Cardinal Says U.S. Treated Saddam 'Like a Cow'
 

VATICAN CITY (Reuters) - A top Vatican official said Tuesday he felt pity and compassion for Saddam Hussein and criticized the U.S. military for showing video footage of him being treated "like a cow."

Cardinal Renato Martino, head of the Vatican's Justice and Peace department and a former papal envoy to the United Nations, told a news conference it would be "illusory" to think the arrest of the former Iraqi president would heal all the damage caused by a war which the Holy See opposed.

"I felt pity to see this man destroyed, (the military) looking at his teeth as if he were a cow. They could have spared us these pictures," he said.

"Seeing him like this, a man in his tragedy, despite all the heavy blame he bears, I had a sense of compassion for him," he said in answer to questions about Saddam's arrest.

Martino was referring to the videotape released by the U.S. military which showed a grubby, bearded and disheveled Saddam receiving a medical examination by a military doctor after his capture in an underground hole Saturday.

Martino was one of the Vatican officials most strongly opposed to the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq.

"It's true that we should be happy that this (arrest) has come about because it is the watershed that was necessary... we hope that this will not have worse and other serious consequences," Martino said.

"But it is not the total solution to the problems of the Middle East," he said.

Martino said the Vatican hoped the arrest of Saddam "can contribute to promoting peace and the democratization of Iraq."

He added: "But is seems to me to be illusory to hope that this will repair the dramas and the damage of the defeat for humanity that a war always brings about."

The Vatican did not consider the war in Iraq "a just war" because it was not backed by the United Nations and because the Vatican believed more negotiations were necessary to avoid it.

Martino said the Vatican wanted an "appropriate institution" to put Saddam on trial but he did not elaborate.

U.S. forces were keeping the ousted 66-year-old dictator at a secret location for interrogation before he is put on trial in the months ahead. He could face the death penalty.

The news conference was called for Martino to present the World Day of Peace message, in which Pope John Paul took a swipe at the United States for invading Iraq without the backing of the United Nations.


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uh, wtf? I see Saddam getting MEDICAL treatment. How is that being treated like a COW?? :rolleyes:

Maybe he didn't think it should be televised and they should have shown him after the check up. Who knows.

I have to admit that I got really tired of seeing that same videotape over and over again. Obviously, it was the only tape the Army supplied early on.

As for treating him like a cow, that's a Mooooot point.

I thought he was treated more like a monkey. They were picking at his hair like monkeys pick and eat bugs off each other. haha

Lol thats what I was thinking.

Okay, can I say that when I first saw it, I thought it was a documentary on the homeless population in NYC? He looked like an old bum!

I didn't see anything wrong with the footage. I did, however, see the footage of the meeting where he forced his political opponents to admit to treason, and they were taken outside and shot. Very eery.

What would the Vatican City know about cows? Seriously - the military was giving him a medical examination and checking for lice...now if that describes how cows are treated then we're all treated like cows :rolleyes:

<sigh>

sometimes the Vatican makes it damn hard to be Catholic.

Although, i will agree with their stance that he should not be executed. I say we make the bastard live in a 4' x 4' box for the rest of his days, endlessely piping in the Barney "I Love You" song and anything BlueGrass till he cracks and spills all his secrets.

Kitso
KS 361

I think that the tape shows a different side. Not that the military was hurting them but treating him fairly as the Genvia Conv. says. Part of that is a medical exam, its not like they showed him (Saddam Hussien) getting his prostate checked.


I don't know, maybe in Europe there is soemthing unnataural about taking care of ones teeth.

Does the papacy have anything better to do? I mean, there is dieing children in Africa. What about HIV, no we have to hear about polotics.


Sometime I get so irratated from my own religion.


Christia

I think that the Vatican should show more compassion for the victims of sexual predators who are priests, than that which they have for genocidal tyrants.

Well I guess I am alone here in saying that I was glad this article was printed. When I kept seeing that same footage over and over I felt a sense of pity for him. I just don't think it was necessary to show that same damn video over and over, it's like kicking someone when they're down. In my opinion that doesn't make us as a country look very good either, but HEY we're all entitled to our opinion. I am told frequently that I care TOO much about people, so maybe this is why I feel like this. Either way, don't flame me guys, please. :D

If Saddam Hussein was as compassionate as you are, over 1 million people, who are now dead, would be alive, and it is those people, and not Saddam, who are worthy of your compassion.

