Do you think this is odd??
 

There's a badge for sale on Ebay that has no markings on the back. Unless this is an original, new piece from Burr, Patterson & Auld that somehow got into other hands, how can it not have any markings on the back??

Currently our badges are available to order through the Burr, Patterson & Auld website. We are one of very few that have our actual badges available to order online, most others have badges shown and then the order area blocked out with the words: "Must be ordered through Headquarters". I am kind of uncomfortable with having ours available for online ordering. I'm guessing that the orders must go through HQ and orders would be matched up with members, so the likelihood of someone who isn't a Kappa getting a badge would be minimal, but there's always a chance, you know?? There are enough badges floating around in the hands of non-members.

Does anyone have good knowledge of how the Keepers of the Key group works? Often, I'll see bids on badges that look like they're from multiple Kappas and what I'm guessing is one is a member of the Keepers group and others are well-meaning Kappas who aren't aware of the Keepers. Which is unfortunate because they keep driving the bids up on each other! (But I guess there's no good way to know for sure, anyone can create an ID on ebay, it could be a ghost bidder)

Whew. Lots of questions. Any feelings/ideas/information on these?

I saw it, too. Could it be a recognition pin?

I didn't think our badges could be ordered any way other than through the Fraternity. Maybe you can place an order and BPA verifies your membership through HQ.

Kappanole is a Keeper. She could answer any of your questions. I met her at PM this year and saw some of the beautiful badges she had rescued.

I know for sure that Burr Patterson and Auld verifies membership before completing a badge order. :)

Maybe the seller could a. be an employee of Burr Patt, who stole a badge without engraving, or b. melted the markings on th back off?

As a charter member of Keepers of the Key, this is a question that comes up A LOT!

We are finding more and more keys that have had the markings polished off the back--partly due to our efforts in tracking down original owners, and getting their badges returned to them.

I don't want to insinuate anything about this specific key that up for auction at present, but very often we find that when info is polished off of the back of the key, it's because the key was stolen at some point, and someone has "erased" the evidence of its original owner.

Does that make sense?

And to alleviate anyone's fears about BP&A's security, that is another issue that the Keepers have been working on with the Fraternity. Our hard work has paid off, and EACH AND EVERY badge order--online, over the phone, or whatnot--is verfied and double-checked with the Fraternity. There are new, stricter rules in place that I don't want to disclose here, for fear of "teaching" some of the unscrupulous eBayers (read: some of the less ethical collectors and sellers) from figuring out of to manipulate those rules!!!

[edited for clarity and accuracy]

I was looking around on the Kappa website the other day and there were instructions on how to protect your key after you pass away. ... Just something to consider so that our Key seekers don't have a much work in the future! :D

L&L,
Christen

Christen, I'm glad you noticed that new addition to the KKG Website....yet another effort by us Keepers to make sure that people know to make arrangements for their badge after they are gone.

That was one of last year's big pushes...we just felt that we'd be cutting down on our work, if we could get the word out to tell people not to let their badges end up on eBay, at a pawn shop, or sold in an estate sale!!!

Thank you all so much for your reassurance and thoughts! I definitely feel a little better now about the ordering process of our badge. When I was initiated, our registrar gathered all our orders and did it for us, made it very easy!!

It's disheartening that people would go so far as to polishing off the markings on the back. I guess some people will do anything!

If it's only 1/2" long, then its a recognition pin, and those don't have markings... (or at least mine didn't!).

And I'm super glad to hear that BP&A checks our membership... I assumed they did when I ordered mine on-line, though there was never any evidence of it. I like that... quiet, discrete and effective!!

Just a head's up, ladies... I think you'll start to see markings removed from keys more and more often. I've talked to several dealers who say they were harassed by KotK and as a result they will now be removing all markings before selling the piece. So they're not always doing it to cover up evidence of theft.

Btw, I thought this: "unscrupulous eBayers (read: collectors)"
...was a pretty lousy thing to say, especially considering who the source was for at least one of those "beautiful badges she had rescued" (read: collector).

wptw

wptw, FYI Kappanole and imsohappythatiama are 2 different Keepers.

I have no sympathy for anyone who sells ANY fraternity badges to the highest bidder. It seems to me that if you know how to return a found item to someone and don't, that's stealing. "Finders keepers, losers weepers" is only for the unscrupulous. IMO, what these dealers is doing is pretty lousy.

wptw:

I apologize if my post implies that all collectors are "unscrupulous"--it's true that they certainly aren't. There are a number of Greek Badge Collectors who are good and decent, and you're right--from whom I have likely bought badges in the past. I will edit my original post as such.

The Keepers of the Key, however, in no way "harass" people. I realize that is the popular opinion, promoted mostly by an those few "unscrupulous" members of the collecting community who are annoyed that Kappa (and other organizations, now) are organizing to keep our heritage in the hands of sisters-only. I won't begin to list here many of the tactics that they have tried in the past, and continue to try (nor will I list their names)...but let's just say that these tactics ALL fall into the unscrupulous category.

