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thoughts & white supremacists?
much respect...
i was just in here posting on another thread and i thought that this would be an interesting place to ask a question. the other day i was watching an America Undercover on HBO entitled "Army of God" (something like that) it talked about this radical group of people who believe in "killing abortion doctors in an effort to save the babies"...in essence killing to preserve life...interesting oxymoron. in any case, one of the "heroes" of this group is a man who is also loved by white supremacists. i belive his name is phillip randolph *but don't quote me* he is the man who is accused of bombing abortion clinics as well as a gay bar and at the 1996 atlanta Olympics. my question is... i have seen many people on here give very negative, hateful, sickening responses in references to homosexuals. the "feeling" that is injected into some peoples words have been almost murderous. as we know words may often wound deeper than any bullet. in any case, does it ever cross ones mind when they write such hate speech as a black person against a homosexual. that these are the exact words, many times that a white supremacist would say? understand that of course you are welcomed by white supremacists to abuse kill or maime homosexuals...but when they are all gone...you will be next. i say this because its quite fascinating how an oppressed group will oppress another group. but its not just homosexuals that we mimic the rhetoric of white supremacists when oppressing. we have verbal abuses for almost every other ethnic group, religious group, and one another. think about it...theres no need for white supremacists to call us niggers...we do it to ourselves. i know many of you might use the bible to justify your hatred of homosexuals. and i can point you to some sites where white supremacists use the bible to show why we as black people and people of color are meant to be slaves or worse...dead. i am posting this as an intellectual conversation...lets think about this topic and find some reasons why we continue the oppression of other groups. peace, lastpoet [This message has been edited by lastpoetnsite (edited April 08, 2001).] |
This a very good topic indeed. It's one of the most thought provoking topics I've seen here in awhile.
I will venture and say that many people feel as though homosexuality is a chosen thing, that's why people don't feel bad about hate speech towards them. Me personally, I'm indifferent about homosexuals. They neither threaten or enhance my life. I don't see a reason to discriminate against them so I don't. I do think that it's foolish for people to discriminate against them on the basis of their sexual orientation. Even if you believe that homosexuality is a sin, you shouldn't hate. After all, Jesus never preached hate. While I don't advocate the hatred and the discrimination of gays, we must all be real and know that we have all done things of a predjucial and bias nature. Let's not preach it, cause it's easier said than done. And I hope that I answered your question. If not, the thesis of my post is that there is no justification for hatred of any kind. God is Love, and once we sanctified people stop using the Bible as a tool for hatred, the world will be a better place. It starts with us who know Christ! ------------------ KAPPA ALPHA PSI FRATERNITY, INC. SPR 97 XI LAMBDA |
much respect...
thanks nupe4life for your response! i am happy to see that someone is interested. but your response...made me think of another question. one that was actually asked in my Civil Rights Movement History class. you said that you are indifferent to homosexuality. understandable...if you do not know anyone who is homosexual. but the question comes in if one is not actively anti-racist/homophobia/sexist etc. isn't the silence just as deadly...doesn't the silence mean compliance to the evils that are perpetrated against individuals? i hope you are following me. in my civil rights movement class we were asked if one is not actively anti-racist...which means correcting people when they come out the side of their necks with b.s. then aren't you just showing them...with your silence...that you are "okay" with whatever they say or do? feel me? just another piece of the puzzle to think about. peace, lastpoet |
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However, on that same token, for a christian to just sit idly by and say nothing about homosexuality would be the same as condoning the act. Nevertheless, I feel there is an appropriate way of going about it without the use of hate. But is it really worth the time; trying to correct everything about everybody else? We're only on this earth for a short time. We all know it's not forever. So why not do the things that will reserve you a spot in heaven and stop worring about these crazies on earth? |
It's always intrigued me that people will rail against homosexuality (using the Bible as a reference), but be okay with heterosexual relations before marriage (which is admonished more than homosexual relations). I'm not saying that anyone's doing that, but I was talking with my mother about it today, and the racist/heterosexist thread just made me want to reply.
Has anyone else noticed that? |
I have no feelings about homosexuality. I do, however, believe that they are entitled to live their lives without being ridiculed, mocked, and belittled. I hear the pain in the voices of my mother, father, and grandmother as they speak to me about how the south used be. When they tell me about the horrors of segregation, oppression, and blatant racism. For people disecting the bible to use it as a weapon, the bible is the word of God. To pick and choose which parts suit your fancy is to essentially rearrange the words of God to serve man.
