Elimination of middle schools in NYC
 

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/03/03/education/03SCHO.html

For those who aren't registered, what they're planning to do is to get rid of middle schools and have old style elementary schools (K-8) or elementary schools and then middle and high school combos.

What do you think? Did you attend a middle school/junior high/intermediate school? Do you think the NYC school system should revert back to the old K-8? Here in Toronto, many of the older elementary schools (downtown-ish) are JK(JK is junior kindergarten which is for 4 year olds. We have 2 years of kindergarten here)-8, but once you get to further north, you may find JK-6 (or JK-5), 7/8 (some may be 6-8, and others 7-9) and then 9-12 (or 10-12). I went to private school and it went from JK-high school graduation. We were all housed in the same building, with the junior school (JK-6) in a separate wing. What do you think about schools that are 7-12 or 6-12? Some feel that older kids might be bad influence to 11 and 12 year olds, though the 7-12 or 6-12 system seems to work fine in private schools.

I attended a 7-12 public school, and I really can't imagine it any other way.

I think it made the high school "experience" on the whole easier... it just wasn't a big deal. The upper-level (grade 11/12) students kind of took care of the 7th and 8th graders to make it easier for them to transition to high school and protect them from the 9th graders who thought it was cool to beat up the "little kids".

When I was a sophomore we built a middle school that housed 6-8... both the high school and the middle school had more problems than the HS did with 7th and 8th graders.

I went to a parochial school that was k-8 and then obviously highschool for 9-12. it worked out fine for me :)

I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing - but it might be more of a "culture" shock for those incoming h.s. freshman to be leaving a land of kindergardners and 1st graders - ya know?

Any system has its advantages and disadvantages.

My personal preference would be to break it up K-6 and 7-12. I feel that 7th and 8th graders would benefit more from being in a high-schoolish environment rather than the same elementary-school environment they've been in since they were five. Plus, this means that gifted 7th and 8th graders can take advantage of the resources available in a high school - advanced courses, libraries with books chosen for older students, access to teachers who also teach honors or AP level classes to older students, etc. - without having to be bused around the district.

I don't think the 11- and 12-year-olds would cross paths with the 17-18 year old "bad influences" very often. They'd be together at lunch/recess and on the bus (and honestly, what 18yo rides the bus if he has access to a car? ;) ) but they wouldn't be mixing in most of their classes (maybe gym, art, or music, but not math, science, English, etc.)

Disclaimer: I am not a parent. I'm speaking from the experience I had growing up. I attended a small Catholic school that went K-8, but transferred to the public middle school when I entered sixth grade... one of the best decisions I've made.

ETA: The public schools where I grew up are broken up K-5, 6-8, and 9-12. It was pretty common for kids in the Catholic school to transfer to middle school when entering sixth grade.

The public schools where I live now are broken up K-3, 4-5, 6-8, and 9-12. That just seems like an awful lot of school-changing.

When they built a new Jr. High in my district, they changed the Jr High years from 6-9 instead of 7-9. It didn't work well at all. The 6th graders were not ready to be with 9th graders and the elementary teachers that had come over didn't care for the jr high environment either. Now the schools are elementary - K-6 (there is a K-3 and 4-6 school in the most populated area, the other 2 small elementaries are K-6), jr high - 7-9 and sr high - 10-12. The junior high and senior high are connected by a portal but they are treated as 2 separate buildings & the kids aren't allowed to go from one to the other w/ out a pass.

It's one thing if the school is very very small, but if not I don't like the idea of K-8 at all.

That's a very good point. It was a big culture shock for me to go from a little Catholic school where everyone knew everyone, to a big middle school where I knew maybe a couple of other kids. I got that out of my system in sixth grade; some of my classmates who stayed in the Catholic school had to face it when they entered high school or, worse, college. That's why I'd like to break it up K-6 and 7-12.

Here, many of the Jr. high schools (6-9) are being eliminated. Most districts are following the Middle School Concept.

Elem: K-5; Middle 6-8; High 9-12

It's usually in the rural areas where (7-12) are housed on the same campus.

