Quixtar/Amway/cult businesses
 

Has anyone had friends involved with Quixtar or Amway? What do you do when it seems like it's taking over their life and just sucking them in? I'm really really concerned for a friend of mine, I don't want to go into specifics, but I'm really scared that she's being taken advantage of.

I've never had any experience with any of these businesses and people involved in them until she became involved. Almost every single thing that i've read abou them has been extremelly negative.

What do they do, exactly?

i'm not exactly sure... set up sort of like a pyramid scheme except you're selling stuff... you recruit people to be below you and sell stuff, and you get a small profit from what they sell. They sell all kinds of crap... a lot of stuff you can get in stores, and once you add on shipping, it's about the same amount of money. It took me forever to figure out what exactly it was about, and i can't even begin to explain it. Maybe someone else will be able to explain it better.

If you sign up, you'll have a "sponsor." Part of your profits go to them, as part of their profit goes up the pyramid. If you sponsored five people, and each of them sponsored only one other, that'd still be money coming in from at least 10 people. The people at the top are worth a few million, and there aren't many of them.

The idea is to sell a lifestyle. "Buy our crap instead, and only our crap, and get other people to buy our crap and you could be in your G-wagon in 2 years!" It offers financial security, happiness, affluence, and less work the higher up you go, via cult-like obedience and an unparalleled zeal for networking. This is all my opinion, of course. Some people really enjoy the work and products. that's there cup o' tea.

I prefer making money the old fashioned way. Selling crystal meth out of my trunk to pre-schoolers for their milk money.

In addition, you have to buy the merchandise and then sell it. A friend's parents got involved and lost a lot of money trying to make money. I had to write off a friend because she got so involved in it, every single letter was trying to get me into it by promising I'd have "diamonds and cars". She was excited this one time because she was having a networking dinner with a woman who was upline two levels. We no longer talk (there were other issues too), and I didn't buy anything.

Another pyramid company is Excel (similar to Amway) and Primerica (recruiting broker pyramid).

yeah well Lsisten up!!! You tell your friend to stop being the bitch in the relationship!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I went to one of their "business meeting." last night. I felt like I was in a cult meeting. It wasn't a business meeting, more like a motivational meeting. I think that is how the bigwigs make their money, inviting these motivational speaker and have the lower people come to these meetings. I was waiting for either a space alien to come down or soembody giving out kool aid. It was surreal.

My uncle is in "Prime America".....he keeps trying to take me to meetings. I keep avoiding him.

My obstetrician tried to get us involved!:confused: I mean, doesn't the old boy make enough as it is? I almost had to switch doctors because he kept after us, wanting us to come to meetings.

We have had to avoid other friends for the same reason. Once they got involved, that's all they could talk about. Forget the high school football game, the weather, any other topic of conversation, they were obsessed. A couple of years later, anybody we knew who was in it would be out of it--minus a lot of money and a lot of friends.

I know three people who were/are involved with Amway...

The first was my husband's (my then-boyfriend) apartment-mate for his first year in grad school (grad dorm = you don't get to pick who you live with). He wasn't heavily involved, just doing it for a little extra cash. But, he bought all his food from Amway. That was all he ate, their preprocessed cr@p, no fresh meats, fruit, veggies... and he had rank B.O. You could smell him coming a mile away. My husband crashed at my place a lot that year :p

The other two people are a couple who are doing it full time. They tried to recruit us, and sent us the recruiting tape, which was all about how good it was to run your own business because you can set your own hours, put as much (or as little) effort into it as you want and reap the benefits accordingly, etc. The tape makes no direct mention of Amway. I just laughed through the whole thing because I'd recently started up my own business... the tape had some good points, but selling someone else's cr@p is not how I plan to make my millions! ;) When we told them we weren't interested, they didn't push the matter and risk our friendship, just thanked us for being open-minded enough to consider it.

Apparently Amway is offering a new option where you pay an annual fee and can get the salespeople's discount without actually having to sell to others or recruit others. Oy.

Does Watkins work like that, too? I like their products, but I have no plans on becoming a salesperson!!

Curious you should post this kddani, I was thinking of starting a topic on this area for a while but held back... I've a few thoughts, will gather my thoughts and come back and post a more lengthy look at it.

