unaccredited schools
 

these days the accreditation agencies have caved in and given the nod to "schools" located in shopping centers, "Universities"
without walls (computer based), and all sorts of means to obtain
a diploma (or what some call erroneously a degree)
In 1947, thru an absorption of Alpha Lambda Tau, a southern fraternity, by TKE, a chapter at Tri-State College, an engineering-
oriented school in Angola, IN, was chartered as Beta Epsilon of TKE. But the NIC, noting that Tri-State was not accredited by a regional agency, demanded that TKE revoke the charter if they wanted to remain in the National Interfraternity Conference.
The subsequent conclave of the fraternity was very emotional and
the Beta Epsilon chapter charter was withdrawn. A poignant occasion. Well, about twenty years later the college gained full accreditation...and the locals all went "national." It is interesting
to note that the old TKE went Kappa Sig. TKE did return the charter to Tri State, but to a different group...
Several non-NIC groups, national in scope, had chapters at non-accredited schools...Kappa Sigma Kappa, Delta Kappa, Alpha Gamma Upsilon...to name some...are all gone now. Some of their
chapters disaffiliated with the "national" and some joined NIC ones (see a Baird's Manual for details). I do not know if any of these exist today...perhaps someone here does...another chapter
of the greek history...today, well, it is a whole new ball game.

While many may disagree with EConard, He does have valid points! Do I agree with Him, yes I do as I am just like him, of the Old School. He has seen as I have over these many years of the dilutiuon, reduction, deCharterized from Many Schools, maybe for valid reasons of course. Why, because they as Chapters of Greek Organizations acted in a Stupid Manner.

It is not maybe so much or maybe it is of the Ideals Of The Founders of Our Groups as to waht it has evolved into. Would they be appalled, Yes, I am sure they would.

Are We living in a Utopia of what We feel GreekDom should be and are being appalled by the Actions of a Few who make All Of Us Look like deginerates of the worst kind!

Should Greek Organizations go to Clown Schools, Cooking Schools, etc. Are We really that hard up:confused:

Are we dischartered by schools who find the actions by a few to be detrimental by all of us? Yes, and that is exatly what is happening.

Anyone Remember Alfred U. im NY?

More power to 'em if they want to start a chapter at the University of Phoenix. However, any group that did such a thing would not give its members the same experience that they'd recieve at a normal 4-year school.

I don't see a problem with it really. A GLO chapter at a commuter school isn't going to give the same experience that the same GLO's chapter would at a large state school with 200 member chapters.

If they can make it work, why not?

Check this situation out. At Kettering, Sigma Nu has two chapters -- A section and B section. Kettering is an engineering school where the students go to school for a semester and then work in internship type positions for the second semester. A-section and B-section on the same campus never see eachother. They probably meet at alumni functions and that's about it.

In fact, B section just recolonized while A section had existed all along. This is an example of a major NIC fraternity making it work in a nontraditional setting. I've met members from this chapter (B-section) and am proud to call them my brothers.

unaccredited schools
 

You are kinda preachin' to the choir. I have been a member of
the TKE extension committee since 1956. I started 17 TKE chapters. TKE was the pioneer NIC fraternity at what were the
old teachers colleges (like Edmond) and later became state U's.
There was a lot of resistence upon national fraternities entering
the ag schools a century ago, and the scientific ones later, and
then the teachers' colleges, the technical schools, the extension
and commuter ones...hardly "ivied" settings...You might also note
TKE pioneered the junior college entries...quite a disaster.
BUT...we have gone too far...at least from the perspective of the
"Greek" experience when we are talking about commuter, shopping mall and inverted mineshaft chapters, not to speak of the computer-oriented educations from home. Besides, there is
very little interest from these type students--of all ages--as we'd
want in our chapters. TKE has been to a lot of them, and most
were hardly successful, numerically and financially. We have a lot
of dead ones to prove that point. Most of these schools I speak
of are not concerned with tradition, alumni, or socializing. I'm not
saying there is no place for them, nor am I saying Sigma Nu can't
charter there....but count my outfit out, been there, done that.
While I am an avid expansionist, I do think there are limits and a
goodly number of those already in college do not belong there.
The University of Phoenix is simply the flagship of the demise of
the college as we have known it. And, having taught some of the
so-called classes these types offer, I can surely state that theyre
a far cry from what we cherish and call a well-rounded education.
In fact, most are a short-cut, a drive thru, a microwave attempt at
providing an ersatz diploma and calling it a degree....
I have an earned PhD from the U of OK with a 3.91 g.p.a.
I have been to Edmond and it is a good example of the deviation
from the traditional to the urban...

