Cutting legacies early in rush (NPC)
 

The other legacy thread about step-relations got me thinking. I found this old thread but it didn't seem to contain my answer...

Most, if not all, NPC sororities require that legacies attending formal recruitment be invited back at least to the first invitational round.

But suppose a woman comes through who is sooo undesirable that she puts people right off. She's loud, rude, obnoxious, swears like a sailor, has rank B.O., no manners, sloppy clothes, bad reputation, criminal record, whatever. The exact opposite of a lady.

The other PNMs in her group can't stand her; maybe some have said aloud that if any sorority invites her back they will cut that sorority at the first opportunity rather than take the chance of ending up as her sister. But....... she's a legacy. Can you cut her? Should you cut her?

Alternatively, suppose a legacy comes through, she's a nice girl, but she doesn't meet your GPA requirement. You're not supposed to cut a legacy after round 1, but you are supposed to cut anyone who doesn't have the grades. Which rule prevails?

(Mods: This is kind of rush-related, so if you want to move it to the rush forum, that's fine... I started it in Greek Life because that's where the step-relationship legacy thread was :) )

Nope, good place to put it!!!!!:)

If Dorkos, then why should theY be a automatic in//?:confused:

WILL THEY Be an Automatic Asset to the Chapter or a liability?

That seems to be the first question asked!:)

They can cut her becuase of grades, they should. Her family member should know that and should not be surpised that she was cut with something below min. Unless there is a given reason that can be worked out like family member died that semester or she was in a horrible car accident that she basically failed everything. But you would make expections to other girls for that rule also even if they were not a legacy.


Chris

It usually requires special permission to cut a legacy and then sometime you must contact the person (mom, sister, grandma, etc) and provide an explanation. Yikes.......

If she didn't make grades; she gets cut. That is the rule that prevails. Schools and Nationals make grade rules for a reason--and that reason stands true for any potential member legacy or not.
And I don't know how you got the idea that you could not cut a legacy after Round 1. That's school dependent. When I was rushing, we visited every sorority for Round 1 (called Rainbows) then got 'invited' back to a maximum number of 5 for Invites (Round 2). I was cut by my legacy chapter after Round 2. In general at my school for any chapter, if a legacy makes it to the 3rd round of parties, she's supposed to be on the prefs list, and therefore, the top of the bid list. Some National offices I know push their chapters to always invite back legacies that qualify (that is, have the grades); and some leave that to the chapter.
I definitely know that I made grades for my legacy chapter, as the chapter I pledged had one of the highest requirements for pledging (and my legacy chapter had the lowest), so I got cut for other reasons.

Hope that answers your question!

I definitely believe she should be released. Legacies are definitely important as ties to our history, but what you describe defies Kappa's standards so greatly that I don't think any doubt exists in my mind about it.

I do, however, beleive that it is important to give her every chance possible to prove herself, and treat her with courtesy regardless. (Of course, I beleive every PNM deserves extremely courteous treatment.)

Do you mean that the college or university determines whether or not a legacy can be cut & when? Or were you saying that the individual GLO makes that decision? Just trying to understand the comment.

I'm afraid I have to disagree - it's the Executive Office of the GLO who decides at which point a legacy can or must be dropped. Unless our policy has changed drastically, all legacies (daughters, granddaughters, sisters) of an Alpha Delta Pi are automatically invited back to the Second Round. Depending on the situation, which would include grades & "compatability with the Chapter", she could be dropped at any round after that - except, if she is invited to Preference, she WILL be on the Bid List!

Many of the GCers from the past few years know that my chapter had a five-generation legacy when I was Rec Chair. Nobody liked her, she was perfectly obnoxious (but had a 4.0), she didn't want to go Greek, but there was no way in the world we could do anything about it. She pledged, but was initiated at Convention (instead of with her New Member class) and immediately went inactive. You cannot begin to imagine the amount of drama that was behind this little paragraph!!!!

What I was trying to say was that an individual chapter is usually the determining factor for when you could drop a PNM (meaning for example that AB chapter of XYZ may always keep a girl until 3rd round, whereas AC chapter of XYZ may decide to drop legacies they know they won't take after Round 1 or 2).
Obviously, as was pointed out, some GLOs make determining factors over when you are/are not allowed to drop legacies.