I attended a 7-12 school and it was a very positive experience. Granted, it was a college prep magnet school, so a lot of problems that regular high schools face weren't a factor (if you couldn't make it academically or behaviorally, you were dropped and sent to your neighborhood school) Some of the nice things about my school were:

- Many older students acted as mentors for the younger students.
- There was a wider range of classes to take to suit each student’s academic levels. Many kids at my school were in the 7-9 grade range and taking AP Calculus A/B or B/C. They wouldn't get that opportunity at a regular jr. high/middle school.
- Students from the same family could go to the same school. The regular h.s. in the area started around 7:20, but middle school didn't start until almost 9 am. It can be a logistical mess to have kids catching 2 different busses, or driving them to school at 2 different times. (I know, I went to the magnet, and my sister went to the neighborhood school) Sending them to the same school can simplify that.
-More opportunities for foreign language instruction. It was possible to take 6 years of a foreign language at my school (thanks to the IB requirement of at least 5 years) where at the neighborhood schools my sister went to, the most you could take was 4 years.

I went from JK-8 at my elementary school and then 9-OAC (but there is no OAC anymore) at highschool. I like it that way.
I don't know if it really makes a difference if you split up the grades at different schools.

Honestly, I think this is a step in the wrong direction. There is a lot of research out there that states that students in grades 6-8 learn completely differently from both their elementary and high school counterparts. It's a crucial, in-between time.

I think the problem may be that the middle school concept wasn't carried out correctly, which is all too often the case. If done incorrectly, there are no tangible benefits.

Although I have learned a lot about middle schools through my mom who studied them extensively for her doctoral work, I am no middle school expert. I just hope that whatever the NYC schools do decide to go with works well for their children and their education.

I went to a K-8 school. Hated it. I especially hated not being able to switch classes. We had the same teacher and same classmates throughout the day. When I arrived at high school, I was in for a big culture shock. But it was cool to have recess twice a day in 6-8 grade, unlike the other middle schools.

My elementary school was from JK-8. But in grades 7 and 8 we switched classes. I did have the same classmates for every class, but we had different teachers for Gym (PE), math, science, family studies (home ec) and design and technology(shop).

I didn't mind having the same classmates because I had a pretty cool class. Also, my elemntary school only had about 650 students at the time.

Yeah, but at a 7-12 school, the middle school aged kids can get high school credits earlier. I know that at private schools in Ontario, it is possible for kids to have up to 3 credits going in to grade 9 (usually it's art, phys.ed and computers). Makes the new four year program less stressful for them if they get rid of some of the electives.

Edit: I attended a middle school for grade 6 and we'd have the same teacher for math, English and social studies, but a different teacher for other subjects (science, art, phys.ed, music, french, family studies/design and technology). You get different teachers for different subjects in grade 8 though.

Oh same with us, I meant that we didn't have different teachers for the core stuff (english, math, history).

Oh yes, that was the other annoying thing about the Catholic school I attended. In K-3, you had the same teacher and classmates throughout the day, for math, science, social studies, English, religion, etc. We had different teachers for gym, art, music, and computers, each of which met once a week, but we went to those classes all together.

<digression>

This also meant that the teacher had to teach to the level of the slowest student in the grade level (there was one class per grade level). I think we spent all of our first-grade math instruction time on addition. Not subtraction - addition. :rolleyes: I was sooo bored - but would my parents let me enroll in the public elementary school, where there were programs and resources for gifted children? Nooooo! It was more important to them that I knew the Stations of the Cross than that I knew how to subtract.

Did I mention I really hated Catholic school? :p

</digression>

I agree with Cluey. I don't like the idea of K-8 and I REALLY don't like the idea of 7-12. Like Sheila said, it may work well at smaller schools but I can't see it being a change for the better in most larger districts.

I know that I was nowhere near ready to be put in a school with high schoolers when I was in sixth, seventh or maybe even eighth grade. By the time I was in ninth I was fine and I had no troubles with the transition. Earlier than that I would have been scared out of my mind. There were definitely some things in my high school environment that I don't think I was ready to be exposed to at age 11 or 12 -- and neither were most of my classmates. I guess it's one thing if there is little interaction -- two separate wings of the same building, different lunch hours, etc. -- but in general I think that the negatives would outweigh the benefits at most large schools. The only real guaranteed positive result I can think of is that seventh and eighth graders would have better access to advanced classes.