You guys, the media had only that footage to show. It's like September 11th...for a few days afterwards it was the same footage over and over (though this is different). It's history-making news and any smart television station is going to replay that over and over to keep up with the rest of them.

Ditto Kiki.

I think the media is showing this clip over and over to dehumanize the guy and make us view him as an animal. But I think that in some cases it's actually going to backfire and make some people feel sorry for him.

The thing many (most?) people don't realize about Catholic leadership is that forgiveness, reconciliation, and loving one's enemy (You know, that little thing Jesus said specifically in the Bible?) is first and foremost in their policy, as well as never giving up hope that even the worst sinner can someday repent if given the chance. Revenge has no place in this thinking. Most people on this board (forget it--most PEOPLE, period) don't get that.

This is a stumbling block for me--I'm into retaliation esp for people like SH and beating the repentance out of them. So I've got a ways to go on this line of thought.

Adrienne

The media is showing this clip over and over to sell ad space.

THANK YOU! Doesn't anyone read posts in here?

I don't believe this for a second.

They have plenty of other footage. I've seen it on a couple of stations. They've got footage of about three million different "experts" speculating on what this means. They've got footage of half the members of the Bush admin speculating on what this means. They've got footage of Saddam & friends beating the isht out of people (which, despite its shock value, might be a better choice if they want to dehumanize Saddam given the reactions that Kiki and many other people I know have had to this footage).

Seeing Saddam get checked over for lice is NOT history in the making, and it is nowhere on par with the footage of the towers going down over and over again.

None of that will sell as much ad space as the fresh footage of Saddam.
Money talks, and bullhsit walks.

Let me add the professional broadcasters opinion. In fact, I said it very early in the thread.

The "examination" footage is undoubtedly the first tape the Army released. Many would argue that it is a not so veiled insult to see this brutal dictator being "inspected" by his captors.

When that had been used to death, the Army probably released the night scope footage of the actual raid. The cynic in me finds it easy to believe that this was a purposful thing on behalf of our side. Subtle, but effective I think.

As for "selling" ad time, that's wishful thinking. Commercials aren't added on the spur of the moment. Those shows are formatted for a certain number of spots per hour. The footage is really of more promotional value than sales. We're just not efficient enough to get commercials ordered, delivered, dubbed (copied), logged and aired that quickly. Unfortunately.

Maybe some of the people in the Holy See grew up on farms? I know several priests who have.

Eta: I just went to check this fact, and ALL Catholic priests have to receive graduate degrees. Since the majority of the Vatican (referring to the institution, not the country) is consisted of PRIESTS, I have a feeling that in their minimum of eight years of education, they figured out a little something about cows.

What she said. In essence, all Catholic policy is founded off of this principle. The way I look at it: If we dehumanize him, we are no better than he is.

Oh I'm sorry - the first video footage we have of an INSANE dictator that we haven't seen in like 8 months....that's not history in the making (nor is the fact that our army found him). Sorry but I disagree.

And as someone who has a degree in journalism with a sequence in public relations...it's MEDIA baby. They do anything to get ratings up. Plus the footage of us capturing Saddam is good publicity for our country, our cause, our army and Bush.

By the way, I'm not saying that this is a bad strategy by the Army. If fact, it's pretty effective. Government use of the media is a highly practiced art -- and the military is/are masters at it.

My real problem with this technique is that when you consider all of the 24 hour news services, when they are only fed two or three shots (like the physical exam sequence), you see them used over and over until nauseus, because CNN/FOX/MSNBC, etc. feel they must have video -- as opposed to "talking heads."

The only rationale for this is that most viewers only watch for a few minutes at a time.

Either that or Republicans/Democrats, Liberals/Conservatives, Men/Women (pick you own -- I ain't goin' there) have real short attention spans.

ETA that Hootie's post above was added while I was typing mine, I guess. I would also add that even the "examination" footage is more compelling than "expert" talking heads, etc.

We're worried about dehumanizing him? I have a difficult time calling someone who's done what he's done "human". He's an evil man and all I have to say is karma is a biotch.

I'll agree with Kitso, sometimes the Vatican says things that make it hard to be a Catholic. But I guess it's their duty to stand up and bitch about the principle of things while everyone else exists in reality.

