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Obey? Submit? What do you think??
AKAtude posed something interesting on another thread so I decided to start a new one. Plus, Idea08 is rubbing off on me a bit (j/k luv ya girlie! ha ha) so I have a question for you guys to answer:
Most of us, whether Christian or not, are familiar with the phrase "wives submit to your husbands" from the Bible (Ephesians 5:23). Ladies (married, divorced, planning to, want to, ain't even got no prospect--heck guys can get in on this one too!), what do you think about this and the word "obey" in marriage vows? Did you say it? Will you say it? Men, expect your wife/future wife to do it? I'd love to hear your views! FELT COMPELED TO ADD: I am looking for intelligent, well thought out conversation here. If you disagree with someone fine, just don't be disagreeable! Respect the other person's right to believe and think what they do! Not sure what they meant? ASK FIRST!! you know, like "Can you explain your statement XYZ to me? I'm not following you." Let's try not to call into question a person's character, morality, family background, etc. as we discuss. In other words...PLAY NICE!! LOL [This message has been edited by Eclipse (edited April 19, 2001).] |
first and foremost i must preface my response by saying that in many instances the bible is WRONGLY interpreted...to fully understand the context of the verse in question you have to one take the entire chapter and maybe even the entire book in to consideration...place, time, context, culture, misinterpretation past and present, as well as the fact that the king james version at least is highly questionable in some areas...if i am ever married i will not say obey...not to disrespect my husband but a marriage in my opinion does not negate the equality of man and wo-man...therefore i expect him to treat me the way that i treat him...obey implies that there is a lesser equal of the two...man and wo-man are fully equal on all levels... http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif
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I am currently in a courtship with a young lady (who is a Gamma Sig), and she says that the word "obey" must be taken out of the vows. We are currently in disagreement on that. Men are to love their wives as Christ loved the Church. Conversely, the wife must obey the husband as the Church must obey Christ. In other words, the present day marriage is symbolic of the ultimate union of Christ to the Church (soon to come).
The man is to be the head of the household, and the woman is to submit to the head. Or, as my pastor put it, The husband is the head, the wife is the neck that turns the head. OTOH, being that husbands are the head of the household, we are to serve our wives and to be humble in all our endeavors. As far as our courtship goes, I doubt that it will go any further until this matter is resolved. Not compromised, mind you, but resolved. I don't want ego, hers or mine to destroy the marriage before it starts. Match Game '73 |
Eclipse, you already know how I feel. So, I'm just going to keep my trap shut. Y'all know what I mean. http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif
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Are you saying that the Bible is outdated in the 21st century? If not, then if you say that the Scriptures in question are wrongly interpreted, what is the correct interpretation of Ephesians 5:23? If obey implies there is a lesser equal of the two, (1) then why would God create Eve for Adam, with the intent of giving Adam a help-meet, and (2) why would we have Ephesians 5:23 as a Scripture in the first place? It would sound to me as if God deliberately created Eve as a lesser being from the word GO! (which of course is not true). If we were to be perfectly honest with ourselves, in this shallow materialistic 21st century American society, because of sin, neither men nor women, by and large, want to obey/be submissive to anybody/any being. That is why I think a lot of people take issue with the word "obey". |
**AKAtude is biting her tongue...really hard. Her fingers are wiggling over the keyboard.**
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I don't think Victoria's Secret is saying the Bible is outdated for any century. Simply that when you look at the linguistic honesty in many translations, and MOST ESPECIALLY THE KING JAMES VERSION (which is believed by many Bible scholars to have the MOST mal-interpretations), what you read, is not what was said. And that in reading a verse, it is important to understand to the best of one's ability, what was going on at that time. For example, if a letter was written to a disobedient group of people, like the Corinthian's, we need to understand that Book of the Bible as a book of correction to some who had gotten out of hand. Or, where in Peter it says that a woman should not wear braided hair, but humility (or something like that), is Peter really saying you can't wear extensions or weave? Or is he trying to correct a problem of the sin of pride? It is the context that is very important. Rainman, if it's that big of an issue for you, then I commend you on the fact that you will not compromise. But as far as I'm concerned, I don't believe that marriage relegates me to the position of being un-equal to my husband (to be that is!). So no, I will not use the word "obey" in my ceremony. I have one father on earth, and one in Heaven. By the way, correct me (nicely, that is) if I'm wrong, but there isn't one passage of the Bible that is called "marriage ceremony" is there? Is there a scripture that says the wife says: "I will love, honor, and obey my husband"? Cuz if not, than it would seem to me that this is just another "tradition" that doesn't have real merit. BTW, Vic's Secret, if that's not what you meant, didn't mean to stick my opinion in your mouth! [This message has been edited by 1 Woman of Virtue (edited April 19, 2001).] |
As long as she promises to do what DL Hugley's wife wouldn't do in "The Brothers" we are ok. She don't have to obey, just hit a brother off, and I will do likewise.
