This Is Interesting
 

dailyillini.com/news/2044

I'm going to say it...is he retarded????!!!

He's been a member for two and a half years!!!!! He should have asked and at first mention of anything religious he should have left if it was that offensive to him.

This really irritates me. If the ritual didn't mean anything to him he should never have joined or he should have left. Now after 2 and a half years he wants to sue them for violating his civil liberties?!

I'm not religious and I find it extremely offensive when the Jehova's (sp?) Witnesses come knocking on my door first thing in the morning to talk to me about saving my soul. But I'm not going to sue them.

What this kid needs is a good swift kick in the arse!

I'm pretty sure he never knew the ritual before he initiated, and then, well, it's kind of too late.

I doubt this lawsuit will make it past an initial hearing because he didn't have to join Sigma Phi Epsilon, and at any time he was free to turn in his badge.

What I do find interesting, though, is that the kid pledged a fraternity founded by 12 divinity students. What on earth possessed him to think there would be no religion in their ritual?

That's true.

But I still think he's a moron.

He may have not known the ritual before he initiated, but the article says he's been a member for two and a half years! Once he initiated, why did he keep quiet for two whole years before he suddenly got offended? Was it not offensive to him then?

Even without that, there must have been plenty of other signs of religion, such as what you mentioned, GeekyPenguin, about the founders, and he could have found out these things before he initiated. I found this quote by one of Sig Ep's founders on their website, that states:
"This fraternity will be different, it will be based on the love of God and the principle of peace through brotherhood..."
C'mon here. Based on the LOVE OF GOD. There's a pretty big clue right there.

It's a sad situation that this guy had to resign, but (just from the article) it seems like he may not have taken enough steps to try to work it out before resigning. It sounds like he just started skipping ritual without letting anyone know why until they disciplined him for it. Had he spoken with the rest of the exec board and tried to work something out, they most likely would have been more understanding, and let him participate in ritual without him having to hold the Bible. It could have been worked out better for everyone involved. He's silly to try to sue.

12 divinity students, eh?

Yeah, he's an idiot. Looking at my chapter right now as an alum though, maybe he's just immature. He didn't do his job as VP and now he's looking to blame the consequences on anyone but himself.

Maybe his parents should force him to get a job. I mean.. he went to the ACLU over *voluntarily* resigning from a private organization. If the ACLU even wants to waste its time with this, the case will go nowhere.

Correct me if I'm wrong in this assumption, but aren't most fraternity and sorority rituals religious in context? I mean I know ours are, but we were also founded in 1851 and religion was a very big part of peoples lives back then, so it's like a no brainer to assume that some our rituals might be religious in context.

I think this person is a total moron. Let's be a member for two and a half years but once I get a "high" position, I'm suddenly offended. As if he didn't know about these religious rituals prior.

The ACLU is pretty stupid for wasting their time on a lawsuit that isn't going to go anywhere.

As someone else said, he did not have to join nor did he have to remain a member once he was initiated and discovered the 'religious rituals'.

I wonder if fingerbang or josh80 know this guy......I don't

Well, correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the article say that he had only "contacted" the ACLU -- nothing about whether or not the ACLU laughed him off the phone.

I wont say that this person is a Moron even though it does come to mind!:rolleyes:

For god sake, He was not taught about The Fraternity before He was initiated or what? Then, he holds a National position, maybe Moron is more right than I thought!:rolleyes:

Then, He wants to Sue? Idiot also sounds good along with Moron!

He was the Vice President of Programming for his chapter. He never hold any National position.

I'm reading the article as he got offended for having to participate in the rituals...Granted he would have somewhat participated during his first two years, but it sounds like as VP of Programming, his specific job during ritual was to read something from the bible, etc. As a member without an office, he most likely just had to "stand there" in the crowd...meaning he could "tune out" the religious parts on his own.

