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acedawg00-02 12-09-2003 12:11 PM

Al Gore's Endorsement Speech....
 
Did anyone get a chance to watch Al Gore deliver his endorsement speech backing Howard Dean this morning? Overall, it was an okay impromptu presentation, but there were some parts of their oration that left my jaw hanging - LOL! Now, this took place in HARLEM....so, why did Dean feel the need to mention his "social resume" which included the following:

*His empathy for the Birmingham bombing (in which four young black girls were killed)
*His empathy for the loss of two great leaders, Robert Kennedy and Dr. King
*The fact that he was in his early 20's when the Civil Rights Movement was ending.

I think that Al Gore took the cake when he stepped to the mic and said, "well, the last time I was here, I remember playing basketball." LOL - now I'm not trying to incite anything...seriously. Because I'm still wating for the Democratic Candidates to stop the circus and put thier strongest person forward (and I won't even get into that). But I am just trying to raise the "average" level of awareness and promote critical thinking.

I think that Dean and Gore had good intentions, but are oblivious to the fact that they can appeal to African-American voters through a variety of subject matter - not just issues pertaining to race/stereotypes. I mean, look at the way products are marketed to different "test" groups!! McDonalds raps about burgers and fries. Chevrolet tries to appeal to us by bouncing cars on hydraulics. Sprite puts a hip-hop spin on how to quench your thirst! I MEAN, COME ON! If I want to buy a car, food or beverage...just give it to me IN PLAIN ENGLISH. I think that we are more than capable of understanding "mainstream" advertising. I will leave you with this: If Dean and Gore were in Rhode Island...they would not have been talking about Civil Rights or basketball. These comments and way of thinking are catergorized and type cast. Are we wearing blinders? When will we take note? Any thoughts.....?

Love_Spell_6 12-09-2003 12:38 PM

Yes I saw the speech....and I thought the same thing when I heard him say the last time he was there he was playing b-ball. But hey...its politics. Actually what they should realize is that no matter what they say...it seems African Americans will vote Democtrat to the tune of about 90% anyway...sad but true...so I don't think the basketball thing really made a difference...

As for all the other ways the media tries to appeal to black folk...its about the bottom dollar. They look at what sells in the black community and watch videos...and now they got a top seller. I mean Sprite the Remix was funny! This is a capitalist society...and if they can capitalize on these things...so be it.

The real question is when will black folks as a whole stop feeding into this BS.

acedawg00-02 12-09-2003 01:00 PM

Quote:

This is a capitalist society...and if they can capitalize on these things...so be it. :eek:




Hmmm......that really sounds kinda contradictory. I mean, I see some of your points....but.....

Love_Spell_6 12-09-2003 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by acedawg00-02
Hmmm......that really sounds kinda contradictory. I mean, I see some of your points....but.....
Explain bruh...what do you mean?

CrimsonTide4 12-09-2003 01:39 PM

Re: Al Gore's Endorsement Speech....
 
Quote:

Originally posted by acedawg00-02
Did anyone get a chance to watch Al Gore deliver his endorsement speech backing Howard Dean this morning? Overall, it was an okay impromptu presentation, but there were some parts of their oration that left my jaw hanging - LOL! Now, this took place in HARLEM....so, why did Dean feel the need to mention his "social resume" which included the following:

*The Birmingham bombing (in which four young black gilrs were killed)
*The loss of two great leaders, Robert Kennedy and Dr. King
*The fact that he was in his early 20's when the Civil Rights Movement was ending.

I think that Al Gore took the cake when he stepped to the mic and said, "well, the last time I was here, I remember playing basketball." LOL - now I'm not trying to incite anything...seriously. Because I'm still wating for the Democratic Candidates to stop the circus and put thier strongest person forward (and I won't even get into that). But I am just trying to raise the "average" level of awareness and promote critical thinking. I think that Dean and Gore had good intentions, but are oblivious to the fact that they can appeal to African-American voters through a variety of subject matter - not just issues pertaining to race/stereotypes. I mean, look at the way products are marketed to different "test" groups!! McDonalds raps about burgers and fries. Chevrolet tries to appeal to us by bouncing cars on hydraulics. Sprite puts a hip-hop spin on how to quench your thirst! I MEAN, COME ON! If I want to buy a car, food or beverage...just give it to me IN PLAIN ENGLISH. I think that we are more than capable of understanding "mainstream" advertising. I will leave you with this: If Dean and Gore were in Rhode Island...they would not have been talking about Civil Rights or basketball. These comments and way of thinking is catergorized and type cast. Are we wearing blinders? When will we take note? Any thoughts.....?


Interesting what they did/said.

[sidebar]I watched Malibu's Most Wanted this weekend. (don't beat me) At any rate, the thugs in the movie encounter the gubernatorial candidate and as he is talking to them, they say something like just because we are in the hood, does not mean we are not informed. I was like hmmm true.[/sidebar]

At any rate, the Democrats need to realize that Black folks are not just going to give them the vote, although I can say that right now with Bush being the Republican candidate, I will be voting for the Democrat candidate for President in 2004.

acedawg00-02 12-09-2003 01:47 PM

Sis,

A message board is one of the most challenging mediums to express yourself through b/c it's hard to gauge a person's tone or overall feeling on an issue. I'm just trying to spark conversation...and you know that we can hang out and sip martinis any day :D .

Now, your points about Blacks voting 90% Democratic, and advertising being about the "bottom dollar" are well taken. But I do not agree with the idea of an entity taking advantage of someone's warped sense of self-perception. You said that, "this is a capitalist society...and if they can capitalize on these things...so be it." From that, it seemed as if your position was one of acceptance - I'm not sure. Personally, be it capitalist or not....it's improper and inexcusable. And you're right...we need to stop feeding into the BS. Nothing will change until we stop perpetuating these stereotypes...

TonyB06 12-09-2003 01:49 PM

Re: Al Gore's Endorsement Speech....
 
Quote:

Originally posted by acedawg00-02
[B]Did anyone get a chance to watch Al Gore deliver his endorsement speech backing Howard Dean this morning? Overall, it was an okay impromptu presentation, but there were some parts of their oration that left my jaw hanging - LOL! .....
I didn't here Gore's speech, but, in a way, I've heard it all before...

Interesting comments, Acedawg and well taken, but I think to marketers and political spinmeisters, your thinking (and I think that of several GCers) is very much a "minority" position. Yes, we're diverse and can be reached on a variety of levels beyond "civil rights and race, (CRR)" but in Harlem and for the millions more of us watching the evening news, CRR are what they're figuring will catch our attention most effectively.

