Deferred Rush Under Discussion at UNC-Chapel Hill
 

The Tar Heel reports that the Board of Trustees of the University of North Carolina is asking for input on the possibility of deferred recruitment.

Story is at:

http://www.dailytarheel.com/vnews/di.../4045e4a96bec6

Concerns mentioned include parental complaints about time-consuming -- and apparently unnecessary -- activites required of new members.

Deferred recruitment seems to be a hot topic whenever it comes up, with people tending to be very pro or very con, so I thought this might be of interest. As I recall, deferred recruitment is also being considered at Michigan - Ann Arbor.

The member of the Board of Trustees who is asking for input and discussion of deferred recruitment -- Russell Carter -- does not appear to be a totally-out-of-left-field guy. Biographical info on the Internet indicates that he, his father, and his son are all Chapel Hill alums, with strong ties to the university (for example, they gave a Pulitzer Prize that his family's newspaper won back in 1952 to UNC to be put on display in the journalism school).

If prominent or fairly prominent trustees are hearing complaints from parents, and if, as an IFC rep mentions in the article, some of the GLOs at Chapel Hill have either minor or major problems ... maybe it is time for thoughtful discussion of possible changes.

Do the majority of students live that close that their parents are constantly keeping tabs on them, or have the babies not cut the apron strings yet?

If they're making pledges do their laundry and such I agree that they shouldn't - I just don't understand why/how these parents are so up in their kids' business and furthermore, why they think deferred would solve any problems.

I've heard the same thing about Indiana University of Pennsylvania. BUT, NPC's campus visit determined they are sticking with fall formal for now. It's interesting because they are one of the only state schools in PA that does fall formal. Most can't take first semester freshmen. I think that West Chester can though.

H -

Clarion can take 1st semester freshmen but AFAIK they have COB in the fall, which is stupid. West Chester has pretty big numbers, I don't know if it's because of that or not.

I didn't know NPC actually went to IUP - PM me some more details :).

Well...
I am a sophomore at Furman University in Greenville, SC, and we have deferred recruitment for both sororities and fraternities in January. I do not have a definite opinion supporting either side, so I will give you some thoughts:

"BOT members expressed concerns about fall rush because of the numerous commitments required for new members in various Greek organizations and the difficulty in becoming acclimated to the University."

- Isn't a greek organization's time committment what you put into it? I know that there are a ton of mixers with every other group, but you can choose to attend... This isn't only during the fall semester, but it also happens after accepting a bid after deferred recruitment! The time committment is still a change from before accepting a bid, so really this can't be used as an argument for pro-deffered. And how can you say that a student is "acclimated" to college after only 1 semester? I know for me, as well as many people I know, it took an entire year.

- Doesn't a Greek Organization help you adjust better? You have a support system that has been through the same experiences that you are going through...

"Jim Tatum, chairman of IFC's Fraternity Alumni Advisory Committee, said 40 percent to 50 percent of UNC fraternities have minor problems involving pledges being forced to do inappropriate personal errands for fraternity members. He said, such problems are significant in 5 percent to 7 percent of fraternities."

- Do they think moving to deferred will help this? Because pledges will still be asked to do "inappropriate personal errands" no matter when recruitment occurs...

"They determined that deferred rush created a semester-long "dirty rush" that hindered the intellectual climate and also caused Greek organizations to suffer financially."

- "Dirty rushing" does occur with deferred, some organizations know exactly what their bid list will look like - even before recruitment has occured...

I'm sure there is a lot more to their argument for deferred, but it just seems to me that the arguments that they are using are applicable to either recruitment style.

I'm going chime in quickly and say I wish we had formal in the fall. We are defered right now, and I'm going to estimate that 75% of the girls who go through formal (who are usually freshman) know when they walk into Pahellenic Registration what sorority they want. They get a bias based on rumors (IMHO from the fraternities/non Greek upperclassmen) about what sorority is "the best, the prettiest, the ones who party the most, the smartest, the weakest" etc with the superlatives.
I collected the money this year from formal, and I can't tell you how many girls were walking around going "Well, I hear ABC was_______, which is why I only want DEF" or my favorite "I heard XZY and KLM haze, but I still want to pledge KLM" (yes, someone really said that). While I know girls should not pass judgement on rumor, it happens.

To me, formal in the fall just makes much more sense. There is less of a chance of an organization being seen as "weaker" or "stronger" or "better" or whatever.

I DEFINITELY see this as a problem and I'll have to echo other people when I say, what difference will deferred really make in satiating already over-protective parents??

I think that the Universities should look into why parent's don't support GLO activites before they decide to defer rush or give GLO's the boot. Parents can have different reasons for disliking activites, some founded, and some unfounded.