[Edited to add]: I find it distinctly questionable that a seller (collector or otherwise) would go to the trouble of removing the name and date engravings from the back of a key just for "spite"--particularly because this greatly lessens the value of a key to the non-Kappa collector (and there is no guarantee that we will bid on every badge...particularly from sellers of whom we are suspicious). Again, while it is possible that this happens, common sense (and profit motive) will tell you that it is likely that most of the time there are other reasons afoot.

MSKKG, yes I know they are different people. I was quoting your reference to Kappanole to illustrate a point with imsohappythatiama. Sorry for the confusion.

And thanks for the edit, ISHTIAA. It's important that people understand the difference between dealers and collectors. Even if one disagrees with the selling of badges, "unscrupulous" implies something much more sinister I think.

Understand, I wasn't necessarily saying I personally thought KotK was harassing dealers. I was just passing on what the dealers are saying. It's no surprise that the 2 sides would characterize the conversations differently.

As you know, I've talked on and off with several Keepers for a while now, so I've gotten to hear a lot of the gory details - from both sides of the issue. I think the feedback from dealers and collectors is useful for your work - it's important to know what kind of ripple effects are generated by your actions. Some good. Some bad.

Best of luck,
wptw

To respond to your edit... I didn't say they are removing the engraving for spite. They're doing it because they think it exposes them to less "harassment". You'll notice a lot of dealers on ebay no longer show the back of badges (not just KKG), or give out the member info. Removing the engraving is just a more extreme form of this phenomenon.

It's really the dealers who are annoyed with KotK, not so much the collectors. I mean, the collectors aren't happy that someone infiltrated their event by questionable (some might even say unscrupulous) means, but I don't think there's a big grudge or a spite thing there.

KotK is doing what it needs to do to rescue the badges, even if it means a white lie here and there. I have no problem with that. And the dealers are taking steps to protect their businesses. I have no problem with that either. The end justifies the means. I suppose "unscrupulous" is in the eye of the beholder.

wptw

Edited to add: The existence of Tyoregon complicates this whole discussion. I know his methods have indeed been spiteful and malicious (he admits as much) in response to what he perceives as the same from KotK. He's not a dealer. And although he obviously collects, none of the collectors really consider him a part of the collector community. He's kind of in a category all by himself. I would just encourage you not to lump him in with the collector community, because he's pretty atypical.

As all things in life are, I suppose. Isn't that--difference in perception--the root of all misunderstanding and conflict? ;)

And you're right, it is good that we know what the playing field is--i.e., what people are saying about the efforts of the Keepers--both good and bad. You're also right that over the years we have struggled with what is the "right" way to go about our Keeping cause. As we often say in Kappa, "we strive to do our little, perfectly," but we know that sometimes we're less than perfect, like everyone.

As a result, some find our cause (and other causes like ours--which is why, as you pointed out, Kappa badges aren't the only ones for which some dealers/collectors obscure or choose not to disclose the identifying engravings) unpopular, perhaps even distasteful--hey, some probably find it unscrupulous.

Ah the old rub--is it better to be popular, or to do what you feel is right? I like what Kant said (or wrote) so many years ago: "Seek not the favor of the multitude; it is seldom got by honest and lawful means. But seek the testimony of few; and number not voices, but weigh them."

We will keep on Keeping, trying to "do our little perfectly," whether we have the "favor of the multitude" or not. We certainly have the "testimony of a few voices," and in my perception, their weight (which is substantial), and our continued successes at rescuing Kappa badges is favor enough.

Well said.

wptw

Thank you both wptw and i'msohappythatiama for your viewpoints. It's too easy for me to forget that not everyone has the same reverence and respect for our badge as I do as a member, which makes it difficult for me to see so many badges for sale on eBay and other places. I understand the seller us just doing what he/she needs to do for their business, likewise I understand groups such as the Keepers and others from different GLOs are simply doing what they feel is right as a member of their GLO. The loyalties that tie members to their respective organizations are often very strong. Unfortunately, those loyalties also can lead to unpleasant situations, such as these, where parties on both sides feel they are in the "right" and the other is "wrong."

I guess the best we can do is educate each other and hope situations never get to the point where something really untoward happens.

If there is nothing to hide, then why remove the information from the back of any badge? When these markings are obviously initials and indicate ownership, then in reality what other reason could they have for removing this information if not to conceal the ownership?

I have never emailed anyone selling any of our badges, although I have been tempted on a few occasions. However, I think the way some ebay listings are now worded (e.g. "Don't email me about the ownership of this pin", etc.) it is obvious that whoever is selling the merchandise knows that it belongs to someone else and really doesn't care.

If they choose not to show the information, that is one thing. However, to remove it entirely is another matter.

I find the whole idea of badge selling offensive. For those sellers who know what the badges are, I find it very distasteful that they do not contact the organization to return the badge as opposed to profiting from it. Perhaps it would be helpful if Greek organizations made an offer to purchase or give rewards for lost or stolen badges. Maybe it would reduce the temptation to sell them if a person's conscience and sense of right and wrong is not enough.

