Gang violence: Why care?
 

If they're killing each other off, why care?

-Rudey
--Let's see who has braincells!

Because some innocent person who has nothing to do with it may somehow get caught in the middle of it.

I think it puts too many innocent kids in unfair positions where success is next to impossible. The closest I've been to the ghetto was pulling off I-40, right after I got through downtown Memphis to get gas over at the MapCo at 4:30AM.

Within about 30 seconds, I'd had a rock of crack offered to me (at least I think that's what it was), been hit up for $5.00 by some guy that had "just gotten out of prison" and essentially had to flee the scene because about 12 people were coming up on my car pretty fast.

How could a child thrive in a community where that goes on? That kind of stuff sure as hell doesn't go on where I live.

Our inner-cities are bringing us down as a society. People from there are getting involved with gangs and drugs and then filling up our prisons, costing us tax dollars. Not to mention the fact that folks that learn this lifestyle really don't have any viable options as far as honest work goes. Drugs and crime and prostitution are all that they can really depend on to survive.

If I want to think about someone that is in an absolutely hopeless situation, I think about the lady that offered me that crack rock at 4:30AM. Toothless, had a speech impediment, totally unemployable. Does she bear some of the responsibility for being where she is today? Hell yes. But to some degree we are a product of our surroundings. Had she grown up where I did, there's basically ZERO chance she would have ended up the way she did.

I don't claim to be an expert on the situation because of my 'brush with death in the ghetto' but it did open my eyes to the fact that a place like that can exist in America. I'm one of the few people that claim to be 'conservative' that also believes that something must be done to repair these areas and reduce the gang lifestyle a choice and not a necessity for survival.

Re: Gang violence: Why care?
 

What makes you think their only killing off each other?

Re: Re: Gang violence: Why care?
 

Can you please just stop talking to me? Yeah thanks 59 year old college boy.

Nobody has posted a good enough answer. Someone who lives in communities with gangs won't have much influence, wealth, political privileges - ie the system won't move to change it because as innocent as they are, they're not important. Cold.

-Rudey
--Think.

Let's take a hypothetical situation...

Let's say innocent bystanders who accidentically get shot and/or killed by gang shootings didn' even factor into the equation. Let's *pretend* that doesn't happen anywhere in the US (it's a HYPOTHETICAL SITUATION PEOPLE!) And when gangs shoot to killsomeone from a different gang - they always hit their target.

Would you be against gangs then? The drugs, poverty, other crimes that are often associated with gang areas are still a problem.

I guess what I'm asking is whether you value all lives equally. Or is an innocent bystander "worth more" so that's why we care about gang violence. Not because we're ethically opposed to one person taking the life of another, or gun use, etc...

Well, yeah, there's a difference when someone shoots a person that is aiming back at them versus someone who has no intention of harming them. It's not about the value of a person, it's about the situation.

If someone chooses the gang lifestyle, that is their choice. If they decide that gun play is a good idea then I don't really feel sorry for them when they get what's coming.

What I don't like is the system that perpetuates poverty in urban areas. In my opinion, the only way to solve this would be to remove all children from these areas -- ship them off to a boarding school where they might have a chance at a better life. I think if given the option, many parents in these areas would think this was for the better.

I try and see the big picture.

-Rudey

Definitely!

I mean, when was the last time a rich person made an unethical decision? That hasn't happened in minutes.

Society's flaws are reflected in every social strata (HI ENRON!).

"People from there" sounds suspiciously like "Black people from there."

Just saying.

Your post lacks perspective, KT.

ETA: a little explanation . . .

It's arrogant to proclaim crap like "Bringing us down as a society."

What's our society? American culture? Your home town? Rome fell. What the hell do you want?

Also . . . it's bizarre for the middle class to blame the lower classes for "bringing them down." These same middle class folk will exalt union values while discouraging that particular lifestyle among their kids, and disparaging the "inner city" . . . nonsense.

KT . . . the question was posed, and you didn't even address it. Think about that.

I gotta agree with KSig RC .

Rudey-If they're killing each other off, why care?
I don't think too many people DO care. That's why it's "allowed" to continue.

It's when the guns come to the suburbs, when it's in your own back yard, that people start screaming about it. Then, they blame bussing...

For years I heard about kids getting killed for their shoes or their jackets. Mom's putting bullet proof vests on their children. Did it hit home? No, because it was happening in NY. NOW, we have metal detectors in OUR schools, bomb threats and a 5th grader
packing a gun in his bookbag. White flight and still it comes.