For instance, my mother has always been against my involvement in dramatic theater. She thinks it is a waste of time, and that it does not cultivate any useful (read: employable) skills. Many many many people disagree with her, and have lots of good reasons to do so. If my parents caught wind I involved myslef in drama in college, they would have gone nuts. Same thing with GLO's. My mother was in a GLO in college that didn't offer her much. My Dad loved his fraternity (DKE), but he thought they drank waaaaay too much, and wanted me to stay away from it. However, my experiece with Chi Omega changed their minds so much, they tried very hard to get my sister to rush when she went to college.

If they thought even for a minute that my involvemnt in any extra curricular activity was going to hinder my ability to get a job or into grad school, I would have never heard the end of it.

You only put in deferred Rush if you want to hurt GLO numbers. It can't possibly help numbers.

So the only reason to defer Rush is if you think Greeks are bad on your campus and you want to diminish their impact.

Deferred Rush at a state school is actually technically ilegal because they are denying you the right to associate.

I have seen a lot of arguments on both sides . . but the bottom line is whether you want to hurt the numbers GLO's can recruit.

Thats the argument that Fraternity/sorority members have to center on. They shouldn't let themselves get caught up in elaborate rationalizations.

James Is Right
 

Deferred rush at a state school will be found illegal and unenforcable, if challenged. If you go to the UNC-Chapel Hill Greek Life site, you'll see that the chapters are terribly micro-managed, administrators instructing the chapters even as to exactly when they can/must initiate their members.
I can't fault any university for wanting to make Greeks better, but here is an example where they go past the line and attempt to control all aspects of life. If you BELIEVE that the Greek office can dictate what day you initiate your pledges, then you may believe that they can impose deferred rush. If these administrators do like other schools sometimes do, they'll say that "the faculty" wants to eliminate Greeks altogether or they want a one-year's deferral. Greek life people will present their plan as a "compromise". All you have to do is simply say NO. Almost any restriction of your right to associate is a violation of Federal civil rights law. Just as a magician depends on misdirection and suspension of belief to fool his audience, so do some Greek Life bureaucrats at some schools depend on the same tricks to fool undergrads. There doesn't need to be a discussion. If you don't want deferred rush, all you have to do is refuse to go along. Any punishment of you could make specific administrators liable. I'm not a lawyer; ask one - ask any of them and learn.

I myself am not sure that deferred would solve the problems. And not being from North Carolina, I can't say for sure what's going on with parental involvement --- however . . .

Over 80% of the student body at Chapel Hill is from North Carolina, and Chapel Hill is either for all intents and purposes in or reasonably close to some of the major population centers: Raleigh and Durham in particular, with Greensboro and Winston-Salem not all that far away. So it's possible that parents may be fairly close. Another factor may -- I emphasize may -- be that Chapel Hill is a high-prestige, highly selective school, and thus likely to have a good many parents who are concerned about / involved in / perhaps even "over-invested" in their children's success and well-being (from kindergarten on, in some cases). Dad and Mom may have been bursting with pride that their straight-A, loaded-with-activities, high-SATs kid even managed to get admitted . . . and may be ticked if the kid reports that he's stressed because of, to use your example, doing someone's laundry.

Which brings me to a side observation: sure, a few parents might be spying on their kids, but I'd guess in more cases the parents are hearing gripes from the kids. Some parents then apparently pass that along to the trustees, if the Tar Heel article is any indication.

Ya know, along the lines of Firehouse's advice to "just say no," I do think it's a shame that more pledges / new members don't feel empowered enough or comfortable enough, or safe enough, to say "no" when ordered or requested to do pointless personal-service activities.

Just speculating, of course.

It is interesting that, at least as I take the article, the complaints seem to be with fraternities, not with the Greek system as a whole.

They are talking about the same thing at my school as well. At least now I know a little bit more and we can call bull shit on them if they try it. Although I'm sure WVU's screwed up administration will try and find some way around it.

Force them to say straight out that they are doing it to hurt your numbers . . .

There really is no other rational reason to do it.

The funny thing is, the committee that is in place that is trying to make these changes are telling us that they want to strengthen the greeks on our campus.

How many *PUBLIC* institutions have deferred recruitment?

"We're only trying to strengthen the greek system" = "We're from the government and we're here to help you." One call. One lawyer. Trust me. If you are undergraduates talking to administrators, TRUST ME you playing a weak hand. Have one chapter call one lawyer, and have that one lawyer call the university general counsel. It will end immediately.