When I was a little girl, a friend's mother always had those Amway products around the house. I think she sold them to people, including my mom. However, I don't remember if she got my mom to sign on and sell them.


http://mysmilies.rgforums.com/s/cwm/cwm/eek6.gif

Oh man, we have some friends who have gotten into Primerica, and I'm really afraid for them, too. The guy gave up his old career (which was his passion) to pursue this "opportunity". The more I read about it, the less I like it. It can be really hard to maintain a friendship with people who have been sucked into these things.

i don't know anyone who "works" for these companies...i've actually never heard of them.

are they really popular? they sound really weird

I had an "interview" with Primerica. Half way through the interview I coul tell they were shady right at the beginning of the interview. I was invited back to their "information" meeting. I didn't go.

I also had an interview with a "marketing company". The job was to go door to door and solicit donations for some "charity".

Another scary thing is that you don't always know it's part of Amway/Quixtar. They all have individual names like "Smith Enterprises", so it's very misleading.

I was twice involved in amway and both times it doesn't work out for me, so I stop.

Amway
 

My husband was contacted about Amway in around 1995 and got all excited about the possibilities. Most of what has been said in this thread has been close to true - you are committed to your own business by buying products from yourself instead of buying them from your competition (Kroger, Wal-Mart, etc) and you try to educate others to do the same. I don't know how many times it was explained that Amway is not a pyramid scheme, but honestly, I don't remember the answer.

Being successful requires an ungodly amount of time, committment, and $$$ - we traveled to I don't know how many "rallies" to hear the big dogs speak and tell us how to become big dogs. Each rally cost at least $500 after room, board, and gas to drive there. It turned out that my DH didn't enjoy approaching his friends, co-workers, and acquaintances about the program, so we quit after spending too much money. Alot of the values they represent were admirable (i.e. investing in yourself, family values, etc), but I think it only works for those who become obsessed.

Sorry for the long post, but this is something I've experienced first hand. And by the way, being the good wife who supports her husband, I stood by his side during this period of our relationship despite the fact that I wasn't motivated to be part of it.

Isn't Mary-Kay like this too? We had an advisor that worked for MK and she was CRAZY about getting us to sell it too, always trying to get us to buy stuff, etc. It was so annoying.

Also, I've heard that Enterprise Rent-a-car is a cult-like company. I don't really have any details but an older friend told me. I don't know if it's a pyramid scheme or that they're just really hyped up on "what's good for the company is good for us all!"

YES! One of my good friends sells Mary Kay. Every time I would complain about my job or needing money or something her answer was always "Well, you could sell Mary Kay!" No, not my thing. It was to the point where she was going heavily into debt buying product (they're told they must have a lot of inventory so they can fill any order for any product anyone might have immediately...God forbid someone has to wait a couple days for an eyeshadow!) and not making anywhere near enough to make a dent in it. She's not super active with it now, thankfully, but for a while it was really obnoxious.

Our advisor would come in and be like "I'm making more with Mary-Kay then I did as a lawyer!" Maybe, but I'm not quite buying it. She also married an obscenely rich older man who I'm sure helped with purchasing that eyeshadow.

Re: Amway
 

From what I understand, it is not a pyramid scheme because they actually have a product to sell. The illegal pyramid scheme is one in which you recruit other to join and they in turn must recruit people but there is never any actual product being sold, except the membership into the "club."

People can make lots of money selling Mary Kay because they are selling a product that women have to replace pretty regularly (makeup, etc). If you are good at sales and marketing yourself, and as long as you're not in an area that's totally saturated with other Mary Kay consultants.

I don't sell Mary Kay, I've known people who do, so that's just my personal opinion.

PsychTau

My husband interviewed with them when he was fresh out of college, having no idea who they were or what they were about. They made him give 5 references at the initial interview, and then SOLICITED his references to join the program. Needless to say, he said thanks but no thanks to the job offer.

My holiday bonus from my employers this year was a free "Financial Planning" seminar conducted by Primerica. Not only are they cheap bastards, but they're trying to get us involved in a pyramid scheme. Oy. I know of no employees who actually attended.

1) Your advisor shouldn't be trying to get you guys to sell or buy stuff! I mean its one thing if Suzy says "Hey, I wish I had some Timewise cleanser - I just ran out" and the advisor says "Oh, I have some - I'll drop it off to you" -- but quite another to be soliciting from her chapter girls. UGH! My women know that I sell PartyLite, and they will tell me when they are out of candles or need a gift, but other than that - they don't hear it from me.