I agree it's condesending, but they do it because it works.

Love_Spell_6, your point on our 90 percent voting pattern is interesting too, but I have a different take. Clearly, we don't play to our strength voting like this but isn't it up to others (in this case the R Party) to put more of our vote in play.

My best friends' dad had an interesting theory. He said every other interest group courted by the Repub. Party, Right-to-Life, NRA, etc, to some extent has their issues addressed -- some platform concession, etc.. He asked why is it Repubs. expect "us" to come for free? I think it's an interesting question becuase I don't think we're as monolithic in our thought as most.

He said if R's want our votes, they needed to do more than complain about our 90% and make programmatic suggestions that are seen, in the main, as non-hostile to Black interests.

...and welcome to GC, Acedawg.

acedawg00-02 12-09-2003 02:01 PM

Quote:

...and welcome to GC, Acedawg.


LOL...hey, thanks...but I've been here since last August. I just haven't had much opportunity to hang out and post. BUT NOW THAT ALL EIGHT OF MA KIDZ ARE OFF TO COLLEGE!! LOL....just kidding :D. But seriously, I'm enjoying this...I love it when we can get together and have insightful "vebal relations"....LOL.

TonyB06 12-09-2003 02:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by acedawg00-02


LOL...hey, thanks...but I've been here since last August. I just haven't had much opportunity to hang out and post. BUT NOW THAT ALL EIGHT OF MA KIDZ ARE OFF TO COLLEGE!! LOL....just kidding :D. But seriously, I'm enjoying this...I love it when we can get together and have insightful "vebal relations"....LOL.

...Then my bad on the improper salutation; I'll just leave it at holla back :D. It's always good to intelligently debate/discuss the issues of the day.

Love_Spell_6 12-09-2003 03:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by acedawg00-02
Sis,

A message board is one of the most challenging mediums to express yourself through b/c it's hard to gauge a person's tone or overall feeling on an issue. I'm just trying to spark conversation...and you know that we can hang out and sip martinis any day :D .

Now, your points about Blacks voting 90% Democratic, and advertising being about the "bottom dollar" are well taken. But I do not agree with the idea of an entity taking advantage of someone's warped sense of self-perception. You said that, "this is a capitalist society...and if they can capitalize on these things...so be it." From that, it seemed as if your position was one of acceptance - I'm not sure. Personally, be it capitalist or not....it's improper and inexusable. And you're right...we need to stop feeding into the BS. Nothing will change until we stop perpetuating these stereptypes...

Well I think we "let" people take advantage of us. Why complain about what someone else is doing to make $$? I think you hit it on the head with our "warped sense of perception." That makes me more upset than how corporate America makes its money. African Americans need to stop looking at what everyone else is doing to exploit us...and make the necessary changes in our community to stop allowing the exploitation. I wonder where corporate marketing departments would come up with the ideas to put men in their commercials with gold teeth, hydraulics on their cars etc... could it be to take a look at our urban youth? I put the fault squarely on the blame of our parenting (or lack thereof) and our community's acceptance of any and everything secular.

To TonyBO6
One question...tell me what the democratic party has done for us lately...besides try to woo us with programs disguised to benefit us that only really hurt us??

You look at it saying that the Republican party hasn't done enough to bring us to their party....my take on it is that the Democratic party hasn't done enough to keep us!

PS - I'm gonna take u up on those Martini's ace dawg! ;)

TonyB06 12-09-2003 05:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Love_Spell_6
To TonyBO6
One question...tell me what the democratic party has done for us lately...besides try to woo us with programs disguised to benefit us that only really hurt us??

You look at it saying that the Republican party hasn't done enough to bring us to their party....my take on it is that the Democratic party hasn't done enough to keep us!

...the answer here, like most others is subjective and somewhat historial. A survey of AA's over age 50 may point to FDR's New Deal Policy, JFK's perceived overtures to the civil rights movement, or LBJ's civil rights initiatives. Leaving aside an analysis of the long-term effectiveness of any of these initiatives, in the main, Black people at least feel that Ds have tried.

But it's not my intent to be partisan. Believe me, I can argue either side of this debate. Even if you feel D's, particularly in the last 20 years, haven't done much but take us for granted why then have not R's capatilized on this? You cannot tell me that we're not as politically sophisticated as anyone else and able to discern whose acting in our best interests?

Long story short, (if it's not too late for that), Rs don't have the historical trust of AAs in the country over the last 60 or so years. To get that, they are going to have to make (or some would say make more) demonstrable efforts that are seen as sincere by the mass of the AA community. Some AAs feel they're doing this already, others feel they're not.

acedawg00-02 12-09-2003 06:50 PM

Quote:

You cannot tell me that we're not as politically sophisticated as anyone else and able to discern whose acting in our best interests?


Hmmm....are we objectively....hell, just basically examing candidate's platforms and ideas? During the Civil Rights Movement (sit-ins, boycotts), Vietnam War (protesting), we WERE more aware and had an undying fervor for change! In contrast, over the past 20-25 years, we've seen a cascading effect in our zeal for political issues. We have acheieved great leaps, but quite a few of us have become somewhat complacent...and we've lost sight of being self-driven. Nothing will just magically appear...regardless of party affiliation.

If Howard Dean...or any candidate gets elected, will the city of Harlem....or any other "Harlem" in the United States be an item of interest?

I'm still looking for Trent Lott to come back and host a segment on BET....has anyone heard anything? LMAO......

DoggyStyle82 12-10-2003 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Love_Spell_6
.it seems African Americans will vote Democtrat to the tune of about 90% anyway...sad but true...so I don't think the basketball thing really made a difference...

As for all the other ways the media tries to appeal to black folk...its about the bottom dollar. They look at what sells in the black community and watch videos...and now they got a top seller. I mean Sprite the Remix was funny! This is a capitalist society...and if they can capitalize on these things...so be it.

The real question is when will black folks as a whole stop feeding into this BS.

Great discussion.

Your point about AAs voting %90 Dem is true, but the real figure is that only %20 of eligible AAs even bother to vote. Compare that to the other interest groups, like the NRA, RTL, and Conservative Christians, Gays, etc. Republicans can write us off and they have proven it by winning Demoratic strongholds, even places where Dems are the majority registered. That is because Black folks only get energized when the cops kill someone, a famous AA is villified in the media or courts (OJ, R. Kelly, Kobe) or a non-AA uses the N word. Bottom-line is that we are looked at by politicians and advertisers as children, either to be ignored, mollified, pacified, or lead astray. We need to grow up and the first stage of that is to be responsible for our own behavior and education.

ladygreek 12-10-2003 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DoggyStyle82
Great discussion.