I don't think giving rewards would work right now. I've joked (JOKED... not serious) ... that I could pay my dues by selling my badge on e-bay. I would never do it... but it brings up the point that keys on ebay sell for far more than it costs to buy them new. Why would a seller sell a badge to HQ for cost (afterall, this is all HQ would probably be willing to pay, well, with a little extra for age) when they can sell on e-bay for far more?

While collectors keep pushing up the cost there is no incentive not to sell on e-bay... which is unfortunate.

Oh, there’s clearly something to hide. I’m not denying they’re trying to conceal the membership info. I’m just saying it’s not necessarily because they know the badge is stolen, as some have suggested.

A favorite tactic of some rescue groups (and individuals) is to contact ebay and falsely report the badge stolen. Once ebay shuts down the auction, they contact the seller and offer to take it off his hands for a bargain price, sometimes spamming him mercilessly until he figures it’s less hassle to just sell them the badge at the cheap price. Or they email the seller pretending to be the original owner and giving him a sad story of how the badge was stolen. Removing the engraving solves this problem.

Of course, dealers are smarter now, and ebay no longer blindly ends auctions without proof. It’s generally agreed that a police report is required to get an auction shut down. But it’s tough for dealers when they get an email from someone claiming to be the original owner. How does the seller know whether it’s legit or a scam? If he refuses, he’s an insensitive jerk. If he agrees, he’s probably a sucker. Again, removing the engraving solves that problem.

There are a few “legit” reasons for a dealer to remove an engraving. I don’t feel like typing it all again, so I’ll refer you here…

http://forums.greekchat.com/gcforums...threadid=20816

Anyway, it’s not that they “know it belongs to someone else and don’t care”. They don’t agree that it belongs to you, so they’re telling you not to waste their time trying to argue it. And let’s face it: the law says unless it’s stolen, it’s theirs to sell. So you’re right, they don’t care. But that’s not because they’re mean people necessarily.

It’s hard to bring “right and wrong” into this discussion. Obviously you feel it’s wrong, but you’re probably in the minority.

Remember the days of Minister Hatchett, when a Greekchat member would post about their Christian beliefs and then get an unsolicited email or PM from Fred accusing them of not being a Christian and telling them they’re going to hell for worshipping false idols? Who’s right and who’s wrong in that scenario? Fred fervently believed he was right and that GLOs are ungodly, just as you fervently believe you’re right and that selling badges is immoral.

(not comparing you to Fred necessarily)

wptw

Come on, Kappaloo. You know you can’t pin all the price escalation on collectors. Three words: New. York. Times.

I agree with ISUKappa…

wptw

Geez, I go to my final and I miss the good discussion in the Kappa forum. You people have bad timing. :)

I'm really not sure how long groups could afford to do that, either. If you consider the number of badges that pop up on E-bay, that could get to be a substantial amount of money.

Even then, why should what would amount to a flat amount of money entice the dealer, anyways?

And I've joked about that, too. :)

Wptw, you described Tyoregon as atypical. How is he atypical, just out of curiosity?

Just a general question- I've heard it said that we don't "own" our badges; we merely have a lifetime lease on them from the Fraternity. If that really is true, might it not class any badges sold by anyone other than people authorized by the Fraternity (meaning nobody) as stolen property?

To what extent is the KotK recognized by Fraternity Headquarters? My general impression is that it is something of a greassroots movement, but I was thinking if the Fraternity were willing to do so, running an article in the Key might be a great way to educate members about KotK.

He's not greek, he doesn't associate with the "collector community", and he tends to thrive on the conflict with rescue groups where most collectors would just as soon avoid it.

True, but that's an organizational policy and not really enforceable outside the organization. If a buy a key at an estate sale, the law says I own it free and clear.

wptw

Makes sense. :) I had wondered if you might say just that.

Hi sherbertlemons--

Let me answer some of your questions! Sorry we timed our debate badly!!

I'll jump in here and say he's really on the radical end of the spectrum. wptw is right-on in his assessment.

It is true that our badge is considered Fraternity property, but the law simply doesn't recognize that--consider that possession is 9/10 of the law.

Keepers of the Key is (as of yet) unrecognized by the Fraternity in an official capacity. We have had articles run on us in The Key--and we have a great deal of support internally!;)

Hope this helps...if you have more questions, you shouldn't hesitate to ask.

I don't understand it either, but unfortunately, many people (especially those who are not members of GLOs) don't feel the same way. I don't even think it's an issue of their conscience, they simply don't see these badges in the same light as we do. Difference in perception.

I don't feel it's solely the collectors who are pushing up the cost, it's just the general knowledge that people want these badges and the sellers know (or think, anyway) that these people will pay almost anything to get them. Demand sets the price; demand from collectors but also the demand from members trying to get the badges back to their rightful owners or GLOs.

Sorry... I shouldn't have used the term "collectors" there... I should have used the term "buyers"