Now Rainman, you know better than to come up into a woman's chat room talking that stuff. It's called quiet diplomacy. You can be the head of the household, and it will be known without the woman having to say that she will obey. There are a lot of things that are said in the bible, that we will not adhere to. To me, people tend to pick and choose what aspect of the bible they want to obey, and then throw the rest out. There are a lot of things in the bible that if we followed it strickly to the wording, all of us would be in trouble. I know I would. Peace MN |
I am really enjoying this discussion. I would like to say for the record, that men/husbands do not have it easy just because of the wife submitting to the husband. The men have their work cut out for them and they do have to step up to the plate when it comes to being the head of the household.
Do I believe in a balance between husband and wife? YES, I DO!!! The husband supplies the food, the wife supplies the meal. The husband supplies a house, the wife supplies a home. The husband supplies the seed, the wife supplies the child. Etcetera and so on. Further, I feel another point is being missed on this whole submit/obey debate. When you really love your husband, and really want to put your all into the relationship, your submission won't come because you feel morally obligated to do so, it will come naturally. It won't feel like submission. Because the husband is putting his all to please you and to keep you feeling secure, you will naturally want to please him, and to keep him encouraged in his endeavors. I think that by wives being submissive to their husbands does not mean you will let your husbands be tyrants and dictators and walk all over you like a rug. NO! What it means is that while you may not always agree with him in his decisions that affect the family, you RESPECT his decisions because he is the head of the household and ultimately responsible for the acheivements and setbacks of the family as a family. In a nutshell, I am divorced for that very reason; my ex could not respect a major decision I had to execute as head of the family (and was a very tough decision to come to). She got upset, refused to talk to me, and ended the marriage, not knowing that afterwards, my personal life picked up immediately afterwards, and she could have been a part of that. Now that I think about it, the reason why the word "obey" has an inferior ring to it, is because of the present day stigma attached to it. It implies, "I am the head, you are the tail", when in a marriage, it should imply, "I am the head, you are the neck that turns the head". Hope this helps. Match Game '73 |
To anyone who knows,
Like I said, I'm not a Bible scholar, so if you know, could you please tell me where the "I will obey my husband" vow is found in the Bible? No, I'm not being sarcastic, but I really would like to know. Thanks! |
I had to reply to this since I am married. I married later in life so was quite independent and confident about taking care of myself and my business without the help of a man--but LOVE got me(LOL). Anyway, I am very opinionated and consider myself a moderate feminist. I have read many books by feminist mainly those of bell hooks. I am a Christian--baptist to be exact. I was counseled as was my husband about a wife submitting to her husband when there is a disagreement about an issue the family faces. I have a big problem with this concept since I am a woman that has a degree and works each day. In other words, I do have a brain and it works just as well as a man's when it comes to making decisions. I think that my husband and I share equally in the submission concept. I think there should be a balance of power in a marriage. My husband and I share that power and it works just fine. When he is wrong, I tell him and vice-versa. However, if he is wrong and we argue and if I think I am right--I will hold the line until the end.(I usually win--LOL) I think the fact that I work makes the concept obsolete, because the Bible also says somewhere around that submission verse that a man should take care of his family. I choose to have a career. Now, if I were a housewife being taken care of by my man--then maybe we can talk about the submission issue on a more level playing field. However, since I am a woman with a career and pay bills (too) then we are an equal partnership in this submission business.
