Poor people can't have children
 

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/03/02/national/02CUST.html

Evidently if you don't have money, you're not entitled to a child.

-Rudey
--Someone please start scaling back the government already.

Wow, those people are evil.

<rant>

Mark my words, "for the children" is the fastest route to tyrany.

"But we're doing this for the children..."

We're supposed to be a nation of laws.

</rant>

"To me, if Casey truly loved her daughter, she would leave her with us," Mrs. Baker said.

As a mother of two daughters, I can state unequivocally that this woman is full of, well, poop. What a sanctimonious witch!

Why would a poor people want to have a child in America today if they can't afford to give that child an economically secure 22 years?

Oprah Winfrey started out in a "poor" family as a child, look where she is today.

JKRowling was on welfare when she started writing Harry Potter. I will trade bank accounts with her anyday.

Sure it does not happen that a child grows to be a billionaire very often...but it has happened.

The kid's 5 now and is probably old enough to be well aware of cultural clashes. Would she even LIKE China? Another question: What if the family that took the child was a Chinese American (whether Christian or not. I'm not sure if religion has anything to do with it) family? Would there be such a battle?

That's not the point. It doesn't matter if she would like China or not. She belongs with her parents, not some rich people trying to manipulate the system so they can basically buy her.

OK, but what if her parents can't provide enough for her? Just because her parents claim that they have the right jobs, etc doesn't mean that they do. Besides, I think the foster parents will give her better polish than her parents who seem to be anti-religion.

There is no law saying that people have to have a certain economic status in order to love their children. Even if they can't give her every material thing or "polish" they can give her love and attention. They are her parents and it's their right to do so.

I take great offense to this assuming that those with religion are better equipped to raise children. This is just has bad to say that poor parents can't raise their children to be respectable, responsible adults.
I was raised in a non-religious household. While I wasn't completely without it, it was never a focus of my rearing.
We have no idea that the birth parents are anti-religious. Maybe they would prefer her child not be raised as a christian. They might very well practice a religion of their own.

If it's about money then the uber rich 0.5% of the country should have the right to have kids and any middle-class to upper-middle class families who pretend they come from money will be sadly surprised.

-Rudey
--Also given the fact of China's growth, lower costs, etc. I doubt that living in China would be so awful

I highly doubt that they practice any form of religion. The communist government in China doesn't exactly belive in religion, and many churches there are underground. A guy I know currently dates a girl whose parents are from the mainland, and he as told me that the girl's parents hate the fact that he's Christian more than the fact that he is white. The parents saying that they don't want "white Christians" raising their child somewhat implies that they believe that even non-white Christians are "bad" (especially Asian ones as they're "sell outs".)

I think Lady Pi Phi's point would be "so what?" While I don't totally agree, a lot of people would argue that religion is not a relevant argument in who will raise a child better.

Assuming that parents who aren't "religious" will be worse (or better) parents is a matter of contention.

I think the girl's parents also sound a little racist when they made that comment. I think I'd be grateful that a nice family would be able to give my kid a good life, something that I may not be able to do myself. Even though I came from a comfortable family, I often wished that I was sent to live with someone who would be able to give me "good polish", something that my parents didn't really give me for some odd reason.

Are you normal? I don't mean to sound offensive (I know I will) but that has to be one of the most idiotic statements ever. I feel sad that you truly don't understand what a family is about and that you think income has to do with it. Not everyone is so cold-hearted as you to wish they'd lived with a really high-income family that provides them with "good polish."

This is a middle class family. Cut me a break - the only polish involved is the polish they use to shine their SUV which they think is so amazing. They probably eat at a chain steak joint and think that's amazing. They'll send the child to school and will probably be able to afford private school, but more than likely, won't be able to use their name on a building to leverage the child's admission into an elite school.

Oh and hey, I do make a good deal of change, and I'm not even supporting this.

-Rudey
--I swear I can't be the only one here who thinks this is just absurd.