As far as grades, that's totally right - if the school says you must have so and so GPA, it supercedes ANYTHING any sorority says. If the sorority says you must have a so and so grade, you might be able to take the person for a "grade risk" but if that isn't allowed there's nothing the mom or whoever can really do.

I have said before that I think some of the legacies who come through acting like freakazoids are TRYING to get cut, rather than have the balls to tell their mom, granny & 6 sisters that they want nothing to do with sorority life. If you are that entrenched that you want your daughter to pledge you would at least school her in basic social graces.

And usually other rushees find out from "tent talk" or the other girls in their group where the rushees are legacies at.

legacies
 

I may be misunderstanding what you said. Not all schools have the same number of rounds, so it is hard to know exactly when a cut may take place using that example. Many GLOs have the same policy as AOII - a legacy must be invited to the first invitational round. They may be dropped after that. If they are invited to Pref, they appear first on the bid list. Within that policy, individual schools may do anything they wish, but that is the minimum. I think that most GLOs in the NPC (if not all) have a policy at the national level about legacies that their chapters must adhere to.

Re: legacies
 

You're not misunderstanding. That's exactly what I was trying to say. I was just debunking the comment that you could not drop a legacy after Round 1--because at some schools, the 'invite' round is later (meaning that legacies, if they were dropped, were dropped after Round 2).

Sometimes, chapters who have not met quota or have been on grades probation are told they cannot drop legacies.

But nothing is 100% cut & dry. If a legacy has a horrible reputation or horrible grades, & this is told privately to the chapter advisor (who discusses with her superior in the HQ line), the girl is dropped.

It really all depends on the chapter, & their relationship with HQ/advisor.

But from what I have understood, it seems that every NPC sorority will put legacies at the top of their bid list, if they are invited back to prefs.

As for inviting back legacies to 2nd round, this also depends on the chapter. Usually, legacies have recommendations, so it falls under the rule "all recs are invited back to 2nd round" as a courtesy. But not every chapter uses this "courtesy" rule.

This ties in with the in-house legacy thread that was here in the fall. Many sororities will drop an IHL early in rush, figuring that she'll pledge her sister's sorority. I think they ought to try to find out from the PNM if that's her intention because over the years, I've known several rushees who had no intention of pledging their sisters' sorority....though most do want to, it seems.

isnt that kinda sexist and elitist? or is it okay, because youre "allowed" to include/exclude on these grounds?

what if a potential rushee has some of these attributes as a legacy (or even if she wasnt)?

ex. lets say she smells really bad, klutzy, swears, and committed a crime. shes a great person otherwise, has the GPA, and a legacy. then what? i mean, a lot of girls swear, greek or not. and a lot of girls smell, greek or not. is said prospective not a lady, therefore not greek-worthy? of course its not cut and dry, but some of these attributes cant be helped, maybe they arent aware its a problem, or cant help it (the less fortunate tend to have sloppier clothes, and i can legitimately say this.)

another example: lets say shes fat. and by fat im talking obese (once again in can legitimately say this) technically this isnt considered 'ladylike,' but do u exclude her? or how about if she had a short buzz cut? how abot 9 tattoos, and piercings on her face? not things u exactly associate with being a lady, but do u exclude these ppl?

dont insult her femininity or self worth on the basis of her flaws or what you dont think is ladylike. (cause we all have them)


i could go on and on. just my 2cents.

If you're talking about my scenario, this woman just did not want to be a greek. She wanted to marry her boyfriend, become a nurse, and disappear into the backwoods. She came right out and told us that she had been forced to rush. At the time, no one had to go to any magic amount of parties, and she only came to our parties.

If there hadn't been so much drama surrounding her situation (ie: nightly calls from EO), I would have felt sorry for her. On the upside, her roomie DID want to be a greek, and we pledged her with joy!

I think it really has to do with the national because some I think have stricter rules than others. I don't know our exact rules because we have had very few legacies but I am pretty sure we have very specific rules about what they need to be invited back to and what we have to do if we don't want to invite a legacy back. And I think there is a situation where we don't have a choice and have to give a bid.