To address homophobia: Speaking for where I grew up, a gay black man was something you didn't see. The men who were fixtures in households, and playgrounds fit into one or two categories: classic hunter gatherer or mandingo. The hunter gatherer works 15 hours a day makes an honest living and provides for his wife and children. The mandingo is an individual of vaunted sexual expertise and talents. No man dared veer away from that because of the certain wrath that would have followed. As for verbal abuses, every race has them. Every race has individuals within the race that are willing to use them. All these problems affect our race, and I don't mean skin color. These problems affect the human race and hopefully through honest and meaningful dialogue we can march hand in hand to the utopia of our dreams. ------------------ Many are called, many are chosen, but only a few are PHROZEN! |
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Girl, that was almost a deep thought by Jack Handy if it wasn't so real. |
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Which to me is the biggest sin of all. |
HI there
Just thought I'd voice another opinion. While I do not consider myself homophobic, nor do I take issue with most homosexuals (I dont understand why one can't be a man- sans pseudo female manerisms and the everpopular lisp and love a man). If you have decided to involve yourself in that type of relationship, that is your business, but i don't like the bufoonery that "sometimes" goes along with that lifestyle. But that is just my opinion, I dont condemn the person, just the behavior. I do , however, take issue with people who try to make a serious comparison between our issues and struggles as a people and those of the average homosexaul, particularly the "mainstream American society" homosexual It is a slap in the face of our ancestors. |
Howdy forum! It's been a while but I'm back! I thought I'd share something a professor at one of the Law Schools I've been visiting said in class. He was trying to show the importance of not just hearing the opposing side's views, but UNDERSTANDING THEM from that person's point of view:
"...I'm a Catholic Black man, who happens to actively support gay rights. Now when I was talking to a priest, who for obvious reasons does NOT support gay rights, it was clear that the usual arguments as to whether or not "homosexuality" is a choice or not, were not going to work. Neither was a discussion on if being gay was condemned by God--I already knew what he thought and he already knew what I thought. So some new element had to be entered into the discussion here. I proceeded to pose the following questions to him: Now you believe that accepting Jesus is one of the greatest choices one can make, right? In fact if one were to not choose Jesus, he/she would be eternally damned, and well that sounds like a pretty big choice to me. Anyway, history has taught us that using violence to force one to choose Jesus is the most ineffective, if not the most ridiculous method to use in evangelising. Instead you know show love to thy neighbor, and help your fellow-man, in a hope that by loving your neighbor as yourself, you will win them to Christ, right? Well now when you, as a man who chooses to love your neighbor as yourself, make a decision to support gays in their fight against discrimination, aren't you in fact continuing to love your neighbor as yourself? And if you don't support them, aren't you acting contrary to the wisdom of Jesus?" Saying all of that to say this: I am a Christian woman. And BECAUSE of that, I don't care who you are or what you do, I will show you love, not because God loves YOU just as much as He loves ME, but because God loves ME just as much as He loves YOU. Do I think the act of homosexuality is a sin? Yes. And that may be something that I and someone who does not, may never reconcile--I'm ok w/ that. But, I will not stand for anyone being discriminated against. Just some (long-winded http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif ) thoughts on the matter. |
much respect...
wow...i have enjoyed and been intrigued by the responses that i have seen here. i would though like to reel us back to the topic. granted...from reading your posts many of you believe that homosexuality *the sexual act of it* is a "sin". you are entitled to believe that. we all have different beliefs on what is right or wrong. i think what intrigues me about those comments are the fact that...you may believe that homosexuality is a "sin"...but when someone says something homophobic...whether "innocent" or extreme do you correct the person? because if you are a christian you would know that any type of hate is debilitating (sp?). let me give you some examples: innocent homophobic comment: "why do they have to show that they are gay...why can't they keep that at home?" to which i reply...why do you have to show that you are str8...why can't you keep that at home? extreme homophobic comment: "(explitive) faggots and dykes are going to hell. if one of them hits on me i'll whip their a**!" to which i ask them do they realize that there are people who believe that they should be killed? and hand them some websites where they can see their death enacted. does knowing that your thoughts and views are shared by people who would wish to do you harm cause you any pause for concern? it certainly has caused me some concern. knowing that i am on more than one list to be murdered by white supremacists, me being bi-racial and gay, has caused me to start thinking about my own predjudices. we talk often of our christianity...if jesus was alive today...would he be a gay rights activist? *i did not say that he would be gay* would he be a womans rights activist? would he fight for the civil rights of all people of color? would he embrace any cause that asked for oppression to stop? i believe that he would. because my understanding from biblical text is that regardless of everything that he said...within his word was the addage..."love your neighbor as