When Harry Met Sally Debate
 

What do y'all think can girls and guys be friends without the sex issue getting in the way?

For the longest time I thought that I could be friends with guys no problem and came to think of some of my closest guy friends as brothers. Now I dont know if its the guys that I befriend that are like this but I've had this happen 3 times now that a guy I was friends with (that I had no romantic interest in) has mentioned he would like to take our relationship further. I dont think that I give them any reason to think that I'm interested and it always ends up being a difficult situation where our friendship is jeopardized because I dont feel the same way.

Most recently a guy that I met 6 months ago when I moved out west called me up to ask me out on a "belated valentines day" date and when I told him I had family stuff to do that weekend(which was not a lie) he gets all mad that I would blow him off to spend time with my family (the nerve!). He then goes off on this tyrannt asking why I dont like him, what can he do to make me like him and to make me date him, starts talking about how his family is loaded and he could give me anything...really laying on the guilt trip. When I finally was able to get off the phone with him he asks me to call him back and promise that I wont break his heart. Although this was a pretty extreme case, I still feel bad when I have to say no and risk the chance of losing a friend.

Any advice? Thoughts?

It can start as friends but most of the time it will go beyond that plain and simple. One party gets attached.

Re: When Harry Met Sally Debate
 

No.

I had never experienced this, then it happened to me three times in one month last semester.

I'm beginning to think that a few guy "acquaintances" wouldn't push our relationship further, but all my guy "friends" would given the chance. And that's really upsetting to me, b/c it makes you wonder why you even bother putting forth the time. But from now on, if I know this, then it's my own fault.

Still, I don't think it's fair to let the guys off with the excuse 'Well they're men...that's just how they are..." Personally I think that's the slacker's way out, but then again who can blame them if they can get away with it..

(Sorry for the rambling post: I'm watching M.B.F.O.F.)

I think that men and women can be friends without romance. If you have chemisty and attraction, why would you want to be 'just friends'?

I think they can, but it's relatively rare.

People can be cowards. Or have poor romance skills. The guy might be "that guy" and always tries to be a friend hoping that leads to romance, likewise the girl can be like that too . . . bless their pathetic little hearts.

Also, you can meet when one or the other are already involved with someone else and then your relationship crystalizes as friends.

Or you can suddenly start hanging out all the frelling time (anyone get the reference?) and develop feelings that are inhibted by being friends status . .. good movie plot there.

Plus, never underestimate the human ability to fuck-up their chances at happiness :)

A lot depends on that time spent quotient. The All Knowing They say that sublimated sexual attraction might be at the base of all male female relationships . . . a lot of contact is more likely to make that attraction bloom. Take it as a compliment.

I definitely think they can. One of my best friends is a guy I've known since middle school. There is NO sexual chemistry whatsoever.
If you start off a friendship have feelings for the person that you're supposed to be "just friends" with, I think that's when it becomes a problem. Staying "just friends" with someone that you have feelings for and watching them date others can be a really disheartening experience. I've been on both ends of the spectrum and neither side is fun. I really think that if you want a lasting friendship with someone of the opposite sex that it is important that both people NOT see each other as a potential boyfriend/girlfriend.


ETA:
And while some friendships tend to bloom into a relationship after a while, I can't help but think there had to be some sort of attraction from the beginning.

You may not be attracted to him, but he might be attracted to you, and afraid to say so out of fear of damaging the relationship.

Sometimes I wonder if a lot of people are self-aware enough to know there is an attraction to begin with you know?

But also, the acid test is to spend a LOT of time together while you are both single.

True Dat.

Don't get me wrong. It's flattering, and sweet. And it means more knowing that they didn't feel that way when they first met me, but it was my personality that made it happen. Fine. Great. But it is kind of upsetting when you start friendships going"We're so platonic! This is awesome!" and then you just feel like you've been lied to....and I know it isn't always deliberate but it is kind of a let down sometimes.

And you don't want to start every friendship going "just so you know, I have no attraction to you...." b/c then it makes it sound like you just assume everyone's attracted to you...God could a person sound more conceited?

OY such is life.

But I wuv you :*(

-Rudey

Rudith, rules don't apply to you.
;) :D

I definitely think it can happen, but it's rare. Usually, from the beginning, one party is/becomes attracted. It is a cruel fact of life.

Jules I feel exactly the same way and I couldnt have said it better myself. It is flattering to think that it is your personality that ends up making a difference but when you go into it knowing you're not interested and then you start thinking hey he might want more out of this its a tough place to be...

I'm beginning to realize that maybe I missed the subliminal messages and even the times I did notice something I chose to avoid them rather than deal with them. Maybe if I had voiced my thoughts at the time then he would have known where I stood and not attempted to persue taking the relationship further.

Its also hard for me not to befriend guys because being in the computer science field I am definitely a minority. So unless I want to spend the rest of my days not speaking to most of my coworkers/classmates I have to befriend the guys. Drama drama drama....

Not saying I necessarily subscribe to this theory (and I don't know if it's been posted on here before), but www.laddertheory.com is definitely worth checking out. Mainly because there are some truths in there that I'd rather not admit to myself or anyone else, but I will say this- if a guy is awesome enough to be my friend, and I find him physically attractive, chances are I'll have a crush on him at some point. Although I do find guys exponentially more attractive based on how nice and/or funny they are, which this website says is all a lie. So I dunno, take it with a grain of salt I guess.

