Was the 18 YO Drinking Age the Most Damaging?
 

So, I got off the phone with a university president, who is a Phi Psi, a half hour ago. We were discussing chapter cultures that promote true excellence.

It was his opinion that when the drinking age was lowered to 18, the behavior and standards of fraternities was also lowered. It was not until years after the drinking age was back up to 21, did things begin to get better.

He also specifically cited alumni, from the 1970s and 1980s, as those who continue to not be very helpful, in reforming fraternities.

Thoughts?

Our Canadian chapters have very little to no issue with risk management. I attribute this to the drinking age in Canada being 19.

There also aren't that many Canadian chapters to really make a statement like that.

-Rudey

I don't know. In Europe, the drinking age is 18 (or sometimes, even 16), and they have fewer issues than in English speaking countries. If kids are told that moderate drinking is ok, and are taught properly, then there'll be fewer issues.

Do you have proof of this?

-Rudey

There are 2 provinces in Canada where the legal drinking age is 18. Alberta and Quebec. I know Pi Phi has a chapter in Alberta, and there are GLO's in quebec. I have not heard of them having serious risk management issues because of the legal drinking age.

Do those chapters allow drinking in the house?

A friend of mine worked in Europe over the summer and she said that the young people over there weren't nearly as crazy about alcohol as they are here.

Pi Beta Phi has an alcohol-free housing policy.

I lived in Europe and they're crazier. Now that we're doing talking about our experience, let's talk statistics.


"Based on statistics compiled by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHSTA), "alcohol-related"(1) traffic fatalities for people under 21 dropped by 43% (from 5,062 alcohol-related fatalities to 2,883) during the years 1987 through 1996.(2) This should be seen in the context of a 28% drop in alcohol-related traffic fatalities in the general population. From 1982 through 1986 when minimum purchasing and public possession age laws varied from 18 to 21, alcohol-related traffic fatalities for people under 21 dropped by 14% (from 6,329 alcohol-related fatalities to 5,455).(3) Alcohol-related traffic fatalities for the general population during this period dropped by 4%. In NHSTA's view, the minimum 21 age laws "have had greater impact over the years as the drinking ages in the states have increased, affecting more drivers aged 18 to 20."(4)"

Also, in regards to Europe where the drinking age is lower, the WHO (World Health Organization) conducted a study stating:

"Britain, with few abstainers even in its adult population, is notable for the low numbers of adolescents who have never tried a drink. Well under 10% of 13-year-olds say they have never had alcohol. In addition, one in seven English boys aged 11, one in four Welsh boys of 13 and around a half of 15-year-old boys in England and Wales drink wine, spirit or beer once a week, putting them among the highest youthful consumers in Europe.

Cees Goos, WHO regional adviser for alcohol, drugs and tobacco, said: "We are receiving signals from all across the region that many young people are turning to alcohol as a drug. There is an increase in high-risk drinking, such as binge-drinking and drunkenness."

Europe under the influence

Belgium
6% of workers have drink problem; 40% of violent crime and vandalism linked to alcohol

Denmark
Drink-related deaths doubled 1970 -94 despite national consumption stagnating since 1983

Finland
Nearly half male and one in five female suicides involve alcohol abusers

France
40% of fatal traffic accidents - 4,000 deaths a year - and overall 43,000 deaths, 9% of total, linked to drink in 1997

Germany
2.7m people between 19 and 69 misuse alcohol. Alcohol-related mortality estimated at 40,000 a year

Hungary
Cirrhosis among men rose from 19 per 100,000 in 1970 to 208.8 in 1994

Norway
80% of crimes of violence, 60% of rapes, arson and vandalism committed under influence

Poland
1,446 fatal alcohol poisonings in 1996

Russia
40% of men and 17% of women suffer from alcoholism

Spain
25% of domestic violence drink-related

Sweden
87% of attempted suicides attributed to alcohol in 1992

United Kingdom
50% of violent crime, 65% of attempted suicides linked to alcohol; 33,000 deaths a year linked to drink in England and Wales alone


So these countries with lower drinking age minimums faced a lot of problems. America which increased its drinking age minimum, benefited it seems in the sense of less accidents.