Your point about AAs voting %90 Dem is true, but the real figure is that only %20 of eligible AAs even bother to vote. Compare that to the other interest groups, like the NRA, RTL, and Conservative Christians, Gays, etc. Republicans can write us off and they have proven it by winning Demoratic strongholds, even places where Dems are the majority registered. That is because Black folks only get energized when the cops kill someone, a famous AA is villified in the media or courts (OJ, R. Kelly, Kobe) or a non-AA uses the N word. Bottom-line is that we are looked at by politicians and advertisers as children, either to be ignored, mollified, pacified, or lead astray. We need to grow up and the first stage of that is to be responsible for our own behavior and education.

Hear! Hear!

Love_Spell_6 12-10-2003 10:03 PM

Oh yea,

as far as Gore endorsing Dean, I lost respect for him. I remember when Lieberman specifically said that he would not run for the Dem nomination if Gore ran. I saw Lieberman on Fox and Friends, and he said he found out initially about Gore's decision from the media.

I know its politics but dang! have a heart Gore! And THIS is the man that people claim is the real president of the US :rolleyes:

DoggyStyle82 12-11-2003 12:14 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Love_Spell_6
Oh yea,

as far as Gore endorsing Dean, I lost respect for him. I remember when Lieberman specifically said that he would not run for the Dem nomination if Gore ran. I saw Lieberman on Fox and Friends, and he said he found out initially about Gore's decision from the media.

I know its politics but dang! have a heart Gore! And THIS is the man that people claim is the real president of the US :rolleyes:

I noticed your tag line with the Jesse Peterson quote. It reminds me of Booker T Washington and his battles with WEB DuBois. Neither was right nor wrong, but it is the right combination of the two that lead to improvement of AA society.

Peterson loses a little credibility with me for attacking other Black leaders on conservative white programs (like when he ripped Jesse Jackson on Bill O'Reilly's show). I'll just say that there is a "right way" to be right. In a family, when you argue with your brother or sister, it should not empower the enemies of your family.

Are you familiar with Project 21?

ladygreek 12-11-2003 12:54 AM

Good thread
 
I have two disparate points to make.

First the Gore thing. I don't know what has gone on behind the scenes between Gore and Lieberman since the last election, so I am not going to try and guess the reason for the endorsment and how it was made.

Second, I heard a disheartening stat today. Of AAs in Minnesota who are of voting age, 20 percent are ineligible because of felony convictions. The percentage for non-AAs is only 1 percent. :eek: Add that to the stat already stated that only 20 percent of the eligible AA voters vote, that is a huge issue.

acedawg00-02 12-11-2003 11:22 AM

That's roo dog....
 
Quote:

In a family, when you argue with your brother or sister, it should not empower the enemies of your family.

Bruh,

DAYUM......that was some good sh**!! Man, this is why I love older being around older bruhz. You catch some hell...but at the same time, you learn things that will help you along in life.

AND THAT IS ALL THE WAY, ROO!

Honeykiss1974 12-11-2003 11:29 AM

Re: Good thread
 
Quote:

Originally posted by ladygreek
Second, I heard a disheartening stat today. Of AAs in Minnesota who are of voting age, 20 percent are ineligible because of felony convictions. The percentage for non-AAs is only 1 percent. :eek: Add that to the stat already stated that only 20 percent of the eligible AA voters vote, that is a huge issue.
Sadly that is the case in a LOT of areas. And Clinton was the president that signed that mess into law! :mad:

Which goes to show you(or us rather) that dividing ourselves (AfAm) over political lines (Dem. vs. Rep.) is ludicrous. They both have their specific agenda when it comes to Afr. Americans.

Love_Spell_6 12-11-2003 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by DoggyStyle82
I noticed your tag line with the Jesse Peterson quote. It reminds me of Booker T Washington and his battles with WEB DuBois. Neither was right nor wrong, but it is the right combination of the two that lead to improvement of AA society.

Peterson loses a little credibility with me for attacking other Black leaders on conservative white programs (like when he ripped Jesse Jackson on Bill O'Reilly's show). I'll just say that there is a "right way" to be right. In a family, when you argue with your brother or sister, it should not empower the enemies of your family.

Are you familiar with Project 21?

Yes I understand what you're saying about Peterson...but on the topics he speaks of...his point of view is so rarely heard... Just because he's on Bill O'Reilly's show making his point...doesn't make it any less valid. Black commentators etc.. aren't really trying to hear what he's saying. The issues in our community aren't a secret...so what's the problem with voicing them whenever and whereever the opportunity is presented? People that oppose his views have no problem with getting on these same media outlets and calling him, Condoleeza Rice, Colin Powell, Janice Rogers Brown, etc... all kinds of offensive names..so how is this different?

You use the analogy of a family argument...well i would assert that these leaders do not consider Peterson and other AA's with this point of view a part of their family.... The things AA leaders say about other AA with opposing viewpoints are sad and disheartening.

No, I am not familiar with Project 21...would you care to explain??...I'll do a bit of research on my own as well...

BeVocal1911 12-11-2003 12:58 PM

Great Topic and Discussion
 
Quote:

Sadly that is the case in a LOT of areas. And Clinton was the president that signed that mess into law!
I'm new to this forum - great topic and discussion.

Just wanted to get some clarification on the quote above. In terms of laws disenfranchising due to felony offenses - I'm not sure how Clinton "signed that mess into law!"

There have always been states in the Union that disenfranchised people for felony convictions. All but three states deprive incarcerated offenders the right to vote, roughtly 35 states disenfranchise non-incarcerated offenders (convicted criminals under the supervision of the criminal justice system - probation, parole, etc.) and about 15 states disenfranchise ex-offenders for life.

These laws came about during slavery and resurfaced with vigor during reconstruction. Of course we know the use of those laws (and the impact) and they are still used for the same reasons today.

I just wanted to know what law exactly did Clinton sign. Enlighten a brotha.

My $.11 cents - we need to stop being reactionary. The Black community needs to be proactive. What is our agenda? Is there a goal that we are trying to reach? "Power concedes nothing without a demand." What are we demanding? And the main thing - what is the Black community doing to police, educate and uplift our own?

Doggystyle and AceDawg - good stuff Bruhs. Thanks for starting this discussion Ace. If you are ever in Miami - holla at a Bruh. ROO!