Men and women can be friends. Ruling out being with 50% (or whatever) of the world just because they do or do not possess a Y chromosome does not make good sense.
Not all men want to hump the leg of any borderline attractive member of the appropriate sex all the time.

This is an ongoing debate between Mr. KillarneyRose and me.

I had lots of guy friends in college and I always have and always will maintain that we were just friends and they weren't after any more than that.

Mr. KillarneyRose says that under their "just friends" exterior, they all wanted to, um, hava a physical relationship with me.

I told Mr. KillarneyRose that, just becase he was a big ol' horndog in college doesn't mean that everyone was!

No he was probably right.

Ask the guys - specially if one is married since they'd be willing to admit it now.

-Rudey

Your husband was right. Why do think they were hanging out with you? They weren't looking for advice on handbags.

That's what Harry says too.

I think the sex thing is always there. Even if you don't find someone terribly attractive at first, they often become attractive to you once you get to know their personality. And you like all of your friends personalities, right?

Not necessarily in a 'we're buds it'd be like incest' way.

There are some men who are looking for advice on handbags, and they are the only types who can just be friends.

That's true, there are some guys I grew up with that I don't find attractive at all. But the guys I've met in college and recently, I find attractive. But most of them are friends with my ex so they're off limits.

Misandrist?
 

I wonder if a lot of things said here (not your post above Lil' Hannah' I hasten to add) are just said misandry?

Re: Misandrist?
 

If that were so, you guys bring it upon yourself.

How often do we hear (said by GUYS) "He's just being a man. That's what we do. That's how they are. blahblahblah.........

I have absolutely no hatred towards men, can't get enough of them, actually.....but when the same shit keeps happening and your own gender agrees with us that there's some kind of conspiracy theory thing going on....what other conclusions can we come to?

Re: Re: Misandrist?
 

You are faking it Jules, nobody wants to smash with you....


You and Alex should hook it up though. ;)

I had plenty of guy friends in college, and none of them wanted me. I wish that some of them, or at least one of them, had wanted to date me in college.

I was simply suggesting a point for the sake of conversation. The double standards issue.
For example, let's take something - a statement - really crass and immature: "women can't read maps. orwomen can't really drive/park."
If a guy came out with that it'd be argued he was misogynistic (among other things heh) and then it'd be pointed out that, women can do those things.
Yet the argument persists that men cannot be friends with women because they are too stupid to act above an argued omnipresent base instinct because "that's the way they are".

So was I.

And I don't think people say men are too stupid to overcome what you guys say is your nature, I think guys use it as an excuse.

Re: Re: Re: Misandrist?
 

You're right, B....if you couldn't tell by all my loose cannon posts, I think guys want me but when I leave craze-o messages on their cell phones, they deny it. ;)

And Alex is a chick. What you meant to say is that I should hook up you and Alex.

"He's just being a man"
 

Women do say it. Above. Or all but say it.
Or in the film Kalifornia (w/ David Duchovny, Juliette Lewis) when they guys are shooting target practice) Juliette Lewis' character says it "boys will be boys".

So do guys after hearing it so much say it (i.e. repeat it) as an exasperated "yes ok whatever sure"?
Or, is the fact that men CANNOT be friends with women BECAUSE they are INCAPABLE and is it therefore an accurate statement - but many men and women do not subscribe to the theory and so do have platonic rel'ships with the opposite sex?
After it being argued and expected that men do this it does it then happen in a self fulfilling prophecy way?

I think that's what I'm getting at.

NOT ALL, but a lot of men want to be "men"...esp. when it comes to their expected roles in relationships. So half the time its falling back on the excuse that its a curse of the gender...and the other times I'm sure its blamed on the fact that its all we (both men and women) say. Which is why I really don't think you can pinpoint it to women hating men.

For men to be men though, does being a man include not engaging with a woman in any other way than romantic/sexual??

For the people who believe Harry; is effectively what is being said (in the thread generally) that women will not really talk to a guy (or vice versa) unless they want and intend to have something non-platonic with them and if they do not then they will not ever speak to or engage with that person in anything more than a cursory manner (or professional manner if in workplace i.e. if they have to) and will not be or ever seek to be friends with them because that is an impossibility and the only engagement which might have otherwise been possible will not ensue because of the lack of attraction by the party.

As for the "if both parties are in relationships that's different" supposed exception the logical conclusion of that is when one party becomes single the other can only callously say "you're no friend of mine" since it's then, impossible?

Re: Re: Re: Re: Misandrist?
 

No, I said it right. You should hook up with Alex.

I know she's a vagina but then it will put an end to all your current issues with those friends that are not vaginas but still want you.

I have had numerous males as friends, very good friends. I think it's easier as you get older and less hormonal.

Dee

Think of the word friend as a verb. As long as there was nothing physical going on you were friends . . .

As far as what people might be thinking . . who knows. It only gets blurred when people feel that they can't control their actions.

**bump**

found this on msn today and thought it was appropriate to post.

http://msn.match.com/msn/article.asp...44659&GT1=3142

comments? thoughts?