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Okay, if the preacher man won't take the word "obey" out of the ceremony, why not make up your OWN vows to EACH OTHER...
that will eliminate alot of confusion... that's what I plan to do (IF and WHEN I get married), now, if only I will be able to remember them (you know from partying and all the night b4 http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif) I am speaking generally, of course http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif |
I think that the verse has been misrepresented by men for too long. I only wish they would spend half as much time focusing on Ephesians 5:25, which says:
Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her... Stop right there. Christ was willing to give up His very life. That's how deep his love was. verse 28 states: In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. After all, no one ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the church... So, taking into consideration this directive, what woman would not want to submit to a man that loves her so much that he would die for her, because she would know that anything that he asked her to do would only be in her best interest. So, yes, He meant to submit, knowing that your husband would never knowingly do anything to steer you wrong or hurt you. So, I kept the word obey in there - because he also has a promise to keep. And that's my 19.08 cents worth. [This message has been edited by tickledpink (edited April 19, 2001).] |
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The word "obey" is used 69 times in scripture. Forty-one (41) of those times it comes from the Hebrew word "shama" meaning: to hear intelligently/with attention. Thirteen (13) of those times it comes from the Greek word "hupakouo" which means: to hear under (subordinate) i.e. to listen attentively. Now in reference to marriage, the word "obey" is not used---the word "obedience" is used and it comes from the Greek word "hupotasso" which translate: to obey, to be under obedience, submit self unto. Scriptures where it is used and we sistahs are instructed to be in "obedience" are found in: 1 Peter 3:1 / 3:5 and Titus 2:5. I wanted to wait for more postings too, but I will say this, yes, I had, heck, I still do have trouble with "obey/obedience" and yes, it is something I'm working out and working on DAILY with my stubborn self, but I will admit this to my GreekChat family, in my studying GOD'S Word, I've noticed that whenever GOD used the word obey/obedience and the people followed through, it always had AWESOME results and blessings....HMMMM. SWEETAKA, I ditto you and Tickledpink, you can get a AMEN from me. http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif Shalom~ |
Hello all,
Well I'm 100% christian and possibly a future First Lady-yes I'm dating a preacher. I've always planned on making my own vows for my wedding though. |
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O. K. seriously, That Bible teaches many things but life sometimes teaches otherwise. If a man wants a marriage to work with a (Y2K Ready) BLACK woman, he may wanna compromise. Besides, personally I feel women are giving enough as it is just raising children on their own, and sometimes that's with a so called active partner. Just ask my mother about it... It's not about submitting to another based on what the Bible says. It's about giving because you expect the same in return. It's a 2 way street. I know there is supposed to be a head of the household, but REAL BLACK women don't play that sh!$. Just my two bits. I hope I didn't get it started. Hu ooh Hu ooh Hu ooh Hu oooh Get it started Hu ooh Hu ooh Hu ooh Hu Ooh. Oh by the way, I missed all yall. MN, waz up, Big Nupe? Halla at me. Um tryin to go to Klaves. [This message has been edited by Bobby Earl (edited April 19, 2001).] |
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I want to begin by thanking Shalom2U for the interpretation. I have never even thought of that. Butanyway, I am one of the most stubborn people in the world; however, I wouldn't have a problem with the word "obey" in my vows. I would hope that the man that I marry would not want someone who would just "obey" his every "command." But rather, we would work together to come to understandings and respect each other's wishes.
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Obey was NOT in my marriage vows and there was never a discussion about it. In fact my church (Baptist) doesn't use the word obey. My preacher did a sermon once (long time ago) about why he didn't use the term obey. I don't remember his exact words but I do remember the words "equal" and "partnership" being used. My husband and I consult each other before making household decsions. I think SWEETAKA said something about sharing the power. That's what we do and it's all good. Three and a half years and still going. http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif |
"My people hear not and continue to want, for they are a stiff-necked and rebellious people" quote supplied by God when the Hebrews continued to wander aimlessly in the desert for their constant disobedience to the Will of God.
