Long Distance Universities
 

Are they worth it? I'm thinking about getting my 2nd master.

what masters are you thinking of getting a degree in? I know at CSU Dominguez Hills we are nationally known for distance learning programs. We have online masters for MBA, Masters in Public Administration, Masters in Quality Assurance, and a Masters in Humanities. We've also just developed an online Bachelors in Quality Assurance.

From my experience of working in a University setting, I think degrees from online programs are sometimes treated with more credibility then some of the adult/executive degrees such as those from University of Phoenix. For instance I know at my school a lot of UoP classes won't be accepted to use within the business program. However if you have an online degree from a school with a good reputation we accept it as being equal to an on campus degree.

does anyone know anything about the university of phoenix online?

i ask because a good friend is doing it to get her masters. i just wonder how employers would look at it and how legit it is

Walden University
 

Based in Chicago, Walden University offers Bachelors, Masters and Doctoral degrees. I have been looking into on line degrees even though I am already enrolled at a university for my masters. Its always an option I may want to consider. Walden has a B.S., M.S. and PhD. in Management, Psychology, Education , Health and Human Services. They offer many different sub concentrations as well such as IO psychology. Its really interesting, and its fairly reasonable with tuition. The only problem is that online degrees may not offer the degree of support that a traditional program may have.

American Intercontinental University
 

Hey all,

Do any of you know about the American Intercontinental University? I have done some research but was wondering if any of you would know something I don't. I applied last Christmas and was accepted based upon my motivation to get the degree. I may or may not go but any extra info would be greatly appreciated.

Just a word of warning: Taking online courses can sometimes be brutal since you're not getting the same type of interaction as actually sitting in a classroom. I tried taking something online, and upon posting a message after a controversal reading, I received tons of messages from angry classmates (there's a 'netspeak term for this and I've forgotten what it was!). Sometimes, people misinterpret your tone online.

check http://www.greekchat.com/gcforums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=43145

I was thinking about doing the same thing... I know I'd actually do the work, I just don't want to put in the effort and end up with a worthless degree... anyway, I'm still looking into it!

I received my eBusiness degree from UoP Dallas. The classes are intense, but were rewarding. Everyone there is mature, and the instructors generally were very knowledgeable in their field of study. Most were Ivy League educated and extremely succesful in their field of expertise.

My learning team members were also already doing very well in their technology careers, but wanted the validation of having a degree. I benefited greatly from their experience. (But learning teams were a pain. Don't let anyone tell you you get your degree in just one night a week! Many students couldn't do the work or didn't have time for the work and dropped out. Although I heard they changed it up some since I graduated.)

As far as online goes... The same professors were teaching some online classes, but the classes were way more intense. Much more work was involved with the online classes. Twice as many papers, more in-depth projects. Not sure I would want to do my whole program online. I would miss the interaction with classmates & instructors.

I'm thinking of doing the weekend MBA program that UF has. You go to UF every few weekends and go to class. I think the rest of the program is online. Has anyone done something similar to this?

You're lucky you're not a mutant, otherwise you might not get into this fine program.

-Rudey

Syracuse has an independent study program I was looking into. You have to spend a week at school each trimester. The rest of the semester can be completed from anywhere. Pricy, but convenient. Syracuse iMBA

Yup, glad I'm not.


I found out more about the UF MBA program. It's a one year program for people who have their bachelors in business and two years for those who don't. You go to UF 5 times a semester for a weekend and the rest of class is online. It's the same MBA that you would get if you had done their regular program.
After I get two years of professional work experience (the requirement is at least 2 years), I'll look more into it. I talked to a girl I used to work with at Siemens who was involved in the program. She says it's tough but it's great if you're working full-time and don't have the time to attend classes.
I think FSU has a similar program so I'll look into that too. I'm concentrating on Florida schools; that way I won't have to pay out-of-state tuition. :)

ETA:
I just have to start concentrating on taking the GMATs. BLAH!

And MBA in general is a vacation and primarily used as name dropping if possible. I hope you all realize an MBA from a school that isn't top 10 is a joke. An MBA from a long distance university is even more of a joke. An MBA combining a school not in the top 10 and long distance...well that's just a gross thing that slow people with bad jobs get I think.

-Rudey

Well, fortunately for me, I don't define myself by which school I went to or the job I have. That's what people do who don't have any other good attributes I think.

You're right...So people who aren't smart, don't have good jobs can brag about...

But bless your heart for considering that these people might have other good qualities to them.

