Book pledged: the secret lives of sororities
 

I thought we might be able to dicuss it a little more rationally over here. Especially for people that may have done something novel, like read it.

A general conclusion: I think she did a pretty good job. She isn't overtly hostile nor is she super friendly towards the greek system.

I think some of her inexperience in life is reflected in her writings and value judgements, but thats normal. This is definitely not like the Sorority version of the Satanic Verses as some GC people have made it out to be.

In fact, most of the book is value neutral and brings up some good issues.

Some talk points:

1. I think she may have a skewed idea of Greek Life because most of her experience was at a big southern school.

2. I think some of her world view colors her perception of Greek LIfe.

For example, she doesn't seem to be comfortable with girlie-girl culture, so when she sees it she despises it a bit.

She seems very Politically Correct. Almost as PC as I would expect a college administrator to be, at least on the surface. IT makes her come across somewhat naive, almost like some people that have been in academia all their lives and have specific ideas about how the world SHOULD be.

3. She seems to value diversisty for diversities sake. She says it like a buzz word. Again like an academic.

There are other things we can discuss also I am sure.

Good points, James.

I'm only about halfway through, but so far I like it. *waits for the lightning and thunder and, yes, flames* :p

Mine's on order & I got an email from Amazon to say it's now been dispatched.

Just wanted to say love your opening paragraph James. :D

I am about 3/4 through it and so far - even though I went into it expecting to rant about it - nothing has disturbed me that much. I see some very broad generalizations regarding sorority life that, to me, just happen in any group of girls that live together or spend a lot of time together - whether there are 3 girls, 30, or 300. I don't think they necessarily apply only to sorority life.

I also agree that much of the slant is because of the southern location. Much of what she discusses as "extremely important" to Greeks just was not important at all on my northern campus. I can see that traditions are probably more deep-rooted and "die-hard" in the south.

Do we have any idea what school she was at??

I wanna read this. My library doesn't have it yet :( and I don't want to buy it in hard cover....

I just bought it today...... ;)

I ordered the book online and I got a used copy for $9.99!

I am almost done with "November". Initially I stayed away from reading the previous 2398402340925 discussions related to the book because 1) some of y'all were just wayyyy too biased and haven't even READ it and 2) I wanted to keep an open mind and read it for myself.

The way she went about in gaining her information may not have been the best, but I'll be honest in saying that I'm enjoying the book so far.

Forgive me if I'm sounding like a broken record and someone else has already said this, but her purpose and laying it all out on the table like that has been fulfilled, and it's up me and the other readers to decide for ourselves whether or not we want to accept that as TRUE.

I know what it was like when I was in college, and my experience is similar to that of the thousands of sorority girls everywhere, so I'm not too worried about the fate of sororities after more people read this book. There will be 'haters' (forgive me for not including a better word) out there who will use Ms. Robbins' book as a negative PR tool for Greek life, but I've never been the type to care about what people think of me anyway. :)

So yes, we here at OTW like this book.

Yes Southern schools do tend to be a bit more extreme, esp. Alabama, Tennessee, Ole Miss, etc. That's not to say that there aren't awesome people in all these places. But Rush here is cutthroat and ruthless. It becomes (for some) more of your identity than anything else. I am curious about the book. If I get a chance this summer while I'm at the beach I may read it.

If it were being sold strictly as fiction? I think I'd probably like it a lot more than I do. It is an entertaining read. You already know I have issues with her information gathering techniques and sources, which seriously question her creditability.

I wonder if she really has good close girlfriends. The kind that you talk about boobs and sex and boys and periods with. I got the feeling through the book and through subsequent interviews, that this was her first experience with that kind of girl talk and friendship. And I think she secretly enjoyed finding that kind of female bond but didn't want to admit it because it goes against every academic bone in her body. Without first having and understanding those types of female friendships, I can see where she can be somewhat negative about sorority life because much of it does center around those types of friendships.

I think almost everyone who reads the book can find some part of it they relate to because so much of it is about college life in general, though she tries to equate it strictly to sorority life.

I think James makes some very good points. (damn, I didn't just admit that out loud, did I?)

There is speculation that it wasn't at a strictly Southern school, but at a large Midwestern school which is similar to Southern Greek Life. I can believe this as the chapter, event and lifestyle descriptions match up better at this school than they would at say Bama or Ole Miss.