-Rudey

The drinking age being lowered was tied up with so many other things - Vietnam, the sexual revolution, student protests, increased drug use - that to say that everything was due to the drinking age is ridiculous.

I think that by the time this actually occurred, there was so much drug usage that it was sort of a non-event. Alcohol was for parents and The Establishment.

Obviously I'm not talking about Greeks specifically, but the culture in general. Now that the drinking age is back up to 21 and alcohol is Satan, I think that drug use is MUCH worse than it used to be when I was in school. If you're going to break the law, might as well do it up big time.

And as for his alumni comment...I think that the 70's and 80's probably saw a more diverse (I mean class-wise) group of people joining GLOs than in years previous, so if he means they are not very helpful in wanting groups to be upscale Stepfordian enclaves, I guess he's right. :rolleyes:

He attributed Vietnam to producing more mature fraternity members.

As far as the 1970s and 1980s, he specifically said that these alumni now have expectations that college is a time to party, and many of these parents are tolerant of this kind of behavior (and by party, I mean all the time.)

Neither he, nor I in my post, mentioned anything about diversity. This thread is specifically about the disintegration of fraternal culture, and how the 18YO drinking age may have been the primary variable. What's with the comment of "wanting groups to be upscale Stepfordian enclaves?" Sheila, I would love to know what's going on inside your head.

Well, I thought that Vietnam produced dead fraternity members, but I guess that's just me.

Re the "diverse" comment, I didn't quite know how to put what I meant...I knew it would come out wrong. (This is another thing that has nothing to do with drinking age) A lot of new student aid came about in the 1970's and 1980's....college (and Greek life) was no longer only for the rich. Greek life also expanded at a lot of smaller schools. So you're going to get a much wider variety of types of people joining, which I think is great. It seems nowadays that the pendulum is swinging back and all the risk-management preventatives (third party vendors, party buses etc) are once again making Greek life something you have to be wealthy to be part of. I'm not saying the preventatives are inherently bad, but when you have to do all that it takes a toll on your finances that chapters cannot always handle without jacking their dues into the stratosphere.

The result is that you have a smaller pool of people joining Greek life and more risk of homogenization. So I didn't mean race-religion-sexuality diverse, I meant it in a $$ way.

Maybe there are some parents who think college time = party time, but I'm guessing that there are far more out there like the parents at South Carolina who had fits that their little darlings might be wasting a millisecond of study time pledging.

But to answer the question, NO, the 18YO age was not the primary variable. There were far too many other things going on at that time. (Including one I missed - coeducation at formerly all-male schools)

Alcohol can be very dangerous, especially in a culture where we drive to get everywhere. However, I would like to see the drinking age lowered to 19 or 20, to release pressure on Univeristies, yet still keep High School students from getting their hands on the stuff. of course, I would love an increase in safe public transportation at night to go along with this.
My reasons have nothing to do with stats, and everything to do with the fact that I have young friends who still can't go to bars with me. Actually, I would love to see local authorities cooperate to have 19 and over bars, but 21 to drink. Even that would be much nicer!! I can have a blast, and my young friends can come out and DD. (evil laugh)

As for the kids in Europe being more mature about alcohol, some are at 18 compared to US kids, but that's because they went all out at 14! I swear I saw groups of 12 year olds in the plazas guzziling calimocho. 12!!!! No one bothered to stop them.

I'm going to be the type of Mom who hosts the New Year's party for my kids their senior year in high school because I'd rather see them drink champagne in my living room and not get caught then be out doing it wherever.

Hmmm. I'm not so sure I agree with that. I think the whole reason why the 70s and 80s seemed so out of control was the scrapping of in loco parentis as the norm. All evidence I've seen indicates that the 1980s were the worst (as far as alcohol is concerned), yet by the time I entered college in 1987, the 21 year old law was in place just about everywhere (I know they still had the grandfather clause in Ohio for like another year after that).