Maybe something like GLOs is just what these type of schools need it may help student morale. I know even if I was a nontraditional student having something like that avaliable to me might be pretty cool. My mom has just returned to schoold for a special certification and I know she was looking foward to maybe meeting some new people and it hasn't happened... maybe if they had some sort of organizations at non traditional schools it would help...not necessarily a NPC or NIC org... but something I think would benefit these students... I mean even at my "traditional" 4 year state university (which is pretty much a commuter campus) with generally traditionally college age students... sororities help a lot of people feel more happy with the school that doesn't really have much school spirit... or anything...

"non-traditional" greeks
 

I think these other-than-traditional-approach schools would be a
natural for Beta Sigma Phi, Epsilon Sigma Alpha, and others I do
not know of...many of these institutions or identities have older
and more mature students...and they would not be enthusiastic
about barfing on the Beta porch, or tee-pee ing the Pikes.
There is very likely a need to fill here...and it is not realistic to think Chi Psi, Zete or Deke will eagerly pursue much less the sweethearts of Ole Miss....LOL...

Re: unaccredited schools
 

I feel E P Conard completely over-generalized when it comes to the Greek experience at commuter schools. Hopefully I misinterpreted it because I found it quite obnoxious. To group commuter schools with shopping mall chapters and inverted mine shafts shows your own ignorance of commuter schools and their often excellent academics.

I go to a commuter school which has an excellent academic reputation (better than many traditional schools) and most of my fellow students attend our commuter school not because of their inability to gain admittance elsewhere but instead because they were unable to bare the financial burdens of away schools or, for their own reasons, they wanted to stay home.

As for my Greek experience at a commuter school, yes it is different from most but I wouldn't trade it for anything in the world. While many will see a million disadvantages for greeks at commuter schools, I have a type of bond with my sisters that I cannot imagine having if I had attended an away school. I don't just know my sisters, I know their whole families. When my sisters graduate they don't move back to homes which could be hundreds of miles away, most of them are still here in Brooklyn. On a weekly basis I see alumni from my chapter and other chapters on my campus who graduated as long as 4 or 5 years ago. Recently sisters' grandparents have passed away and another Greek's father passed away. They didn't have to go home and face this alone. They were already home and the whole chapter was there to support them. And while sharing this bond we did well in school, maintained scholarships and participated in other extracurriculars.

Re: Re: unaccredited schools
 

CO-Sign

Commuter schools if I understand it correctly are mainly Large City Schools where there are No Houses for the Greek Organizations to stay in as the costs are to high. Many live close, go to school and then go home.

If this is correct, then yes it is hard for Greek Organizations to normaly thrive. Greek Organizations thrive on having a place to meet for social functions or just to relax and be with fellow members.

Say if you live in New York and Your College is in Manhattan in a high rise office building, then why do you need a Greek Organization when the students all leave THE Building and go home to the burbs?

I think what Erik is asking, what kind of association is that when you never see anyone you are a Member with.

If you can fill me in I would be very happy to find more out!:cool:

Is this like DeVry, School of Pheniox or other types of schools of the same ilk? (GENRE) before anyone gets upset!

I also went to a commuter school. More then 70% of the campus commute to school. As you guessed it, 30% live on campus.

I will also co-sign what AEPhiSierra said about commuter school.

A commuter school (which I have (and really do) attended) is not an unaccredited school.

A commuter school is one where the majority of students live at home and "commute" to school, just like one commutes to work. Example: Only 41% of students live on/near campus at UW-Whitewater, an accredited 4 year school in the University of Wisconsin system. This school has Greek housing (including your own LXA, Tom, as well as TKE, DX, Pike, and several others) and is nothing like an unaccredited school whatsoever.

Many organizations have been very successful without being housed, and continue to be. A house is not a requirement to be a Greek organization in every situation. Sure, at Alabama or Wisconsin or Clemson you would need a house to be competitive, but at a smaller state or private school, they're unnecessary.

