National VS Local Debate
 

Hi...

I'm currently in the process of pledging to be a founder of the beta chapter to a local sorority. I'm sooooo excited!! But I was looking around GC, and thought of a good debate...

For those of you who are in nationals, what reasons would you give for it being better or having more advantages than a local?

For those of your being in a local...same question but vice versa.

I noticed that some of these posts started months ago or last year! Lol...I thought I would post something new (hopefully)...

Thanks for your input...

What I like most about being in an International organization is knowing that, no matter where I move, I still have leadership opportunities and alumnae chapters/clubs to meet new sisters.

Dee

If you look carefully, locals over time tend not to be as stable as chapters of a larger org. a benefit exists to the standardization of rules, leadership schools etc.
National Fraternities are much more expensive but on balance they serve a good function.

Re: It depends on the purposes
 

That's not true. Some, and Phi Kappa Psi was the first, were founded to be national. Tau Delta Phi was founded by friends, in Greenwich Village, who were attending different colleges.

Also nationals are inherently superior with regard to stability, networking opportinities, organized leadership development (locals simply don't offer this, and I'm not referring to leadership opportunities,) continous organizational improvement (locals tend to be caught in a time warp from when they were founded, and are unable to reevaluate themselves, and implement improvement. This is why they have a difficult time surviving.)

There are some locals that are over 100 years old, but they are very, very rare. If you cherish your local fraternal experience, and want to see it survive for many generations, being part of a national organization insures the maximum chance that this will happen.

I was answering the question from the point of-these girls have beta chapter now. They are still local, but expanding. Should they seek an already established international or should they continue expanding on their own? That was where I was coming from. I possibly missed the point of the question?

True-it is rare to find locals that are very old. But I was thinking specifically of the Agonians-founded 1892, Clionians (sp?) -1872 , Alpha Delta Epsilon 1886, Sigma Gamma Phi 1892 etc. and the girls at Lee University in Sigma Nu Sigma and Delta Zeta Tau-they've been around since 1964. I am sure there are more that I am not familiar with. But I said before, I may have missed the mark on the point of the conversation. I was just thinking there are pros and cons to both depending on what the purposes of your group are.

:)

One thing to add to the conversation here would be risk management policies and insurance. Nationals always have them. As far as I know, locals seldom do.

Insurance can be expensive. However, that one time where your organization gets sued, it can come in really handy. In many cases, members of an organization, especially officers can be held personally liable for what happens in the chapter -- even when they had no knowledge of what occured.

Of course insurance has a con -- it's expensive. So that's the risk you take. It's not nearly so high in sororities as fraternities though.

Diamond Delta, as for organizational stability, you may be able name one or two (and I'd guess accross the entire US, there are probably less than 20) locals that are 100+ years old. On the other hand, there are literally hundreds of national GLO chapters that are over 100 years old and still in operation.

What's more, if a national chapter closes due to poor recruitment or other circumstances, most likely, at some point, it will be reopened. Locals on the other hand stand a slim/none chance of ever being reopened.

A local is defined as being on one campus only. If there are 2, or more chapters, then it is either a regional, national, or international organization.

Also, the regional sororities in upstate New York, that were cited, may be an endangered species. The SUNY system has had it with these groups, and the dozens of locals that are on these campuses. They may be derecognized within a decade.

Housing might be a factor, if Greeks have houses on your campus. As a national, you are more likely to be able to get the financing needed to build or renovate.

ktsnake and russellwarshay, what great insight!:cool:

The pitfalls of Locals are many. Afilliating with a National have many features that are not available to Locals. Risk Management guidelines and Insurance being just two.

Granted, I think All Nationals as we know them today started as locals, only one Chapter. There was one Fraternity that Started as A group of Locals became a National Fraternity. Oh, they are no longer a Fraternity but highly Respected! TKN Merged with LXA in 1939.

I am also the Founder of a Local, Beta Chi!:)

Now, throw in the Hazing Standpoint if it is neccessary, well that is asnother whole ball of string!:(

Being a member of an International fraternity, I like being able to share a bond with 'total strangers', who went to different schools. For example, last month I visited Boston, and went to our Charges up there (we have four active Charges in Boston), and it is neat to see what we have in common and what not. *Ehem* and they offered me place to stay, totally accepted me as a brother for parties and hang out - which you couldn't find at local, since local=one chapter in one school.
I haven't talked about our International Conference and all Regional meetings - other discussions to be an international fraternity/sorority member.

I concur with many of the fellow greeks that have already posted. I travel to FL a lot, so when I go down there I get treated by my sorority sisters like I have lived there all along...It's great knowing whereever I go, I will have sisters to take care of me.