I'm not mentioning the name of whom I spoke with, because I am likely to quote him out of context, and did so with the way I mentioned Vietnam. His comment was not that Vietnam was a good thing. He basically said that those who fought in it had there collegiate careers postponed, and that they started college as older, and more mature students.I thought that the emergence of student aid, for new classes of people, was primarily initiated with the GI Bill immediately following WWII.

His perspective is primarily from his undergraduate greek system, which dates to the 19th century. His graduate work was at schools without greek systems, so he had no direct frame of reference at those two schools. Also, I'm sure that he talks with his peers about these issues.

As far as the cost of preventives making GLOs less affordable, the current trend is of increasing membership size, as liability insurance is at an all-time high. I don't believe that the numbers show any correlation between the cost of liability insurance and the ability to maintain, and even increase chapter sizes.I was very surprised to hear him mention this, and I don't think that he meant that this was the norm, but rather, as a small, but visible trend that creates problems.I'd like to hear some more opinions on this from those who were involved when the drinking age dropped.

When did the "scrapping of in loco parentis" happen?

Raised liability insurance = raised dues. Raised dues often = less members, ESPECIALLY at smaller schools with smaller chapters.

So are you agreeing with me that if things keep on the way they have, eventually there won't be such a thing as a chapter with less than 100 members, solely because it won't be cost effective? If so, that sucks. (Not the fact that you agree, but the fact that would happen - not everyone wants to be in a huge chapter.)

Most schools got rid of in loco parentis in the late sixties-early seventies. It came directly out of the whole sixties student movement and student demands for greater freedom from the university administration. For example, my mother graduated from college in 1957. She lived in a women's dorm with a 10PM curfew on the weekend and bedchecks. Curfew was midnight on the weekend. If you were not in your room at bedcheck, you got in trouble. Women ate in a separate dining hall at assigned tables and could not leave the table until everyone at the table finished eating. If you went out on a date on the weekend, you had to sign out and tell where you were going. In those days colleges had at least as many rules as there were living in your parent's home, and my mother even went to a state school!
Imagine her reaction when in 1987, she found out we could have female visitors in our rooms until 2AM on weekends! In her day, men weren't allowed out of the lobby! Now I'm surprised when I started working at a university where all the dorm floors are co-ed, and there's no visitation hours.(the bathrooms are single sex though)

I remember the 18 drinking age (for 3.2 only) when I first rushed - and this was the very end of wet-rushes. Wow.

Things certainly have changed, I can definitely say, for the better by raising the drinking age - I was "fortunate" I guess that I wasn't affected by the change to 21 (I was grandfathered, and one of my AM class members missed the cutoff by ONE DAY - was he ever pissed) - but those days were definitely wild. Too wild, really. The risks people took - driving, social issues, while intoxicated...unreal. Also, it really allowed the focus to be on alcohol more than what we should have focused on as fraternity and sorority members - we were too interested in abusing the pleasures of membership, versus focusing on the responsibilities of membership. Things have changed for the better in that department, in my opinion, for the most part.

I'm somewhat glad the age was raised - though I don't see the problem it was intended to fix as having been solved at all - it still happens all to often (I still don't get how 18-20 year old students feel this "entitlement" to be able to drink as well - it is illegal, and that is just the way it is - don't like it? Work to change it!)

What really bugged me about the change - was how the federal government put so much pressure on states to make the change by threatening to withhold money for highway/road projects in-state. I always found that tactic to be somehow unconstitutional, but no one ever challenged it, they just caved in to the demands.

All I'm saying with regard to the impact of liability insurance on chapter membership size is that, if it continues to rise, the demand for collegiate fraternal organizations will eventually diminish. We have not reached that point yet, as evidenced by the fact that the current cost of liability insurance is at an all-time high, and demand for GLOs is increasing.

I'm assuming (no Odd Couple quotes, please) that this went hand-in-hand with the lowering of the drinking age. These two trends probably complimented each other nicely.