Buddha
1 Dawg - Sigma Alpha - Spring Q002

Love_Spell_6 12-11-2003 01:05 PM

Re: Great Topic and Discussion
 
Quote:

Originally posted by BeVocal1911
I'm new to this forum - great topic and discussion.

Just wanted to get some clarification on the quote above. In terms of laws disenfranchising due to felony offenses - I'm not sure how Clinton "signed that mess into law!"

There have always been states in the Union that disenfranchised people for felony convictions. All but three states deprive incarcerated offenders the right to vote, roughtly 35 states disenfranchise non-incarcerated offenders (convicted criminals under the supervision of the criminal justice system - probation, parole, etc.) and about 15 states disenfranchise ex-offenders for life.

These laws came about during slavery and resurfaced with vigor during reconstruction. Of course we know the use of those laws (and the impact) and they are still used for the same reasons today.

I just wanted to know what law exactly did Clinton sign. Enlighten a brotha.

My $.11 cents - we need to stop being reactionary. The Black community needs to be proactive. What is our agenda? Is there a goal that we are trying to reach? "Power concedes nothing without a demand." What are we demanding? And the main thing - what is the Black community doing to police, educate and uplift our own?

Doggystyle and AceDawg - good stuff Bruhs. Thanks for starting this discussion Ace. If you are ever in Miami - holla at a Bruh. ROO!

Buddha
1 Dawg - Sigma Alpha - Spring Q002

Welcome to GC Frat! Please post often...we are in need of more of the male persective ;) And u know ERRRYYBODY luv da bruz anyway... ;)

In regards to your post..I am not sure of the specific law that Honeykiss1974 is referring to either...but my question is...
who's fault is it that these AA's lost their right to vote?? Are you saying that since these laws were enacted during slaver that they are no longer valid??? Some blame it on the discrepancies in incarceration rates for blacks vs. whites. I'm not buying that though...I'm all for self-accountability. ENOUGH ALREADY with blaming other people for our shortcomings, mistakes, etc..

Honeykiss1974 12-11-2003 01:34 PM

Re: Great Topic and Discussion
 
Quote:

Originally posted by BeVocal1911

I just wanted to know what law exactly did Clinton sign. Enlighten a brotha.


Opps, you're right.

It was the Welfare Reform Act that he passed that denied assistance and benefits to people convicted of CERTAIN :rolleyes: drug related convictions (pretty much destroying a stepping stone to get back on their feet i.e. food stamps, federal assistance, student loans, etc.).

Sorry, wrong thread. :D There are so many things against us its hard to keep track.

It is something to look at though. Out of a total of 3,892,400 felons in the US, 1,367,100 are black men :eek:

I agree with Love-spell. At what point do we (AfAm) take a look at ourselves and say "What are we doing wrong?"

Kimmie1913 12-11-2003 02:17 PM

Re: Re: Great Topic and Discussion
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Love_Spell_6
Welcome to GC Frat! Please post often...we are in need of more of the male persective ;) And u know ERRRYYBODY luv da bruz anyway... ;)

In regards to your post..I am not sure of the specific law that Honeykiss1974 is referring to either...but my question is...
who's fault is it that these AA's lost their right to vote?? Are you saying that since these laws were enacted during slaver that they are no longer valid??? Some blame it on the discrepancies in incarceration rates for blacks vs. whites. I'm not buying that though...I'm all for self-accountability. ENOUGH ALREADY with blaming other people for our shortcomings, mistakes, etc..

Although this is somewhat moving away from the topic of the thread, here are my concerns with disenfranchisement. What exactly is the rationale for taking away the right to vote? What is the purpose for this disenfranchisement? Our justice system has multiple personality disorder. Some of its policies are based on punishment, some on rehabilitation. On one hand, it says you are supposedly welcomed back into society once you have paid your debt but on the other hand you can never pay your debt because you will always be without certain "rights."

I think what is significant about the fact that these laws came about during slavery and reconstruction/Jim crow relates to their underlying purpose and rationale. Are they accomplishing anything and is there a reason we feel that someone with a felony conviction should not be able to vote? Maybe the majority of people do feel they make sense but I wonder has anyone really stopped to think about it.

As far as accountability, I agree. We are all responsible for our own choices and actions. I am of the mindset that it is not about excusing AfAm's who do wrong because the system is not equal, it is about making the system equal and punishing everyone who deserves it. All Americans need to be held accountable. When I argue against racial profiling, it is not to say I think those who were caught should have not been but to say I want them to look for all criminals regardless of race. The choice to more vigorously police one population will result in finding the criminals where you look. I want them to look everywhere, not just here. I want the role of bias in arrests, prosecution, and sentencing to be acknowledged and addressed. I want the playing field to not be theoretically even but actually even. If you think it is even in the criminal justice system, come sit in the courthouse in Baltimore City and watch the disparate goings ons with me for a day or two.

It seems like these discussions (in the world not just GC) often come down to either you think how things are done is fine and AfAm's are society's losers who are whining about nothing or you are somehow rooting to set the criminals free.

Honeykiss1974 12-11-2003 02:29 PM

Re: Re: Re: Great Topic and Discussion
 
There has been a bill in the house since 1999 dedicated to overturning this voting restriction, but it has sat there all this time. No one wil move on it for fear of looking "soft on crime".

Love_Spell_6 12-11-2003 03:15 PM

Re: Re: Re: Great Topic and Discussion
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Kimmie1913
Although this is somewhat moving away from the topic of the thread, here are my concerns with disenfranchisement. What exactly is the rationale for taking away the right to vote? What is the purpose for this disenfranchisement? Our justice system has multiple personality disorder. Some of its policies are based on punishment, some on rehabilitation. On one hand, it says you are supposedly welcomed back into society once you have paid your debt but on the other hand you can never pay your debt because you will always be without certain "rights."

I think what is significant about the fact that these laws came about during slavery and reconstruction/Jim crow relates to their underlying purpose and rationale. Are they accomplishing anything and is there a reason we feel that someone with a felony conviction should not be able to vote? Maybe the majority of people do feel they make sense but I wonder has anyone really stopped to think about it.

As far as accountability, I agree. We are all responsible for our own choices and actions. I am of the mindset that it is not about excusing AfAm's who do wrong because the system is not equal, it is about making the system equal and punishing everyone who deserves it. All Americans need to be held accountable. When I argue against racial profiling, it is not to say I think those who were caught should have not been but to say I want them to look for all criminals regardless of race. The choice to more vigorously police one population will result in finding the criminals where you look. I want them to look everywhere, not just here. I want the role of bias in arrests, prosecution, and sentencing to be acknowledged and addressed. I want the playing field to not be theoretically even but actually even. If you think it is even in the criminal justice system, come sit in the courthouse in Baltimore City and watch the disparate goings ons with me for a day or two.

