Today's battle in classrooms: Resegregation
 

LITTLE ROCK, Arkansas (CNN) -- Two black and two white students sit around a table at Central High School and speak in glowing terms about the racial climate and quality of education at their school -- the only working school designated a National Historic Site.

Little Rock's Central High is hallowed ground for America's civil rights activists. It became a flashpoint in 1957 when, three years after the U.S. Supreme Court ruled segregated schools unconstitutional, President Eisenhower dispatched paratroopers and federalized the state's National Guard to protect nine African-Americans selected to attend the high school.

"In my opinion, we all work closely together," says Richard Torrance, an African-American senior. "We communicate outside of school at events, at sports. Here at Central it's so large that you have to interact or you'll be alone."

But while Central High students sound upbeat about harmony in the hallways, legal and social activists warn that a problem from the past may return to the classrooms in Little Rock and the rest of the nation.

The percentage of white children enrolled in America's public schools -- 60 percent in 2001-2002 -- is 7 percentage points less than a decade before, according to the National Center for Education Statistics.

The Little Rock School District is increasingly becoming racially imbalanced as white parents enroll their children in private and suburban public schools in greater numbers each year. Little Rock's population is 55 percent white and 40 percent African-American. Black students, however, make up about 70 percent of the Little Rock School District's public classrooms, according to the 2000 U.S. Census.

for full article see....

http://www.cnn.com/2004/LAW/05/15/sc...ion/index.html

Re: Today's battle in classrooms: Resegregation
 

lol @ no responses.

You know what really pisses me off? Private school tax vouchers. That tax money goes to public schools. If people were less assholes about paying taxes, there would be a lot less problems. Taxes are a good thing. Taxes keep our military employed, they keep our roads paved, and they keep our schools from being substandard. When people stop paying school tax, the avereage student becomes dumber, and that makes us look bad as a country.

Question? Do parents who send their children to private school not pay taxes for schools?

Where I live education taxes are included in your property tax, so whether your child attends a public or private school everyone pays.

No, if you send your kids to private school you still pay public school tax. However, when people get vouchers I believe they come out of the school tax fund.

I hate vouchers too though, for what it's worth. It sends a terrible message to your child of "if something needs improvement, just walk away instead of trying to fix it." Not to mention that unless you are in a city it's totally farkin' useless - the only thing where I grew up that wasn't public was a Catholic school and I don't understand the concept of sending your kids to a school that is of a religion you don't practice (although apparently many parents do :rolleyes: :rolleyes: .)

Not if they get a voucher that equals the amount of taxes paid. If you pay X in school taxes and then get a voucher for X amount that you use to send you kid to private school, you paid nothing for the public school.

How do they determine who gets these vouchers?

I can only speak for Floriduh...
 

I think it's based on if a neighborhood school is considered failing, which they based on test scores. If a school "fails" for more than two consecutive years, and doesn't improve at all, the students' parents get the option of using vouchers.

This whole thing came about well after I graduated from HS, so I may be wrong.

Re: I can only speak for Floriduh...
 

Well if a school is considered failing, maybe they should look at the teachers instead of handing out vouchers.
Vouchers just don't sound right to me.

The thing is though, no amount of "fixing" is fixing these troubled schools. Why should a bright but underprivileged student have to suffer just because his parents can't afford to live in a better school zone?

Re: Re: I can only speak for Floriduh...
 

I don't agree with them either, and I didn't vote for them--but then again, I graduated from one of the state's best districts, so it was never an issue here.

School segregation still exists--now more in the form of socioeconomics than race. But it's segregation the same, with the same results.

I'm for vouchers if they can be applied equitably. In either Milwaukee or Cleveland, the vouchers had to be applied for and were then distributed on a lottery basis. Those who are eligible for the application have to make below a certain income level. If it is determined that kids would benefit from going to a different school, then it should be available for everyone in that income bracket - not just the ones who were lucky enough to know about the applications and then get picked out of the lottery.

Of course, the best answer is to improve the schools and a variety of other measures that won't be taking place anytime soon. I don't think there is a quick fix answer, but something needs to happen to change the future of the schools and education in general.