Bad assumption. The drinking age didn't suddenly change -- it happened over a number of years. Ohio, where I was, and NY were among the last to change. What caused the final states to change the age was a Federal Highway Act which basically said that states that didn't raise their drinking age to 21 could not receive any Federal Highway Funds.

In Loco Parentis was an issue of whether a university should act as a students parent away from home. Most of the things mentioned by BSUPhiSig were still in place for women when I started college in 1965. They slowly began to relax at about that time. I would credit things like the Women's Movement, the Vietnam War and just the general cultural change that led to things like allowing 18 year olds to vote (1968).

So, it doesn't track to me that as young people were given more responsibility and taking the option to drink away would go hand in hand. Seems to me that they were in direct contradiction. The opposite dyanmic.

For whatever it's worth, one of our long time chapter advisors is the City Attorney in a college town, and it is his opinion that the drinking age for beer should be lowered to eighteen in order to take the "thrill" of "breaking the law" away. It would make things a lot easier on the police and the courts -- at least in that situation.

This isn't really on topic, but I went to hs (in Florida) with a guy who wanted to go to Tulane specifically because he thought it was the best school in Louisiana at the time. He was set on a Louisiana school for college because at that time they were the only state to have an 18-year-old drinking age. Well, he got in, went, and they raised the drinking age to 21 his first semester! He was so pissed! So he left and went to FSU.

/end hijack

power drinking
 

I entered college in Kansas in 1954. The legal age for beer was
18, we had no liquor sales then.
We drank legally, but NEVER, NEVER in the house and we rarely
had "keggers." We never approached sponsors or school officials with booze on our breath. We were, I guess, discrete, or we may
have been called "hypocrites." We policed ourselves, and were a
bit tough on drunks, criticized them openly in chapter meetings. We did NOT drink in the house...we did not vomit on the SAE lawn or pee on the Sig Ep porch. We had rather strict manners, and as
I see it now, held our booze and manners considerably better as
compared to today's 21 age. I am sorry, folks, but if we can draft
you to be killed at 18, you sure as hell can have a drink. But, with
it comes responsibility. Some of you will disagree, that's ok, too.
I worked off a lot of the booze jitterbugging. We had fun and I do
not know of any drunk drivers, or bad behavior. We did not have
confrontations, either, with the many non-Greek administrators that you have to put up with, so I am sorry for you all. I had a
wonderful experience and wish it for you-all, too. EPC, TKE

The 70's...

I can't even remember when it changed. It (alcohol) was all over the place. No real control as anyone could attend TGs that the fraternities held at their houses. This was about every other weekend. Bars never looked too closely at an ID and some didn't even have photos. What's was worse (IMO) were the drugs. Kids mixing them with drinking made for real heavy safety issues in every vein. No concept of a designated driver existed-not in anyone's vocabulary. People driving on the Houston freeways loaded out of their MINDS!

Philosophically, I agree with the war/drink stance. Yet, I don't think there is the same level of maturity (meaning emotional and responsible) across the board that there was in the past. I don't mean to paint everyone with the same brush, just that a lot of young people are kind of "soft" and immature because many parents (myself included) have pampered them. Then again, I feel sending an 18 year old to war is the equivalent of sending a "teenager" as opposed to a "man". Alcohol appears to be so benign when you are in college. The truth is, many who start down that road cannot see the damage ahead-especially at 18.

One thing though-there didn't seem to be as many deaths.
Could be they just didn't make news out of it.

This doesn't really have anything to do with much.. haha... just thought I'd say that over here in England the legal drinking age is 18, so I've been drinking for two years and I intend to carry on when I get to college haha. To tell you the truth I do think that the 21 legal age in the States is much better than our 18.... kids our out of hand over here... because as you all know, realistically, 21 means 18, and 18 therefore means 16... so young teenagers are getting completely out of hand. Also... in the States you can drive at 16... that gives you five years of alcohol free driving. Here you drive at 17 and drink at 18... not good.