James is right. Deferred rush almost always hurts numbers.

are these poor little overworked
 

freshmen going to the football games, playing intramurals, hanging out at the student union, playing video/computer games,
going to the bars in that all too critical first semester? and is the board of trustees/administration going to curtail those activities too? and are the parents concerned about those activities taking up their kid's time?

How many *PUBLIC* institutions have deferred recruitment?

I can name two without doing any research whatsoever. Indiana University and Miami of Ohio.

I don't think either of those institutions have any difficulties finding women interesting in recruitment that does not begin until November/ January but both have very strong Greek traditions. Would deferred recruitment work at UNC or Michigan? I don't know but it should be the decision of the Panhellenic member organizations not administration.

Miami of Ohio used to be a private school and continues to maintain some of the trappings. I can't say why or when Indiana went to deferred rush, but you can be sure that it was imposed by decree. There is NO advantage to the chapters in waiting till second semester. On the other hand, if a Greek system was a terrible influence on freshmen and their grades, then the U. should take steps. But that's hardly ever the case. this is all about control, and padding some administrator's resume.

Thanks. I figured there must be some public schools that had deferred recruitment but I couldn't think of any at the time.

Doesn't Purdue have deferred recruitment as well? And do any of the other Indiana public schools have deferred recruitment?

If so, then perhaps this was mandated by the Indiana State Department of Higher Education. Or the State of Indiana trustees. Or whatever governing body over public schools of higher education might be called. (I think IU and PU are both under the same board.)

Firstly, I don't think that every single instance of moving to deferred has been "imposed by decree." If it has, please give me dates & examples...kthanks.

The advantage of waiting till second semester is if the school has a great many people who transfer out or flunk out. At a very academically intense school there are plenty of kids who find out they aren't the prodigies they thought they were. Why waste time pledging someone for a semester when they're going to end up leaving the school and never returning?

My main problem is that when first semester rush is used, even though it's a tradition not a rule, it seems that it takes away the PNM's choice. It's either pledge that first semester - even if you're unsure that you like the school or if greek life is really for you - or have your choices greatly reduced and in many cases, find yourself unable to get a bid at all. Once that is remedied, I'll get on board with first semester rush, but until that happens (and piggies fly) I'll keep cheering for deferred.

33girl
 

I agree with you in the case of a school where many pledges are likely to flunk out first term. Such schools do exist, unfortunately, but they are usually state schools required to admit any state high school graduate. Schools with high academic standards do not need deferred rush, especially when chapters can help with first term academics. Deferred rush is almost always "imposed". What usually happens is that the administration pushes IFC/Panhellenic to change their rush structure ("Either you do it or the faculty will impose harsher rules", or, "We want you to take responsible action to demonstrate to us that you're worthy of being here", or somesuch), and then the school can cast their eyes piously Heavenward and say, "Gosh, we didn't make these rules; the students themselves decided to do this."
33girl is right again - as she so often is - about a freshman missing her chance to join if she doesn't take a pin the first semester. I'd blame Panhellenic to an extent: my campus has almost 40,000 students and only 14 PanHel sororities. If there were an adequate number of sororities, more women would be able to find spots after the first term.
I just feel that deferred rush is inherently an imposed condition - where would a Greek system voluntarily (truely voluntarily) adopt such a restrictive system? Rush rules are things that keep us from being as good as we can be.

Yes, but look at what that means Sheila, it means that most groups in schools that don't have deferred Rush have no problems with numbers, in fact they are so fluffed out they can discriminate against upper classmen.

What's wrong with that? There's always AI if you're really joining the organization to be part of it, not just for the thrills.

But it IS about the thrills. It's about the lifelong friendships made at the most poingant and exciting time of your youth.

I don't think they don't have problems with numbers because rush is first semester, I think they don't have problems because Greek life is more popular. Rush is deferred at IU & they certainly don't have numbers issues for the most part.

I just have problems with the concept of making a lifetime commitment before you have even taken a college class. Maybe it works for some, but it certainly doesn't for others. And to me it kind of sucks that a lot of women who would be great in sororities and wonderful sisters don't get the chance because they don't want to put themselves out there before their college life even starts.

I think James and Firehouse are looking at this from a guys' point of view and I'm looking at it from the girls' point (duh). Guys' rush is much more laid back and I think fraternity life in general is - it's just different than a sorority. Clarion used to have first semester rush for guys and deferred for girls. I know it was not the greatest in terms of equal opportunity but sometimes I think they weren't altogether wrong.

and umm, I don't know what AI has to do with any of this.

i went to one of the mentioned schools that has deferred recruitment and in our case it defiitely didn't hurt numbers. we had an incredibly competitive recruitment with quota being somewhere in the 50's every year. yes, you did have certain perceptions and ideas going into recruitment since you were on campus for a semester already, but my opinion is if you are basing your recruitment and what chapter you want to be in on what you may have or have not heard then you are rushing for the wrong reasons. personally, i'm glad we had deferred recruitment. i went to a school far away from home only knowing one other person on campus who was a senior at the time, and if i would have been thrown into rush like that i would have crumbled. i can be a shy person and having that semester to grow a little and get used to surroundings and situations that i have never been in before definitely helped me during recruitment. now i'm not saying that deferred recruitment is the way to go, but for some schools and some people it is a better option.