It seems like these discussions (in the world not just GC) often come down to either you think how things are done is fine and AfAm's are society's losers who are whining about nothing or you are somehow rooting to set the criminals free.

I won't deny that there were probably racist motives that drove the reasons convicted felons can't vote...but see here is the thing.... yes you're supposed to regain "rights" when you get out of prison...but until the recidivism rates drop...convicted criminals don't have a leg to stand on when it comes to defending their "right" to vote....and that they're done their "time." The justice system isn't perfect..as is no system...but dang....its not like our folx are running to the RIGHT to vote anyway....lets deal with those that have this right first and aren't using it....then deal with the convicted criminals!

You point to the courthouse in Baltimore City and the playing field being uneven...well is it really the Criminal Justice system or is it the AA's that are committing the crimes?? I'm sorry..but the fact that there are more black males incarcerated than in college speaks to me about the Black community family etc... not the Criminal Justice system. Yes there are sentencing differences etc... but are you saying that AA's aren't committing crime disproportionately to other races??

We can blame the criminal justice system, we can blame the repubs or dems for laws/bills that did or did not pass, slavery....all that! But the bottom line is we need to get ourselves in order. If we don't want to get sent to jail in record numbers...its up to US to change that...not the Criminal Justice system....

As far as racial profiling...that could lead into another thread...but I will say this. Maybe it is racial profiling..but it think its STUPID to be pulling little old ladies out of the line in the airport...while Arab men walk through...all in the interest of being fair...but I digress!

OK I think this thread is OFFICIALLY hijacked!

Kimmie1913 12-11-2003 04:23 PM

Re: Re: Re: Re: Great Topic and Discussion
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Love_Spell_6
I won't deny that there were probably racist motives that drove the reasons convicted felons can't vote...but see here is the thing.... yes you're supposed to regain "rights" when you get out of prison...but until the recidivism rates drop...convicted criminals don't have a leg to stand on when it comes to defending their "right" to vote....and that they're done their "time." The justice system isn't perfect..as is no system...but dang....its not like our folx are running to the RIGHT to vote anyway....lets deal with those that have this right first and aren't using it....then deal with the convicted criminals!

You point to the courthouse in Baltimore City and the playing field being uneven...well is it really the Criminal Justice system or is it the AA's that are committing the crimes?? I'm sorry..but the fact that there are more black males incarcerated than in college speaks to me about the Black community family etc... not the Criminal Justice system. Yes there are sentencing differences etc... but are you saying that AA's aren't committing crime disproportionately to other races??

We can blame the criminal justice system, we can blame the repubs or dems for laws/bills that did or did not pass, slavery....all that! But the bottom line is we need to get ourselves in order. If we don't want to get sent to jail in record numbers...its up to US to change that...not the Criminal Justice system....

As far as racial profiling...that could lead into another thread...but I will say this. Maybe it is racial profiling..but it think its STUPID to be pulling little old ladies out of the line in the airport...while Arab men walk through...all in the interest of being fair...but I digress!

OK I think this thread is OFFICIALLY hijacked!


Hijacked it is!

We are in agreement on so many points. I absolutely agree that the most important thing is to rebuild the fabric and character of the African American community. Assimilation has been a double edged sword, bringing opportunity and, in other ways, destruction of the lynchpins of AfAm society. I believe in our attempts to be like "mainstream" America we have lost our sense of values. We have steadily moved away from the strong family and extended family, routinely put instant gratification above all else and have become thoroughly self centered.

Although I will debate and discuss disenfranchisement, I am not saying this is my priority issue or that I think this is OUR priority issue. But if you ask me about it, I can discuss it and tell you what I think. That does not mean that I would not say that the "bottom line is we need to get ourselves in order." I think we have turned parenting of our kids over to the media, who has them convinced they are supposed to be in Manolo Blahniks and Platinum at 15. Our collective priorities are out of whack. Our house is in great disarray- I absolutely agree with you on that, Soror.

Yes, I know the statistics reflect that Af Am's are being arrested and convicted for crimes at a disproportionately high rate. (I cannot speak as to whether we are committing crimes at a disproportionately high rate.) We should not be committing crimes at all. That does not belie the fact that I do believe that the criminal justice system seeks out Black people to interrogate, arrest and prosecute. While I think that we need to address why we are committing crimes in the first place, I will not stop speaking out against the injustices that do go on in the system. I do not see the things as either/or (either I work on the community or I speak out against the bias)

As to your racial profiling comment- hoe would you determine when it makes sense to be fair and when not. And who it is okay to treat poorly and who not?

ladygreek 12-11-2003 05:17 PM

Example of the bias of the justice system:
The punishment for possession of crack is greater than for possession of cocaine. Who is most likely to use crack and who is most likely to use cocaine?

Wonder what Al Gore would say about this? j/k--a feeble attempt at humor to at least have some semblance to the original topic. :p

DoggyStyle82 12-12-2003 12:46 AM

Re: Great Topic and Discussion
 
Quote:

Originally posted by BeVocal1911
I'm new to this forum - great topic and discussion.

Just wanted to get some clarification on the quote above. In terms of laws disenfranchising due to felony offenses - I'm not sure how Clinton "signed that mess into law!"

There have always been states in the Union that disenfranchised people for felony convictions. All but three states deprive incarcerated offenders the right to vote, roughtly 35 states disenfranchise non-incarcerated offenders (convicted criminals under the supervision of the criminal justice system - probation, parole, etc.) and about 15 states disenfranchise ex-offenders for life.

These laws came about during slavery and resurfaced with vigor during reconstruction. Of course we know the use of those laws (and the impact) and they are still used for the same reasons today.

I just wanted to know what law exactly did Clinton sign. Enlighten a brotha.

My $.11 cents - we need to stop being reactionary. The Black community needs to be proactive. What is our agenda? Is there a goal that we are trying to reach? "Power concedes nothing without a demand." What are we demanding? And the main thing - what is the Black community doing to police, educate and uplift our own?

Doggystyle and AceDawg - good stuff Bruhs. Thanks for starting this discussion Ace. If you are ever in Miami - holla at a Bruh. ROO!

Buddha
1 Dawg - Sigma Alpha - Spring Q002

Dawg, I met your Tail, David, this past summer. Welcome Bruh. Be owt.