But Cluey is right when she says that middle schoolers do best in a completely different environment from either elementary schoolers or high schoolers . . . I don't think that it's a good idea to push them into the high school learning environment or to force them to stay in the elementary school environment longer than ideal.

As an Elem. teacher in NYC for the public schools I have a few things to say on this topic. :) I'm not in favor of a K-8 building at all.
My biggest concern is as follows. Sadly, in many schools nationwide there are kids repeating a grade or two. This is a big problem in the city and in my school in particular. In any given class other then the Pre-K or K5 classes there is probably someone repeating that grade. Which could mean an 11 or 12 year old could be in 4th grade. Here are where some of the issues of growing up come into play. As some have said, these 'tweens' need to be in their own environment so that the best learning can occur. If they have earned the passing grades and promotions then by all means they deserve their own building!

At my school, which is Pre-K thru 4th grade, attached to the Elem building is the MS, grades 5-8. Each school has its own admin & staff. However, some of the staff members serve both the Elem & MS which means if the staff prsns office is in the Elem. School we have big teenagers walking thru our halls, etc etc etc. I think it makes some logical sense to keep 4th graders as the highest grade in an elem. building bc it is a high stress testing year. English Math & Science exams & passing grades are needed for promotion to 5th grade so I think some elem schools should end at 4th grade. In MS I'm a big fan of team teaching as well.

So in perhaps a vary unorganized way I said my 2cents here...

Cluey and sugar and spice have taken most of the words out of my mouth. :) As a middle school librarian (grades 6-8 now and grades 5-8 previously), I can tell you that there are things that 8th graders are reading and studying and talking about that the 6th grade students are just not ready for. I wouldn't want to have to separate my fiction into 6-8 and 9-12 levels, or even smaller divisions, depending on reading level and content-appropriateness level.

Middle school is where the kids start to realize that the world isn't black and white, but still (sometimes) have faith in their parents and teachers. They're ready to switch classrooms and have lockers, but need the support of a common team of teachers and students for 90% of their classes.

My school is broken up into grade level pods for this purpose-- 6th grade in one pod split up into 4 teams of ~90 kids, with the same teacher for reading, language arts, jaguar (think study hall plus reading plus character counts and service projects), and one of their core classes, and have two other team teachers for their other two core classes (math, sci, soc. studies). They have one period of PE/health, and one period of exploratory (8 different things like art, choir, tech, drama, careers, world cultures, keyboarding, etc. that they have for 4.5 week slots throughout the year). They *need* to be able to try out different elective classes while getting a lot of elementary-like support.

In 7th and 8th grade, they're on two teams of 150 kids each. Four core teachers (Eng., sci, SS, math) and one exploratory teacher that has the overflow study hall. More rotation, a little less structure. They can take 4 exploratories each of two periods, or have a year-long band or language class in 7th grade, and pick 2 exploratories in 8th grade.

This helps them find out what they're good at. The whole philosophy is gradually lessening the support while they see what they need and how to do it. LOTS of character education in my building, aimed more at service projects and responsibility. This is where they can start debating ethics and really start seeing the good and bad consequences of their choices in life.

When I was in middle school, it was 7th and 8th grade. I was in a team, but it didn't feel like the rest of the school had teams (it was a gifted program in a magnet school). We had 4 electives that we could take, but it was definitely confusing! And yet, it was nice to have that transition between elementary and middle and high school.

Kate,

What if younger students want to read high school level books but aren't able to because their library doesn't carry it? When I was in Grade 8, I was able to access the same sources as those who were in say, OAC (aka "Grade 13" or the fifth year of high school in Ontario. It doesn't exist anymore) and I found that it enhanced my learning abilities. None of the books were separated into learning and age appropriateness. But maybe the 7-12 system only works well in smaller districts and in schools where kids are of similar ability in terms of learning.

This is great for all those guys who used to date young girls. You have no idea how gross it is that you'll be in junior high and girl would get picked up in their cars by their 21 year old boyfriends. Now all the older messed up guys can just do that in the same building.