Thanks for all the great input :) Part of the question was indeed about the pros and cons. However, I do feel as if locals are almost looked down upon from some of the comments. Maybe I am not reading those right...but even still, I'd like to defend my local :) A local and a national both have the same purpose (hopefully) and strive for the same things. Locals do not have the financial backing that nationals do, but tend to have more say and input. What is a sorority or fraternity though? Is it completely the vast amount of people that are from different states? Is it the alums or money factors? Is it having establishments of over a 100 years (which is nice though)? No...i think a sorority or fraternity should be defined as having people with similar interests in the same group willing to commit to each other to the enrichment of themselves as well as the community. Within the confines of those words, i do feel that BOTH locals and nationals co-exist if that is the mentality. I am a little saddened that nationals seem to be considered "better". Unfortunately, I do not know about hazing. But I have heard the opposite..that hazing occurs more in nationals. Then again, I am fairly new to this and could be quite wrong. I guess to sum up what I was trying to say...is that local sororities/fraternities care just as deeply for their foundation as an organization as well as the people they stand beside. I believe that their are advantages and disadvantages to both. But either way, the people make the sorority...at least in my opinion. We may be smaller, but we care and strive to be as successful as national GLOs do.

Thanks for reading my two cents. :)

*SuperJilly*

ETA After rereading this entry, I would like to say that by no means am I saying that those of you in nationals do not think locals are just as dedicated. I was just putting that out there. I do not want to sound like i'm putting words into anyone's mouth...or post. :)

nationals are better

I have been in both a local and a national sorority. I joined a local that later became a chapter of AEPhi.

As a local, you get to make your own rules without being answerable to a national. That can be abused (read: hazing) but isn't always, and wasn't in my local's case. You also don't have to pay national dues; while my roommates were forking over $600+ for their pledge semester, I paid about $100. ;)

As a chapter of a national, you have a lot more support. You don't have to create your own ritual, find a philanthropy to support, figure out your own rush events, etc. You can also go to new places and bump into sisters, which is considerably less likely if you're in a local.

I dont think anyone on GC is looking down on Locals as there are quite a few Local members here.

Just as aephi Alum said, one of the biggest pluses of being in a National, is the suport you can get from not only your Local Sisters, but the ones all over the world!:cool:

While I have only met two GC LXAs, I have been in contact with many by phone. LXAAlum helped me refinance my home and never met him!

Sent a Badge to a Brother from a different Chapter who lost his and a Embroideried Coat of Arms to one to celebrate his becoming an Advisor to a new Colony. That to me is the biggest difference between a Local and a National, the numbers of Brothers/Sisters to be friends with!:)

But, you pose an interesting point, You are a Founder of the Second Chapter!:) Who lnows what a bigger step can be taken! I sometimes wondered if I could have expanded My Local toward a National standard!


Anyway, the Greatest of Luck to You and Your Sisters!

One thing to add to the conversation here would be risk management policies and insurance. Nationals always have them. As far as I know, locals seldom do.

Insurance can be expensive. However, that one time where your organization gets sued, it can come in really handy. In many cases, members of an organization, especially officers can be held personally liable for what happens in the chapter -- even when they had no knowledge of what occured.

Of course insurance has a con -- it's expensive. So that's the risk you take. It's not nearly so high in sororities as fraternities though.

Diamond Delta, as for organizational stability, you may be able name one or two (and I'd guess accross the entire US, there are probably less than 20) locals that are 100+ years old. On the other hand, there are literally hundreds of national GLO chapters that are over 100 years old and still in operation.

What's more, if a national chapter closes due to poor recruitment or other circumstances, most likely, at some point, it will be reopened. Locals on the other hand stand a slim/none chance of ever being reopened.

Easy!

While locals may not be watched as closely as nationals, and just because the locals on your campus may treat their sisters like crap by hazing doesn't mean that ALL LOCALS haze. I know this has been argued over and over again in the risk mgmt thread, but generalizations like this really irritate me.

And like Jilly said earlier, I have also heard about hazing in nationals. It's just something that everyone knows is wrong but since the definition is so broad, people push the limits all the time, regardless of their GLO.

I am part of, I guess, a regional sorority. We have a beta chapter. I couldn't be happier.

Ditto

Thank you Jen, I am in a national, and this type of thinking irritates me too. Hazing takes place in all groups, although since the rules have gotten so strict in nationals chapters can be closed for "hazing" when it's something like interviews that is relatively benign.