I agree with the this. I do think think the older one gets, the "thrill" of binge drinking disappears.
The legal drinking age is 19 in most of Canada (18 in Alberta and Quebec). I entered university when I was 19 (as were most Ontario students because of OAC). My residence allowed all alcohol (except for beer in bottles...cans were fine), so everyone who was of legal age (and I am sure some who were not) had alcohol in their room. I'll admit, that in my first year I was at the bar at least twice a week. When I returned for my second year, I hardly ever went out. Maybe I went to the bar once or twice every 2 weekends. I had other things to, and drinking till I puke wasn't one of them.
I still drink, but I don't purposefully drink to get drunk anymore, which I think is the real issue here.
So maybe instead of dealing with the drinking age (which I do believe is part of the problem) why we should start asking why is binge drinking "so cool"?

Actually, in Illinois we had different drinking ages for men and women back then. Women were allowed to drink at 19 (I think) for men it was 21.

Lady Pi Phi-So maybe instead of dealing with the drinking age (which I do believe is part of the problem) why we should start asking why is binge drinking "so cool"?

I'm with you on this! Couldn't agree more!

I agree that the real issue is "Why is binge drinking so cool?". I am from the eighties generation (In college from '83-'87). Beer was free flowing from the kegs of the fraternity houses and we were allowed to be in bars when we were 18 but not allowed to buy until we were 21. The 21 year olds had no problem buying for those who wanted it. I never heard of "power hour" or of doing 21 shots on your 21st birthday. Occasionally someone would get way too drunk but binge drinking wasn't the norm. 18-20 year olds were driving to Ohio to buy, especially the 3.2 beer, which was probably more dangerous. Drugs were extremely rare. I knew of a couple people who smoked marijuana.

With beer being the main drink of choice, most people got full before they got that drunk. Dancing and flirting were more fun than getting so drunk that you couldn't do either!

Canada's drunk driving laws seem much more strict than ours. I've known people who were caught driving under the influence in Canada and their cars were impounded! How do you explain that to Mom and Dad?

I don't drink at all anymore, because of how it affects my Crohn's Disease. Weeks of illness make having a drink (even an occasional one) not worth it. But, even before the Crohn's, I couldn't tell you the last time I'd been drunk. It was definitely before I had kids. Hmmm, probably 1991!

Dee

Re: power drinking
 

For the most part, this was true at UK in the mid to late 70's as well. Except for perhaps the jitterbugging. :D

Students did not join GLOs to drink or get drunk. Not to say it didn't happen. In fact, I'm still wondering if I didn't brain my damage. :cool:

But frankly, at the time, drinking was part of the campus wide social environment and as such, wasn't a big deal. (FYI: UK's alcohol policy came about not because of Greeks "misuse" of alcohol, but because it was a campus wide issue.)

And like justamom, I too don't recall any alcohol related issues at the time. But as justamom also pointed out, it may not have been considered "news". :eek:


Edited to note: UK = The University of Kentucky.

TSteven, I could not agree with you more along with justamom.

Erik and I were somewhat close contempories as it were and knew him in "THE OLD" days!:cool:

I lived and went to a college that had 21 as a drinking age, Mo. in the 60's.

Ks. did have the 18 age of drinking age so all of the Mo. people went to Ks,., not to get drunk but socialize with contempories from differnet or even the same school.

As Erik said, there was no drinking in the Houses, all of the parties were taken off campus, not by National Rules, but by common sense and Chapter Rules.:cool:

Upon going to school in Ks. I was of legal age anywhere to imbibe and did. But, if a Brother/Sister of any Greek Organization had problems, it was a code that we all take care of each other!

Todays Code seems to be diferrent, by Risk Management Insurance Cost Say!

Have times and Mores' have changed in 40 years, yes they have, but the question is, is it for the better?

Do We be our Brother/Sisters Keepers?:confused: Saddly, it does not seem so!:(

Russ, it was a very good question and talking with a Man who is in a position to do something about it and getting his input was a stroke of Genius! Points out some very good points!:)

I have always been of the contention, that if you can go to the Military and get killed for Your Country, or Vote for whoever dictates the policies for Your Country, then why cannot you have alchohol if you so desire!