-Rudey

When I worked in adolescent pscych, I found that the kids coming from school districts that were 7-12 did everything a little bit earlier. Granted, I was exposed to a special population, but when the 7th graders were exposed to the smoking, drinking, drugs, dating scene, gang involvement, etc. earlier, they tended to start these things earlier. Their idea of who their peer group is definitely changed as they identified with the older kids. From a social/emotional development view point, I believe they are better off separated. I also think that K-8, conversely, would stifle the social/emotional development of those 7th and 8th graders. The school district my kids attend has K-5, 6-8, and 9-12 and I like it that way.

On a side note, my daughter is in 4th grade, tested out at a 12th grade reading level and is encouraged to read 7th/8th grade level books in school (of which there are plenty). There are also public libraries for more advanced books. As one of her teachers pointed out (when she was in second grade).. just because a child is capable of reading at a much higher level, doesn't mean the content/subject matter of much higher level books is appropriate for them. She told a story of a 2nd grade boy who was working in the 5th grade level for reading and picked out "Are You There God, It's Me, Margaret?" to read. She got a call from that young boy's mom!

Dee

Dee,

What do you have to say about kids who attend small schools that go K-12?

Slight hijack/

What's worng with that book. I have never read but it doesn't strike me as the type of book that's inappropriate for young children. What's the book about?

Which school do you teach here in NYC? You can PM me. Depending on the school, I may have some questions for you.

I can't believe you've never read it! (God I feel old) It's about a 12 year old girl getting her first period.

Thanks.

No, I've never read. Just was never interested. I think the title put me off.

I'm curious what the big transition you guys are talking about is? As I mentioned earlier in the thread... I attended a 7-12 school, and am not sure what the big transition was :)

I went to Catholic school from 1st through 6th grades and private school from 7th through 12th grades. Catholic school had first through eighth grades. Private school had grades K through 12, but they had a lower school K to 6 and upper school 7 to 12. I am really not sure how public schools work in NYC since I never attended them.

I liked private school. I got to meet the big kids and be in the same clubs as them. The private school I attended was more challenging than my Catholic school and most local public schools. I never really thought about the social ramifications. I was just happy to be there.

Hey P-n-C,
When I attended public school here in NYC it was like this:
Pre-K-6
7-8 (sometimes 9 depending on the school)
9-12

Now, it's:
Pre-K-5 (I'm still trying to understand this logic :confused:
6-8
9-12
There's one middle school, Museum School, which goes from 7-12.

The Dept of Ed have a whole bunch of new schools developing so who knows what's gonna happen as far as the structure. My daughter is in Catholic school which is pretty small. I would love to get her in private school in a few years (I need a serious cash flow!!!)

But you went to a fairly small and rural school, right? Which I think poses a much different, and easier, transition than larger suburban/urban schools.

Here's some stuff at my school:

-Drugs and alcohol were MUCH more prevalent. In middle school I only knew one person who admitted to smoking pot. By the time I was in ninth grade, I knew a number of people who smoked up daily. Ditto alcohol -- almost none of the popular crowd drank in middle school, but by halfway through ninth grade almost all of them had tried it, and many of them drank regularly. A lot of that had to do with availability -- they might have smoked or drank more in middle school if they had had the access to it, but they didn't. If the school had been 7-12 it would have been much easier for them to acquire what they wanted. Like AGDee said, kids at 7-12 schools tend to start earlier on things like that.
- Sex was also much more prevalent. In middle school there was very little pressure but once you got to high school there was the knowledge that some of your 15-, 16-, 17-year-old friends and classmates were having sex and it became a much bigger issue. By high school EVERYTHING was about sex. Basically the same thing as the drug issue.
- High school teachers taught VERY differently than middle school teachers. Middle school teachers were pretty much just a couple steps above elementary school teachers. Most of my high school teachers basically treated us as if we were grown up. I can remember my first day of freshman biology and being shocked when my instructor swore in the middle of his lecture.
- In general the atmosphere was just much more INTENSE than middle school, academically, socially, culturally, everything. I would not have been prepared for it in seventh grade -- but I loved it and thrived in it in ninth.

I hate to bring this up over and over again, but there are drug, alcohol and sex issues in private schools as well. However, the 7-12 system seems to work there (and these are schools that are in urban areas, including Manhattan).