So here's my question: If he'd seen ritual for two and a half years, and knew which chapter officer was to perform which part of ritual, WHY did he run for the office that would offend him the most???? If he wanted to work with chapter programming, he could have been the VP Programming's "right hand man" and do a lot of work that way without having to mess with the ritual. He should have run for the position that simply told the secrets or opened the door during ritual (something "non offensive" to him).

I'm sure during officer inductions he took an oath saying he understood all the responsibilities of the office and agreed to follow all of them.

I agree with ktsnake....I think the religion thing is an excuse for his failing to fulfil the officer responsibilities. He could have always talked with someone or resigned the position if he didn't want to do the ritual part of the job.

PsychTau

moe.ron, my bad, did not read it and took your post as what I saw posted! Regardless, where was this guys head! Now he complains ignorance?

Give me a Break, if any Legals are looking and reading it, no one will take it unless they are Meat Wagon Chasers! Ambulance is to big a word to spell!:D

If I was a lawyer with scrupples I would look at this KID and ask, "Are You Out Of YOur Friggen Mind":eek:

Everyone has their right to what they believe in. As brothers of the fraternity, I'm sure they would have worked something out with him though. I agree that with his founders being divinity students and the statement about God on their website, he should have known. I don't say or stand for the pledge of alligence, but my chapter knows that and they know why. If that ever comes up they know I stay seated, those are my beliefs and they respect that. If he had such a problem, he should have discussed it with the chapter and I'm sure they could have worked something out...someone else could have done his parts in rituals.

Yes, no on disagreed with what His beleifs are, just how He went about it! This was nothing new to him. He had his choice, belong or not belong!:o

Now, He wants to Sue??? Paleeze!:eek:

Again, my question if you do not beleive in what That Greek Organion beleives in, then why did you join?

Usually, if someone Joins a Greek or anyother type of Fraternal Group, you are in not for just an Ounce, but a Pound or why did you or anyone else join?

This speaks volumes about the need to prepare PNMS and new members for the ritual. It's not just a set of grips, whistles and words. It's the basic principles of the organization. Had this member been given a better indication of what to expect, he would not have chosen this org.

i go to SDSU and am actually quite good friends with the president of Sig Ep, the chapter that we are discussing. Although i dont think that i know the kid by name, im sure i would recognize him if i saw him. from what i understand, i may be wrong, he felt pressured into taking part in the ritual of his chapter. Being a fellow president, i know that if someone ever came to me and said they felt uncomfortable with the ritual, i would not pressure or try to convine someone otherwise. we all join fraternities for our own reasons, and even though many are religious based, many people do join for other reasons, and not agreeing with the ritual should not be something that turns you away from the chapter. The sig eps here at state are a great group of guys with a clean track record, and im sure if this guy approached their president, he would have been more than happy to make his brother feel more comfortable. By suing the chapter, he not only brings unwanted attention to a group of guys im sure he still has some feelings for, but makes the whole thing look like a stupid ploy to get some money.

I would agree if the person is a NIB. However, this person had 2.5 years experience as an active under his belt. He knew what the ritual look like and knew what it involved. Ignorance is not even in the equation for this person. It looks more like he is incompentence and are trying to pass the blame for his shortcomming on something else.

Fingerbang,

I'm going out on a limb and speculating here.....but maybe the "pressure" came from the fact that it's his job as VP-P to read from the bible during ritual. So maybe it came down to him not doing his job and if he didn't want to do the job, then he didn't need to be the VP-P. If he approached anyone in the chapter about it, that might have been the first thing they said, which he's now calling "forced" and "pressure".

Seems like they could have worked something out, but neither he nor the president mentioned that they tried to, so it probably didn't happen. Life lesson for him....don't think people can read your mind. You gotta speak up.

I don't see how they successfully forced him to participate in ritual when he could have resigned his VP position at any time, or just not attend ritual (which he apparently did that). I think the threat of "physical violence" is trumped up or blown out of proportion.