Oh wow!

I couldn't imagine ever being taken away from my family or even sent away temporarily because my parents wanted to giveme something better.
My mother spent part of her childhood (with the rest of her syblings...and even then they were not all placed together) in an orphanage and fosters homes in England because her parents had some sever financial difficulties and could not afford to provide for their children for a period of time. This was a temporary situation until they got back on their feet. It is a very paiful memory for my mother and she rarely talks about it. I do know for a fact that my mother would have given her right eye to go back to her mother. She hated living in foster homes even though she had the things her parents couldn't give her. She wanted nothing more than to be with her family. children should be with their parents.

Material possessions, the best schools, etc, etc do not necessarily make you a better person.

One does not need higher income to have "good polish". I once spoke to a woman whose mom was a concert pianist and her father a pitcher for a local minor league team. Her parents were still able to give her the kind of polish a lady needed. They didn't have matching china or cutlery, yet mom taught her well. The little girl's parents, by the statements I'm reading, can't seem to do that. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe I need to speak with them or something like that, but that's how I feel. My grandmother raised me, and she certainly didn't "polish me up".

This is ridiculous. They entered into an agreement which was intended to be temporary, the couple did not speak the English language fluently, and no one advised them to get a lawyer. They love her, they've consistently tried to attain visitation and get custody back. If I were the judge, I wouldn't think twice.

The child belongs with her biological parents. Period.

Totally agreed. In fact the idea of using words like "good polish" is in itself a racist remark. "Good polish" is some western ideal you are trying to throw down on everyone.

Also the idea that religion is better - I always saw religion as being a crutch of the poor. Many wealthy people I knew were "religious".

-Rudey

I'm so sorry that you've come to see yourself as a piece of silverware.

-Rudey
--Needing to be polished

Agreed. Sounds pretty materialistic, and somewhat shallow to me.

Kids who grow up in the poorist families can be very happy -- and be very successful.

My grandmother was raised in Asia and COULD have had good polish as well. Instead, she chose to be what I call "Paris Hilton Lite" (in a 1930s-1940s kind of way...well, as close as you can get to that kind of life in a war situation). The definition of "good polish" in Asia and in the west may seem different, but in reality it really isn't so. My great-grandmother was definitely "polished" from what I understand. She picked her rice grain by grain instead of shovelling it into her mouth.

Yup. I grew up in an affluent family, and lived in an affluent neighborhood. My father was never around because he worked 12 hours a day, 6 days a week. The one thing that I wanted was for him to be around. There are plenty of "poor" children who grew up in a richer family than I did.

I really must resent the situation when anyone sets up Rudey as a voice of reason.

Taualumna, you seem to have definite class issues stemming from your family's background. Considering that it is definitely affecting your judgement, can you see what other people are saying? That polish is less important than a loving family?? That these poor Asian people have as much a right to love their child as the rich white couple??

It is great when families can provide materially, but that's not all that it takes by a long shot.

Why don't you stop blaming your parents for your lack of "polish" and start doing things to imporve yourself. It's never to late to become a refined lady.

What the hell are you getting at?

Wash she any worse a care-taker for you?

I'm sorry but did she abuse you? Starve you? Rent you out for sexual acts?

For this lack of "good polish" you wish you were raised by someone outside of your family?

And yes "polish" according to Chinese standards would be very differeny by Western standards. The west didn't have emperors with spit cups by their chairs for one.

Honestly stuff like this upsets me because I see you as someone with little to no pride. You walk with your head down. That is shameful. You probably deny who you are, deny the culture, the language, the stories, and more.

And back on point, because I really have no desire to deal with your lack of pride, who says this poorer family wouldn't be able to raise their child right? If it's not about money as you said earlier, then why wouldn't they be able to provide "good polish"? Nothing you're saying is making any sense.