However most private schools tend to be much smaller than the larger public schools where the atmosphere is much different. This isn't universally true but it's true in 95 percent of the cases . . . and I have never seen 7-12 work as well as 6-8/9-12 (or 7-9/10-12) in larger schools.

In smaller schools, whether it's because they're private or because they're rural or both, tend to have a big "everybody knows everybody" atmosphere that bigger schools don't have. This will tend to speed up the exposure to sex/drugs regardless of whether or not the middle and high school are separated -- and it makes the transition much less intimidating when you're going from a school where you already know everyone to another school where you know most of the people there. Smaller schools also have the advantage of students developing closer relationships with teachers/coaches/whatever -- for example, one of my friends that went to a small private school had one Spanish teacher for all four years of high school whereas I had four.

At larger schools and especially larger public city schools the transition to high school can be very intimidating for a number of reasons beyond just the sex & drugs factor. Trust me that had I gone from an elementary school-like atmosphere straight to atmosphere like the one at my high school, I would have probably dropped out of school. It's just too much of a jump. At smaller schools it is much different.

I think the point that is being missed is the difference in students in middle grades. They're stuck at an in-between age and learn completely differently. They want their teachers to love them, but they also want so desperately to grow up. It is because of all of these intangibles that the middle school theory was developed.

I think about middle school as a bridge between elementary and high school. For some students, it is their first time learning to juggle different subjects with several different teachers with different teaching styles.

Will you turn out to be a three-headed monster if you are not in a middle school? No, I don't think anyone is saying that. But, if you have the opportunity to make the transistion from elementary school to high school a little easier, why not do it? I think that sometimes we get so caught up with the idea that the way we grew up was great that we lose focus that there is always room for improvement.

If you want more information on the middle school concept, read one of the many books by Paul George. He's been on the cutting edge of middle school since the 1980s.

I PMed you. :)

I teach in a K-6 school which was a K-5 school last year. I can now say that I feel strongly that it should be K-5, 6-8, 9-12. 6th graders do not belong in the same building with the younger kids. At the same time, 9th graders do not belong with the 6-8th graders either! I completely agree with the middle school/intermediate concept, not the jr. high concept.


where I went to school, they just decided to house 5th grades separately from all other grades...that is effed up :(

Some systems actually start high school in what many of us may consider "non standard" high school grades (9-12 or 10-12). In BC, Canada, elementary school is K-7 and high school is 8-12. But I guess things are different if one is raised from a very young age knowing that.

Also being in the education field, I agree with Sugar and Spice and some others. With the way society is going, I seriously doubt 6-8th graders need to be grouped with highschoolers. I remember when I was in high school, there were several male seniors who preyed on freshmen girls because they knew they wanted to be popular and accepted. I think students need to be kept in an age group that is conducive to their particular developmental stage.

I guess I can see that. My school was very small (and rural) ... about 400 kids total from 7-12.

Most of the things you listed (drugs, sex, etc) weren't factors even in our high school. Very very very few kids drank, and from what I could tell... not many of them were sexually active, either. I can tell I'm going to be in for a huge shock when my child starts school... I grew up in education Utopia, and it's hard for me to think that there are places where 15 year olds drink and have sex :)

As far as the culture... I don't know, I guess I didn't really notice the difference in teaching styles, but I don't know if that means they treated us like adults in em. school or like little kids in high school... it was just somethng that never crossed my mind.

Is there really that much difference between a 12 year old (7th grader) and 14 year old (9th grader), though? I guess where I'm getting lost is the big emotional difference between the two... :(

I knew practically half the people in my class when I went to highschool. There were only 3 schools in our catchment area so I went to highschool with almost everyone from my grade 8 class.
I didn't find it a big adjustment and I knew people in higher grades because I knew them from my public school.

At my school, there was a LOT of emotional difference between the average 12-year-old and the average 14-year-old. People tend to forget how much kids change from year to year -- especially during the middle school years. A 12-year-old might easily be prepubescent and playing with Barbies, but two years later she's got hips and breasts, has started smoking and is spending her after-school time making out in the back of some 17-year-old's car.

I don't think that means that every student who goes to a 7-12 school is going to turn out badly, obviously, but like Cluey said -- it's a lot easier for most middle schoolers to have their own environment at that age and if we can help them with that, why not?