chapter losses...how many, where?
 

Have any of you inquired from your national (no S) or from your
international (no S) how many chapters you have lost in the past, say, five years?
How many did you lose last year? Where? Why?
It is high time we come to grips with these losses. And the miserable U officials, eager to build empires, snatch up the houses without having to go to the legislature for the bucks to build new structures...nefarious, sneaky.
Again, how many did your outfit lose? There's not that many being kicked off, i.e., destroying the entire system. Alumni offices are well aware that Greeks are the biggest donors...but the tenured
profs and administrators do not care...they are empire builders.
Nice to have the students all sequestered in ten-story high rises,
all neatly controlled...another layer of bureaucracy we need....
And the composites of uglies in the co-ed outfits continue to pop up...and in the meantime, we are pressing our crinolines and our
bloomers and our sashes and sabres...
How many did your outfit lose last year? Will you be next? Will you merely bury your head in the sand, and look forward to getting out, joining the Junior League or Jaycees?

I don't think it's a war between competing interests as you seem to characterize it. Yes, the Greek system is changing. Many HQ's have accepted the fact that more and more, chapters are not operating large houses these days.

With every era, there has been some kind of major change in the Greek system. I think the change we are going through is going to be much more pronounced than many of the others, but as far as jeopardizing our existence? Hardly.

Perhaps more of our alums will choose to give to their individual chapters rather than the school? Perhaps we will begin to operate incredibly successful chapters using the same resources as other student organizations on campus. Perhaps our housing operations will have to move further off campus into more unofficial operations?

It's not a war so much as a reorganization. And for every action, there's a reaction. In your initial post you pointed out that many of these changes were not in the long term best interests of these schools. 10 years from now, who knows what kinds of accommodations will be made?

I just don't have such a bleak outlook.

would like to agree...
 

your interesting reply is certainly welcome, and we have, indeed,
moved away from the elite fifteen member chapters to some huge
ones in the south, to some less than huge elsewhere.
We might have to move away from the campus setting due to the
skyrocketing real estate costs.
And legislatures are now considering cuttin' loose many of the state U's in favor of private enterprise, amother situation worth watching and it might spell disaster for some.
The new groups, multi-cultural, co-ed, traditionally non-collegiate,
ethnic, semi-social...often operating without a house or even a
permanent meeting place...they bring to us a totally different perspective...how much fraternalism or brotherhood is up for each
of us to decide.
The opening of the doors to virtually anyone who can fog a mirror is interesting in that it has taken away a lot of the prestige of the
degree. Having conferred several thousand Associate degrees to
many who would not, likely, pass an old-time English proficiency exam, I scratch my pate...at times...wondering if it is worth the investment. I know my MA and PhD's were poor returns...if that
is why I pursued 'em.
Would certainly bear watching and change...it is a-comin.' What
other predictions, opinions, out there?

Re: would like to agree...
 

I don't see the point of your comments. So we now have many more people pursuing some type of higher education nowadays? Maybe you haven't noticed, but many Associate degrees train people in trades and other vital service-sector jobs. My father has an Associate degree and I think that what you are saying is quite discrimnatory. I know many fine, upstanding, intelligent people who have obtained Associate degrees. If you feel that providing these people with educational opportunities harms our traditional University system rather than strengthening them and providing a better educated workforce, I am a bit shocked. And I certainly don't see why that hurts the Greek system... Why shouldn't people have the opportunity to receive 2-year degrees or to form new types of Greek organizations? Rather than restricting, let's open things up! :confused:

Re: Re: would like to agree...
 

You think that W&L is going to open things up anytime soon?:D

Re: Re: Re: would like to agree...
 

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!

That's so funny--actually I'm probably one of the leading liberals/feminists/diversity promoters on campus, so your point is well taken!