Because as I stated, in a LOT of areas of the country, the only private schools nearby are religion based, and I think it's BS that public $$$ be used to foster the teaching of religion.

And if you need to travel too far - I'm sorry, but I don't think that having to transport a 6 year old an hour one way every morning and every night contributes to his learning or his general health, no matter how damn good the school is when he gets there.

What I am trying to say is if you're in NYC or Chicago and there's zillions of schools one on top of the other it can maybe be beneficial - but other than that, it sucks.

I travelled an hour and a half each way to high school.

By the way vouchers only would help the wealthy and educated - the kind of folk who know their children will have more opportunities if they study and stay involved with their children.

-Rudey

Man that sucks!! Were you going from the city to the country or how? At that age I think it would be dealable - you can do homework and such - but the picture I have in mind is little kids over miles of farmland and BAD weather, cause that's what my hometown is like.

And I agree that vouchers mainly help the wealthy.

Vouchers only help the wealthy if they are given to everyone. Many of the voucher programs, however, are restricted to low-income families.

That's only true if the voucher amount is minimal, like a few thousand dollars. In NYC, the public education system spends, on average, over $12,000/student. If there was a $12,000 voucher, all would benefit, mostly the disadvantaged.

It's purely anecdotal, but I had a 45 minute commute each way every day because the schools in my neck of the woods didn't have programs for gifted/accelerated students. I would have been bored and unchallenged if I'd stayed in those schools, and G*d only knows what my life might've turned out like if I hadn't.

I think in some ways that the fight against vouchers is a middle-class luxury, meaning that middle-class people with access to better public or private education have the option of choice. If you ask families who live in underprivileged areas whether they'd like the chance to send their kids to better, safer schools where they'd get a better education, I'd wager that a majority would jump at the chance.

If I remember correctly, working class African-Americans are the group that most strongly supports vouchers.

This is a great program. As someone who generally speaking does not believe in new government programs, I think this is a great idea.

Here in Oklahoma, we have some amazing wastes of public money on schools. For example, in the vast majority of school districts, the superintendant is over only ONE school! We have over 500 school districts in this state. Superintendants draw 6 figure salaries and also have a staff that supports them.

That's just one example of how our tax dollars are in many cases wasted here. In Oklahoma, our teacher pay ranks either 49th or 50th in the US (can't remember which). Some of our school districts are failing. The Oklahoma City Public Schools are a nightmare. They are indeed segregated -- very few white kids attend these schools. Another problem is that in recent past, a bill was passed (a one-penny sales tax) that was supposed to refurbish our OKC schools. Politicians decided that instead, they were going to use a large chunk of that money to build a Bass Pro Shops store (yes, public money). Well, at least there's a place where our illiterate graduates can get $7.00/hr jobs.

Essentially, anyone who can afford it has their kids in a private or catholic school -- I drove 30-45 minutes two ways every day to attend a Catholic School because my parents are fairly well-to-do. I was lucky. Unfortunately, many of these kids are not so lucky -- most of them minorities.

Probably the most ironic thing about this is politically speaking the Dems are considered to be the "Party of minorities". In this instance, I think they are just taking the minority votes for granted. This is something that could *REALLY* help to level the playing field when it comes to being socioeconomically deprived and stuck in a bad educational system. The Dems were forced to choose between their constituents, the NEA (which donates $) and minorities, which I'm inferring either don't mean as much financially, or they are just being taken for granted.

Much of what I hear from minorities as far as complaints about inequality sound like whining. However, when it comes to schools, if a kid wants to have a good education, they should be afforded that opportunity! To stick them in a failing school and let them wither on the vine is cruel, unfair and sick. If they and their parents want to choose to use those vouchers to attend a religious school, fine. Catholic schools (and others) offer pretty damned good educations.

Much of what I hear from minorities as far as complaints about inequality sound like whining.

Spoken like a true non-minority.

I do not agree with voucher systems as I've seen them proposed here in Michigan. It didn't pass, but it wasn't going to be only available to the lower income families, they were going to be available to anybody. If they were equal in value to what the school district gets per student, then a family would still have to kick in $5000-$10,000 per year for private school tuition. They would also have to have the means to transport the child to the other school. All it would really do, the way it was proposed in Michigan, is take money away from the public schools and allow the upper level income families to get a big break on their private school tuition.