I'm between LoveSpell and Kimmie on crime and punishment. I know firsthand how disparate the treatment is between Blacks and whites. White non-violent criminals get released on thier own recognicance and white juveniles released to custody of parents, while AAs get high bail or no release until their trial.

Like LadyGreek said, less crack wikk get you more time than murder, while white powder coke users get treated like its a spliff. But I'm with LOVESPELL in that the negroes shouldn't have done the crime in the first place.

acedawg00-02 12-12-2003 09:05 AM

Quote:

Doggystyle and AceDawg - good stuff Bruhs. Thanks for starting this discussion Ace. If you are ever in Miami - holla at a Bruh. ROO!



Bruh, no doubt...and it's good to have you here! In all honesty, I met some of your chapter Bruhz at the Florida Classic over in Orlando....it was tite...bruhz were hoppin' and old school bruhz were showin' us a thing or two. Anyway, I'll PM you my info...we can holla - mos def.


BE OWT, DAWG....ROOO!

Love_Spell_6 12-12-2003 12:01 PM

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Great Topic and Discussion
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Kimmie1913
Hijacked it is!

We are in agreement on so many points. I absolutely agree that the most important thing is to rebuild the fabric and character of the African American community. Assimilation has been a double edged sword, bringing opportunity and, in other ways, destruction of the lynchpins of AfAm society. I believe in our attempts to be like "mainstream" America we have lost our sense of values. We have steadily moved away from the strong family and extended family, routinely put instant gratification above all else and have become thoroughly self centered.

Although I will debate and discuss disenfranchisement, I am not saying this is my priority issue or that I think this is OUR priority issue. But if you ask me about it, I can discuss it and tell you what I think. That does not mean that I would not say that the "bottom line is we need to get ourselves in order." I think we have turned parenting of our kids over to the media, who has them convinced they are supposed to be in Manolo Blahniks and Platinum at 15. Our collective priorities are out of whack. Our house is in great disarray- I absolutely agree with you on that, Soror.

Yes, I know the statistics reflect that Af Am's are being arrested and convicted for crimes at a disproportionately high rate. (I cannot speak as to whether we are committing crimes at a disproportionately high rate.) We should not be committing crimes at all. That does not belie the fact that I do believe that the criminal justice system seeks out Black people to interrogate, arrest and prosecute. While I think that we need to address why we are committing crimes in the first place, I will not stop speaking out against the injustices that do go on in the system. I do not see the things as either/or (either I work on the community or I speak out against the bias)

As to your racial profiling comment- hoe would you determine when it makes sense to be fair and when not. And who it is okay to treat poorly and who not?

See that's the thing...everything is not always fair...Its like this...if I get pulled over because I "fit the profile" of someone...and its not me...assuming there's no physical brutality etc... all I had to deal with was inconvenience. I think its stupid to not pull a car over on the NJ TPK if (hypothetically) 95% of the drug trafficers are black males driving certain cars from certain states....I think that's good police work. Just like I think its not wise to NOT pull Arab men out of the line at the AIrport when they fit the profile for the terrorists! Of course I'm generalizing here...but I hope you see my point.

If I have to suffer some inconvenience in the interest of justice...so be it. If you're not carrying drugs on the turnpike or weapons on the plane...why be concerned?

I know there are corrupt cops, judges etc. out there that will just target people because of their race...but I sincerely feel they are in the minority. Bottom line..don't go to a drug infested area driving your Bentley with 86 gold teeth if you don't want to "fit the profile" of someone doing something they aint got not business!

DoggyStyle82 12-12-2003 07:23 PM

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Great Topic and Discussion
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Love_Spell_6
See that's the thing...everything is not always fair...Its like this...if I get pulled over because I "fit the profile" of someone...and its not me...assuming there's no physical brutality etc... all I had to deal with was inconvenience. I think its stupid to not pull a car over on the NJ TPK if (hypothetically) 95% of the drug trafficers are black males driving certain cars from certain states....I think that's good police work. Just like I think its not wise to NOT pull Arab men out of the line at the AIrport when they fit the profile for the terrorists! Of course I'm generalizing here...but I hope you see my point.

If I have to suffer some inconvenience in the interest of justice...so be it. If you're not carrying drugs on the turnpike or weapons on the plane...why be concerned?

I know there are corrupt cops, judges etc. out there that will just target people because of their race...but I sincerely feel they are in the minority. Bottom line..don't go to a drug infested area driving your Bentley with 86 gold teeth if you don't want to "fit the profile" of someone doing something they aint got not business!

Ohh, that is bad thinking there Sis. Because you fit a profile is no reason to be stopped, inconvenience or harassed. Only in a police state or under Nazi rule is that ever justified. One should only be stopped, searched, and inconvenienced when there is an imminent threat or a crime against someone has been committed in the vicinity. I don't care how many 6 ft 200LB Black males committ crimes. The 75% that don't need'nt be inconvenienced. Is every 30 something white investment broker having their homes ransacked, personal computers absconded, property repossesed because they fit the profile of a mutual fund scammer? Is every suburban teen who cruises the inner city to buy drugs and take back to the 'burbs profiled, stopped, and searched? Hell no!!! As Kimmie said, this does not justify criminal activty, but until everyone is treated similar, we, ourselves cannot put the boot on our own necks. Not only would we be seeing ourselves as our enemies do (I won't say oppressors, because any oppression is self imposed), but we would be complicit in their demonization of us. Stop me when I do something, not because my appearance dictates it. Shoot, I've been stopped on the Jersey Turnpike 9 times!!! Never a ticket, not once. Just for being Black in a late model, expensive car. White middle aged women are the most prolific shoplifters, but they don't get followed around the store and if caught, rarely serve time. We must be careful in applying that broad brush. It often leads to self-hate and the self fulfilling prophecy of if I'm going to be viewed and treated as a criminal, I might as well be one.

ladygreek 12-12-2003 08:49 PM

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Great Topic and Discussion
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Love_Spell_6
See that's the thing...everything is not always fair...Its like this...if I get pulled over because I "fit the profile" of someone...and its not me...assuming there's no physical brutality etc... all I had to deal with was inconvenience. I think its stupid to not pull a car over on the NJ TPK if (hypothetically) 95% of the drug trafficers are black males driving certain cars from certain states....I think that's good police work. Just like I think its not wise to NOT pull Arab men out of the line at the AIrport when they fit the profile for the terrorists! Of course I'm generalizing here...but I hope you see my point.

If I have to suffer some inconvenience in the interest of justice...so be it. If you're not carrying drugs on the turnpike or weapons on the plane...why be concerned?