I'm looking forward to reading it...it's the book this month for the book club I'm considering joining. :)

My Greek experience was so different from the "typical one," that I think I might find more in common with it. We shouldn't be that worried about it honestly--if a PNM reads it and decides that Greek Life isn't for her, that's one less person to cut, right?

I really agree with this. She seemed pretty dismissive of how important strong female friendships can be and I think that makes her viewpoint a little skewed. There was a lot of talk about how sororities can negatively affect women's self-esteem (i.e. Amy and the date rape guy, how Beta Pi convinced Vicki to break up with her boyfriend) but a lot less emphasis on how they can positively affect it (ultimately, Vicki was much happier, confident and less homesick at the end of the year than she had been at the beginning).

Like I said in the other thread, there were some parts that I thought she handled very well, others just ok -- but there was very little that was really really horrible and inaccurate. (The only thing that comes to mind is the Naked Party/Boob Ranking stuff that seemed like she was overemphasizing for shock value -- I would be very surprised if that happens in more than a couple houses around the nation, if at all, but maybe I'm just naive.) I also didn't agree with her revealing the ritual of some groups at first -- but eventually I realized, hey, if that's what it takes to convince people that initiation doesn't consist of goat sacrifices, I'm for it.

OK, I finished it today. I still really liked it. To be honest, a lot of that stuff did go on in my chapter...not, like, the drugs and stuff, but the drama, for example. It's a given. It's not like exclusive to sororities--my sophomore year dormmates were a lot bitchier than most of my sorority sisters--but it's inevitable when you get 100+ girls together. She did say several times that the drinking, the "scandalous" behavior, is representative of all college students pretty much, so I have to give the lady credit for at least trying to stay neutral.

However, in some parts Ms. Robbins does come off as extremely naive. I mean, extremely. It's almost as though she believes herself an expert on all things Greek simply because she spent a year in the close company of some sorority sisters, which would be like me saying I'm practically French because I spent a couple of summers there. She has the same viewpoint on the actual value of joining a sorority than many anti-Greek people have--that it's pretty much a waste of time when you can join other groups that do more for the community and less partying--but I just chalk that up to the fact that she's not an initiated sister and doesn't know what it's really like. Because no matter how many members you interview, you still don't know how it feels firsthand. I felt the same way she does before I decided to rush, so I understand where she's coming from. I was naive, too. It's just something that, as cliche as it sounds, you have to experience to understand.

Also, I didn't understand the part about revealing "secrets" and ritual. Was she trying to show people that we aren't heathens and that we really don't drench our new initiates in animal blood during the ceremony? Or did she write it because she wanted to try to "out" us and take away that bond shared by sisters that she thought was BS? I really don't know. But I will say that I got a really big kick out of reading about my sorority's "secrets." But hey, at least she didn't try to call us "Daughters of Zeus" like everyone else...I do give her credit for creativity!

I think she should've stopped the book before writing the "Recommendations" part at the end. Up til then, it was an entertaining read, but she had to go and get all preachy on us. That's where the naivete really comes out...she has good ideas and all, but I wonder if she honestly thinks anyone will take them to heart? I personally think things are fine the way they are, but...I guess that's just the unqualified overzealous sorority girl in me talking. ;)

Bottom line is, good story. Worth my $15. Will read it numerous times, probably. But I still think Ms. Robbins secretly wishes she could've joined a sorority in college. :D

I thought it was a good book but thought many of the things talked about were extreme. As for her exposing ritual secrets that just was not cool. I mean I don't know. Anyway I liked it but I also hated the last part about how we should change recruitment blah blah blah

ok, I finished it today. Nothing in it was very disturbing to me at all. Pretty much NONE of it applied to my sorority experience. I do think that some of the things may possibly happen in some chapters on some campus, but by no means the majority.

The thing that disturbed me the most is her constant talk about hazing. My chapter did absolutely NO hazing (and I don't mean I didn't SEE it as hazing, I mean NONE) and that was (gulp) 20 years ago when the first anti-hazing laws were being pushed by NPC. I can't see that on a campus with a large Greek system, when pledge classes can number in the 40's and higher, that if such nasty things were going on that at least ONE girl would stand up and say this is BS and "out" the chapter.

Secondly, she seemed to really "diss" the NPC's commitment to philanthropy. She talked about a pancake night at one chapter and said the girls talked about guys and clothes while making pancakes, not about community service...like you can't have a good time while raising money for a philanthropy??

I would have much more respect for this book had she presented a balanced view. It is definitely very one-sided. She doesn't "follow" or even present people who had a wonderful sorority experience, like myself and like thousands of women out there.

didn't apply to me..
 