I agree - just because a school is a "commuter" school does not mean it's unaccredited.

Are you thinking of distance learning or "virtual" schools? In which case why would a GLO charter there?

well while I wouldn't put my 4 year regularly accredited university on the same level as U of Phoenix since the students are most likely of a different demographic...but I can say that although people may commute to school they still want to feel like a part of the school... they still want to have friends to hang out with when they have a break... high school friends may be away at school, so when they do travel home they want someone to talk to or hang out with on weekends. Soroities can provide this. My chapter has sisters that commute from as much as an hour away... but we still see them at meetings, and events as they can stay with sisters who live closer to campus or in the minimal campus housing available.

I went to a commuter school too. To clump universities that simply don't have many dorms and attract a lot of local HS graduates who can't afford residence hall fees with online universities is prejudicial and ignorant. And no, the University of Toledo is NOT in the same category as DeVry.

Perhaps now it would not be considered "commuter" but 20 years ago it was. My Pi Phi sisters and I all lived at home with our parents. It isn't as easy to maintain a close sisterhood when you don't live together and have to actually go out of your way to find each other and do things but is not impossible. I may not have been able to lounge in a living room but I spent far too many hours in the cafeteria-- that was our hangout (and truthfully, I got to know more members of my own and other GLOs in the cafeteria than present UT students do up in the Village). You DON'T have to live together to have a strong sisterhood/ brotherhood. Greek Life kept us tied to the University and supportive of the changes that have occured since then. Yes, only about 10% of the student body belonged to GLOs but there are plenty of residential campuses that are not much better than that.

Cal State Long Beach it a huge commuter campus. There are approximately 35000 students and only room for 1800 students in the residence halls. Long Beach is an accredited university and has many excellent programs (Nursing and Arts departments) that are top notch! Before anyone makes these broad statements, I suggest you do more research. Additionally, I went to a Private Womens college (95% of students lived on campus) in the Mid-west before I transferred to CSULB. It was accredited by some random private school program. I was there for 1 year. Upon transfering I found out that my $23000 education wouldn't transfer to CSULB or to Mizzou, even though the college I went to and Mizzou had a cross-enrollment program. None of the Sororites at the womens college were National's. Two years after I left, the local sororites were forced to become national, but the accredidation never changed. I appreciate what you all have to say, but sometimes I wonder where you get these ideas.

missed it entirely...duh
 

I did NOT say nor did I equate commuter schools with those which are unaccredited or those "inverted mineshafts.'
Do some of you read? You call me obnixous and you obviously
cannot even understand what was being said...
Charter wherever you want, go to Bruce's Cosmetology School,
to the places who give you a diploma for having lived; but there
is a helleva lot of difference between the commuter, or streetcar
college or living at home versus the unaccredited locations I spoke of.
I am shocked that you seemingly could not grasp that. And, while GLOs, on the other hand, were not established to be rehabilitation centers...some of you seem to have fallen through
the cracks....duh....

Re: missed it entirely...duh
 

I think not understanding you is part of the problem. Like Tom Earp, you have a very different way of "speaking" on here that is very hard to read and comprehend.

Your blatant insults to people and harsh way of speaking aren't going to win you any brownie points around here. It's one thing to have an opinion, but you don't have to express it in an insulting way.

Hold up, folks. I didn't catch the mean and nasty part, apparently, but I just thought Mr. Conard was talking about those rinky-dinky schools where you get your master's degree online in 3 weeks (OK, I'm exaggerating, but you know the kind I'm talking about). I didn't get the impression that he was talking about commuter schools that are "real" universities with students who just mostly live off campus. Y'all gotta read. :p

I did, and this is what I read:

POSTED BY ECONARD>>>BUT...we have gone too far...at least from the perspective of the
"Greek" experience when we are talking about commuter, shopping mall and inverted mineshaft chapters<<

I could have sworn he said COMMUTER...

different worlds...then....huh?
 