I know there are corrupt cops, judges etc. out there that will just target people because of their race...but I sincerely feel they are in the minority. Bottom line..don't go to a drug infested area driving your Bentley with 86 gold teeth if you don't want to "fit the profile" of someone doing something they aint got not business!

But bottom line, racial profiling is a violation of the Bill of Rights that are designed to protect the civil liberties of everyone, regardless of race, creed, of color. Doggy gave some very real comparisons.

Right now, the ACLU of Minnesota is handling the case of a Black woman who was detained upon arriving at the Mpls airport because she arrived on a red-eye from LA with a carry-on bag. She was stripped searched for drugs. She was stopped (and security admitted it) because of her color, where she traveled from, the time of day she traveled, and because she had a bag. Turns out not only is she a professional Black woman but the daughter of a former Mpls. policeman.

If this had happened to you, would you have considered it just an inconvenience?

Love_Spell_6 12-12-2003 11:35 PM

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Great Topic and Discussion
 
Quote:

Originally posted by DoggyStyle82
Ohh, that is bad thinking there Sis. Because you fit a profile is no reason to be stopped, inconvenience or harassed. Only in a police state or under Nazi rule is that ever justified. One should only be stopped, searched, and inconvenienced when there is an imminent threat or a crime against someone has been committed in the vicinity. I don't care how many 6 ft 200LB Black males committ crimes. The 75% that don't need'nt be inconvenienced. Is every 30 something white investment broker having their homes ransacked, personal computers absconded, property repossesed because they fit the profile of a mutual fund scammer? Is every suburban teen who cruises the inner city to buy drugs and take back to the 'burbs profiled, stopped, and searched? Hell no!!! As Kimmie said, this does not justify criminal activty, but until everyone is treated similar, we, ourselves cannot put the boot on our own necks. Not only would we be seeing ourselves as our enemies do (I won't say oppressors, because any oppression is self imposed), but we would be complicit in their demonization of us. Stop me when I do something, not because my appearance dictates it. Shoot, I've been stopped on the Jersey Turnpike 9 times!!! Never a ticket, not once. Just for being Black in a late model, expensive car. White middle aged women are the most prolific shoplifters, but they don't get followed around the store and if caught, rarely serve time. We must be careful in applying that broad brush. It often leads to self-hate and the self fulfilling prophecy of if I'm going to be viewed and treated as a criminal, I might as well be one.
Yes you're right about painting the broad brush....but are u saying that the incidents where people are unjustly stopped outnumber the people that are justly stopped? And as far as police work..many times a profile is what begins an investigation.. I'm just saying that many times its not just a case of brothas being in the wrong place at the wrong time...a lot of times they are caught up in doing something they shouldn't be... I'm not saying arrest all brothas that fit the profile...but at the same time..I'm not going to act like ALL brothas are innocent and are just being harassed...

I hope no one really thinks there is a way to do things without anyone ever being inconvenienced, unjustly stopped, or made to feel uncomfortable...there is no such perfect institution..especially when it is being carried out by imperfect humans.

Ladygreek...its always easy to point out the extreme situations and say that the whole system is jacked up....just as some do with pledging when someone dies and uses that as a reason to say pledging is evil....How many times on the news do you hear when WHITE policeman do treat BLACK suspects equally and with respect...not often because that's not newsworthy... Don't get caught up in the spin!

But my question to everyone is what solutions do you all have?

Kimmie1913 12-13-2003 05:48 AM

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Great Topic and Discussion
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Love_Spell_6
See that's the thing...everything is not always fair...Its like this...if I get pulled over because I "fit the profile" of someone...and its not me...assuming there's no physical brutality etc... all I had to deal with was inconvenience. I think its stupid to not pull a car over on the NJ TPK if (hypothetically) 95% of the drug trafficers are black males driving certain cars from certain states....I think that's good police work. Just like I think its not wise to NOT pull Arab men out of the line at the AIrport when they fit the profile for the terrorists! Of course I'm generalizing here...but I hope you see my point.

If I have to suffer some inconvenience in the interest of justice...so be it. If you're not carrying drugs on the turnpike or weapons on the plane...why be concerned?

I know there are corrupt cops, judges etc. out there that will just target people because of their race...but I sincerely feel they are in the minority. Bottom line..don't go to a drug infested area driving your Bentley with 86 gold teeth if you don't want to "fit the profile" of someone doing something they aint got not business!

" think its stupid to not pull a car over on the NJ TPK if (hypothetically) 95% of the drug trafficers are black males driving certain cars from certain states...."

Here's the thing- there is no criminal profile that is that dead on. Ther is no crime being committed solely by people fitting one description. The statistics do not demonstrate that the actual number of Black people committing crime is substantially higher than the actual number(not percent) of others committing crime. While the number may be disproportionate to our percent of the population, the raw number still is not in our favor. Second, even if 95% of all drug traffickers were Black males (which they are not) that is not the same thing as 95% of Black males being drug traffickers. Racial profiling,, however acts as if the latter statement is the case. I will never concede that law abiding citizens should forgo their rights because they are Black.

Where I live, the Black men in my life are routinley stopped by the police. They are not criminals and are involved in criminal activity in no way whatsoever. What are they? Relatively young (27-35) year old Black men who are successful professionals. They drive nice, late model cars, some expensive. Baltimore City is the "hood"- if they choose to drive through the city to get to work, or to put on a sweatsuit to run errands on a Saturday, I do not find it acceptable that they should be subjected to stops. I simply don't. Growing up, one of my brother's friends was stopped by police once a week. After seeing the documentation of the stops, the police commander from his district (who could probably feel the law suit headed his way) had to intervene and order the patrol men to get it together. He knew ir was nothing more than a racial profile. They were harassing him for being a Black, 17 year old whose parents let him borrow the car on weekends. No other reason to suspect him of doing anything.

It has never been demonstrated to me that racial profiling is the great police tool some like to think it is. And here is why- if you only stop Black people you will only catch Black criminals. If you begin with the ASSumption that Black people commit all the crime and do not look for anyone else to do it, you will find what you are looking for. Doggy's shoplifting example rings so true for me. In college, my girl friends and I drove to Syracuse to go to a real mall. ( Ithaca had none.) In the department store, the sales woman followed us and watched our every move. I am sure she was certain that these four Black girls were there to steal not shop. It would never enter her mind that we could possibly be anything but criminals. Meanwhile, also in her section, a white woman was robbing them blind. We watched her steal 6 articles of clothing. The saleswoman never noticed or thought to notice because to her, we were the"profile." And like Ladygrrek’s story, My cousin was subjected to strip searching when returning to BWI on a class trip to Hong Kong with her MBA program. She was the only Black person on the trip and the only one even questioned, none the less detained and violated. That is more than a mere inconvenience. That was humiliating for her, both the experience and being singled out in front of her classmates as though she had done something wrong. There is a stigma that comes with having been detained by the police, even when they wrong. I have so many anecdotal examples of people being falsely arrested (and in one case convicted) from people I know it is mind blowing.