I just finished reading the book (well, except for her advice at the end... maybe ill get to that later) and while it was an interesting read, i feel like it did not apply to my sorority experience AT ALL.

I do not go to a big state school, greek life is not that intense at my school, we do not have sorority houses, we do not have serenades, and sororities (at least mine) do not haze AT ALL. (they can "suggest" that we wear our pledge pins, but they cant tell us to.. and innocent stuff like scavenger hunts would even be considered hazing here).

I guess I'm a little confused about her information -- did she follow these girls around everywhere? (if so, how did she pretend to be an alum or whatever for 2 different sororities on the same campus without blowing her cover?) also, wouldn't these 4 girls and/or their friends realize what happened when the book was published?

also, where did she get all of the ritual information? did random girls just go around telling her this or did she just make it up/find it online? i wonder if any of it is even accurate..

overall, this book read like a novel... FICTION. the "secrets" part just seemed really out of place, and was unnecessary.

i thought it was alright. she seemed to go on about the whole "outsider" type of thing and where the girls had thier own lil groups, so what's the point of being in a sorority, and that there was alway cattiness. well, if you take 150 girls anywhere and put them in a house, you'll get the same deal. people have different personalities. not all women get along, and of course you'll have your lil group of friends that you get along with the best, but most or all of the other girls will still be your friends. as for the extensive partying, people are in college. there are college students that aren't in glos that party as much as glo members. those people prolly go to glo parties! she did try to be neutral in the book, but she did have negative views about things, which is what people will listen to more (which is stupid.) i do think she should have found women that did have good sorority experiences like everyone on GC. i was wondering how she kept undercover for a year? if these women did know she was gonna write this "tell all" book? and what members of those orgs think now?

That's what I was wondering also. Some of the away messages were irrelevent to the chapter or section of the book.

I have a question relating to this list from a post Sugar & Spice made:

Does she specifically say there are 18 NPC groups, or 18 sororities? ;)

Ooooooooooh, that's a good one. :p Never thought of that.

I just finished reading this tonight. Over-all I thought it was a good read.

I agreed with her on the sterotypes tho. The way she pointed out how each of those girls fit the sterotype...I feel that each sorority has a girl like that. Always will. The speaker she wrote about...I think he came to my campus because it sounded way to familar to me.

I was a little applaud that she knew secret ritual stuff and the hidden meanings that we all know for our sorority. I was extermly annoyed with this. If you think about it, she had to get that info from a sister who was apart of that sorority. Just aggervates me that they could tell someone that when it suppose to mean something to them.

Clues she drops, though she admits some, maybe most, are fake:
- The school is in the South, probably Texas
- 18 sororities
- The sororities have about 120-160 sisters, or in that general range
- They have houses
- The houses are large and hold a lot of sisters -- Beta Pi is described as sleeping almost 90 girls
- They have deferred rush -- to me this is the most important clue as it's out of the ordinary, especially for Southern schools, and most likely one that was NOT changed
- They have Homecoming, which they also refer to as "Greek Week," and they do serenading/courting to decide who Homecoming picks are
- The school and the Greek system in particular seem very status/wealth-oriented

This sounds like my school! We did deferred rush for a couple years (2000-2002) but there was such an outcry they went back to holding Rush right before school started. We do have 18 sororities (16 NPC and 2 NPHC). Southern school, obviously. All have houses which are quite large and nice (some sleeping 90). Homecoming here is essentially "Greek Week" although we do have a separate Greek Week. Definitely a status thing here.
I will check to see if either of those two names are actually chapters here. Wouldn't THAT be some isht??? :eek:

ETA: I ordered it from BN this morning. I'm going to check for details that might point to here.

Someone wrote a book about the secret lives of sorority sisters??? :eek:

There's a local called Alpha Omega Pi. Check the "Does it exist" thread in the Greek Life forum.

I succumbed and bought the book (because even that beeyotch need to make a living too...can you tell I am biased??)

I will let everyone know my thoughts as soon as I am done.

Aren't you all excited!!! :D

I caved yesterday too and bought the last copy at our Barnes and Noble. I read about a quarter of it, and I haven't seen one "secret" yet, but maybe I'm not far enough along. So far, while it's funny and a lot of it is true, she is the generalization queen of the world when it comes to saying what sorority life is about. I'll give more out when I'm done.