I want to add that at the time, drinking was allowed in the chapter houses and the dorms. It just wasn't something that was done to an extreme that seems to be the issue now. And for what it's worth, often the "wild" parties actually happened in the dorms. :eek:

Back in my younger days as an undergrad (a little over 20 years ago) the drinking age in my home state (Florida) was 19; when I went to college at Oklahoma is when I had my first encounter with weird drinking laws. Prior to September 1983, those 18 and over could purchase 3.2 beer; you had to be 21 and older for 'strong beer' (over 3.2%) or hard liquor. And there was a very hard-fought referendum the following year over serving liquor by the drink in Oklahoma. (If you wanted a mixed drink, you had to join a private club and bring your own bottle at the liquor store; the club provided the 'setups' (I think Utah still uses this setup today.))

Here's the story on why Oklahoma was the last 'dry' state to go 'wet': http://www.normantranscript.com/stor...y_id=9290&c=12

I'm not sure where in Europe your friend worked, but I don't agree with you on this. Because students aren't in session over the summer, that may have affected your friend's observations.

I lived in England for a long while and I routinely saw drunken groups of young people and university students doing dumb stuff. (Driving through the city centre at 2am was a disgusting sight sometimes.) As a matter of fact, my university's athletic union has an annual "sports initiation night" for everyone on a sports team. That event is a HUGE MEGA GIGANTIC risk management nightmare. Here I was this American student affairs professional and I was totally shocked and horrified by what the university/student's union allowed on campus property.

I lived a block away from one of the town's favourite streets for pub crawling and I cannot agree that European people are better at handling alcohol because they were taught better at an earlier age. :( If anything, it was the 18 - 21 year olds who caused the most disruption and damage. They seemed to have less maturity and good-judgement than the "older" crowd.


.....Kelly :)

She au pairing for a family and travelled to France and Italy with them. She was allowed to hang out with local youth in the evenings after she was let off from duties.

Would "The Forbidden Fruit" idea come to mind!

NO, you cant, so anybody or most will just to prove that it can be done!

What is appaling to many Alums of my Chapter is going to the House and finding empty beer cans in the yard and in the bushes ourside. This does not count the many emptys or even partial emptys strewn all around the house:(
Trash cans are full and the dumpster is clear across the parking lot, wow, 50 feet away.:rolleyes:

The house was on the main drag of Pittsburg and made a bad representation of the Chapter.:o

I'm kind of torn on this issue.

On the one hand, the statistics do show a drop in alcohol-related traffic accidents in the 18-21 age group.

On the other hand, if you can be told to fight and die for your country, you should be able to drink a beer in it.

A 21yo drinking age is also very difficult to enforce, especially in a college environment. When I was in college, I had plenty of 21+ friends who were willing to buy for me or lend me their ID. I also went to many a fraternity party where you were carded at the door but the pledge tending bar would cheerfully ignore the big black X on your hand.

Maybe a graduated drinking age is the answer. You could bring back the 18yo drinking age for 3.2 beer. Or, I heard a proposal in the UK (where the drinking age is 18) that would allow 16 and 17yos to have a beer or a glass of wine (no hard liquor) at a pub as long as it was with a meal. It would be tough to enforce, though... you could always eat your dinner reallllly slowly... ;)

On a related note, when they raised the drinking age from 18 to 21 in New York, 18-20yos were not grandfathered. I remember seeing news stories where they showed liquor stores jammed with 18-20yos who were stocking up. They interviewed a guy who had just turned 18 and was stocking up on all the booze he wanted to get through the next three years...

Maybe they should do this: 18-20 year olds can have wine with dinner as long as they appear to be with their parents or adults old enough to be their parents. But then again, that too would be a little difficult to enforce!

ETA: Mentioning this because I'm carded much less often when I'm out with my parents than when I'm with friends.