Why should we care? We SHOULD care because it isn't going to go away. It's NOT acceptable no matter WHAT side of the tracks you live on. In a way it reminds me of that seen in A Christmas Carol by Dickens where the phantom opens his robe and reveals
the children that represent the social ills of the world. Not exactly sure... were they poverty and despair?

That's the truth - most of us don't care until we have metal detectors everywhere and our bags are being searched. It's just something on the news in some far away place until it's our friends, our relatives, ourselves who are in danger.

We should care because there's only so much space to run away from our troubles until we have nowhere else to run.

With ever-increasing social disparity, nothing can be done to alleviate poverty in any society. The difference between a 5% difference of a rich-poor gap is a greater number of ghettos.

note to ktsnake: i'm gonna start calling you Contradiction Kevin

..you brushed upon the 'costs of society' for incarceration et al. I'm not sure if you're aware or not, but there are numberical sociological studies linking economic benefits to the prison system in the U.S. In fact, i read upon one that attributed a 5% reduction in unemployment overall because of the jobs created from Crime - and i ain't talking about white collar.

One last point (and sorry for the redundancy), you suggested to ship off 'ghetto children' to boarding schools where i geuss they can learn how to function in society? Ummm if you knew anything about rehabilitation on any level, it is a far greater cost to society than anyother method.

And who's going to pay the expensive boarding school tuition for these kids? Not the government, that's for certain.

***Sigh*** I grew up in an inner-city neighborhood. I lived in the same neighborhood from the time that I was born until I left home to attend undergrad. In all of that time, I was never offered crack. You were in the "hood" for 30 seconds and were offered drugs. Hmmm. That's interesting. LOL


Oh, to answer the question... Well, I guess the families of the innocent children who are killed every year might care.

posted by abaici:
"You were in the "hood" for 30 seconds and were offered drugs. Hmmm. That's interesting. LOL"

in regards to ktsnake's comments:
"Within about 30 seconds, I'd had a rock of crack offered to me (at least I think that's what it was), been hit up for $5.00 by some guy that had "just gotten out of prison" and essentially had to flee the scene because about 12 people were coming up on my car pretty fast."

I'm from the Memphis area and yes I can definitely believe it, there are some very nice areas and there are some areas you don't go to, even during daylight hours.

-Mark
Just letting everyone know, I don't think ktsnake is exagerating.[spelling?]

Honestly, not 100% sure what it was. It was a rock of something. I don't really know what different drugs look like. Not an expert on that stuff.

All I can say is never pull off at 4:30AM on the first exit heading East past downtown Memphis :D

It could be because my friends and I resembled the usual clientelle? White, middle class looking 20-somethings in an SUV?

Not sure if you're questioning the veracity of my story or just amused at my luck.

I don't claim to have all the answers.

I don't even claim to have any of the answers:D

All I can tell you is that the present system and circumstances only perpetuate the situation.

I'm sure that studies do show that the economy in some areas is positively effected by the industry of policing and incarcerating people. However, all the money to support those activities comes from government spending. Government spending comes from taxes -- money that is siphoned out of the economy in the first place. If there's less government spending, there's more private spending. The money doesn't go into a hole. My heart goes out to the prison guards and police officers that would be left without a job. Fortunately, the problem cannot be solved overnight, so if there was a decrease in such jobs it wouldn't be a sudden thing.

DHS needs more authority to get kids out of bad situations, drugs should be legalized (but controlled) and help should be given to people that want it (education, job skills, not free money).

Re: Re: Re: Gang violence: Why care?
 

:rolleyes:
Look despite the common misconception gangs do not only inhabit the ghettos of cities, they have members and operations everywhere that they have an interest. If it is just a simple street gang that confines itself to a couple of blocks, then I can see your arguement.... but those gangs are far and few between now (well at least in Toronto).

Most gangs seem to be organized along ethnic and criminal activity, not on their socio-economic background (again using Toronto example). Currently the crime of choice for some gangs up here is home invasions, protection (old stand by), prostitution (an older stand by), drugs, and rent'in (guns, vehicles, or muscle for crimes). A couple of years ago they were also into the home-grow pot operations, but organized crime has pretty much pushed them out now.