yourself" did you know that there are some "christian websites" that actually say that God does not preach love....but vengence? bringing us again back to the topic...if our thoughts, words, and sometimes deeds about any group are similar to those who would cause us harm because of our skin color or ethnicity...then what does that say about us? should we continue to think and act the way that we do...but complain about the Klan parading in our neighborhoods...when quick as a flash we would be the first to turn our back on a gay friend/sorority sister/frat brother/relative etc. does that make us any better? i would say no. lets think about this topic more in a way of how we could stop causing what these groups want...disention(sp?) in the ranks. because as long as we are seperate...we will get nothing done. peace, lastpoet [This message has been edited by lastpoetnsite (edited April 09, 2001).] [This message has been edited by lastpoetnsite (edited April 09, 2001).] |
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And as I stated before, you cannot be an advocate of certain types of hate and not expect to be recipricated. What goes around comes around, but if we stopped sending it (hate) around, there would be nothing to come back to bite us in our own butts. Quote:
When Jesus was on earth he was not an advocate for anything but the word of God. It was through his teaching of the word of God that he GAINED an audience. He did not seek an audience. I know that he was a fisher of men, but fishermen use hooks and bait, sit around and wait, and the fish come to them. It was because of the miracles (Bait) that most people came to even see Jesus. He didn't walk up on people and say "hey, what you're doing is wrong" (advocate), He used oppourtunities to witness to people, never saying what they were doing was wrong. If anything he was usually asking..."would it be wrong of ME?". In fact, he was minding his own buisness when he forgave that man of his sins on a sabboth, when one of the preist started that "who does he think he is" gossip. Jesus used that opportunity to teach them and gain even more believers by restoring his ability to walk. He only talked to those who had ears to hear. Those that didn't....oh well. He never forced an issue. When the man didn't want to give up his money and follow him (after HE CAME to Jesus asking what could he do to be a deciple), he let it go and used that opportunity to show the rest of the followers how hard it would be for a rich man to get into heaven. So, if what I've said is true, we, as christians, do not have to advocate for gay rights or any other rights for that matter. If we choose to do so, then that is something that concerns the world and not God and is neither right nor wrong from a christian (christ-like) standpoint. By the same token, we don't need to go up to a gay person and tell them, hey man what you're doing is wrong. All we have to do is wait for an oppourtunity. When the subject comes up when you're with someone you know on a personal level or if someone comes to you as they have in this forum then it is your duty to witness (state the word of God) to them in a sincere manner, void of hatered. If someone says something around you that you know to be offensive to the word of God, then, by all means, say something (be careful when trying this on starngers). If you know the word, you will have no problems knowing when to speak up and when to let it go. [This message has been edited by serenity_24 (edited April 09, 2001).] |
*WARNING*
A BIT LONG I believe that all of God's children are deserving of respect, love and equality. And since we are all children and not parents, we have no right to say who should be first and who should be last, who gets reward and who gets punishment. We can only love each other, do what we believe is right (without having to broadcast our disapproval of others who aren't doing as we think is right) and hope that our Creator is pleased with the way we demonstrated our faith. I disagree with my fellow humans who shun homosexuality as a choice or lifestyle. I cannot believe that the majority of gay/lesbian folks would consciously make a choice to lead such a difficult life. I also don't believe that people can "turn that way" or be "recruited" by a childhood and/or abusive experience. I also don't believe that God would purposely create people who are gay with the thought of sending them to hell for expressing the sexuality HE gave them. I don't know His mind on this; I only know a FEW passages of the Bible, written by men, that speak of God's condemnation. This same book also speaks of His grace, mercy and love, so I can't make a definitive ruling. Nor is it my place to do so. I also disagree with the comment about effeminate gay men, made by another poster. I CANNOT STAND the ghettoness of MANY, MANY of my family, neighbors and others, but I don't have the right to dictate when and where people can express themselves, simply because it irritates, embarrasses or offends me. Sexual expression and ghettoness ARE two different things, I know, but I compared them as an example. I do not tolerate racist, homophobic or sexist talk/action in my midst. I truly believe that when you allow that, you need to understand that you are a silent co-conspirator in the hate that's being set forth in such talk/actions. I can't remember the name of the poem, and I'm not sure, but I think it was Eli Weisel (really not sure though) who wrote something to the effect that "when they came for the Jews, I said nothing; when they came for the Catholics, I said nothing....when they came for me, there was no one to cry out..." This is just a paraphrase, but I firmly believe if you allow nastiness toward someone else to take place in your midst, rest assured that nastiness about you (whether personally, as a woman/man, black person, etc.) is taking place when you are not present. |
This is a great topic. I really gave this some though, because I am at times guilty of not being as politically correct as I could be.