I'll take a mini-hijack and then we'll get back on track:

--We have finally acheived a 50-50 male-female ratio
--We did start and maintain a strong NPC system, and will probably be expanding in the next 2-3 years
--There is a lot of interest in an NPHC sorority, but we just don't have the numbers of women yet. However, in the next 10 years or so I can't imagine that we won't get enough people for a chapter of either an NPHC or a MCGLO chapter.
--There are a lot of diversity initiatives and we're getting more diverse every year. We have LOTS of international students and more and more American minority students every year.
--One thing I will proudly say for us is that we have done a MUCH better job than most hardcore southern Greek schools in integrating our system. Minority and international students easily receive bids at most houses.

In short, W&L is changing for the better every day.

[/hijack]

Re: Re: would like to agree...
 

People in 2 year degree programs are most likely either not the smartest or not the most motivated, with a high stress on most likely.

People who are not the smartest nor the most most motivated tend to be higher risks, with a high stress on tend to be.

Fraternities with a higher risk...well there really is no reason to stress the reality here.

Erik, I think in the past couple years at the most maybe 1-3 chapters have closed and in the last 4 I would say 20 chapters have become established for us at AEPi. We aren't the biggest, mostly determined by our reason for existence, and hence have avoided the risk that most GLOs face due to size.

-Rudey

Associate degrees/Greeks
 

Some of you folks have had an oar out of the water for some time now...let me enlighten you...as regards the juco fraternity...
The two year college, aka junior college, now softened to community college...has had Greeks...even NIC greeks.
Sig Ep, TKE, Sig Pi, perhaps others. Most have been miserable
failures...short time in group, house or not, attrition, what about
part time students? Just a few problems they faced.
A survey was made by many NIC groups, including my own, TKE,
and this was about thirty years ago. I was a community college
dean from 1970-76. The problem of transferring to the four year
school was also an issue...would they take or not take 'em?
It just did not work out. One PA school, one TX school, Miami-Dade and Broward in FL were some places with NIC chapters, and
there is the unique one...Vincennes...where Sigma Pi was founded and this seems to be an exception...anybody know how
that has fared?
The junior college fraternity...has been tossed about for over fifty
years...and a negative opinion emerged as to efficacy.
This is not to say that the Associate Degree...originally simply the
junior division of the University of Chicago...does not have use. But do not try to equate it with a baccalaureate one...in no way
shape or form does it parallel...no way. It is, though, a favored
route for athletes to play a coupla years, get thru the junior division and transfer to a four year school and play for a couple of
years...but that's another matter...
'course, some might consider auctioneering schools, cosmetology
centers, cybernetic greeks...gosh, it is wide open...isn't it?

Erik -

Which PA school are you talking about? An independent community college or a branch of Pitt or Penn State?

Penn State Altoona has recently opened for NPC expansion and I believe they've had IFC groups for a while now - they are going to more of a 4 year college rather than a 2 year branch (same as Penn State Behrend). I believe there is also a local fraternity that has chapters at all the Penn State branches and then they come together when they get to Main....now this was explained to me by a guy in a bar so don't take it as gospel. :)

Mr. 33 went to the Art Institute here and he said there was a "fraternity" called Alpha Rho Tau (har) but it wasn't a serious thing.