2) I don't know about the Pyramid scheme thing -- for PartyLite, while yes, we are pyramid in nature (so is everything - look at the school where you have a Board of Education, a principal, the teachers, the assistants, etc.) we are not a scheme. For one, you pay nothing to get started with PL - for another, people that you sponsor do not PAY you - PL does that. Also, we require no inventory, so you don't place orders until you have shows. But I digress...

3) I don't know about Enterprise Rent-A-Car - I interviewed with them after grad school, and was totally pissed off that I was told to come to work everyday in a suit -- not a dress, or matching separates - a suit, and heels -- oh, and we all wash cars during the day. I said "WHAT?" and she said "oh yes - we all wash cars in our suits during the day - customers like to see us doing that" - I was like - HELL no! I don't wash my own car -- much less in a suit and heels! I'm not saying its beneath me, but I think its stupid. I always laugh when I'm driving by, and there are all these suits and heels out washing cars!

I am so glad to hear somebody say this - one of my fellow chapter alums is all into PartyLite and every time she comes back to the house she brings brochures and passes them around.

I had some friends who got involved in Quixtar and they have never been teh same. It really is all they talk about. They aer constantly talking about the programs and conventions that they go to (which they pay to go to!). After they tried to get me to join, we have drifted apart, mostly because they never accepted that I just didn't want to be involved.
I worry for them because they recently got married, and they both want to quit their jobs and "life off their residual income," which they don't have. They would be giving up health insurance that comes with their jobs to do this. I just don't understand.

A lot of people I know have been approached about Quixtar and most of them have had that same nagging feeling that I had. It sounds interesting, but somthing about it is just off. They sometimes heavily promote themselves as a christian company, which does work witht that market. I am all for family values and staying home to spend time with your family if you can, but what's the point if you go broke just trying to make it in their company?

I've heard some bad things about Enterprise. A friend of mine worked there for 2 years after graduating from college. Basically, it was a 75 hour a week job. He came to work at 6am and didn't leave until 9pm. He also worked on Saturdays. That's fine for some people but many are getting paid accordingly for all those extra hours but he was only getting paid $30,000 per year. In other words, he was getting paid about $7.50/hr. He could have just been working as a retail sales clerk for that money and not have the same stress from the job.
Enterprise told him that he would only be working from the office by his house. Six months later, they told him that he would have to work at the airport for 2 months (they do this to everyone, supposedly). He hours were much longer since I think the airport car rental places are open 24/7.
He washed cars in his suits. He also had to pick up customers at their homes.
The title they give you is manager-in-training but you're basically a slave. They tell you that you can move up to being manager of the office but it takes many years and a lot of work. Most people quit before moving up to a real management position.
When he was hired by Enterprise, they told him that he would be promoted within 6 months. After 6 months, they told him there were no management positions open. After a year, they still told him that there were no management positions open. In the meantime, they kept putting new college graduates in his office under the management-in-training position. They were all being told that they would have a managerial position within 6 months. After being there for two years, Enterprise told him that they weren't going to promote him because he wasn't working hard enough (when he was basically doing things for the office manager because the office manager was lazy). When I asked him why he stayed for so long when he basically knew they were screwing him, he said it was because they almost brainwashed him into believing that everything he was doing was great for the company and that he would one day be rewarded for it.
He is not the only one I've heard this from.
When Enterprise came to my school for a career fair last year, a lot of the students were avoiding the Enterprise booth like the plague. I overheard a girl saying, "They're bad. They don't tell you all the job requirements when they hire you and once you're hired, they sucker you into staying."
The unfortunate thing about Enterprise is that my friend didn't gain any real management experience. He basically drove customers around, handled their complaints, and washed cars. I don't think that looks so good on a resume.

:rolleyes: Another one of those people :rolleyes:

That bugs the crap out of me! Why are people like that?

Of course some people in our region (which is what our area is called) tell their teams to solicit new customers at CHURCH :eek: ! I told my leader straight up that that wasn't for me - I do not go to church to sell PartyLite! The church secretary knows that I sell it, and she has bought a thing or two - ON HER OWN - as in she calls me. I just think that is sick to mix work and church like that.