Many of you are letting selfish Pride (which is one of the greatest blessing-blockers around)blur your vision on the correct interpretaion of those words. So many women, Black women in particular, read these passages in a feminist manner when feminism (when used to deliberately ignore God's Word)is of the world and in direct rebellion to the word of God. I'm not saying any of you are wrong for your thoughts and beliefs, but along with Shalom's post, Tickled Pink gave the most correct interpretation of the words obey and submit. The words themselves may sound demeaning to a feminist but when taken in their proper context( which is by decree of the God that many of us claim to serve), they provide the foundation of a harmonious union. If you are going to deliberately ignore the Word of God, why ask Him to sanction the marriage in His house (a Church) and with his Vessel for bringing His Word (a Minister)? I know many Sistas have had to fight the battle for so long without a man worthy of obeying or submitting to(in the Christian since, not abusive) and that is the fault of the Black Man. Woman of Virtue: there is no one passage per se, but the Father, The Son, and the Holy Spirit speak on it often. BTW, I don't want "obey" and "submit" in my vows either. I prefer words more user-friendly words. |
Well here is my $19.08... the word obey was not in my vows http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif but I will say that I believe that a man is and should be the head of the household.. but as you know head does not mean dictate.. every good leader has good council and that is what I am -- my husband's council and some times I give him just a little nudge in the right direction http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif.
and since he is to love me as CHRIST loves the church I have no problem because if my sweet hubby LOVES me that much then he'll do everything in his power to take good care of me http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif But I will say this "Ladies have your own relationship with God..before you have a relationship with anyone...." ------------------ IVY in my HAND-- AKA in my HEART [This message has been edited by loviest95 (edited April 20, 2001).] |
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I think one of the biggest reasons for misinterpretation of the Bible is the fact that it is an interpretation in and of itself for most of us. By working with a translation you are begining with someone's interpretation of the Word. That is always the challenge going from one language to another. Words and their meanings do not always mach up cleanly or accurtely. There are words that are actually bigger concepts that do not exist form language to language and culture to culture. (For demonstration purposes- the term and concept of credit does not exist in many African languages and dialects because they do nt make purchases on credit. Any translation of English then would be inaccuarate because their language cannot accomodate the thoguht.)
As far as the use of obey in my marriage vows- WHEN that day should come, it will not be in my vows. I do beleive that marriage is a partnership and I will consider my husband to be the head of my household. Not the ruler, king or dictator but I will deem him to be the leader. That does not mean that we cannot both lead in diffrent circumstances. In my relationship now we both play the role and lead for various tasks and projects amd problems as is. He does not expect me to do as I am told or need his permission to do anyhing. He respects me as an individual and I respect him the same way. We trus in each ohter to do wha is bes for the collective and to respect each other even when we disagree. Primarily, the word obey will not be there because I do not beleive it fully captures the true meaning God intended to put upon it and that to use our English substitute does not reflect the promise I will be making to God and my husband accurately enough for me to be comfortable with it. I intend to defer to him not to obey him and they are not the same thing. I can respect and work with and defer to my husband without promising to obey him. To me, that is more accurate meaning ebodied in many other terms than obey. |
I have a question, is the word "obey" in each person's vows, or just the bride's? Now, that, I wouldn't allow, simply becuase it takes away balance from the relationship. If it's in both, then that's cool with me.
I have no problem obeying my man in some instances, just as I would hope he would have no problems obeying me in certain instances. I would like to think that I would KNOW my groom inside and out, and I wouldn't marry a man who would take our vows out of context and become a dictator. I do believe that a man should be the head of the household. I would never want to be the head of the household, if for nothing more than aesthetic purposes: I don't want my man looking like a little b*tch. I do like AKA2D's idea of just writing your own vows. AKAtude, would your pastor allow that? Go 'head and let them wigglin' fingers touch the keyboard! LMAO!!! http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif |
Draw it mild my brother - lol
[B]As long as she promises to do what DL Hugley's wife wouldn't do in "The Brothers" we are ok. She don't have to obey, just hit a brother off, and I will do likewise. I agree - it's great to take vows but do we honor the vows we take - - |
When my husband and I got married, we discussed the use of "obey" in our vows. Simply put, it was agreed upon if I had to say "OBEY", he would also. So needless to say, "OBEY" was left out of our vows.
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Lots of good comments here!