Now maybe it's character, the fact that these people give back to their communities, maybe they have great relationships and families, solid spiritual and/or religious beliefs, maybe they're good looking - well who knows. I'm just glad I have all these attributes myself as well as being smart, ya know?

-Rudey
--Besos

In general, I think that's how guys see MBAs and graduate school, etc. Most girls don't CARE about networking and they don't CARE to call up someone they don't know and kiss their butt for 20 minutes to get something from them, just because they went to their school a few years before they did.

It doesn't matter where you go to school. And just because you go to a top 10 school doesn't mean you're smart either. Generally, people attend a school based on what's best for them, not because Joe Blow went there or because it's ranked #1 in the country or whatever. Besides, comparing MBA programs (or any program, for that matter) nationally is like trying to compare GLOs nationally. It's not easily done, and the results are going to either be incorrect, or they'll change again in a year or two.

That is total horsecrap. An MBA is a bull degree. There is no substance to it. I took every difficult class (finance, accounting, statistics, and empirical modelling classes are the only really difficult ones available) an MBA student could take at Chicago as well as some classes at Columbia and Tuck while an undergrad. Most of them there are using it as a vacation. You work hard for 2-3 years and then come in and use that as a vacation. People make claims you learn something but study after study has shown otherwise. That is why a top 10 program is what counts. It's because you use it to name drop and to brag. You use it to get nifty little business cards from the school with your name on it for when recruiters come. You don't kiss up to anyone...that name on your resume opens up doors and from there you do the work.

And yes schools can be compared and most pale in comparison to the top schools. The rankings for MBAs don't change too rapidly and while undergrad rankings change it's pretty much set which schools are top 10 (Ivy+). While it isn't a definite that you're smarter if you go to a better school, it's definitely a higher probability that you are. And for MBAs while overall rankings don't change much, programs change even less - Kellogg is great for marketing, Stanford and HBS great for entrepreneurial type programs, and Chicago and Wharton great for finance type programs.

What is it that makes some podunk mba better than harvard business school?? Nothing. You learn little enough at HBS so at some podunk school you learn even less than that and are exposed to less talented people. Recruiters don't come to your school really and you end up with a worthless and expensive degree for nothing.

What do you disagree with here? Oh and just so you know there are girls in top MBA programs too so it isn't a sex isolated phenomenon.

-Rudey

Okay, first of all, I didn't say it was a "sex isolated phenomenon." I said that girls GENERALLY get their MBA for a different reason than guys do, i.e. guys use the MBA as a networking tool, used for name-dropping, etc. Most girls get their MBA to have an advanced degree. Here is a link to an article addressing this. http://www.careerjournal.com/special...-cjwomen1.html

What I disagree with is you saying not to bother getting an MBA from a school that isn't top-10 and you implying that a distance learning MBA is worthless. That is an ignorant thought process. And yes you are kissing up to people by saying, oh I went to such and such school, do this for me or give me this job. That's EXACTLY what that is.

Waving a degree from Harvard or Stanford in front of my face doesn't impress me one bit. Oh, so you were rich enough to afford to go there? Or you are now so deep in debt that you are going to have to work longer than I am to pay it off? Good for you. If a person from Harvard and a person from Joe Blow University walked in for the same interview, there is no guarantee that the Harvard grad is going to get the job.

I don't agree that a top 10 school is necessary. If you are smart, talented, and successful in your field the MBA is just a requirement to get past the HR nazis. Some HR departments won't give in on their requirements. An MBA, any MBA, can get you past that hurdle. (Most hiring directors don't want to go to the effort to fight HR, when there is someone just as qualified with a MBA behind you.)

I don't know about the MBA being a vacation, I haven't completed any course work towards my MBA. But I do agree with Rudey that the content of the program is not very important. The degree is just necessary to climb the ladder. (There are always exceptions, but for the most part I see this as true).

Oh I see, you have no facts just ideas that might be facts? Cut me a break here. There is no kissing up. Go look on company websites and see where they recruit from. You don't wave your MBA. And yes if Joe Blow and Harvard U Boy compete, Harvard boys wins. Why wouldn't he??? He sacrificed more to get in, was in a better program, has a fancier degree so why wouldn't he the majority of the time?? I've never heard anyone say top schools are worthless. That is a ridiculous statement to make. What proves it has worth? Average income afterwards? Alumni connections? Renowned teachers?? Perhaps the fact that you climb the corporate ladder faster than someone with a no-name degree? Because tell me what it is that Podunk U has over other schools since that'd be great to know.