Oddly enough, I was thinking about a Boy Meets World episode (I love that show). And Cory, for those of you who know the show, calls his friend Shawn a wop. Of course Shawn gets upset, but no one else in the class does. Cory goes on to say that when someone calls someone else a name, it is not cool that just that person gets upset. If someone makes derogatory statements about a group, it is not cool that just that group gets upset, because that is what allows that kind of thought to propogate. We have to all get upset and all stop it. HOmosexuality is an individual choice. I neiher judge nor condone it, for its not my place. But people should be free to live their lives as they see fit with out fear of perscution, either physically or verbally. Thanks lastpoetnsite for giving me something to think about. |
much respect...
again i would like to thank everyone for their well thought out responses. i appreciate everyone giving their opinions on the topic. but although i have remarks for everyone i'd just like to address doggystyle82 for a moment. my brotha i see that you are strong in your religious conviction which i am very impressed by. but i think that you may have viewed my posts and the original question or comment that started this thread as trying to force my views on others. that was not my intention. before i begin i would ask that you be just as respectful to me and the others posting...those you agree with and those you don't...because i will be respectful to you. not because i feel that i have to...but when discussing intellectual topics such as these...i find it is much easer to be open to others thoughts and beliefs. and debate such issues without accusatory tones to our writing. when we write in anger...those are the quickest ways to get a thread closed. i am hoping that we can be civil. in any case, i am not out to change how you think. i am in no way asking you or anyone else to love homosexuality, abortion, sexism, racism etc. that is not my intention. but in taking my Civil Rights Movement class, seeing that America Undercover, and seeing hate interacted on my campus and in my own life. i began to put two and two together. what i have noticed is that hate is ciclical (sp?). each ism and phobia is intertwined with one another. when a white person for instance spits "nigger" at a black person...we immediately get up in arms. but if that black person spits "faggot" at a gay person...it is almost like that is acceptable. my question has been all along...how does one oppressed group justify their oppressive actions against another oppressed group? the use of the bible *and i do not say that i am a scholar by any means* has been used to justify all types of oppression. i am sure we can agree on that. it has been used to justify slavery, sexism, racism, elitism, classism, all holocausts, etc. so are those uses of the bible "bad" but when used to oppress homosexuals then that means its okay? i don't understand that kind of thinking. but going back to the original thought process. i posted this topic because of the America Undercover that I had been watching. my question again...bringing us again back to the topic...was basically... if our thoughts, words, and sometimes deeds about any group are similar to those who would cause us harm because of our skin color or ethnicity...then what does that say about us? we have gotten onto the homosexuality topic a little more than i hoped because this topic is much bigger than our acceptance or hatred of homosexuals. this is also about how we view other people of color, women who have abortions, sexism, classism, racism etc. how do we justify our anger with a group who would just as soon have us killed for our color...when we have similar beliefs about other groups of people. i also did a search in a couple of forums about homosexuality. and i can say that some of the things that i read were disturbing, hurtful, and sad. but those were my feelings from someone elses opinion...of which i respect. i understand that you my brotha are a strict conservative christian who has great love of his religion and i respect that. i did find it unsettling that such things as bestiality, pedophillia, and necrophillia were mentioned in the same context as homosexuality. but i recognize that these are on the same level in your opinion...which i respect but highly disagree with. i have read many of your posts in the past and i can tell that you are on fire for your beliefs. but again i ask as i respect you...i would hope you would respect me and the others on this thread and use your vast knowledge and no-nonsense style to impart wisdom like honey and not like vinegar. i would like to ask again...to everyone that we think about this in a broader sense. true homophobia is a topic of discussion in how one group oppresses another but there is a broader scope to this topic. i have so much more to say but i will sit back and read your opinions again. thank you for the wonderful intellectual discussion...and this goes to those i agree with and those that i don't. peace, lastpoet |
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I think that hatred in any form is wrong. I don't, however, think that people's feelings are wrong. I, personally, don't agree with being "politically correct." I think that people can be "real" and tactful at the same time. Being PC, to me, is just a way to BS how you "really" feel. Otherwise the term wouldn't exist. If you are afraid of homosexuals and their lifestyle, that's ok, because that's how you feel, and no one is in a position to tell someone else how they "should" FEEL. To HATE someone based on how you FEEL, that in my opinion is wrong, based on MY belief system. I can't begin to speak to people on how they should feel or whatever, because their belief system may be different from my own. However, it's not the HATRED that oppresses people, it's the ACTIONS that stem from hatred. I think that when we begin to condemn other people for how they think and feel, we foster silence. Who wants to speak out about how they feel if they think that they are gonna get condemned for it? Silence fosters fear, and fear fosters hate. You're right, it is a cycle. |
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Doggystyle, bring your post back!!! http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif |
[quote]Originally posted by Discogoddess:
*WARNING* A BIT LONG I also disagree with the comment about effeminate gay men, made by another poster. I CANNOT STAND the ghettoness of MANY, MANY of my family, neighbors and others, [QUOTE] I am not sure if you are referring to my post or not, but since I mentioned that point, I'll respond: I am glad you compared effeminate behavior to extreme "ghettoness" because, I feel the way about both. I would not presume to tell either how to live their life, but I certainly don't think its wrong for me to disagree with their behavior. Do I think ghetto behavior is a problem and a possible liability to our people? YES Do I think effeminate behavior is a problem in our community and a possible liability to our people? YES Quote:
A person may not necessarily be anti-gay,but when society tells us that we should give the same value to all customs and mores in society, and if we don't, we're bigots, I think that where a lot of the frustration comes from. If all these different social customs, cultures, and other "preferences" are supposed to be acceptable and accepted by everyone, why doesnt one superculture exist where we all partcipate in a little of all customs and mores. Quote:
[This message has been edited by HopefulJD (edited April 10, 2001).] |
HopefulJD and others:
I hear where you're going with the "anti-PC" stuff, but just don't get your feathers ruffled when a "disgruntled white man" says the same things about racial issues as you're saying about sexuality issues. Are the two the same? No, but in our culture, we all want to be able to comment and criticize other groups, but have a hissy fit when others do it to us. Black people are NOTORIOUS for this. We feel ANY commentary about us by non-blacks is inherently racist, and will demonstrate, burn newspapers and call Al Sharpton n'em for any least little viewpoint offensive to our sensibilities. But let someone else get offended with our rhetoric (in this case, lastpoet was reacting, I presume, to the thinly veiled biases many have shown against gay/lesbian people on GC), then we want to holler about everyone being free to express an opinion. On GC, we get especially huffy with those not towing the line, then pretend we're all open-minded. Having said all that, I'm surprised that DoggyStyle82 decided to delete his post. I do not agree with some of his views, but I respect his right to his own opinions. I'm surprised someone so passionate about them would choose to back out of the fray once the topic "got hot," so to speak. |
much respect...
i am also wondering what happened to doggystyle82's response. both the one that i replied to earlier and the one that he subsequently replied to as well. doggystyle82 if you would like to continue our discussion via email i am more than open to that...my email address is: sdchrismon@hotmail.com. i think that you have some interesting thoughts and i am always open to hearing other viewpoints. please feel free to email me. i am very welcome to all opinions those i agree with and those i don't. i only ask that we be respectful of one another as we engage in intellectual conversation. what i mean when i say how does one group justify their oppressive actions against another group? i am basically stating...how do we as black people justify our anger with racists...when we also use racial epithets, derogatory speech, and occasionally resort to violence against other groups who are also oppressed in our country. to oppress another group does not necessarily mean that we physically, monitarily, or socially hold them down. but it is clear that excessive exposures of oppressive speech can affect an individual. take for example internalized racism. i am sure many of you understand this concept but i will give you my understanding of it. internalized racism occurs when one is consistently exposed to racist expression and then begins to believe that these things are true. in turn not only do they believe these things but express them to others. we often point out those who have extreme cases of internalized racism when we discuss people like Ward Connerly. i know people at my university who suffer from internalized racism. one gentleman in particular often says that, "its okay if white people calls us niggers because thats what we are...and its their world anyway." he also says things such as, "black women are stupid." and "black men need white men to help them better themselves" clearly this is a case of internalized racism to an extreme. but it is an example. my main point and maybe this will be a better restating...is hate and the act of hating the same when it is a person of color doing it to other oppressed groups as it is when a white person does it to oppressed group? do we find ourselves more "tolerant" of certain kinds of hate speech because we find the group either "morally" irresposible or have been affected by their actions against us? and if this is the case...how can we say to white supremacists who clearly from their dogma finds us, as black people, "morally" irresponsible and due to their beliefs that such things as civil rights and affirmative action have subsequently "affected" them in attaining "their jobs" (clearly i am spouting their rhetoric)...that they are wrong for their hate? this thread was not just about homosexuality. which of course is the hot button issue and has been wildly run with. but what about the hate that we spit out against women and against other races? can we justify our intolerance for hate when it is white on black...but we are tolerant when it is black on others. that is my thought process. i would like to reiterate again that i am in no way trying to as our elequent brother doggystyle82 stated trying to initialize the "thought police". never that. i too have read 1984 and other books like it. i am a strong believer in free speech. as a political science major and a registered member of the ACLU i am extremely pro-free speech. i may not agree with what folx say. but i do support them in their right to say it. i just prefer to have open respectful communication between two differing groups. i believe that once we have that all things can be talked out. in any case...this is a post for the moderators. i do not suspect to know your minds nor how you may run the thread. but if you deem it necessary to lock the thread then i understand. my hope is that we can continue to have some intellectual discussion and keep trying to understand one another one word at a time. thanks. peace and thank you, lastpoet |
As I stated before, you cannot be an advocate of certain types of hate and not expect to be recipricated. What goes around comes around, but if we stopped sending it (hate) around, there would be nothing to come back to bite us in our own butts.