I also disapprove of being able to use tax dollars to support religious schools.

Our focus needs to be on improving the public schools so that all children truly get an equal shot at a good education AND on improving their neighborhoods (fighting crime, poverty, etc) so that other social issues that impair their ability to learn are eliminated or significantly reduced.

I do think that parental involvement and the parents values relating to education play a huge part in a child's success in school no matter what school district they are in and I don't know how you change that. Detroit Public Schools have a whole lot of problems but they also have some spectacular schools for the academically and artistically gifted. It would be a shame for those programs to deteriorate because the district gets less funding. Although there have been a lot of corrupt administrators who have misspent funds, that needs to be addressed and changed, not ignored with a plan to just get kids out of the district.

Dee

Our focus needs to be on improving the public schools so that all children truly get an equal shot at a good education AND on improving their neighborhoods (fighting crime, poverty, etc) so that other social issues that impair their ability to learn are eliminated or significantly reduced.

There ya go! I agree with this wholeheartedly.

So, a member of a minority group can't complain about inequality without being whiny? Why can't schools be improved instead of giving up on them with voucher programs?

I guess I, being a member of a minority group who went to one of the best public high schools in the state, a school that currently has alumni enrolled in each Ivy, MIT, Chicago, Stanford, Georgetown and Caltech--can't complain about how my less fortunate cousins don't have the access to the same education. They don't have that access because of the neighborhood I grew up in and the differences in what our fathers did for a living.

Basically, everyone--regardless of socioeconomic status--should have access to a quality public education. It should be our top priority. Instead, due to certain attitudes, we're just as segregated in some ways as before Brown v. Board.

Its not as simple as that. If someone offered me the choice between putting my children in a better school TOMORROW, and promising to 'improve' (the vaguest of terms) the public schools we have now so that theyll provide better education probably 5 years, maybe 3 years, no sooner than 2, I wouldnt hesitate to choose the former. Im not at all opposed to having a plan to make education better, but Im not sure if Id be willing to give up the option to do the best for my children ASAP.

Re: Re: I can only speak for Floriduh...
 

as a teacher who worked in a "failing" school for 2 years, i have to say it is not necessarily the teachers' faults. (it possibly could be in some cases though)

in most failling schools, you have single parents who work who either can't or don't work with their children at home. the children usually have less structure and support from home than the kids in passing schools. so a teacher can teach to the best of her ability, but if the parents either can't, don't or refuse to work with their kids at home, those kids won't succeed as much. that leads to lower standardized test scores which leads directly to failing schools.

i now work in a school where the parents are extremely supportive, as well as wealthy, and the differences in the strides the kids make with encouragement from home is astounding.

I know that some areas allow kids to attend any public school in the city providing that the out of area school has space. The only issue for this is transportation, which of course, can be pricey. There is a program in Toronto called Pathways to Education (http://www.pathewaystoeducation.ca) where kids from a low-income area get bus/subway tickets for attendance (in school..there is no high school in the area where this program is.). It's a great program, and the Junior League here is teaming up with them. Some of the ladies will be mentors to Grade 12 girls this September. Should be great :)

As a single mom, I'm feeling a little defensive but, I do want to point out that there other factors. I work with my kids, as does my ex and we have emphasized that school is the top priority for the kids. I'm very involved in the school, in close communication with their teachers, etc. But, I agree that there are far more factors than the ability of the teachers. If children aren't getting nutritious meals, if they aren't getting enough sleep, if they are dealing with emotional stressors (fear of drive by shootings, drug dealers and prostitutes on every corner to and from school), if their homes don't have heat or hot water or electricity, they definitely aren't in good shape to learn. Parental involvement is also key, but not all single parents drop the ball on this. In general, parents who are not educated, dropped out, etc. aren't placing as much importance on school either. It's not the teachers in most cases.

Dee

That is true, unfortunately. They just released elementary school rankings in Ontario, and the kids that scored the lowest were from lower income homes where the parents were not as well educated. Many of these schools are in rural areas, more than in urban areas.