The emergence of the trade schools into the so-called academic
world is interesting. And apparently many younger people think
they equate. Hardly. There are a lot of kids who have been admitted to the "academic" institutions who should not be there,
but remain 'cause our whole system is based on growth.
This does not mean we cannot like or mix with folks who've come
up differently than us. But, I do not have a hankerin' to put up
any more hay...and some of you likely do not want to remain in
the city. Our paths might cross, maybe not.
Oh, the DeVry brothers who have the technical schools are grads
of the U of IL and are members of a large college fraternity.
I am simply saying that if those who want to appear to be college
degreed want to have fraternities and sororities, so be it. But I do not, and will not, think they are of the same warp and woof
as has been traditionally accepted. This "Greek Chat" has moved
kinda away from the general impression of "Greek." But, it is a
free country, have at it--Silk Purse University matriculates.
But, some of you need to take a course in reading comprehension,
and I will try to placate some of the bruised egos.

You have to read what else he wrote. I really don't think he meant campuses where most students commute. What he was talking about was those universities that are basically vo-tech schools and have hardly any campus whatsoever, so no one lives there and everyone commutes. Right?

Ok, so I'm confused.

What national NIC/NPC/NPHC/MCGLOs have chartered at say, DeVry or Phoenix University? I sure haven't heard of any. Why is this a problem?

I think we all agree that there's a difference between accredited commuter campuses (where many national groups are colonizing) and these types of "shopping mall" schools as you call them. But I don't see anyone chartering at those places.... ??

shall we move on
 

to set the the record straight...there are many so-called commuter or streetcar colleges which have greek systems, some
with houses, some without. In my own outfit we have Cleveland
State, fifty years over 1,000 initiates...once Fenn college with day
and night school fraternities (so did Pitt). TKE pioneered Portland State, a commuter school. Delta Sig is at Woodbury, hardly a Phi
Beta Kappa place. Phi Delt is at Ringling Clown school in Florida.
The list is legion; many of these so-called streetcar/trade schools
are in the midst of becoming more residential, hard to define.
HOWEVER, I am referring to the schools which are not accredited,
who have credits you buy...whose work will not transfer...which demand little sacrifice...yes, they can have anybody who would
choose to come on. I do not look for Kappa Kappa Gamma to go
on to Tramway Tech between Winchells and Victoria's Secret and
I don't expect Beta to rush in to Mason City College of Auctioneering. Now, there is nothing wrong with these with the
specified purpose. But don't tinkle down my leg and tell me it's
raining....they are not collegiate and they are not universities. And most of us in here have that focus. Those who do not, those
wanna-be's, have at it. It is time to move on and get ugly some
where else...LOL. Life is really too short....

I too ask the same question...

Re: shall we move on
 

Uhhhh...

Phi Delta Theta has a chapter at Ringling School of Art and Design, according to its website (http://www.rsad.edu) it

There's a big difference between this institution and Ringling Brothers and Barnum and Bailey Clown College.

So my question still hasn't been answered: What national NIC/NPC/NPHC/MCGLOs have chartered chapters at unaccredited training schools?

Yes, they have chartered chapters at new, commuter, and/or not as well recognized campuses. But not, to my knowledge, at unaccredited institutions.

Re: Re: shall we move on
 

Sigma Pi has a chapter at Vincennes University, its mother chapter. It used to be a four year college, but has been a private junior college for many years. Sigma Pi received a waiver from the NIC to allow this.

Also, Pike, Sig Ep and TKE had chapters at two year community colleges, but no longer do.

Re: Re: Re: shall we move on
 

I've heard of junior colleges becoming 4-years, but never the other way around. What's the story there? I'm intruiged.

Re: Re: Re: shall we move on
 

Is it an accredited junior college? ;)

Re: Re: Re: Re: shall we move on
 

Its not sufficiently accredited to allow for an NIC chapter.:cool:

I think that the author of this thread's original post was reffering to accepted levels of accredidation. He did, as you pointed out, get two Ringling schools mixed up. Phi Delt is no longer in the NIC, but they would never charter at a vocational school.

Pass the crow, please
 

first, I want to thank the nice DZ...who reads better than I write.
I did include commuter in my reference, once, assailing the mail
order outfits and their ilk. I was wrong. Commuter schools, aka
street car colleges have long been sites of NIC chapters, most of
them not highly successful, i.e., not money-makers (crass!)
And the Ringling schools...I cited the school, not knowing my source had it confused, too. Sorry, Phis, and sorry to see the Phi
Delts leave the NIC but I salute them for the GUTS to do so....It is yet (the NIC) an old fuddy-duddy outfit replete with freeloaders.
In my spam mail yesterday I got an offer to get any degree, with
transcripts, references, whatever, no class attendance necessary
This might be a good place to have the 'feel-goods' grant a
charter...gosh...here I go again. Thanks again, DZ....EPC

Re: Pass the crow, please
 

Again, I want to ask the question that has been asked but not answered. WHERE have you seen this happen that an NPC, NIC, NPHC, MCGLO, etc. did this? I think some of us do not understand your rant because we are not aware that this has ever happened.