more on jucos
 

I do not purport to badmouth the community college or the
movement of the junior colleges...often high school extensions
who got some state monies and began to build empires.
These institutions, however, do not lend themselves to the NIC
type fraternity. But, have at it, give charters as you see fit. I am
simply saying that it is a different institution altogether, and like
the technical schools...everyone seems to be out of breath about
"degrees" You can buy all kinds of degrees, all the way to the
fake PhD. The Universities of Phoenix and their ilk are a far cry from the typical institutions we discuss on Greek Chat. You can get a Master's in Air Conditioning. You can get a bachelor's from
Ringling Bros Clown School in FL (Phi Delt chartered here!). We
have ventured far from the old ivied campus and Mr. Chips. But
we are talking apples and oranges.
I enabled many to get mobility, say in law enforcement, while I was the Dean of Instruction at a Community College in Kansas.
I helped recruit athletes. I developed credit and non-credit courses, transferable ones and some not. This is not to say any
of these people were stupid or inferior. It was simply a different
means of continuing education--offered to a wider clientele.
I will say, as a faculty member of both a Big 10 and a Big 8 U that
the night courses and extension ones did NOT have the stringent
expectations...politics, funding, growth, all played a part in these
and we were (and are yet) hypocrites simply trying to survive.
There is a radical difference between a bachelor's in Spanish at
the old teachers' college and the same at Yale...you know that.
The extensions in PA you refer to are now 4-year ones. TKE has
a chapter at Behrend. But it is a helleva far cry from Penn State
at State College. History of fraternities has been broached in
previous postings. The system has undergone a face lift and
Delta Psi (St. A), KA Society, Zete, Delta Phi etc...some of the conservative old line NICs have seen much change. Some of
them have gone co-ed, some simply died, and some are hanging
on. But the Greek Site here...generally...deals with the fraternity
with a house, perhaps not, but with a traditional perspective.
Let us not get all bent out of shape over these matters, they are
vastly different...the juco from the U....

I just don't see fraternities and sororities doing well at community colleges in NC. The turn over is much too fast and most people in NC community schools are not economically in the best shape (not being ugly, just a general realization). They also are typically students that have to put more effort.
However, NCSU has two year degree programs in the Agriculture School. They can join greek organizations, I think most stick to Farmhouse and AGR though.

Behrend's been a 4 year school for quite a while (30 years to be exact) - it's NOT a branch like New Ken or DuBois. I believe it has some specialized programs that the Main campus doesn't offer. No it isn't as big as Main, but not everyone wants to go to a school that size. :rolleyes:

I agree that community colleges or junior colleges would not be good places to have a fraternity - too much turnover - but that really doesn't have thing one to do w/ Behrend.

there is the unique one...Vincennes...where Sigma Pi was founded and this seems to be an exception...anybody know how
that has fared?

I"m from about 15 minutes from Vincennes. The Sigma Pi chapter there from my perception is remaining strong. They built an new house within the last ten years and have made other improvements to the area. From what I understand, they are the only national fraternity there, but VU does have local fraternities and sororities. I didn't know for the longest time that Sigma Pi was national, but I bailed for DC right after high school so I didn't get that joyful 2 years at VU like most of my high school classmates.

By the way VU= Vincennes University, yes it's a two year school, but they have called it a university for as long as I can remember.

Vincennes U
 

thank you, JHUJENN, for your report on Vincennes U, a two year
school in Indiana. This is "mecca" for Sigma Pi, a very successful
NIC fraternity, who has made go of it in this school. It is poignant in that few others have been so lucky. And to have built a house, that is marvelous! Sig Pi...may you thrive at Vincennes!

Phi Psi's chapter retention rate has become quite good. We've lost 2 chapters in the last 5 years, one of which is now being recolonized. We've added 15 chapters and colonies in this time.

There is no national crisis for greeks at this time. Some national GLOs may be struggling, but if so, that's there own fault (and I'm not aware of any that are.)

DU has closed a number of chapters, here goes:

Northern Co. 2004
Victoria 2003
McGill 2000
Virginia Tech 2002
Texas 2000 sad it was my chapter, possible revival in the works
Cornell 2002 /revived 2004
Shippensburg 2002 went local

I guess DU averages 1 1/2 losses per yeas since 2000
Also DU had 1 jr. college chapter at Tyler Junior College in Texas it operated from 1971-1989, our chapter always had one or two transfers from TJC.The chapter closed due to risk problems I hear they carry on as a local

are you kidding me. There has actually been fraternities that have had chapters at JC's. I must be really drunk, or those fraternites must be really dumb. C'mon isn't the point of a fraternity to promote higher learning at the top universities in the county (at least that is the plan for Phi Gamma Delta). I went to a JC before I transferred to UCSB and let me tell you it is not the place to recruit potential brothers.