I am almost done with the book. It didn't make me as mad as I thought it would, but the only thing I didn't like very much was when she revealed ritual secrets or secret meanings behind some of the sororities, mine included.

I also think that it was hard for me to relate because I go to a school where there are 3 NPC sororities and no one has houses. I've decided to take it all with a grain of salt, but it was a good read, definitely kept me interested and involved with the "characters".

Well, I just finished it. I thought most of it read like a work of fiction, and not a very good one at that. Many of the situations just sounded made up to me.:rolleyes:

My copy should be coming today or tomorrow. Is it light reading (mindless) or tedious? I'm thinking of taking it to the beach but if it isn't really intruiging I may go buy something else.

I consider most of it light reading.

She breaks up the academic year with the different months/significant Greek or campus events. It goes back and forth between the girls' "experiences" and then to her "research". Some of her "research" parts are somewhat longwinded, but I finished the book in about two days. :)

I was really pissed at the ritual secrets and meanings. I had to stop reading to cool off.

move it to the fiction section!
 

This book was selected for the May meeting of a new book club I've joined. It's sort of out of character for this group - we usually read Oprah-style novels - but the book club consists of mostly non-Greek women. (I wasn't there when the group selected it - after reading all the comments on this board, I would have vehemently objected.)

So I'm halfway through, and my husband is wondering why I keep getting so agitated reading this book. Maybe I'm just naive or things were different in the mid- to late-80's on my campus and in my chapter, but please - "Drug rooms"? Guys staying overnight? Any NPC that found out about a "drug room" (and trust me, they would find out) would yank a charter immediately. And guys couldn't get upstairs any time of the day, much less stay overnight. (My boyfriend never saw my room the three years I lived in the house.) Again, the intrachapter policing network would be reporting the offender quicker than you could blink an eye.

I think she's focusing on the scandalous parts (hey, she's got to sell books - no one would watch a show called "Having a Lovely Dinner and the City") and just skimming over the stuff that I always thought was fun - socials/mixers, candlelights, big/lil sis, etc.

I do find the dearth of footnotes and citations to other sources rather interesting. And has anyone else noticed that when she cites "studies," she cites to obscure texts or articles that are impossible to find, even on the internet?

I am looking forward to correcting all of her errors for the non-Greeks at my book club.

Re: move it to the fiction section!
 

Angelove,

I think some people are reading into stuff. Drug room gets a lot of news play, but its like three sentences in the book. A room with a bong in it where the members like to hang out and smoke is a "drug room" or could be called such.

I have been to friends' chapter houses where they were like thats the "druggie room" the room where a big stoner lives and a lot of the brothers like to go hang out.

I know enough sorority girls that smoke pot, have done ecstasy, coke etc to make it real plausible.

I know a girl that was expelled from a Florida ZTA chapter along with some of her sisters for too much partying . .. .

We have had whole threads on here discussing Shacking and girls admitting that boys could come up and shack at their houses despite the rules.

Also the bulk of the book is taken up by mixers, exchanged, candlepasses, formals, Bigs and littles. She just disparages this because she believes that sororities have created a culture that revolves around and is defined somewhat by their relationship with men. And she has a point, I just don't agree that is a bad thing.

As far as source material, her endnotes are pretty extensive.

Re: Re: move it to the fiction section!
 

I haven't read the book, but I agree with this point. Just from reading GC I'm amazed by how much emphasis sororities put on dating and relationships -- from the candle passes to date parties and formals. I know there is also an emphasis on scholarship and philanthropy, but more often than not that's not what I hear about -- I hear about women who are upset that they don't have a date for this or that, or that their date is being an ass, or that they want a candle pass of their own -- and frankly I do think it's a problem.

Re: Re: Re: move it to the fiction section!
 

There is a HUGE emphasis on dating and relationships, even in my chapter that never did a candle pass, had really lax rules, and had more women graduating magna cum laude than with an MRS. I can only begin to imagine what it's like in those "traditional" chapters some GCs love to fawn over.

Not true for every NPC chapter with housing.

Some of her suggestions were not all that bad.

She thought that national's should put less pressure on chapters to keep numbers up. And not close chapters just because they fell below a certain amount. Her point was that even ten sisters can have a strong bond.

She also thought that national's and chapters should be less judgemental and should stop expelling girls because they don't totally conform to proper lady like behavior. In the cases of excessive drinking etc. Her point was that if it was truly asisterhood than maybe you should be more interested in elping someone than getting rid of them.