And the whole rich comment made no sense. You have to pay. Either that money comes from your work sponsoring you, you've made the money prior to entering, or you took out loans. Are any of those bad at all? And yes some people might have generous parents who pay for all that even when their adults but the majority don't. Is debt bad? Is it debt or an investment? Actually since your salary shoots up from a top 10 school you can make back that money. Heck I loved my school loans...I put that amount of money into aggressive biotech funds and I'm earning a decent amount so far.

You're not addressing what I say. But if you'd like turn your eye from the truth, settle for a no-name place, and waste money. But while you're wasting money can I have some too?

-Rudey

....that's funny, I am addressing what you say. Here, I'll make it easier for you:

1 - there IS kissing up. Either you don't see it, or you must not want to admit it. I see it happen every day, so I know that it happens.
2 - Harvard boy might win, but not every time. Joe Blow boy will win too. HR is not going to base their hiring decision purely on where the applicant's degree is from.
3 - I never said that Ivy-league degrees are worthless. Please show me where I said that.
4 - proving what your degree is worth is obviously in the eye of the beholder. If someone's ultimate goal in life is to become the CEO of one of the top companies in the country or the world, then yeah, an ivy-league MBA will get you there faster. But it doesn't guarantee that you will get the job over someone else. But if your goal in life is to have a job for which an MBA is required, then going to Joe Blow U is fine. If you already have a job before you even get out of school, then none of that recruitment stuff will apply to you anyways. You're already a step ahead of your classmates.
5 - the rich comment was made as in saying I (as in me, myself and I) don't see any difference in someone who went to Harvard and someone who went to Joe Blow U. If they both have an MBA degree, then they are both qualified for the job that requires it. The person who went to Harvard probably payed a LOT more money to put themself through school than the guy who went to Joe Blow did.

Your points addressed:
1 - You have no evidence, facts, numbers. YOU see it. I see dead people.
2 - Oh so now it's not every time so Harvard boy does seem to have an advantage a lot of the time huh? Well I guess as long as Harvard boy isn't an idiot who managed to get bad grades in the easy classes he should do well.
3 - You didn't say it but when you say you end up with larger debt and the same jobs what does that mean?
4 - Most people I know get recruited while in school. Your in the eye of the beholder comment might work if you actually learned a lot from an MBA but you don't. This isn't like comparing math classes at West Bumphuck U and Harvard; these are MBA classes.
5 - This statement basically again says that an MBA from a top school is worthless.

Now my three points:
1 - You learn nothing from an MBA that you couldn't in a 1 week program.
2 - Those in the top 10 schools for MBAs earn more money, get better jobs, get promoted faster, learn from better teachers and share experiences with smarter students.
3 - Unless you're dying to work for some place that just requires an mba from your local grocery store, then an MBA from a school that isn't top isn't worth it. At that point you should analyze the costs and benefits - why would spending that much money on a worthless program where you learn little and work in a crud job be worth it?

-Rudey
--I'd like to buy an ipod with the money you're just throwing away please :)

Again - you are putting words in my mouth. I NEVER said that the Harvard grad has the advantage a lot of the time. I said, yes, he will have the advantage some of the time. The other guy will have the advantage some of the time. It just all depends on a number of things. And no, my last statement doesn't even imply that an ivy-league MBA is worthless. I don't know how you're getting that.

Also - it is not an absolute that those who graduate from the top 10 schools will earn more money, get the better job, get promoted faster, learn from better teachers and share experiences with smarter students. Yes, it is LIKELY that these things will happen, but it is not in any way a guarantee. So, what then do you think of the professors at these "lower" schools that have degrees from the top 10 schools? Are you saying that someone with a Harvard degree who teaches classes at Joe Blow U all of a sudden loses intelligence or credibility as soon as he accepts that teaching position? Someone is teaching those classes at the non-top 10 schools, and a lot of those people are these ivy-league grads of whom you speak.

All I am trying to point out is that it doesn't matter where you have your degree from as long as you have your degree. I haven't taken any MBA classes yet so as to your claim that you could learn it all in a 1-week program, I don't know, but somehow I doubt it. I just don't agree with your point that anything other than something from a top 10 school is worthless. You can't sit here and say that only ivy-league grads get the "non-crud jobs." You tell me to bring facts and figures but you haven't either.

My opinion on the three points...