Re: Pass the crow, please
 

Why doesn't TKE charter there? You guys are pretty good at chartering at sub-par schools and then losing the charter - or even better, just letting the guys haze and get drunk and burn their houses down!

YEAH GO TEKE!

And where did you go to school so we can evaluate how good it was? And when did you go there? And what is your career?

I don't care if you're old, that doesn't mean you deserve anything. Give us some evidence that your opiNIons have merit.

Re: Re: Pass the crow, please
 

They did expand to some schools that were not accredited.

Re: Re: Pass the crow, please
 

just checked my reflections manual chapter roll (since mine is the only org I can really speak for) and ever since 1913 there have been NO Phi Sig chapters at a vocational or unaccredited universities. there may be some chapters at more commuter schools ( or as you so umm...eloquently and un offensively put it "street car" colleges)

QUOTE]Originally posted by GeekyPenguin

I don't care if you're old, that doesn't mean you deserve anything. Give us some evidence that your opiNIons have merit. [/QUOTE]

I too haven't seen anyone provide this evidence... I mean so far all I've gotten is that Phi Delt (which is no longer in NIC) has ONE chapter at a private two year university... which to me if that's the only thing that you can point out... I don't see why we have this thread. I mean I'm not a proponent of NPC/NIC orgs. colonizing at U of Phoenix really... but I say if they want to do it at a smaller, or more commuter oriented state college GO FOR IT sororites were mainly founded to support women getting an education. Our orgs would never get anywhere if we stuck our noses up in the air at campuses that didn't have enough dorms to house all the students. There's only so many schools in the ivy league.

get real
 

Glitter, baby, your ignorance of the greek system, its workings,
the beginnings...do not even warrant a response.
You are not my peer...I would put my transcript beside yours,
and unless you have a 4.0...you lose...again.

I didn't proclaim to be all knowing about the greek system... that is why I come to greek chat, and that is why I, along with about three other people, asked for you to please enlighten us oh great smart EriK P Conrad :rolleyes: and BTW did I ask to be your peer... becuase I don't really think I care to be.

Re: Re: missed it entirely...duh
 

Co-sign!

We're all going to make typos from time to time, but complete sentences really are wonderful things.

Re: get real
 

With all due respect, Erik, this kind of post just leads me to conclude that your posts do not warrant reading.

Re: get real
 

Mr. Conard, anything of substance that you have to say is going to be automatically discounted when you insult people. That comment was unnecessary, rude, and condescending.

As someone who is older and presumably wiser, I expected better of you.

do not bother...
 

Well, then, Mystic, do not read 'em.
I have not asked any of you for your credentials, nor g.p.a.
TKE has never, 'cept at Tri State, chartered at an unaccredited
school. Tri-State got North Central Accreditation and TKE returned, joined by several others.
Gosh, I did not hear about TKE burning down the house...could be. Where...is it in CA...did TKE put chapters at sub-par schools?
Which ones were these? l'd imagine you will piss backwards on that one, putting it in crawdad gear, as there's likely someone
here who has fond memories of Nortwest South Dakota City Colege...And those of you who are so ape shit about expanding,
why don't you? CA has a lot of schools. You oughta get into one
somewhere...
We have come a long ways from the Union Triad and the many southern groups who disbanded to fight for the confederacy. We
have spread fraternity to almost all. Let's hear some opinions from the Zetes, Dekes, St. A's, St. Elmo's, Alpha Delts, Psi U's, the
KA Society ones...how 'bout their thoughts? And the girls societies, founded at finishing schools, hardly a bastion for rights.
You know, most of you went to school with your folks footing the
bill, many have not had the work experience nor the joy of working with the less-gifted. Some of you will find that even your
bosses are not as smart as you. And, some will find nothing.
Gosh, with such vituperative responses...we can all feel good.