Most likely, that happens if you invite a Legacy PNM to Preference round. I think that in most groups, when you do that, the Legacy PNM is required to be at the top of your bid list or something along those lines.

Yeah, I have heard of that before but I was actually referring to something else. I believe we are required to give a bid to people that get recs from the National President. I so have to double check that though/

There's a difference between being a woman and being ladylike which you don't seem to grasp.

And anyway - taking care of yourself, as in taking regular showers or baths, and not cussing like crazy in front of people you barely know isn't just ladylike - it's peoplelike!! If you haven't mastered these basic social skills perhaps an institution of higher learning (let alone a Greek org) is not the place for you. If she's a "great person" I would think she would be cognizant enough to pick up on the fact that these things will hinder her in life.

Even if you're in debt up to your eyeballs, if you can manage to get to college you can keep yourself clean and neat and be polite.

When I was a sophomore at Ole Miss we had to release a PNM because she was not desireable in any way possible. She did not have her grades, she uncouth, obnoxious, rude, and very very unladylike in public. The chapter invited her back to second round and then after that she was released and not invited to Pref Round. Of course her sister who was an AOII was upset, but she understood since her sister was released by all 10 sororities.

At my chapter of AOII (Nu Beta chapter), we do not release a legacy unless she is undesirable, has horrible grades, and is uncouth, loud, rude, etc. Also, as Chapter Adviser I encourage members to really think before they decide to release a legacy. Also, as an adviser I can challenge any releases they chapter has during MS sessions.

In my view, being a legacy, I would think twice and I would just try to remember that you might be losing an alumna who is dedicated to the sorority financially and she might be a great, wonderful volunteer....so the consequences of losing her could be very harmful to the chapter.

We certainly do all have faults. What we also have in common on this board is that, for the most part, we are or want to be members of organizations who choose their members based on the attributes presented. I don't know if you are a member of a GLO (it appears from your posts that you are). Please don't tell me that your GLO has NO deliberative process for membership, because I think that you do. You take your members based on certain criteria particular to your organiztion. All of that includes "judging" the potential members in some way. If you are a member of a GLO then you have voted on new members. What criteria did you use, if not your first, second or third impression of them and/or the recommendations of your members?

tld221
 

please remember that while the sorority chapters are meeting and evaluating pnm's they (the pnm's)are doing the same thing-choosing which chapters they will revisit and dropping those that they don't like, for whatever reason. it is mutual selection.

Wow. I would have literally hit the floor if I opened a rec from our International President when I was in school!

Ours came from the International President, two other International Officers, and her grandmother, who had a high office - each listing the five generations back to the Adelphean Society.

Like I said, high drama!!

We had one girl this past recruitment 2003, now a new initiate of AOII, who had her rec written by our past international president, Carole Jones. It was pretty impressive. However, the actives would have chosen her regardless of her rec, she had and still has everything that we look for in a new member of AOII.

Wow, I AM starting to feel sorry for this girl. You would think she would have went someplace that didn't have ADPi and avoided the situation if she didn't want to be Greek.

Similar situation as honeychile's, we had a 4-generation legacy. At least one relative had been an International officer of some sort, all women were very involved and I think almost all female relatives (like 15-20 some) had gone our org except two that went a different org (and someone was not happy). We had quite a few recs for her.

I know the mother was calling her every night to see how things were going and always asked what she thought of our house. I ended up preffing her because everyone else in the house was scared or had a hard time talking to her. She was a charming, if off-beat, young lady and was a wonderful asset to our chapter. She later confided to me that I was the reason she chose our house because I told her to do what she wanted to do, she was the one who had to be a part of our chapter, not her mom or grandma or anyone else. Her younger sister is now a member of our chapter as well.

On the reverse, we had a legacy one year who was very rude, unkempt, and had poor manners. She boasted about how she knew she was a legacy to our house and another and how one of them had to take her. She would not have been a good fit with our chapter and was released early in the week.

One of the things our national always says to us is for every legacy who isn't extended a bid you have the potential to lose the support of 5 alumnae. And it makes sense, if an alumna is very active and a legacy through her doesn't get a bid I am sure she will complain to her alumnae friends and they will all be less likely to be involved in the future.