But my comment about "what makes you think their killing each other?" was meant to make you and others think. Gang rivals rarely call each other up to arange a nice deserted spot to settle their differences. Instead we see the drive-by, coffee shop attacks, or an ambush.... all commited by people that aquired their knowledge of gun play from watching movies.... so people other than the intended target are hit, and some die. There have been cases where a shooter has used a high-caliber pistol, and the round has gone through walls and struck "innocent people" a block or more away. Two years ago I can remember walking home from the bus after a party and hearing something like "fireworks" coming from an apartment, only it was some guy firing an AK-47 at another apartment building to make a "hit", only a couple of people were wounded, including two cops, but it could easily have been worse. The thing is gang hits are made when and where the target has supposedly let their guard down: at home, at the coffee shop, at the club, at a party, at Caribana, at a concert, at the mall, at school, or anywhere else they think they are safe.... all of these have many non-gang members around and as potential "innocent by-standers".

Now Rudey before you go spouting off about me talking about things I don't know or understand I guess I'll have to back myself up now. First personal experience, sure I live in a great neighborhood, with big old houses, but if I walk a couple of blocks I enter some of the more run down housing and apartments in Toronto; there has been shootings, stabbings, murders, drug-dealing, prostitution, and even a couple of cops shot (one killed). You learn to identify the gang's tag marks, and what each is roughly into (hell I went to school with some of these guys), and for the most part they stick to "playing" with each other..... but the secondary sources of income rely on "innocent" people: muggings, home invasions, break and enter, car-jackings, hold-ups, or the black-market... all of which can quickly escalate and result in a dead body. Now for professional information: three of the guys on my men's hockey team are party of the gang task-force that the Toronto Police force has, and after games at the bar work often comes up; usually after a story has hit the papers. The biggest thing is keeping track of which gang is in which rank: 1st- official affiliation with organized crime (big money and support), 2nd- un-official affiliation with organized crime (sort-of like calling up the minors), 3rd- major street gang (more than 100 members, estimated annual income over 4 million), 4th- street gang (around 50 members, no real big money scores, but has a lot of weight in their area), 5th minor street gang (about a dozen or so members, minor crimes for the most part, usually associated with one of the higher ranked gangs). For the most part the maimings and killings are the work of the 3rd-5th ranked gangs, but it may be instigated by one of the upper-ranked gangs or organized crime, because all of these gangs are inter-related to varying degrees.

Not really. Mafia (or Organized Crime) is able to thrive partly due to gangs. Gangs are very public - the Mafia is not. People in certain communities willl know who is in organized crime, but it's not as advertised. The police have to focus on Gang violence because it is a large public risk - letting organized crime more leeway to run.

I'm still amazed how open about the word Mafia we are. Two generations ago - you didn't dare utter the name. (I'm half Italian and my grandmother still doesn't like talk of it in her house)

Re: Re: Re: Re: Gang violence: Why care?
 

Seriously you never make any sense. Those people don't have power, and, hence, don't "matter."

-Rudey
--You still don't know what you're talking about.

I have the "pleasure" of driving through some pretty shady areas around my campus on a regular basis. For those of you who don't know, Marquette is boarded by a freeway on two sides and a bad neighborhood on the other two. I drive alone at night, I walk alone at night, I go to shady gas stations alone at night, and the worst that happens is that people ASK me for money (not hold me up) or ask for my phone number. I don't know what on earth you were doing in Memphis, but I've got a good friend who lives there and hasn't been offered anything in the year he's lived there. The only time I've ever been offered drugs is by the son of a Fortune 500 exec at a high school party. Something to think about...

Before we went to Sicily, we were instructed NOT to talk about the Mafia at all, but were reminded that we would see the impact they have had on the island.

I guess as outsiders, they really did not want us to talk about something we had no idea about...it is different when it's your people. ;)

As for gang violence, I have even less experience in urban settings (ever seen The Truman Show? That's where I live...really.) than most of you who are posting. I would like to think that positive influences within a community could stop this, but I'm not so sure.

The only times I have ever been offered drugs were at waterfront homes and at my Ivy League undergrad. Bwa ha ha.

But that's a new phenominom (sp?). 40 years ago in Italia you wouldn't dare mention it.

Btw - I'm first generation Canadian - my father is from the southern mountains

I can identify with that.... at my high school it was verboten to speak of the Mafia (even as a joke). I guess it came from the fact that there were a number of kids whose parents were connected. While some of them denied it, some privately admitted it.... and some couldn't deny like the Commisso kids. Hanging-out with some of the guys I was never told anything outright, but you do pick-up on things...