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I do feel that being an African American has made me, and probably most of us, sensitive to the plight of other people, but to say that we must be tolerant of all lifestyles and people simply because we are Black, I think, is a joke and speaks volumes about our place in the societal hierarchy. |
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I find it funny how some people are so quick to seek the bible for answers on how they should treat or view blacks/homosexuals/ women, etc.. and use certain passages to justify their beliefs. I think the real answer to how should we treat others is best summed up in the quote, "Do unto others as I have done unto you". And the last time I checked, the Lord has done nothing but love each and everyone of us no matter how much we "sin". |
This topic is quite interesting, and I have been reading it for several days.
It's very interesting what people have to say on the topic of not just homosexuality, but oppressed groups in general. After spending some time in Catholic School (intense Bible study), I have realized that the Bible is one of the most conflicting books of all time. People tend to support/utilize Bible scriptures when they have personal gain (i.e. to prove a point). It seems odd that the very same people will forget the scriptures when they want to have premarital sex, have children out of wedlock, cheat, steal, lie, abuse, forget to thank God for his blessings, and just plain forget that God creates EVERYONE and claims to love EVERYONE! The Bible has never been and never will be a shield for personal use. It's obvious when a person is hiding behind the Word...to both GOD and the people he created. I don't recall God telling me it was okay to adhere to some things he said and tiptoe around others. I always felt that it’s all or nothing with Religion. There might be some parts you wonder about but if you have faith you have FULL FAITH, not just faith in the things you want to believe in and blind sight the things you don’t. As far as the oppression issue: I find that there is always some group that is being picked on. Shoot, look at American history! Native Americans, Chinese people (the ones that worked on the railroads), Blacks (slaves and their descendents), Jews (at one time considered the WORST kind of immigrant), women (from Eve on up 'till now), Muslims/Arabs (Damn Sadam), and Japanese people (WWII), have all been oppressed and/or under serious scrutiny. Right now Gays are fighting for more rights so right now everyone is talking/criticizing the homosexuals. In 10 years it might be a whole new group. **Please keep in mind that the Bible was used to argue points about slavery, the Native American issue, and women wanting the right to vote. Peace ya'll! |
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You can only go so far with that quote. Everybody is not on the same level when it comes to doing unto others. What I might do may seem cool to me and flat out wrong to the next person. I say if you are a christian, stick to what the bible says. We do need the bible for guidance. Yes it was used to justify things, but where did those passages come from, New or Old Testement? Jesus' teachings are strictly in the New Testement. He even says, I know you've heard this but I came to say this..... meaning that some of the things you learned from the old testement has changed. In the New Testement it clearly shows that all men are equal in the eyes of the Lord. So I say the bible (especially the new testement) is your guide. Use it. P.S. I dont mean to pick and chose what you read, but you know that if you read "an eye for an eye" in the old testement, it has been corrected in the new testement (ie. turn the other cheek). |
What happend to the post by Doggystyle? http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/rolleyes.gif
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I've tried to stay out of this fray, but the Holy Spirit just won't let me. I am a Christian. I have given my life to Christ and try to follow him in everything that I do and say. Do I fail? All the time!! But when I fall down, like Donnie McClurkin, I repent and get back up again, knowing that He forgives me. Jesus did say love everyone, but he was unwavering in his viewpoint on unrepentant sin. Unrepentant sin was an abombanation (sp?) in his eyes. Yes, he loved everyone, but he also got very angry with folks as well. Look at his view of the Pharisees. Look at how he threw the money changers out of the temple. Jesus did not say "Hey, I love you, so it's o.k." He said "Hey I love you and I want to join me he Heaven so change your ways." He forgave the woman who was about to be stoned, yes, but he told her "go and sin no more."
I have no hatred for homosexual (or liars, or , those having premarital sex or those that spew hate at others) nor do I condemn. But I also cannot say that it's o.k. It is also no t my job to judge those that are not Christians. It is my job to witness to those people (when given the opportunity and prompted by the Holy Spirit) and get them to know the full saving grace of Jesus Christ. If a person professes Christ then it is also important, I think, to share what I know about God's will for our lives (again, when given the opportunity and when prompted by the Holy Spirit). Do I have all of answers? Of course not! But I share what I know and it is up to the Holy Spirit to do the convicting, not me. I know that God will judge ME on those times when I was silent and should have spoken up (that's when confronted with any sin) as well as the times when I willfullly disobeyed him. I |
much respect...