That's just my speculation...
PsychTau

I would really have to disagree. I do understand that people join GLOs for many reasons... but ritual is what my sorority is about. If a non-Christian woman was to join Phi Mu, she could adapt it in her own mind to conform more closely to her own religious beliefs. But if she completely disagreed with it and refused to participate... I would not want her in my chapter. What's the point, really?

But in order for this to be true, I think we would need to make our rituals public.

You can't really say, "Don't join my organization if you don't agree with the principles that it was founded upon . . . but I can't tell what those principles are until after you join."

As Kath said earlier, in many cases there are clues, but you can't make assumptions. I didn't realize how common religion in ritual was until a while after my initiation. There are a lot of students who join sororities or fraternities without even understanding that they involve ritual at all!

I think that, generally speaking, we must either:
1) make it more clear that our rituals do involve Christianity or religious references or Judaism or whatever your particular ritual involves -- many national websites, pledge manuals, etc. downplay this because they don't want to scare off potential rushees
2) offer a modified non-religious version of the ritual for those who object
or 3) accept that these kinds of things will happen and that we will probably lose some potential members (or, like in this case, initiated members) because of it.

Anyway, as for this particular case . . . I wonder what Sig Ep's national stance on this is? I.e., do they offer a modified religion-light ritual for those who request it? I don't think that this guy was particularly wrong to join the fraternity when he didn't agree with the religious nature of the rituals, but I have to agree with those of you who questioned why he ran for VP Programming if he knew he wouldn't be able to perform all the duties that office requires? Isn't that kind of like, I don't know, having a VP Finance who doesn't know how to add and subtract? ;)

The dude is a dumbass..

But is saying that our ritual may have religious conotations really bringing any secrets out? In any case, most organizations founded in the late 19th and early 20th century would probably have some religious aspects to it even if they claim not to.

Personally I think it's kind of shady if ANY organization is saying "We don't have religious references in our ritual" when in reality they do, but that's just me. Fortunately I don't think I've seen that happen yet . . . the closest thing is when people refuse to comment on whether or not the ritual involves religion.

All I'm saying is that it's not exactly fair to say, "You can't join our GLO unless you agree with our ritual, but we aren't going to tell you what you're agreeing to until after you've joined." That doesn't make sense to anyone. And I'm not just talking about religion, although I think that seems to come under fire the most because not all of our members are religious while our other principles tend to be things that people usually strive for anyway (friendship, knowledge, truth, beauty, etc.). Let's say your organization's principles are brotherhood and knowledge -- you can reasonably assume that nobody in your fraternity is going to object to those principles because, generally, somebody who's joining a frat is going to be into the brotherhood thing and HOPEFULLY somebody who's in college is going to have at least a basic degree of respect for knowledge and education. However, if your organization was founded to promote brotherhood, knowledge and the love of chocolate chip cookies, you've got to realize that there are probably some people, though not many, who don't love chocolate chip cookies. And if you don't TELL your potential members that they have to love chocolate chip cookies to join your GLO until they've started pledging (or worse yet, in the middle of initiation) -- well, that's not exactly fair.

I think the problem is that too many GLOs are afraid to mention religious overtones in ritual because they're afraid they'll scare people off. I'm not sure about fraternities, but check out the NPC sorority websites. Some will mention their religious roots, but how many mention the religious content of their ritual? Or more accurately, how many mention the religious content of their ritual prominently? Do most of our chapters talk about that during rush? I'm sure there are many chapters out there who don't even discuss it during the pledge period, so that girls are surprised when all of sudden their ritual chair starts talking about Jesus's love for humanity in the middle of initiation.

Basically, I think that if the religion is an important part of your GLO's ritual, you need to make that apparent to rushees and pledges. It's almost as if some organizations are trying to trick non-religious (or non-Christian) members into joining by not mentioning the importance of religion or faith until they're already in the middle of initiation, or just before. We either need to make it clear that religion IS an important part of some of our organizations before these people join and that if they disagree with that, they'd best go somewhere else . . . or we need to cater to them and offer modified non-Christian/non-religious rituals. It's not fair to hit them with the "Surprise! JESUS LOVES YOU AND YOU MUST LOVE JESUS . . . or else!" thing after they've already made a commitment to your organization.