Basically, the best thing about being local is the autonomy, and knowing where your money goes. The best thing about being national is having someplace else to turn (other than your chapter alums) if you are having problems, and the networking opportunities.

my campus doesn't have locals, so i only had the choice to go national. i like having multiple alumnae groups around the country. when i moved to boston, i knew two people in the state. it was very easy to meet people through the alumnae group and get settled into my new life.

yea- actually i have seen the opposite to be true- at my school the nationals are serious serious hazers and we are not anywhere near what they do- i actually pledged a national before dropping and going to my local because the hazing was just too bad... i know this is not always the case- and locals do get a bad name for going "unchecked" but keep in mind that this is not always the case... and certain chapters of nationals are overt hazers more so then others...

as far as the benefits i see as being local- i like not having to pay as much dues- i pay about $200 a semester and that includes mixers- shirts and rush that we don't ahve to pay out of pocket...

their are good and bad sides to having own rules- we have a consititution that has been in place since we began which is modified each year through a committee to change what needs to etc- so their are standards- and we can change rituals and we also have long standing ones... i guess the free power requires more responsibility to keep ourselves in line and not allowing everything to go to hell...

we have an alumni association instead of the national support- which can be good and bad- they deal with us on a more personal level which is nice- but they don'thave the funds to back us all the time- they do waht they can though and thats good enough for us:) (our house is paid for since the 60s so we own it)

Not sure how to word this. With regional, national, and international chapters of GLOs, family members may attend different campus and be a member of the same GLO.

For example:

Dad is ABC at Big State U.
Son A is ABC at Private U.
Son B (brother to Son A) is ABC at Out-of-State U.
Grandson is ABC at Regional State U.

I'm going to have to question your observation, unless it can be independently verified. You go to SUNY Cortland, and like most of the SUNY colleges, the reputation for hazing lies with the locals. I've discussed this issue with SUNY deans, and they would all back me up.

If this is going to turn into the umpteenth "locals all haze and they all suck, nationals are all perfect" debate, I would just as soon see this thread closed or have Jilly delete it. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

As someone who knows a bit about SUNY schools, everyone up there hazes, not just locals and not just nationals. It's rampant and it's going on right now as we speak. One is no worse than the other, and their system needs to do something to try and lessen it in both sides!

As for the national/local debate, locals are great, so are nationals. Our campus had 5 of each. Hazing was bad in almost all of the houses, except 2 (one being mine!), and I didn't really see the benefit of the national organization until later. But looking back, I would never give back my sorority experience in my international organization for the lack of rules a local can provide.

Well said... it's not like this has never been discussed before. :rolleyes:

I really don't want this thread to be deleted or closed. If we're all apart of a greek system, we should just all respect each other --local or national orgs alike. It's easy to agree to disagree....and maybe that's where we shall stand.

I have to agree that hazing are in nationals.
Nationals cost too much and hence "buying the friendship" Let me ask you something, you go to someones house you dont know in another state, whatever, and they accept you? that is buying friends...I dont care who you are I dont trust strangers in my house!
Two, Locals do NOT have to have a quota, i have also seen nationals shut down cuz they didnt have at least 50 members.
Three, too many people, its not a real togetherness.
Four, as for the house, sac state doesnt have greek row, only TWO greeks have a house. Also I have notice more HAZING and RAPES and UNDERAGE drinking in houses.
With locals, yes, we can change the rules for the better, hazing was accepted 50 years ago and the rules of nationals go back like a hundred years. Also nationals tend to discriminate based on looks, money or/and power.
Five, nationals seem to be obssessed with legacies. I honestly dont think it should matter if family was in ABC cuz that doesnt mean the child is the same as the parents.

I joined my local because I liked the women in that group the best. They were the ones that I felt most akin to and comfortable with. I also really, really like the idea of my alum being from the same school as me. We all went to Beloit. We all know the same pains of no dinner on Sunday nights, inside jokes about various aspects of Beloit, etc. I think that being in a local maybe makes you closer to your alum.

Also, being a local, we have more flexibility in which groups and organizations we do philanthropy for. We've held charity events and volunteered for many different local organizations without fear of having to set aside money and time for one larger and/ or nationally known group.

As stated before, most locals tend to have lower fees than nationals. This means I don't have to be more stringent with my budget, but that's not a huge matter in this, as I hear that almost all organizations have ways for those who can not pay higher fees to still become part of the organization (including mine).

As per the hazing issue, if you're founding this chapter and you decide to go local/ regional, then you will have a large say in your ritual and you CAN prevent hazing from being a part of your chapter. I would recommend going to anti-hazing websites to see different definitions of hazing, and if your school has an anti-hazing policy, I would read up on that and see how your school defines it. Then you can make a better decision about what you would like to do for that.