As far as the comments about pedophilia.. not that it makes it okay, but I know for a fact that the Catholic church is not the only church that has covered this stuff up. There was a LDS bishop that did this in my area. When the family accused him, they were excommunicated and then refused to press charges. I guess they just have better damage control. It has nothing to do with this thread. Take your Catholic-hating comments somewhere else.

Exactly!

As a Catholic, I understand the point that the Cardinal was making as well as adduncan, Geeky Penguin, and FAB*SpiceySpice.

As a flawed human being, I believe that forgiveness and reconcilliation occur after the perpetrator expresses remorse and attempts to compensate for the damage done. I doubt that SH will ever do that.

I watched Saddam Hussein Biography the other night, and it really clarified what a cruel, vicious, evil dictator this man was when he was in power. It shows the tape that Munchkin referred to in her post. If you get a chance to watch it, I strongly recommend it.

Neither I nor Saddam are Catholic - neither of us have the Vatican to answer to so neither of us will follow Catholic standards.

-Rudey
--Leaves the office at 12:10AM; Hot dog!

Delt Alum-When that had been used to death, the Army probably released the night scope footage of the actual raid. The cynic in me finds it easy to believe that this was a purposful thing on behalf of our side. Subtle, but effective I think

Soooooo agree with these posts! (and others too)

On O'Reilly last night, Bill was debating a Jesuit priest and the
Catholic stance on forgiveness was mentioned. Yet Bill countered with Jesus' reaction to the blaggarts in the temple-a reaction, by Jesus, of anger and intolerance to their sacrilege. The priest really didn't have too much of a response, mostly, that it wasn't the same thing. The Church's stance in addition to what GeekyPenguin said, is that their view relates to the WORLD, not a position one would take from the US or Iraq political perspective.

Is it OK now for people to quote any religious leader? If, on one hand, certain groups want to keep religion out of politics, why are they seizing this opportunity to AGAIN belittle our efforts through the words of a VATICAN principal? (Remember the screams of separation of church and state.) I for one don't give a care WHAT spokesmen for the Pope have to say on this. And if ANYONE starts their anti(whatever) speech with "THE VATICAN SAID...", then throw away you birth control pills, vote to abolish abortion, never get a divorce and go to church every Sunday and Holy Day of Obligation! These too are stances the Vatican takes! (Forgive me if I'm cranky-had a late/late night and very early alarm!)

You know, considering DeltAlum has a lifetime of experience in the field, I think I'm going to go with what he said. As I've learned in the past year or two, a degree means very little unless you can back up what you've done with experience. You can read a lot of books about something, but until you've been in the trenches at least a few months, you don't have a leg to stand on.

They do have other footage, and it's not just the American press. I watched the BBC Monday, and they had a mixture of footage--but the primary one was the examination. I agree that this is an important milestone in the American campaign, but more footage would have befitted those of us with better attention spans. :p

Munchkin03-I agree that this is an important milestone in the American campaign, but more footage would have befitted those of us with better attention spans.

I've noticed we are starting to see a lot more of the "hole" he was in. I find that pretty interesting.

I do think part of the choice was to show the world he was nothing more than...human, for lack of a better word. Those pictures of him being examined are pretty effective tools in breaking the myth that he was indestructible. I think it was important for the people of Iraq to see him totally powerless. They needed to see he was no longer a threat.
edited-Hubby just read that when the soldiers captured him they said, "Regards from President Bush!" LOL!!!

I think the BBC's coverage did an effective job in portraying that---just with more footage.

Just because the Vatican may say stuff I don't agree with always doesn't shake my faith as a catholic. Unfourtunly they are just as political as anyone else.

Whenever a group of human beings gets together for any purpose, there WILL be politics. It's just the way human beings are wired. Not a good or bad thing, IMHO, just a human thing.

(Co-sign re: faith and official statements)

Adrienne

You know, sometimes it seems like more than a lifetime.

Here's another way of thinking about this.

The American media can be very strong and have enormous influence -- but it is not all powerful. It is also not totally cynical, but that's another story and another debate.