Looking back, I think she handled it the only way an 18-year old could, and still expect her daddy's allowance. She did what was expected of her, got initiated at Convention, and rode off into the sunset. I certainly wouldn't expect a 6th generation legacy from her, though - unless her grandmother & great-aunts get to her! :)

We also had a legacy go through our chapter whose mother was an alum of our chapter, was very visible on the local Panhellenic, in our org and in the community. She was a very classy, dynamic, beautiful woman. The poor girl went through, was pledged with much internal controversy, initiated and left school soon into the second semester. She really did try get involved to please her mother, and we tried to involve her as much as we could, but you could tell her heart just wasn't in it and I think for everyone involved, it was best she left when she did.

There is a young woman at Beloit who's grandmother is a former National President of ADPi. I believe she was a three generation legacy and part of the reason she came to Beloit was to avoid it all. She is a wonderful person, but just doesn't want to do the sorority thing. It sounds like she is really lucky to have had parents who were understanding enough to allow her to do what she wanted. I guess her first semester (i was abroad) she came to a few rush events to appease her mother, but just knew it wasn't for her.

Doesnt it boil down to:

That persone is not her Legacy Relatives but an individual of her own calling.:confused:

She is not They and vice versa. Why should something be forced upon them and in the same vein something forced upon the Chapter.:confused:

As the old story goes, the ugly duckling became a beautiful Swan or not!

The kids that come to College many times are forced by Parents:eek: So they are there with ill feelings from the get go. If they dont want to Pledge or Associate, then let that be the deciding factor!

I have a Brother, # 54 to be exact whose son pledged another Fraternity right across the street from our House. It hurt him like hell, but backed him 100 %!:) He hangs with us a lot for things that the Alum do. Not a problem with me I still Love Wade as He is Rams Boy!:cool:

My understanding is that people with recs from the national president (and possibly other national officers) are treated almost the same way as legacies. They must be invited back to the first invitational round, and if they are invited to pref they must be placed on the first bid list unless doing so would push a legacy to the second bid list. I think they can be cut before pref, but it's not really a good idea to annoy the national president like that ;)

not to mislead any1, but im not a GLO member. but i research and pick up information as i go along.

i understand every org has certain attributes they look for, but to say that one of them is being "ladylike" cuts a lot of potential members out who could be assets to the org.

and arent u supposed to accept people for who they are?

i realize my opinions may be taken a lot differently now that it is official i am an independent, and that the outsiders dont understand until theyre in it, but im going on logic, and questioning the orgs that are supposed to better people and promote all the wonderful things ur about.

You're getting way too hung up on the term "ladylike." Substitute "uncouth" if that works better because that's really what we're talking about.

Being what some would call "quirky" or "original" is wonderful, and many of the women who could be labeled as such join sororities. Being rude, slovenly, mean or completely socially inept is not wonderful. I doubt very much you would want to be friends with such a person. Why on earth do you think a sorority should bid them??? :confused:

A sorority is supposed to better you, but it isn't a reformatory or finishing school.

I kind of wish there wasn't a "rule" that legacies should be invited back for a certain number of rounds, especially if they're going to release you anyway. Here's my story...when I went through rush, my school had a chapter of the sorority that my two older sisters belong to. Only problem was, I didn't particularly like it, and knew I wasn't going to join it. Now, I know I should've just cut them, but I felt bad about doing that, because I was a legacy to that group and I didn't want my sisters to feel that I "rejected" their sorority. They kept inviting me back, so I left them in my schedule, only to be dropped right before Pref. I was relieved, but in a way I wish they'd cut me sooner so I could've kept another group I liked marginally better. It was so obvious I wouldn't fit in there...why'd they keep me around so long? I'm beyond happy with the house I joined, but it's just something I got to thinking about when I saw this thread...

I think that parents just need to realize that the girls in the chapters now aren't the same. Forcing your daughter to be with girls she doesn't get along that well with is depriving her of the true experience.

There is a girl in my chapter that was a legacy to another sorority on campus, but she wanted nothing to do with them. She went against her mother's wishes and joined us, and now her mother is happy that she joined the right group for her.

Good for her! I liked the Kappas when I rushed.....but DG was a PERFECT fit:) So here I am