1 - You learn nothing from an MBA that you couldn't in a 1 week program. Okay. This statement maybe be extreme. But I agree with the sentiment.
2 - Those in the top 10 schools for MBAs earn more money, get better jobs, get promoted faster, learn from better teachers and share experiences with smarter students. Not always, but yes this is the case for the majority of graduates.
3 - Unless you're dying to work for some place that just requires an mba from your local grocery store, then an MBA from a school that isn't top isn't worth it. At that point you should analyze the costs and benefits - why would spending that much money on a worthless program where you learn little and work in a crud job be worth it? NO! Dont' agree at all. Most MBA grads have been in the workforce, and go back for a reason. And having their MBA come from a top 10 school might be great. But a degree from another school is not worthless. In some business sectors this is the difference between a job that pays $50k and one that pays $100k. I realize this is not huge money. But I think the investment in the MBA would be worth it for these individuals. Also it depends on locality. SMU is not a top 10 school. But in Dallas, SMU is the equivalent to any top 10 school when it comes to networking and prestige. If I planned to stay in this area, that would be my top choice.

What has crawled up Rudey's butt and died? I view a Master's degree, in general, as a positive attribute to one's intelligence. A Master's degree is beneficial no matter what field of expertise you go into. The degree doesn't have to be a Master's in Genetic Engineering to be considered a Master's degree worth one's time. Hell, I can get a Master's in Basketweaving for all anyone on here cares. If I were an art major in undergrad, the Basketweaving Master's Degree (if there is one . . . I don't know) might just be beneficial. So I see an MBA degree beneficial to anyone who is going into any business-related career.

A Master's degree is impressive solely based on the fact that the candidates who enter into a Master's program had the good grades and self discipline to obtain this degree.

If you are competing against someone who has a Master's from Harvard and you have one from Clemson University, you are really comparing apples and oranges in the long run. In the long run, it won't matter what car you drove, how much your stocks amounted to, your bank account's wealth, the school you went to, or the job you held. You can't take any of that with you when your soul passes on. You might be able to be buried in the car but you won't be driving it in whatever afterlife you believe you'll be in after death.

Yes professors from good schools who teach at bad schools are on the whole less qualified and couldn't teach at a better school. Of course there is no absolute but nothing is and at the end of the day it's about about correlations and averages.

And I'll leave you with a couple average statistics:
HBS
-Avg GMAT: 708
-Cost of $78K
-Average financial aid of $45K
-Median starting base salary of $100K (not including bonus and bonuses without business school are usually at least 30K right out of college).
-Median signing bonus $20K (not yearly but signing only)
-Median other compensation $35K


University of Florida
-Avg GMAT: 650
-Cost of $10K to residents and $37K to non residents
-Average financial aid of $96
-Median starting base salary of $58K (not including bank)
-Median signing bonus of $5K

And here is a little bit on who was hired from Florida:
Top 15 recruiting firms that hired the most graduates in the past 12 months and the number of students hired:
Firm Graduates Hired
1. DHL 2
2. William R. Hough & Co. 2
3. Ernst & Young 2
4. Accenture 1
5. Blockbuster 1
6. Citibank 1
7. Cox Communications 1
8. Danka 1
9. General Electric 1
10. United Rentals 1
11. Dept. of Labor 1
12. BB&T

This shows just a bit of the difference in hiring after school and the costs. I don't feel like pulling stats on teachers, alumni, and other students there but obviously the higher test scores, income, and better jobs lend to the correlation that they are smarter at Harvard than at Florida.

Now the fact that an MBA is worthless on its own. The article below is just one of many examples:
Latest embodiment of inflated value:
an MBA 40-year analysis

Heather Sokoloff - National Post
Wednesday, July 03, 2002

A business degree does not guarantee a successful career or a higher salary, a Stanford University business professor concludes in an analysis of 40 years of research on the economic value of the MBA.

Little of what is taught to students in business school prepares them for the corporate workplace, said Jeffrey Pfeffer, an expert in organizational behaviour who has taught at elite U.S. business schools for 30 years.

Rather, students are paying for prestigious names to add to their résumés and the opportunity to network with like-minded colleagues, Dr. Pfeffer said.

MBA programs in the United States can cost more than US$100,000, while tuition at the best Canadian schools ranges between $7,000 and $48,000.

"The simplest advice is that if you don't get into a leading business school, the economic value of the degree is really quite limited," said Dr. Pfeffer, whose paper, co-written by a Stanford business student, will appear in the fall edition of the journal Academy of Management Learning and Education.

"Obviously, if you get admitted to Harvard or Stanford or another elite school, the very fact of your admission is going to increase your worth in the job market," he said. "But there is not much evidence the actual education does very much."

Employers who hire brand-name MBA graduates do so on the basis of the quality of the student body at those schools, not whether students have acquired specific skills or knowledge with their degrees, Dr. Pfeffer said. He found a student's employment prospects were unrelated to grades earned.