One of the results of the "MTV Generation" is that the TV audiences viewing attention span really has gotten shorter. I can't cite them, but there have been "studies" on this. If there are not lots of quickly edited pictures of an event, it quickly looses it "visual interest." That's my term -- not from a book. Because of that, news organizations have a huge appitite for ANY kind of on location incident footage.

So, how do they get it? Two ways. Either they have a crew onsite -- or hope someone else (Like the Army?) shoots the event and is willing to share the footage.

The Army/Administration has a story to tell. And it has it's own viewpoint.

That being the case, who is the real "gatekeeper" -- something the media is often accused of being -- on that story. Why, it's the guy who has the videotape in hand, and can parcel it out however he/she/it wants to.

That is a huge propaganda tool!

Satellite technology has given television remarkable flexibility and speed. However, if there are no pictures of the event, that flexibility is worthless. During this war, the military -- reacting to stinging criticism of it's "management" of coverage of the first Mid-East War -- had the "imbedded reporter" system. On the face of it, a good way for the media to get close to the action. The problem is that an "imbedded" crew can only go where the unit to which it is imbedded goes. Another reasonably easy way to "control" the flow of news. Only show them what you want them to see.

Is it cynical for the military to control that news flow? If you believe in an absolute free press (remember this, all of you who like to claim the rights of the First Amendment), yes it is terribly cynical. Is it wrong? Sometimes. Is it necessary? Sometimes. Are there reporters who would abuse the powers, even to the point of endangering an operation. Yes. Is that true of the vast majority of reporters. No. Most are highly disciplined professionals.

What has likely happened here, as I've said before, is that the Army, in concert with other government agencies and the administration, has "rationed" out it's footage (the only game in town in this case) to achieve it's own best objective/propaganda/agenda.

Is that wrong in this case? You can decide that for yourself. I have my own opinion, but it really isn't relavent here, and is, after all, only another opinion. Maybe a little more informed due to my background, but still just an opinion.

Beyond the ethics of all of that, my biggest personal problem in this case was having to look into that idiot's mouth 30-40 times in the first hour of coverage.

See, I was around before MTV.

I thought that this was classic.

"I am Saddam Hussein. I am the president of Iraq. I want to negotiate."

The soldiers replied: "President Bush sends his regards."

Where was the Vatican when people were massacred for 35 years in Iraq? Did this Cardinal say anything when Kurdish lungs melted in their bodies? Who shed tears when Shiites were mutilated? Were the children of Iran not worthy of cattle comparisons when they walked across minefields? What about the bodies hanging from light posts in Kuwait? How about the scuds that rained on cities across Israel - when fathers put their babies in plastic cages so they could survive chemical attacks?

The Vatican isn't simply a religious body - it is highly political. And I don't even want to hear about what is shameful from the Vatican because of their past and current sins.

-Rudey
--Europe got shut out of world influence and the Vatican is getting shut out of European influence.

Hey Rudey....

Any idiot can look it up and see that, wow, the Vatican did protest these things too..... shocking huh?

Before you spout off, at least attempt to back-check you "facts".

So very true...

The Vatican has politcal movements within it, much like any country. You have conservative and liberal orders and movements within the Vatican itself.....

For example during WW2 you had orders the lay low, others tacitly supported the Nazis, while others actively opposed the Nazis. Each did this because of their own political views, and their own idea of what was best for the Church.

Another example is my fraternity's neighbor, "Opus Dei"(?), they are a very conservative movement that wants people to attend church everyday, advocates the seperation of men and women until marriage (in school), wants a return to the Latin mass, and I know the residence censors all external input (newspapers, internet, magazines, etc.). Now they have the support of some of the cardinals vieing for Pope, but other orders (Dominicans for one) try to have as little as possible to do with them because of their conflicting viewpoints and politcal leanings (think Republicans and Democrats).

It is important to understand that the Vatican is not only a religious, but a politcal, organization. As such it will make mistakes, and commit shameful acts just as any other political entity would....

Hey idiot show me these protests. And if you want we can start talking about the sins of the Vatican now and how they refuse to open up certain records to be investigated.

Hey Cooper how does it feel to be a loser with no prospects in life? Hey maybe when you're like 45 you think you will graduate from college?

Edited to Add (for anyone other than the "idiot" above):
I am pointing out that the Vatican is not just religious but also political and, often, its political views are not balanced.

-Rudey
--Must feel good huh? jagoff.