The poor are not going to make education their priority. The poor schools will be filled with poor students with poor education until they get an education that is BETTER than someone that is rich to even put them on par.

I don't care if the voucher is for a million dollars, the parents that will care enough about their kid's education will not be the poor and they will not move their children to those other schools. In the meantime, those public schools were there were even a few parents that cared with some good students will become awful schools where no student or parent cares. So all you've done is expand the class divide and create a bunch of criminals that will break into my summer home and try and kill me.

-Rudey

Re: Re: Re: I can only speak for Floriduh...
 

Is all that really necessary? I never had any parent help with homework or stuff, nor any structure involving school and I aced everything.

And I had maxxed standardized test scores.

It wasn't hard at all.

Re: Re: Re: Re: I can only speak for Floriduh...
 

But were you encouraged to do well by your folks? What about the kids in your class?

What crime? I thought everyone in jail was innocent. Who is committing the crimes?


If the people living in those neighborhoods would start taking responsibility for themselves there woudn't be so many problems.

What I meant by whiny (maybe I should have been more specific) is people who complain and then expect other people to solve their problems for them.

It's really just whining anytime anyone complains without intending to do something about it.

I can tell you though, some schools are definitely beyond repair. They need completely new administrations, teaching staffs and in some cases parents and kids in order to allow their students a shot at succeeding. This isn't just in minority communities, but for socioeconomic reasons, it's occuring more often in minority communities. Rural white schools often have similar problems though.

If a school is failing -- and let's face it, just throwing more money at a problem is not going to fix it, the kids deserve to have an opportunity to go elsewhere IMMEDIATELY. Not wait for some government folks to come in there and start programs, etc. to try and make things better within 3 or 4 years. These kids need immediate help when they get forced into these situations. Nothing else is even remotely fair.

Without vouchers, we're basically going to doom kids to socioeconomic segregation (not necessarily racial). The kids whose parents are able to pay their tuition will have a shot at going to college while the kids in intercity public schools will often find themselves with few opportunities besides drugs and violence.

Co-sign. I think that was well-said. A lot of articles I read today on the state of education is the problem of socioeconomic segregation. Children need access to a "non-poor" environment. If a voucher allows them to do that and have immediate access to a better school, then by all means, let it happen. Of course, transportation and equitable access need to be addressed, but it can be done effectively.

Exactly. If the parents don't give enough of a rat's ass to make sure the kids are showing up to school to begin with, are they really going to care enough to investigate a voucher program?

If there are horrible students in your child's school, ruining the environment for the students who do want to succeed, encourage the school to start cracking down and expel those who need expelled. Now that everyone is entitled to an education, it seems like it's of little or no value to many people.

Do they still give out free TTC tickets.? I know they used to do that at Swansea P.S (my elementary school) which also happens to be the closest public school to Ontario housing. However, the Ontario housing complex is a 5 minute walk to schoo. Yet everyday I see little kids get on the bus to get off 2 stops away.
I know they stopped giving these kids free tickets because it was not necessary as they were in walking distance to the school.

The kids in the program are in high school, and get rewarded with TTC tickets for attending school and the Pathways program. Not sure what program the kids you're talking about are in though. Hmmmm...

School of choice within the public schools does allow kids to go to other public schools, which can get them out of a "poor" area and get them into a better district, although the way things are set up in Michigan, you still have to provide transportation (for which I see no other reasonable options, you can't have school buses travelling all over the metro Detroit area to pick up kids for school, it's too time intensive and costly). However, voucher systems use tax dollars to pay for private schools and I am totally against that. I am absolutely opposed to tax dollars paying for religious schools. And, as I said before, the amount of money allotted in a voucher still leaves a $5000-$10,000 bill for tuition. Few "poor" parents (few middle class parents even!) can afford that. They benefit only the rich who were going to send their kids to private school anyway. There are also charter schools out there, but again, transportation can be an issue. They often have a "theme" to them, a health care career orientation, auto-mechanic orientation, etc. I have no problem with this either. Charter schools and schools of choice are better options than a voucher system.

Dee