Of course anyone may be stopped inadvertently but on the basis of a legitimate reason. If all you have is the description of a vehicle like mine, you might stop me. That is perfect logical and good police work. I do believe sometimes people are stopped in this way. Unfortunately, when someone is stopped over and over again and not issued tickets, not found to have done anything at all, not even resembling a wanted person, just being "checked out" for being Black, I think that is a problem.

Some of you posts suggest that you feel our people are truly the criminal element around here, enough so we all are deservedly inconvenienced or harassed. Do you agree with the Black criminal stereotype that is pumped into all of our homes?

Love_Spell_6 12-13-2003 04:08 PM

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Great Topic and Discussion
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Kimmie1913
" think its stupid to not pull a car over on the NJ TPK if (hypothetically) 95% of the drug trafficers are black males driving certain cars from certain states...."

Here's the thing- there is no criminal profile that is that dead on. Ther is no crime being committed solely by people fitting one description. The statistics do not demonstrate that the actual number of Black people committing crime is substantially higher than the actual number(not percent) of others committing crime. While the number may be disproportionate to our percent of the population, the raw number still is not in our favor. Second, even if 95% of all drug traffickers were Black males (which they are not) that is not the same thing as 95% of Black males being drug traffickers. Racial profiling,, however acts as if the latter statement is the case. I will never concede that law abiding citizens should forgo their rights because they are Black.

Where I live, the Black men in my life are routinley stopped by the police. They are not criminals and are involved in criminal activity in no way whatsoever. What are they? Relatively young (27-35) year old Black men who are successful professionals. They drive nice, late model cars, some expensive. Baltimore City is the "hood"- if they choose to drive through the city to get to work, or to put on a sweatsuit to run errands on a Saturday, I do not find it acceptable that they should be subjected to stops. I simply don't. Growing up, one of my brother's friends was stopped by police once a week. After seeing the documentation of the stops, the police commander from his district (who could probably feel the law suit headed his way) had to intervene and order the patrol men to get it together. He knew ir was nothing more than a racial profile. They were harassing him for being a Black, 17 year old whose parents let him borrow the car on weekends. No other reason to suspect him of doing anything.

It has never been demonstrated to me that racial profiling is the great police tool some like to think it is. And here is why- if you only stop Black people you will only catch Black criminals. If you begin with the ASSumption that Black people commit all the crime and do not look for anyone else to do it, you will find what you are looking for. Doggy's shoplifting example rings so true for me. In college, my girl friends and I drove to Syracuse to go to a real mall. ( Ithaca had none.) In the department store, the sales woman followed us and watched our every move. I am sure she was certain that these four Black girls were there to steal not shop. It would never enter her mind that we could possibly be anything but criminals. Meanwhile, also in her section, a white woman was robbing them blind. We watched her steal 6 articles of clothing. The saleswoman never noticed or thought to notice because to her, we were the"profile." And like Ladygrrek’s story, My cousin was subjected to strip searching when returning to BWI on a class trip to Hong Kong with her MBA program. She was the only Black person on the trip and the only one even questioned, none the less detained and violated. That is more than a mere inconvenience. That was humiliating for her, both the experience and being singled out in front of her classmates as though she had done something wrong. There is a stigma that comes with having been detained by the police, even when they wrong. I have so many anecdotal examples of people being falsely arrested (and in one case convicted) from people I know it is mind blowing.

Of course anyone may be stopped inadvertently but on the basis of a legitimate reason. If all you have is the description of a vehicle like mine, you might stop me. That is perfect logical and good police work. I do believe sometimes people are stopped in this way. Unfortunately, when someone is stopped over and over again and not issued tickets, not found to have done anything at all, not even resembling a wanted person, just being "checked out" for being Black, I think that is a problem.

Some of you posts suggest that you feel our people are truly the criminal element around here, enough so we all are deservedly inconvenienced or harassed. Do you agree with the Black criminal stereotype that is pumped into all of our homes?

Like I said..its easier to point out whats wrong with something...but not so easy I guess to come up with a solution...we all know people who have been stopped unjustly, yada, yada, yada,,, and we can all provide countless examples of that... but now what? What solutions can u bring to the table??

And to address your assumption about me believing our people are truly the criminal element....I'm just not going to "act" as if MANY of our people aren't caught up in the "lifestyle" that leads to a lot of foolish behavior... I live in the #3 murder capital in the US...we had more crimes here than Manhattan last year.... and our city is less than half the size of Manhattan...however most if not ALL the shootings occur in the same areas, among our people that know each other...so I guess a police officer is out of line to search more aggressively in these crime ridden areas??

What I'm saying has nothing to do with saying all black people should be stopped and harassed because they fit the profile....what i am saying is that one is blind if they ignore the fact that many times our people are caught up in situations that are criminal...

Again...what are the solutions??

OH YEA....don't u think its funny that the title of this thread is "Al Gore's endoresement speech" LOL:p :D

ladygreek 12-13-2003 05:45 PM

Love Spell,
Trust and believe that I am not getting caught up in the spin. The case I referenced is more common than not. And thanks to the USA Patriot ACT they are escalating. YOU and the general public don't hear about them because of the spin put forth by Ashcroft and company. I do because of who I work for. And in this case it did not make the papers until we did the press conference announcing that we were taking the case.

Solutions? Restore the budget cuts of social service agencies that deal with prevention and intervention. Restore the budget cuts to agencies that have missions of strengthening families. Pass laws that will make it easier for people who made mistakes as youth to turn their lives around, e.g. give financial aid to those who have felony convictions and/or did not register for the draft so they can get an education that will allow them to raise their economic status legally. Without such safety nets there will continue to be an upswing in criminal behavior.

TonyB06 12-13-2003 07:48 PM

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Great Topic and Discussion
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Kimmie1913
[BHere's the thing- there is no criminal profile that is that dead on. Ther is no crime being committed solely by people fitting one description. ...

(rest deleted for space) [/B]

...brilliant post, Kimmie1913. Best thinking/articulation I've seen on this topic in many a day (you certainly summed it up betta than I was doing.)

carry on, chile...I'm applauding you madly from the front row. :cool:


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