alas this thread is going nowhere. we are so caught up in the so-called "sin" of homosexuals that no one has even thought about the sin of murdering innocent people in the name of eliminating gay people. or what about those people who as i said in my very first post who kill doctors who perform abortions in the sake of preserving life. or what about the men and women who murdered black people like james byrd. or what about the hateful words that cause pain and wound young minds. what about that? we get so caught up in trying to cast sin onto homosexuals. that we have not once thought about the hatred that we spew towards one another and other groups. the topic of this thread was not just about homosexuality and the question whether it was a sin or not. the topic of this thread was about hatred and oppression. how one group...ours...African-Americans...who were enslaved in the most brutal slavery system up to that time that was known to man...and who thusly has suffered and continues to suffer the remnants of that enslavement through our mental, physical, and spiritual shackles...could in with sanity spew hatred onto another group when we know personally that hatred is the reason why our ancestors were lynched, raped, tortured, denied access to education etc. why would we...who claim to have suffered through the most oppressive system in the world...and many of our ancestors were killed in the most devastating holocaust (transportation through the diaspora) have the audacity to hate another group. and since we do this...does this make us any better...than people like Dr. William Pierce, writer of The Turner Diaries (a book that describes a race war where all the blacks are murdered by the so-called "superior" whites/aryans and it is the book Timothy McVeigh used as the basis for his Oklahoma City bombing) and Nathan Hale, leader of the World Church of the Creator will str8 up tell you that black people need to go back to Africa at the very least but in their minds the best solution...is the ultimate solution...i.e. extermination. now tell me how in our right minds could we on one hand embrace and act out (through words or deeds) their beliefs about other groups and yet still hate them for what they say about us? a double standard...i think so. in any case...for those that responded i appreciated it. i appreciated that everyone gave their opinions...whether i agreed with you or not...its always nice to deviate from fun topics to talk about more intellectual ones from time to time. i just suggest that no one else post on this one...basically because we are only going in circles...we don't want to focus on the big picture. thank you again. peace, lastpoet [This message has been edited by lastpoetnsite (edited April 11, 2001).] |
Unfortunately lastpoetnsite, a lot of people cannot get past the homosexual part and address the real issue at hand that you bring up. I believe this is why so many homosexuals are oppressed. It's not that people can't see the bigger picture, they don't want to. It seems as if people took my post way out of context to justify why they don't agree with homosexuality. That was not the intent of my post. If it was taken as a whole. The point I was trying to stress and the reason for stating the quote I used was- TO TREAT OTHERS AS WE WANT TO BE TREATED. If you don't like to be oppressed, don't do it to someone else.
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You keep trying to take your post to the topic at hand, but there is so much rhetoric surrounding it. You keep using these examples, and then don't want us to focus on the examples. If you want to stick to the point, let's stick to the point. Were the people who killed the abortion doctors all Black? If not, then like you said, what about them? Please give me a CONCRETE example of this HATRED that we as African-Americans have for another group of people. And I don't want examples about "a handful of people that said this" or "a handful of people that did that." Because it takes way more than a handful of people to oppress another group of people. Please correct me if I'm wrong, or if I have misunderstood the topic. We are talking about Blacks oppressing other groups, right? |
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I think that besides a radical fringe that, I hope, does not frequent this site, you would be hard pressed to find someone who will advocate the killing of homosexual people because of their sexual orientation or doctors who perform abortions, regardless of their stance on either of these issues. I do think it is important to treat human beings with love, dignity and respect. I am a HR professional and I would no more deny someone a job/promotion (a form of oppression I believe) than I would someone who is an unwed mother (visual proof of premarital sex). These actions have nothing to do with someone's ability to do a job. Let me ask you a question....How do you define oppression? What specific behaviors would one demonstrate when they oppress others? [This message has been edited by Eclipse (edited April 11, 2001).] |
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Lastpoet,
Much respect, but your question is very simple and it really didn't take 33 posts to get it answered. Your question was how can blacks spew out words of hate against homosexuals and any other group when we know that hatered was the fuel for the murders of our ancestors. You had your answer in the first couple of post. At least in my posts. Check my 1st, 3rd, and 5th posts. There you should find your answer. Ill reiterate it just for old times sake. We as blacks as christians as people should not send hate out into the world by any means. Not through the words we speak the things that we do nor the the way we feel in our hearts. And again, that is simply a teaching of Christainity. Sin is by thought, word, and deed. The reason why the posts took a slight turn was because the homosexuality portion was the original example you used to try and get us to see that by hating homosexuals we are just feeding the hate fires of racists. I also addressed the fact that while a Chirstian should not address homosexuality with hatred, they do have a responsibility to witness to others about what God said about the issue (when the opportunity presents itself - Check my 3rd post), thus contributing to the bend in the direction of the posts, but at the same time explaining (not justifying) why some people speak so vehemently against homosexuality. So I get it!!! I get it!!!! And now that your question has been answered (at least by me) maybe we wont need a post # 35. [This message has been edited by serenity_24 (edited April 11, 2001).] |
much respect...