I have to agree with the previous post, Jr. Colleges simply are not right for social fraternities.
DU never repeated the Jr. College Exp. note we chartered in 1971 right at the depths of the Vietnam Greek decline.

Theta Delta Chi loses (since 1999)

Illinois, 1999
Rhode Island, 2000
Lafayette, 2001
William and Mary, 2002
UCLA, 2003
Lehigh, 2004

Let's see, one Charge per year? :(

You happen to known why UCLA is gone?

From what I understand, it was pretty much a set-up by the UCLA administration to acquire the house. :mad: Of course, Berkeley is working pretty hard on trying to get our house too. But we won't let that happen. :D

Maybe so, phigamucsb, but where you draw the line about what constitutes a "top" university is entirely subjective. Phi Gamma Delta has chapters at lots of schools that many of my Harvard classmates would not consider "top." Does that mean Phi Gamma Delta was "dumb" to colonize there? Seems to me that each group has different ideas about what kind of members it wants to attract and where those members can be found, and there's nothing dumb about that.

I would argue that most fraternities and sororities are NOT there to promote higher learning. These aren't the days of literary societies. But that's just my own opinion.

-Rudey

Most Greek orgs would say they have too many dormant chapters - I know my own does.

My thoughts on top schools - Tier 1 and 2, plus your top 50 or so liberal arts colleges...If you're at all of those, have plans to return, or aren't able to (re)colonize at one of them, then go to your Tier 3 schools. That's not to say Tier 3 schools may not produce better alums than Tier 1 and 2, but your chances are higher of having good members from Tier 1 and 2.

If an interest group approaches you and they seem like a sharp group of students, pick them up - less cost for your headquarters and you're adding a group.

maybe you didn't understand my post. My point was that there is no place for national fraternities on community college campuses. In my opinion, it would be very hard to develop any strong alumni ties, as well as the potential to have many members who fail to further their education. This seems to strictly promote social clubs, which would fall short of the real purpose of a fraternity (I know that some fraternites at college campuses behave this way, but that still doesn't make it right). The point is that each different fraternity was created to foster some common goals in their members and I don't see any of those fitting in with the community college experience. I don't have a problem with people starting up local fraternities at these institutions because they are able to create goals and ideals that may be more consistent with the junior college experience.

For the record I did go to community college before transferring to my university.

Right, FIJI!
 

I agree with the Phi Gam about JuCos, aka community colleges,
not being a hotspot for NIC fraternities. I graduated from one,
Hutchinson, one of the prestige ones, and was Dean at another.
I did the survey of the JCs for TKE and NIC in the 1970s and we
did not come up with a positive study. Yet, Teke and others went
on, anyway. They all died. End of story.
Sigma Pi, through special dispensation from NIC, returned to the
mother institution after about a fifty year absence. This is one of
the few cerebral moves NIC has made and Sigma Pi has thrived.
Another interesting note on fraternal history...what to do with the
two chapters in case of a national merger? Good example, the
Case Institute of Technology and Western Reserve University, in
Cleveland, both of 'em with some chapter duplication. I do not know that resolution. Other mergers caused a release by certain
chapters to join another national or to go local. I can think of
Sig Ep, Lambda Chi, Theta Xi having to deal with these problems,
and the implosion of Kappa Sigma Kappa and Alpha Gamma Upsilon was another enigma. Check out Baird's if you have become a fruitcake on this stuff...like me...LOL.
Oh, yes, not to slight the women...defunct sororities, Beta Sigma
Omicron, Pi Kappa Sigma, Theta Sigma Upsilon, Delta Sigma Epsilon, perhaps others...mostly swallowed up by larger ones.
Then there are the schools which have closed, and those which
have banned greeks, some nationals, some all of 'em. And the
transferring of charters...and so on...kinda fun.