Re: Re: Re: move it to the fiction section!
 

What's wrong with wanting a candle pass? I can see there being a problem if you're thought of as "uncool" if you don't ever get one, but just wanting one is the same as wanting, say, a new pair of shoes.

As for not having a date to functions...my sorority sisters never made me feel like a loser for not having one (and I went without quite often because I had a long-distance guy), but going somewhere is so much more fun when you have someone to dance the slow songs with. I like dancing with my friends, too, but I also like meeting people and being "forced" to find a date can help you meet a lot of people. :p

You know, even GDIs have that "date" issue. My university often had "smokers" before formals just so people could find dates.

Totally agree with this post. I won't say I DIDN'T want a candle pass, but not for the ceremony...but because I wanted a boyfriend I loved and who loved me. I would have felt that way whether I was in a sorority or not.

Every single formal I went to had sisters who went solo or with another sister as their "date" - I think enough people had been through bad proms with dates who were jerks that they learned their lesson. I had sisters as dates, dates I was madly in love with, dates who were like brothers and dates who I met when they walked in the door. I still had a blast at every formal I went to because I was with the most fun people I know - my sisters.

My point is, if you're made to feel like a loser because you didn't have a candlepass or didn't have the perfect date from the right fraternity for your formal, that's a CHAPTER problem, and you should probably try to find less shallow sisters rather than blaming it on a harmless ceremony.

Re: Re: move it to the fiction section!
 

Again, this is really a college thing moreso than just a sorority thing. And, actually, I don't even think it's a college thing, I think it's a life thing. When you get a group of 18-23-year-old women together, a good part of that talk is going to be about relationships because that's what's important to the many of those women at this time in their lives. I think it's another example of her lack of understanding female relationships.

more thoughts after more reading ...
 

Still not finished, and still somewhat angry about the outright misrepresentations, but here are some more contrasts with my actual experience:

-Back in the olden days when "little sisters" were officially recognized organizations, they were not sex slaves, nor did they have to sleep with a certain number of brothers to become initiated, nor were the little sisters an easy (no pun intended) source of dates for the brothers. In fact, most of us found it easier not to date brothers of the fraternity in which we were little sisters - too messy if things didn't work out.

-The author quotes unofficial rush guides and generally-published sorority books and makes it appear that they are actually national rules of a sorority. For instance, when she makes the list re: don't have sex, don't dress like a slut, etc., she makes it appear as if those are actual sorority rules, when it's just an unofficial guide from the 80's that's probably out of print (and one that I don't remember ever seeing back then). For people who aren't geeks like me, they won't get that information without reading the endnotes.

-She gives outdated information but makes it appear that it still happens today. She quotes Maryln Schwarz's humor/comedy book about Southern women as a source for her assertion that alumnae send gifts to promote certain rushees. This is another one of those rules that is strictly enforced by individual chapters, nationals, and college panhels.

-speaking of enforcment, other posters have pointed out that guys go upstairs anyway and sisters do drugs in the house. Again, my experience was that if this happened, a sister would get hauled before the chapter's version of a disciplinary committee very quickly. I read last night about the "enforcer" types in the chapter who worked to enforce 1950's type standards imposed by nationals, and I can assure you our chapter had plenty of these. (Somehow it didn't keep us from being known as a fun chapter on campus.) A lot of the things that the author discusses in her book simply wouldn't have happened with all of these enforcer-types around. I do like the author's point that nationals and alumnae have different perceptions of how the girls in each chapter should represent the sorority, and that those perceptions are often unrealistic and inconsistent with the stated goals of the sorority. What is "moral" in this decade may not be the same as the ideals of "morality" at the time the founders wrote the goals.

-I also agree with the author's point that GLOs should do more community service rather than raising funds, although funding is an important aspect as well. We complain that we only make the news when something bad happens, but maybe we aren't doing enough newsworthy events for the good of the community. (In college towns, the last little feel-good clip on the nightly news should be something like "The Alpha Betas and Psi Omegas took turns reading to kindergarten students today in Collegeville's poorest neighborhood ...")

-I haven't read this part yet, but I did skim ahead to see if she revealed any of my sorority's secrets or rituals. She was dead wrong on some of them (thank goodness!)

-Finally, I disagree with James that the endnotes are sufficient. Even if you omit the sections based on her "observations" and "interviews," many sources (not those that need to be confidential) are missing for a number of her assertions.

I'll finish this weekend ... this thread is a good prelude for my book club.