While I can only talk about miy Ritual, well of course I wont! Is it Historically Related to many things from the members or Founders of LXA so were most.

While I am just guessing, most if not All Greeks were based on Religious Precepts and rightly so from The Members. who Founded ezch of us!

Remember also, there were some Greek Organizations that were Founded for the Jewish Faith, but to day, they are changed and accept anyone one as most Christian based Organizations do!

Idiot, well I dont know, dumb, now tht is another thing!:(

Kappa Sigma is very clear. Unless you profess a belief in a higher power you can't join. Pure and simple.

Which means you either have to tuly beilieve it, or at least go along with it.

I would very surpised if others groups don't pre-clear their people in the same way.

I mostly agree with you. I would never, ever consider #2 to be acceptable (although I cannot speak for all of Phi Mu). But I feel that we cover our bases in #1, and I can't imagine that others don't! Before pledging AND Initiation, I (as the New Mem. Educator) ask our Phis if they feel comfortable placing their hand on a Bible and making references to God. Although I do not want to let them know what our ritual is, I don't see a problem with letting them know that it is religious with a Christian slant.

I think it would be inappropriate to talk about those types of things during Recruitment, but I think the dicussion should have a definite place in the new member period, particularly before they are initiated. If we are going to lose new members, I'd rather lose them BEFORE Initiation, then afterward in a situation like this.

I remember our ritual chair asking us those questions, but none of us had a problem so we went on as scheduled. But what happens when somebody says "Yes, I do have a problem"? im just curious

Wow... I don't know. It's never happened to me either. I guess if it happened with one of my Phis, I would clarify exactly what she had a problem with and try to come up with a solution. If it was a problem with the hand on the Bible, we could probably do something to remedy the situation and keep going. But if it was a problem with the total references to God or religion... I would probably get a little more specific with her in private about what would be expected, and tell her she would have to decide whether or not she wanted to continue. Honestly, I would have difficulty encouraging someone who did not believe in God AT ALL to continue and be initiated into Phi Mu... especially considering we have a formal ritual meeting once a month. It's not something you can skip or get around or avoid until Initiation time.

modified initiation
 

I am jewish, as is a large percentage of my chapter. (I think 40-50% of the freshman class this year at Wash U is jewish)

Anyway, at one of our pre-initiation nights, the new member eds mentioned that there is a part in our initiation that has us put our hand on a bible.. she said if any of us are not comfortable with that to let her know and they will not use the bible for us.. I probably would have gone along with it and not been offended (as long as they didnt have me swear my loyalty to Jesus or something) but since a bunch of my friends requested not to have the bible used for them, I did the same. I liked the fact that they warned us in advance that initiation would have religious undertones or whatnot, and I think it was very nice that they went out of their way to make sure people were comfortable.

I don't know if it's my sorority or my chapter (or my region?) but religious is not stressed at all in my chapter..

Hold up, what you are saying IS a version of #2. You modify the ritual just a bit to make others comfortable.

I was a very Jewish president of my Phi Mu chapter, and I never once placed my hand on a bible. See how easy that is?

Also, our open creed gives girls a pretty good idea of the fact that our ritual is based in Judeo-Christian tradition, and includes several references to god. Long before initiation, you can decide if you are comfortable with that or not. If you are not, you can omit phrases and still be a Phi Mu pledging herself to love, honor, and truth.

"Hold up, what you are saying IS a version of #2. You modify the ritual just a bit to make others comfortable."

I never said it wasn't a version of "#2"

"I was a very Jewish president of my Phi Mu chapter, and I never once placed my hand on a bible. See how easy that is?"

agreed

"Also, our open creed gives girls a pretty good idea of the fact that our ritual is based in Judeo-Christian tradition, and includes several references to god. Long before initiation, you can decide if you are comfortable with that or not. If you are not, you can omit phrases and still be a Phi Mu pledging herself to love, honor, and truth."