-Rudey

Good polish is important later in life, when a child grows up and enters the real world. A child could have had all the love he/she could get, but that love doesn't prepare them for the real world, where "knowing what to do" and "how to do it" is very important. Why else do they have etiquette consultants present seminars in the workplace and to graduating seniors in universities (well, they did at my school, anyway)? They didn't have to do that in the past, because kids WERE polished.

Agree. Money is not a determinate of how loving and successful a family is. I grew up in an "affluent" neighborhood and I watched friends and classmates deal with divorce, domestic abuse, child abuse, and sexual abuse. I even watched a kid in my class deal with the aftermath after his mother was thrown in jail for trying to murder his father after she caught him cheating. This was a very wealthy family!!! These family issues are not isolated in poor families. Wealth will not necessarily mean this child will get a better upbringing. What matters the most is that the biological parents love this child and want to give the child the best upbringing possible although they don't have as much money. Doesn't that stand for something?

Sorry, I was a sociology minor and I took most my classes in family studies. I just hate when people think that being wealthy means the family is classier and more "together". Not necessarily true at all.

You can't seem to answer this. You said money doesn't relate to providing polish and you said Chinese people can have polish. So what the hell does polish have to do with a poor chinese family who seems capable of providing it?

Your polish talk is such nonsense it's ridiculous. If you don't have polish who are you to even understand what it gets you??

-Rudey

For someone who claims to value the religous environment that the parents bring, you seem to view parenting as some kind of vocational school. That is very, very odd. There is nothing more important than love. You can compensate for a lack of polish later in life. Good luck compensating for unloving parents. I also challange you to find any religion that places polish, as a prioruty, over love.

I don't think picking your grain rice by rice will get you anything but being laughed at in the business world. I am not sure what on earth your conception of a lady is, but I think you just need to find a nice man and get some buns in your oven, because you aren't prepared for business at all. You can't be your idea of a lady in business and be successful. Yes, you can still be feminine and polite, but I'll be damned if I'll get anywhere in my field by courtesying and eating my rice grain by grain.

Actually, I don't intend to work very long. I intend to marry as soon as I find a decent man (or have my parents find one for me). As for my great grandmother, I only used her as I wanted to show that "good polish" had nothing to do with western ideals. Her "lady-like" behaviour is a product of how girls were supposed to behave in the early 20th century.

And there's a lot of other things girls were supposed to do then, like not vote and be submissive and not enjoy sex. Do you want to go back to that?

What if I said yes (not that I necessarily will)?

I was thinking the same thing. It's 2004. Women are liberated...we've burned our bras!!!

We have a lot more choices and because you've chosen a life that was forced on women in the early 20th century. But guess what you HAVE THAT CHOICE because of many women who wanted something more fought for us to have those choices.
Do you think suffregettes were any less refined because they wanted the freedom to vote and hold jobs, etc, etc.

Our founders and early members of our organizations were these free thinking women and when we talk about them we hold them in the highest respect and I'm very sure they were very refined and polished.

We'll throw rocks at you.

But, seriously...why would you want to go back? How would this benefit YOU?

This thread is getting more and more disturbing.

LOL! I think you just defined her version of what "Polished" is :D Back to eating your rice, GP!! ;)

Ummm, just because I CHOOSE to have that lifestyle doesn't mean that I'm forcing other women to do the same. I'm stating what I believe, and I should have the right to do that.

Dude, I'm eating my pizza rolls, with no utensils because I'm too lazy to do my dishes. Luckily I'm studying in two fields that don't require polish. :p

I don't think that there is anything wrong with some women wanting to not have any purpose in life other to have children, it's just a choice I could never make. I do, however, think there is something wrong with inferring that women who choose to be working mothers, or not be mothers at all, are bad people, and that those people who are middle-class or sexually promiscuos, are not polished.

Class is something you are born with. Some have it, some don't. And some are making it painfully obvious via this thread which side of that line they fall on...

Either that, or a time machine from the 19th century actually worked.