk what Buddha was considered--God or not--and he answered that he believed there were many types of 'gods.' He said that a god was pretty much anyone who could cause a very large number of people to change their actions and way of life. He noted that Bill Clinton was a god in that some emulated him, looked up to him, and that his life had a great effect on others (as you can see, the Eastern interpretation of a god is very different than in the West).
When you see a monk apparently praying before a statue of Buddha, he's not praying--he's meditating. The statue is kind of a tribute and maybe a helpful device along one's way to achieve meditation.
Next week, there will be a quiz.

Why join a GLO if you cannot fully embrace, or at least live with, its ideals and values?

RESEARCH is fundamental!