I honestly had no idea about the religion aspect until the week before initiation.. and I really dont have a problem with anything -- I think they handled everything wonderfully. I believe in everything Pi Beta Phi stands for, I just am not christian

I'm not particualrly religious, but it is plain in ADPi that religion was a big influence on our founders just by the "open" information. Our creed professes the ideal of Christian Womanhood and the 15th psalm is our offical psalm. But, maybe it was just my chapter, I never felt uncomfortable with it. A large amount of importance was never placed on religious belief, but it was explained to us that religion was very important to our founders and was therefore reflected in our traditions.
I do know some chapters are bigger on it than others, in my chapter the Chaplain pretty much just kept track of the ritual stuff but in some chapters she is also responsible for setting up bible studys and taking prayer requests

very very cool... love honor and truth are what it is about ... thanks!

Well, guess what. Sometimes people are stupid.


I hope I'm not revealing too much here, but I'm going to come right out and say that any and all references to God/Jesus/higher power in my sorority's ritual are strictly optional. Headquarters tells chapters that we are to decide on an individual basis. They understand, and I am in full agreement with them here, that collegiate women come from all different backgrounds and religions (or lack thereof) and shouldn't feel excluded just because they don't hold the big JC to be their personal saviour.

My guess is that my chapter would be in for quite a surprise if someone busted out with a reading from the King James Bible in the middle of Initiation. No doubt half of us would have walked out. I know I would have.

Anyway, my point is that the demographic varies so broadly from chapter to chapter that it's hard to make this stuff work for everyone. I think that GLOs that aren't specifically religious in nature should work in this kind of religious option, or else really insist to each chapter that New Members be informed of the religious aspect to the ritual. It's silly and outdated to be telling people that they need to either "truly believe it, or at least go along with it", when the "it" we're talking about is stuff that was made up by a bunch of college kids in the 19th century, who were dealing with a fundamentally different demographic.

Sorry, that is the problem with not quoting. I was referring to CC, who said that modifying the ritual was unacceptable, and then said that women were asked if they would place their hand on the bible. I was just pointing out that I consider that a modification, and it has worked very well in my chapter.

You know... you are right. I hadn't really considered that a modification of the ritual, but it is. When "modification" was mentioned, I think I imagined something much more drastic.

I also agree that Phi Mu is a little different than many sororities... God is mentioned openly in the Creed and it would very difficult for new members not to know that religion is involved.

However... I am not entirely convinced that Love, Honor and Truth is what it's ALL about. I think women of all religions could be happy in Phi Mu; it makes me glad to hear that as a Jewish sister, it's worked out for you. But I can't imagine someone who was atheist or otherwise had very little belief in any type of higher being feeling comfortable in Phi Mu. Like I've stated before, I can't speak for all Phi Mus, but that's my own take on the situation.

i would urge our collegiate g.c.er's
 

to clear it with their national office before modifying their rituals. the one thing in common that each chapter has with each other sister or brother chapter of their sorority/fraternity is the ritual, which most likely hasn't changed since it was written. your national officers might not be too happy to learn that ritual was being adapted or modified to fit the occasion. if your national organization encourages your to modify as need be, then go for it!

Our open motto is "Hellenic Culture and Christian Ideals", which will clue anyone off the bat that the founders of Chi Omega were Christian, and incorperated Christianity into the fraternity. However, I believe that we should be able to incorperate students of ALL backgrounds, and if someone is uncomfortable, I would rather keep the member than the exact ritual (because, lets face it, if a few people don't put their hands on a bible, it isn't a big deal!).
When I was pldege educator, I was alwas on the lookout for students who weren't comfortable with religious parts, and I always offered them alternatives (you don't have to say the word God, you don't have to do anything that makes you uncomfortable, you have a choice... etc). I think that in order to really be open to members with different backgrounds we have to take these considerations into account.