I go to the same school as mu_agd, and I'm really glad that we have deferred recruitment. I liked knowing a bit about chapters before recruitment, and I think knowing people really helped me out. Also, I have so many friends that I probably never would have met if I rushed in the fall. Deferred has never hurt our numbers, and we have a very competetive recruitment. I think it just depends on the school. It's a generalization to say that deferred recruitment hurts numbers.

i think that's one of the best aspects of our recruitment. i have so many friends that were in different chapters. i lived with girls from other chapters. many of my friends lived with girls from other chapters. and a lot of this was because you made friends early on that just happened to pledge different houses. everyone, of course, had strong bonds with the girls from their pledge class and chapter, but it was a lot easier to have friends in other chapters than i've seen happen with friends of mine who went to other schools that rushed right as they got there.

Re: are these poor little overworked
 

I agree with FSUZeta.

Incoming freshman often select their college based on various potential campus experiences in addition to their academic pursuits. Greek life can/may be one of them.

If deferred rush is to help kids academically, help develop friendships or whatever else it is purposed to do, then why not deffer all extracurricular activities as well?

And to be clear, I'm not talking about incoming freshman on scholarship (such as the student-athlete or theatre major on scholarship) but the incoming freshman who wants to participate in plays, marching band, intramural sports, student government, religious organization, political clubs, dorm councils in addition to their academic pursuits.

These activities, clubs, groups make for a well rounded college experience.

Frankly, I don't understand how one extracurricular activity (Greek life) should be differed while others are not.

Re: Re: are these poor little overworked
 

Simple. Because being Greek is a lifetime commitment.

If you join the band or hall council and it sucks, you can quit. It's not a big deal. Greek membership should not be that way.

No NPHC member can join their first semester, and overall, the number of members that continue to show commitment to their groups as alumni is far greater than that of NIC or NPC. I don't think this is a coincidence.

So if you ask why it's not treated like other extracurriculars, it's because it's NOT like other extracurriculars.

That was a response to the comment about upperclassmen being discriminated against in schools without deferred rush...

I think the biggest problem is not the effects of D.R. but that it is an imposition on your freedom and choices as an organization. Now, if a GLO says, "I want to have deferred rush, so that's what I'm going to do" that's one thing. But, these schools aren't giving you all an option!!

By the way,

Are you sure this is true of all campuses??

Re: Re: Re: are these poor little overworked
 

I agree that Greek life is not like other extracurriculars. And yes, being Greek is a lifetime commitment. Perhaps a poor choice of words on my part.

There will always be members who end up going inactive or disaffiliating from their GLO. And perhaps someone who has taken more time to prepare or understand the commitment is less likely to do so. But that seems to point to the GLO (or NPC/IFC) taking responsibility to educate potential new members on what being Greek means and the commitment that entails. Something that NPHC members do very well.

Perhaps I'm being naive, but I have faith that a freshman can make that commitment. :)

Re: Re: Re: Re: are these poor little overworked
 

I do too....once they have a semester to get adjusted to college life. When you are away from home and your parents' constant supervision for the first time you have a lot of learning to do. You can't be in the 160 clubs and activities like you were in high school. It's easy to bite off more than you can chew and get into something without realizing its gravity. NPHC members know that before they even decide to pursue membership formally. The proper time to understand the responsibilities of Greek life is before you receive a bid, not after.

Jeni, AFAIK (and someone please correct me if I'm wrong) you cannot join an NPHC group ANYWHERE if you have not completed at least one semester of college. This applies to AKA, DST, ZPhiB, SGRho, APhiA, Omega Psi Phi, KApsi, Phi Beta Sigma and Iota Phi Theta. Anyone else, it doesn't. Does that answer your question?