my sista, serenity_24...much to your dismay...i must post a #35 but you are not required to read it. i recognize that throughout this thread you have given your answers. and they are appreciated. surely you did not believe that the post that i made before this one was in any way directed solely at yourself. i appreciated that everyone was using an example from my question of how can black people use the rhetoric of hate used by those who would do us harm and justify these actions as right and at the same time call someone else a racist. but the fact was...everyone picked up the example about homophobia...and failed to recognize that there were other examples. like how we treat other racial or ethnic groups [for example=i have heard black people say things like "wetback", "spic", "jap", "jew 'em down", "sand nigger" etc.], or how we treat other religious groups [for example=i have heard black people call people sinners for believing in or celebrating santeria and yoruba. i have heard black people tell muslims that their religion is not real. or that they are going to hell] or how about how we treat one another [for example=why do we continue to use the word nigger? nigga...whatever...its still the same!] now no one even talked about how these examples of oppressive speech can continue to divide us. and then on top of it...why do we even engage in this oppressive speech if we know what it is like for it to be used against us. now some of you "get" where i was going. but the constant use of homophobia...instead of looking at the larger picture of oppressive speece, discrimination, bigotry etc. and how it affects our lives was disregarded. again...as i have said in my past posts...i respect and appreciate everything that those of you have written. some i agree with some i do not. but in a thread such as this we must instead of trying to attack one another find some way to communicate without attacking, being accusatory, and attempting to shut one another down. when i asked that no one else post to the thread...i saw that for the most part...this thread had descended to a discussion on the "morality" of homosexuality and how as a christian if one should or should not defend someone from being bashed *whether the words are extreme or not*. the thread was not being productive...and so i wanted to end it before there was a great shouting match. so although i appreciated all of your posts...i just thought that before the thread got out of hand...and the ability to have rational intellectual conversation got completely thrown out the window...we could end it on a note of agreeing to disagree. peace, lastpoet |
SERENITY24:
You said everything that I wanted to say with more clarity. When I saw that LASTPOETINSITE was running a pseudo-intellectual shell game , it wasn't worth it. You have pointed out her blatant disingenuousness in structuring her argument. She tries to sound gracious and accomodating in her responses when she really is the one being accusatory, biased, and prejudiced against those who don't side with her, especially Christians, whom she never failed to bash in each of her posts. |
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Pseudo-intellectual? Disingenuous? Christian-bashing??? When and how exactly was lastpoetnsite being those things? http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/confused.gif I found her to be very respectful. I think that she presented herself in a very intellectual manner. I certainly didn't think that she was prejudiced against those who didn't agree with her. I think she is passionate about her beliefs, which happen to be different from the beliefs of some of the people on this thread. There's nothing wrong with that. As far as her being disingenuous...disingenuous means not straightforward or not candid. How was she not straightforward in her argument? As far as Christian-bashing, I think she was giving her perspectives on the way some people use their Christianity and their beliefs to oppress others. It didn't appear that she was making an across-the-board criticism of Christianity in general. In fact, I don't think she ever said that she had anything against Christianity itself. After all, Christianity was never the topic of the original post. The original post was about how oppressed groups go onto oppress other groups. Of course, everyone is entitled to his/her opinion...but I really can't see the evidence that she was playing a "pseudo-intellectual shell game." http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/rolleyes.gif |
Lastpoet,
No, I did not feel that you were solely addressing me whith you last post. I was not the only person that made a direct comment to you. Howerver I felt like you didn't understand that we all had answered your question in the beginning and just in case "all" was inappropriate I added at least in my posts. As for addressing the "other" examples you've provided, those examples were not part of the original post. Nowhere in your original post did you speak of things like "wetback", "spic", "jap", "jew 'em down", "sand nigger" etc.](please go back and review). As for this thread becoming a shouting match and people "attacking" anothers opinion, I think that is far from what is happening. Everyone has come respectfully with their responses. By no means was anyone trying to make their opinion more important than the next mans in an attempt to "shut another down". Maybe, in your opinion, a disscussion on the "morality" of homosexuality made you uncomfortable, but for others the thread was stimulating and enlightening. If you really want to stop homophobia, lets contiune this discussion. Maybe you could change someones heart on the matter. Ending the discussion because you don't like the direction it's going only perpetuates the problem. I feel that if you want to adress homophobia, be prepared for the responses you will get. Know that inevitably we will all agree to dissagree. Respectfully, Serenity_24 |
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