A lady and her husband that we go to church with are involved in a company like Amway. Well, hubby and I had just joined the church before Eli came. A few weeks afterwards, my parents came to church with us, and were talking with another couple that we are friends with. Well this lady butts into the conversation and asks where we are going to lunch -- so she and her hubby came with us (mind you I had NO idea at the time what she did). She kept asking me if she could come visit me and see the baby -- I just thought she was being polite and wanted to get to know us. Next day she shows up with a "gift" -- yeah, her gift was some baby-cleaning crap that was supposed to get stains out of clothes (it didn't). She was so rude and kept asking how much money we made since I'm a stay-at-home-mom. I was royally pissed off. I tried to get rid of her by saying "well, thanks for dropping by, but I need to go nurse Eli now" -- she said "GO AHEAD - I don't mind" -- :eek: YES - she invited herself to stay there while I nursed (okay, granted I have no modesty, and I really don't care who is around while I nurse, but still - that's my decision to make - not hers!) -- finally I got rid of her when she held Eli and he pooped all over her - I have never laughed so hard.

Long story short - church is God & me time -- not solicit your fellow church members time!

Snake Oil
 

A while back I was speaking to someone I hadn't spoken to for ages. Sweet girl, we chatted about what was happening with her etc. She explained she was involved in sales, a company beginning with M - I forget but it wasn't Amway but it was multi-level-marketing (although she didn't know that term). She brought up a book 'Rich Dad, Poor Dad' and recommended it. She went on to say she'd left college to run this new business. A great shame. I ordered the book from Amazon, it's good at motivation and light on substance. It repeats things often and contradicts wildly. It recommends multi-level-marketing, one of the reasons that people involved in these schemes often bring it up. Turns out the author back when it was written couldn't get a publisher and it was either vanity published or there was a very small publishing run. An Amway distributor found it being sold at a car boot sale and liked it's supposed promises of wealth and started to distribute it through the network. The multi-level-marketing comments in it were probably added in at a later edition because of this.
At the end of reading it I knew I wanted to invest in real estate (:-D I know!!) although I knew zero about it I was "convinced". In the next few days I saw an ad in the newspaper about a seminar by an American guy named Russ Whitney who would tell how he made himself wealthy with little to no money down in investing in real estate. I went along, he of course wasn't there; the presenter and presentation gave me lots to be uncomfortable about. It was purely an exercise to sell their expensive system. Nobody was allowed to ask questions as these would be covered at the end, though common in presentations this is not normally because asking questions will expose the fact the presenter does not know the answer or expose the holes in the scheme or presentation. Needless to say, at the end it was finished with wording that gave the impression 'that was it' and there was no invitation for questions. There were screenshots of the subjects covered - just blurred enough so you couldn't see them etc. I wouldn't pay for any course without seeing a prospectus. MUCH repeating of key words. People want to be successful, such schemes play onto this with suggestions that not everyone can do it - verbiage about quitters/losers etc. It was just an exercise to sell a questionable 'system' with lots of vagueness. I was aware enough to see snake oil when someone was selling it. Before I left, I spoke briefly to one of the younger guys at the back (with the company), he recommended 'Rich Dad, Poor Dad'.
After I got back home, I looked up that real estate guru and found all about what an out and out con it was, and similar facts about the Amway and associated businesses and the tricks they all have in common.
It amused me I could have considered it for five minutes, thankfully I still have the sense I was born with.

Onto Amway...
It's mildy surprising that a new member hasn't joined GC to say they're interested in Amway and it's great (yadda yadda I'm a oge/shill and work for them etc!).
Amway has a massive failure and drop out rate but then there's one [more] born every minute! ;)
The cult aspect and how it works are discussed at http://skepdic.com/amway.html
Another (good) site is the site of Dave Touretzky, a university professor at Carnegie Mellon University. http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Amway/index.html

There're different shell companies etc such as Quixtar the online one, selling soap on the net. Fun! And, (as aephi alum mentioned) the practice of not mentioning the Amway name(s) when talking about it. This is all a product of the negative PR which the name Amway carries. There are reasons for that!
Amway and the real estate guru above and all the rest are *not* about products or a course to buy real estate. The people who make the serious money are the people running the motivational businesses. Anmway is all about the "scheme". They encourage you to buy so-called motivational or instructional books/pay-for-seminars etc. It costs up to thousands of dollars a year to remain in good standing with the Amway tool scams. (The books, tapes and rallies are collectively known as "tools".) The more people recruited the more people buy these. Pyramid selling.