When I got married back in '96 (y'all my FIVE year wedding anniversary is in one week!! YAH!), I was adamant about not having obey in my vows. I am very stubborn and had the "how you gone tell me what to do? I'm grown!" attitude. LOL Anyway, as I grow and learn, I understand more of God's command in this area and if I were getting married today, I would say something like "I vow to submit to you as Christ submitted to His Heavenly Father" and I know he would not have a problem saying something like "I vow to love you as Christ loved the Church". I DO see my husband as the head of the household and see one of my most important jobs as praying for him. I pray that God gives him discerment and Godly wisdom and the He orders his (my husband's) steps on a daily basis. Now I personally think that a man's responsibility in a Godly household is tougher that the woman's. He has to, as I think tickled pink mentioned, literally lay down his life for me! I once heard a minister say that he can't let his wife out serve him, because then he would not be the priest of his household! Jesus came as one who serves (see Luke 22:26-27) and the man should follow Jesus' model in serving his wife. Uh huh, that's what I'm talking about! http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif Since my husband knows that I am opinionated and am, if I say so myself, intelligent, he wants me to be included in the decision making process. If he is being lead by God, willing to lay down his life for me, and trying to outserve me, I am not worried about obeying/submitting, etc. I'm just trying to praise God for him!! http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif Of course neither one of us gets it right all of the time (or heck even most of the time, but I figure by about anniversary number 25 we should be real close! http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif ), but that's where grace and mercy comes in. [This message has been edited by Eclipse (edited April 20, 2001).] |
I believe that my mother said it best,"I will follow the man, but I am not going to follow a fool!" She wasn't saying this to say that my dad was fool, but God gave each of us, both women and men the intelligence to make decisions. Now in my family, my mother makes the money decisions and my father follows. It is all about finding out what your strengths and weakness are and allowing your mate to take the lead on things that they are more suited to.
I know that from my past relationships, there have been areas that I was not the expert in. I will always submit to the will of my lady, especailly if I know that she has our common interest in mind. Like I said, both parties should sumbit to the other based on personal strengths and weakness. I personally will not have submit or obey in my vows because I tend to be more attracted to strong women. MN |
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------------------ IVY in my HAND-- AKA in my HEART [This message has been edited by loviest95 (edited April 20, 2001).] |
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Eclipse |
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"doo-doo head" and "(see what had happen wuz)" --- I wonder if your husband and my husband are twins? LOL! http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif Shalom~ |
I discussed this very topic with some co-workers of mine. I (contrary to popular belief) have no qualms about submitting to my husband (when I find someone that is qualified for the job http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif...I'm still interviewing people-LOL). However, what these mens (I said mens on purpose) need to remember is that in the Bible it's also mentioned that God is the husband to the Church. Therefore, think of it like God wants the Church's total submission to Him. He, in turn, blesses & makes VERY sure the Church (His wife) is well taken care of....So, it's not suppose to be like "the kitchen & the bedroom, Florida" discussion that Florida & James Evans had on Good Times. That's just the way I interpret it. http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif
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Tickledpink: I agree with you completely!
Rain Man: I almost agree with you. I don't believe that women were created as "lesser beings", but instead women were created to fulfill different needs than men. Like you said men provide the food and women provide the meals, I think we all can agree that neither one of those tasks is greater or lesser. I think Loveliest95 summed it up perfectly. If we (women AND men) have a personal relationship with GOD FIRST, when we meet and marry that "special someone", our relationship would automatically mirror the relationship that Christ has with the Church. The WORD: It's tight but it's right!! [This message has been edited by Virtuous Woman (edited April 20, 2001).] [This message has been edited by Virtuous Woman (edited April 20, 2001).] |
I like that hopefulprospective...I haven't found a man that would say that in the vows also!!
I believe in equal submission....I will obey as long he is being led by God. Alot of men are not loving their wives as Christ love the Church!! So, as long as he has my best interest at heart and not his own; I can adjust to the submission thing. That love thing is powerful, and if you really find someone that loves to the extent of laying down their life for you, You have sincere love!! That love takes time....too many guys are insignificately using that scripture. God expects women to submit to MEN; NOT BOYs!! Trust me, that is where I draw the line. If you are still a boy, then I don't believe God is expecting that submission. God defines a MAN, and the world describes a Boy. Even Jesse Jackson could't fully obey the scripture. So, Does God expect Mrs. Jackson to submit to him???? This is where I get real messed up....Help me out someone.....!! Quote:
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[This message has been edited by VctoriasSecrt (edited April 23, 2001).] |
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