But ultimately, I have to agree with the people who said that it depends on your campus. Here, my sorority is simply the best. That's why I joined it. I didn't know about the whole national versus local thing; I just knew that I was joining a sorority. It just happened to be local, and I love it that way. If going national fits in better with your school, then do it, but right now it sounds like you might want to try the regional thing first. You can establish your group and look at different nationals to decide what is best for your group. No national group is going to say, "Oh, you used to be a local, we don't want you."

But love the locals. If you don't love all of them, just love mine. :)

I definately agree with what has been said here, I love my sorority, but if they had been local, I would still love them! I know it doesn't happen everywhere, but I picked my chapter because I liked the girls in it, and not for any national reputations. If the same girls had been in a local chapter, I would have picked them just the same.

However, now that I'm alum I love having a national structure to fall back on, and meeting new Chi Omegas. I suppose you can say I "bought" my freindship, but my initation fee was well worth it!! I have met quite a few women through my sorority that I would not have talked to otherwise, and it has enriched my life tremendously. I also like that wherever I move in the United States, and even the world, there are alumna there I can go and meet. The opportunity for such a social network is amazing, and I feel lucky to have it.
-M

I wouldn't say that being able to visit (and being welcomed by)another chapter of your national organization means that you are "buying the friendship." It's a great way to network, and since (for example) all members are tied together by shared traditions and history, you already have something in common that money CAN'T buy. My chapter has had visitors from other chapters, and it has been really fun to show them around and get to know them.

Maybe this is a west coast thing, but I know that my chapter is VERY diverse in looks AND finances.

Most of this post makes about as much sense as the "all locals haze" myth.



As for me, I ended up at a school that doesn't allow locals (although we did back in the "olden days" -- I've seen yearbook pictures) so it wasn't really a choice I ultimately had to make. However, at the University of Minnesota (my first school), and later when contemplating where to transfer to when choices include Beloit College and UW-Stevens Point, I would have had to make that decision since all three schools have a mix of nationals and locals. I was leaning more towards nationals and would have looked at them first, but I certainly would have picked a local over a national if I had liked the girls more. However, assuming all other factors were roughly equal I would have picked a national over a local.

Here are some advantages I think locals have over nationals:
- lower dues, which definitely would have helped if I had gone to Beloit, which is expensive enough ;)
- a really great sense of history. Of course, some nationals have this and not all locals do, but the ones that do -- wow. I remember reading the Theta Pi Gamma website and wanting to pledge them for the story of their history alone -- haha! I feel like most national sororities either didn't keep good enough track of their history, sanitized it for posterity, or just weren't as interesting as the locals.
- As veemers said, there is something neat about knowing that every single one of your alums shared a similar experience in that you all went to the same school.

Conversely, why I was more interested in a national:
- the national presence. I love driving down the highway and seeing Tri Delta bumper stickers on cars, I love coming to GC and talking to sisters from UCLA and Stockton and everywhere in between, I love references to our name in movies and books and TV. Even when it's less than positive, like the portrayal in "Eating the Chesire Cat," it still just makes me laugh.
- the hazing thing. Although clearly not all locals haze and I have no clue if the locals at the schools I was looking at do, in Wisconsin locals are definitely more likely to (at least when it comes to sororities -- with fraternities it's pretty much even regardless of national/local status). I would have done my research with whatever group I decided to join, though. Nationals have the added bonus of, when it comes to hazing, if things get really out of control there is some sort of recourse you can take (by calling HQ) but that is not always the case with locals.
- In terms of Greek involvement at Minnesota where most of the system is national, I feel like belonging to a local sorority would limit the involvement I had in the Greek system. I wanted to be involved in as much as I possibly could and get to know as many people as I possibly could, and I'm not sure this would have happened in a local sorority. (At the Wisconsin schools where locals are more common, I don't think this would be a problem.)

My two cents:
I was fixed on remaining local. Hopefully become big and having other chapters all over the nation. It was a big dream. But after browsing several web sites and reading posts on GC, thinking and looking over my sorority's present state, I realized that going National would be a good thing.
1. Not only will you have sisters in your immediate chapter but you'll have "sisters" in Cali, NY, NH, OH or the college a couple hours away, and almost every state in the US.
2. You're a known name. Almost everyone knows of Phi Sig or DZ or the Ques or Delta Sigma Theta or Sig Ep or Theta Xi...you're known...
3. You get alum support-with a local, depending on how long you've been around, you don't have that.
4. Conventions-with locals...if youre the only chapter...you catch my drift...
5. You can order things out of Greek101, GreekConnections, and all the others that if you were local you wouldn't be able to. Like Greek101 has these cute laundry bags-for Nationals only. things like shot glasses with crests and stuff...
I can go on and on but I am determined to go National. Local has its perks but I know I'll enjoy affiliating with a National over being local.