Captivating motivational speakers have a powerful effect; and in such schemes they play onto people's desires for success and wealth with limited efforts. Those involved will have been briefed against objections and flaws in the 'business' by their 'uplines' (those they buy from) and at seminars. This is especially cultlike. Consequently many are trapped in it refusing to listen until they are left with no money and no friends. An Amway goal is keeping you away from "negative" friends and family. The 'Rich Dad, Poor Dad' discusses negative talkers and how they doom themself to a life of debts but you can escape etc etc. An Amway favourite is to refer to them as 'dream stealers'. It stresses how you will be successful because you are involved in the scheme. The top seller Dexter Yager has a book "Don't Let Anyone Steal Your Dream". According to the Hart lawsuit against Amway and Yager (et al, 1997), Dexter Yager makes forty million dollars a year from the sale of "business support materials", (these seminars/materials) representing almost three quarters of his annual income. Something to remember the next time someone says "we don't make money unless you make money".

Amway is a pyramid scheme selling books tapes and other "system" tools to people who are not selling anything. The distributors use the products themselves - the toothpaste, toothbrush etc, then listen to Amvox voicemail to pick up their motivational messages, they go to seminars that last until 2am when they are esp. receptive aka inequipped to resist. It becomes a part of their life. The 1979 lawsuit stated it was a direct sales business as opposed to pyramid sales since products were involved. All that is really sold is the scheme.

Leaving an Amway business is difficult for some people as they have endured years of brainwashing telling them that only quitters and losers leave the business. Amway's leading distributor said " If your friends don't join, get new friends." It is often touted as a way to meet other people and develop new friendships. You'd find the "new friends" not so genuine once you left your Amway group. People contact every acquaintance they can think of, trying to recruit new distributors. They don't want to be losers. And if you lose you are negative or so the system tells you.

Danielle, I wish you luck with respect of your friend. There is no shortage of information on the 'net about Amway and their techniques... Hopefully she will not be committed to experiencing some of the problems that many out there have suffered.

Re: Snake Oil
 

Was it Melaluca (or something like that)? A friend of mine is involved with that. They sell these supposedly all natural products. They do everything from vitamins to personal hygiene to home cleaning supplies. They do the whole "party" demonstration where you are supposed to so freaked out that you will get cancer because of your dish washer soap or your toothpaste that you will buy all of their stuff and run home and throw your things out. :rolleyes: The kicker for me was when they require you to get on a "regular purchasing plan" as a member to get the so-called discounts. You were agreeing to order something like 35 points per month, when ended up being something like $50. IF you did not order your set amount a particular month they shipped you a gift certificant that you "could use anytime!!!" Yeah right....

I'll keep using my Tide and get cancer thank you very much

Yup sounds fairly similar in products at least. I recall the one she was involved in was called mannatech. Their website seems to go for the all out 'blind people with science jargon' approach to selling their vitamins and lifestyle products. The consensus seems to be they are savvy enough not to make cure claims publicly but down the line, reps to prospects are a different story. :D

Re: Snake Oil
 

Oh Lordy, one of the guys I work with was touting "Rich Dad, Poor Dad" like it was the greatest thing since sliced bread. I think that's part of why I am starting to hate my job - too many of my coworkers (mainly those with higher positions) are buying into this corporatespeak motivational bullshit and wondering why we all aren't. I'm not a negative person but this crap just raises my hackles.

And just to clarify a "car boot sale" means they were selling stuff out of the trunk of their car. :)

Lol 33girl! Oops I forgot to de-anglicise! :o
One of the sites on the net I came across while researching after my exposure to it gave a kickass stepbystep rundown on what drivel the book was and how it contradicts itself. If anyone feels esp. interested let me know and I'll try and find the site again.

Re: Re: Snake Oil
 

I thought the closest Yank equivalent to 'car boot sale' was 'gar[b]age sale' :)

Probably. It's kinda like a garage sale but not held at a person's house. A school or hospital might hold one say to raise funds, charging people for a pitch (place for their car) where they'd all be in a car park/playground whatever. In rows, each person brings their 'stuff' and sells it - typically they'll put the items for sale on a table in front of the trunk of their parked car.

Ah... OK. :) sounds more like a combination flea market/rummage sale... many US zoning laws have some restriction or other regarding these type of sales.

Re: Snake Oil
 

Damn, that was the same book the Amway people was tauting as their bible. I read it, it was a rpetty good read. But it was all common sense that most people would've picked up.