I've been waiting a while to put in my $.02, so here it is:
I went to a school that did deferred recruitment (freshman can only rush second semester) and there are Pros and Cons just like doing it in the Fall. Based on my experience both as a Rushee and as a Sorority Member, here are my thoughts:
Pros: You have time to adjust to campus, make friends, and find your niche without the pressure of rushing and pledging. You also have time to decide if you truly want to join a sorority (so you don't just come to campus and rush and decide it's not for you and sit around waiting for everyone else to arrive on campus because you dropped out). You can see what the visibility is of certain GLOs on campus and see what they do with their philanthropy (some sororities have events 1st semester e.g. AnchorSplash--put on by Delta Gamma and Phi Ball--a kickball tourney put on by Alpha Phi). Less girls drop out during pledging because they already know their time commitments prior to rushing and most girls really know they want to be Greek.
Cons: Many girls already come into rush with impressions of the various sororities (the BIGGEST con). Some girls don't rush because they're already too involved in other campus activities. Some girls don't rush because they have to come back early from Winter Break (btw, I think this is the STUPIDEST excuse--but I've heard it--in my opinion they shouldn't be Greek if they worry about not having 4 weeks of vacation instead of 3).

I really liked having deferred recruitment when I was rushing because I got a chance to make friends before Rush, and not just rely on a sorority for my social scene (I'm the type of girl that has various groups of friends, not just one). I knew tons of girls that went to each sorority on campus, plus still had my GDI friends too.
But I will say that when I was in a sorority deferred recruitment had its down side. Some great girls I knew didn't rush because they were already active in other orgs and didn't think they needed a sorority too. Plus it sucks when girls come into rush with their mind made up based off of what they 'heard' about the various sororities--but I'm sure that happens too with Fall Rush (although maybe not to the same extent).
My school has thriving Greek Life for both sororities and fraternities. Our Panhel expanded from 5 to 6 sororities this year, and IFC has 12 fraternities. I don't know about IFC, but the number of girls rushing NPCs has increased from 220 (when I rushed in Spring '99) to well over 300 this year.
So, there you have it folks; my opinion on deferred recruitment. It's not the end of the world if UNC-CH decides to do it; but there may be consequences for doing so (when Wash. U. switched to deferred recruitment it really hurt one sorority in particular that ended up folding in 2000--however, the other 5 managed fine).

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: are these poor little overworked
 

If this is such a concern for a college, then why not deffer everything other than academics?

With all due respect, I don't think anyone can fully understand the responsibilities of Greek life before they receive their bid.

Both the university and the Greek community needs to take the responsibility to educate students about Greek life. Yes, this may be done effectively with differed rush; however, it can also be done effectively before a student ever sets foot in class.

Perhaps, every incoming freshmen should receive detailed information on not only Greek life, but all organizations that are available to them as a freshmen. And what the commitment entails. This can be followed up at freshman orientations. Either during the summer or at the start of the term.

And any freshman interested in Greek life (potential new members) may not join a GLO - or any organization - until they complete this orientation.

---

On a personal note, when I went through Freshman Orientation - during the summer and at a major Southern school - we had mandatory sessions facilitated with current students and specific to student life. No parents or school officials were allowed to attend. In these sessions, it was discussed what to expect and how college life is different than high school. Included was what it meant (time commitment, costs, affect on studying, etc.) to be a member of GLOs, other groups, clubs and organizations. The discussions included dorm life, living off campus, being in the marching band, what have you.

Freshmen would ask specific questions and to their credit, the current students were very frank with their responses about what to expect with college life. For example, if the question was about the marching band, you were informed of the time requirements. Say practice from 4 to 6 p.m. every day. Thus it was advised that if you wanted to be in band, that you not schedule any classes during that time. And if there were other organizations that met during that time, you would have to make a choice.

Frankly, after these sessions, anyone who did not have an understanding of the difference between high school and college - and the whole experience - should not be there in the first place.

If someone is unsure, then they simply wait (deffer) their choice to participate in college life - what ever that may be - until they are ready to do so.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: are these poor little overworked
 

because being in the hall council isn't a lifetime commitment!!!!!!!

Any org should tell the members what to expect, especially for things like band, but it's STILL NOT THE SAME AS GREEK LIFE.

and you apparently missed the post where I said at many universities that have first semester rush, you DON'T have a choice if you want to look at all the sororities (and have them look at you). It's do it right away or have your choices severely curtailed. That's the problem.

33girl-

I did read your previous posts and feel that they are "right on"! So I would like to apologize if it did not seem that I had. :(

In any case, you posted: "I said at many universities that have first semester rush, you DON'T have a choice if you want to look at all the sororities (and have them look at you). It's do it right away or have your choices severely curtailed. That's the problem."

From a male (IFC) point of view, this sounds more like a Panhellenic issue and not a Greek life issue per say.

By the way, you wrote that Clarion used to have first semester rush for fraternities and deferred rush for sororities. Is that still the case? Do you feel it "worked"? Were there any issues with it?