There is definitely more hazing in locals than in nationals. Especially with sororities. There is a reason why the trend to eliminate locals in greek systems is unabated, while the trend to ban greek systems has greatly diminished. This isn't an opinion, but fact. Your one local may not haze, but your local experience does not give you insight into greek systems across the country. Also, because you are in a local, you do not have access to information about greek systems across the country, except by hearsay.

Hazing enters greeks systems from external experiences (high school hazing is, by far, the most common way) and is spread through a greek system by observation.

A chapter of a national GLO may have its parent organization to help bring about reform. A local has no one to answer to, and no one to teach reformed chapter management. A local that hazes, will continue to haze, and continue to exert a negative influence on the local greek system's greek community. This is why many greek systems seek to eliminate locals.

With regard to "buying friends," what defines that? Paying less in a local isn't, but paying more in a national is? That's a foolish and indefensible position. The extra money paid isn't for friends, its for liability insurance, and chapter support services. These things are why chapters of national groups that fold may later be revived, but locals that fold are usually gone forever.

Concerning "quota," fraternities don't have this. Some local sororities do have quota. It depends on whether that group belongs to the local PanHel. Also, non-NPC national groups may exist outside a system that requires compliance with quota and total.

If you meet a relative for the first time, do you treat them like strangers? If you meet a sorority sister from your local, who was initiated 10 years before you, do you treat her like a stranger? If you do, you live a bizarre and paranoid life. Extending feelings of closeness to someone, with a shared background, whom you just met isn't "buying friends." Its called "being human."

No NIC or NPC group, with which I'm aware, has ever had hazing as part of ritual or standard operating procedure. Many locals do. Again, the difference is that nationals have an institutional capability to eliminate hazing, that while not always effective, is at least usually effective. Locals don't eliminate hazing. They just distance themselves from their college administrations.

Finally, national groups are not obsessed with legacies. Some chapters place a premium on legacies, and that varies with the region.

Wow! Most articulate, Russell Warshay! I agree & wish I could have stated my thoughts that eloquently.

My university had only NPC chapters, and no local sororities. I went through formal recruitment and today, I am a member of Alpha Delta Pi Sorority, an organization that was founded as the first "local" back in 1851, and eventually became international!

Based on my experience in an NPC sorority, I am obviously biased as to why I prefer and would be more likely to promote an international or national sorority to those considering Greek Life.

As an alumna volunteer, the benefits to being a member of an international sorority are many. I can volunteer in a variety of functions, travel, network and exchange ideas with women of our organization all over the world. I also enjoy being able to be a part of the NPC, which widens the network and idea exchange.

I am sure there are 100s of involved local alumnae, and I am not disputing their involvement. But as a member of an NPC, it has been instilled in me that the sorority is more than a 4 year experience. It is for a lifetime and the opportunities for involvement are as diverse and abundant as our membership.

Go on with your Beta chapter! You are laying the foundation for a legacy that has the potential to go past your lifetime and preserve your vision for all time. :)

Girl, you rock!
:)
This is EXACTLY what I would have said and how I feel.
I chose my house because I had fun at the events and the girls were cool. I wasn't thinking at the time... gee, I wonder if the alumna in Georgia can get me a job if I move -or- gee, I wonder when I can go to national conferences and meet zillions of other sisters I don't know but they all have the same letters and values I do. As a lil freshman, I wanted a place to get to know people, to have fun, play sports, and make college go easier. And I found a house that did that at half the price (very good for someone who didn't work thruout college.) I chose greek life because it was suggested by a family member. I probably could have gotten a great college experience via another club or something if I wanted to. But I went greek... and voila... it just happened to be in a local.

I do have a question about nationals though. Do national sororities have 'caps' on how much you pay for a formal bid and restrictions on where the formal takes place? My cousin is an AXO and said she never paid more than 5 buck for her formal and I pay anywhere between $40-80 per couple in my sorority. And I have heard about another chapter getting 'fined' because they uped formal bids to make it nicer. Is it just Sac State or are there really restrictions like this?

Some sororities add the cost of the formal in to your semesterly dues, some don't. (I think this is called "assessing" and that could be another whole thread :D.) I know that ours was usually about the same price as yours - not everybody went so adding the price into dues would not have went over very well.