Dr. Pfeffer's research has raised the ire of business students, especially his own at Stanford, who say they are highly satisfied with their investment.

Fellow professors, on the other hand, have voiced little objection to the findings. "To be brutally honest, everyone knows this. This is not a big surprise," he said.

Dr. Pfeffer said he has long been skeptical of the value of an MBA. He became convinced after a group of consulting firms and investment banks did their own research comparing the performance of business school graduates to those trained in two- or three-week programs teaching new employees business basics.

The internal studies found the non-MBAs did no worse, and in some cases better, than their peers with a business degree. The studies also found more education did not result in higher salaries.

For example, a study of consultants at McKinsey & Company who had been on the job for one, three and seven years found that at all three points, employees without an MBA were as successful as those with one.

"You have to question what goes on in the two years it takes to get an MBA, if someone can virtually be equivalent in two or three weeks," Dr. Pfeffer said.

"What that suggests to me is that if you take a smart person, and give them a relatively short course, a mini-MBA, if you will, they basically do as well as the MBAs."

One of the problems, Dr. Pfeffer said, is that much of the business school curriculum has remained unchanged since the 1960s. He found little evidence that business school research is influential on management practices. Many of the theories and analytical techniques imparted by the institutions "can be readily learned and imitated, at least by intelligent people."

The U.S. schools have also become slaves to magazine rankings, leading them to develop coddling devices such as professor-written lesson summaries to bolster their "student satisfaction" appraisals.

"When students are relieved of any sense of responsibility for their learning ... they learn much less," said Dr. Pfeffer, who cautioned Canadian business schools against developing a similar obsession with rankings.

Dr. Pfeffer's findings echo a recent report from the Association to Advance Collegiate Schools of Business, the primary accrediting body in North America.

That report lambasted its members for maintaining a curriculum that is out of touch with modern business practices. "Preparation for the rapid pace of business cannot be obtained from textbooks and cases," the report said.

Still, Dr. Pfeffer said he doubts the criticism will discourage a record number of students in Canada and the United States from applying to business schools this year, giving the schools little reason to change.


-Rudey
--To each their own. I want an ipod though.

Dribble.

-Rudey
--My roommate sister's brother's friend wrote that.

I will sell my soul before I'll get an MBA, but let's look at it this way.

Two little boys graduate from Marquette's econ program. I use Marquette because we're no Chicago or Harvard or MIT, but we're better than an econ degree from State University at Middle of Nowhere. Bobby goes on to work for Northwestern Mutual and gets an MBA from University of Phoenix. Billy goes on to work for Northwestern Mutual but leaves to get an MBA from Harvard. Both of them come apply at my firm - I'd hire Billy over Bobby anyday. Why? Billy went to the classes, he met the people, he did projects with the leaders. Bobby logged onto his computer and wrote a few papers. Billy was taught by Captains of Industry, Bobby was taught by Joe Schmoe, a middle manager at Strong who teaches a few classes on the side.

If you want to get your degree from UofP or anywhere else, fine. Do that. I'm still going to respect a Harvard degree more, and so is anybody else who's worth their paycheck.

But you see, those figures you just spouted at all of us don't really strengthen your case. All it means is that students at Harvard have, on average, a higher GMAT score, which just means that they know how to take tests better (which we all know doesn't mean you're smarter). Also, it doesn't show us where those grads with the base salary of $100K are located geographically compared to the grads with the base salary of $58K...you have to figure in cost of living differences. Also, how many years of work experience does each grad have? They could receive a higher starting salary because they had more years experience before starting the MBA program.

And just because a professor from a "good school" teaches at a "bad school" doesn't mean it's because they couldn't get a job teaching at a better school. Maybe the school they're teaching at is in a location where they want to be located.

I'm sorry but, you still haven't convinced me. Let's beat this horse a little more. :D

You make no sense and good luck in whatever program you pursue.

-Rudey
--Thanks for playing.

I am thinking about getting an MBA, but I am only in the thinking phase. I actually agree with Rudey for the most part. My thinking if if I am going to spend about $80,000 for a degree, I want to go to the best school possible so I can get the best and highest paying job possible.

I already have an ipod. My boyfriend gave me one for Christmas last night. :)

Rudey, my sister dated a guy with an MBA from Columbia or NYU, I forget which. He works for McKinsey. I might have spelled that wrong. He bought a house in Larchmont and a BMW a few weeks after he got that job. Is that impressive?

I think this is the best point made so far, and it puts us back on topic. This really puts it in perspective.

Top 10 schools
 

Rudey,
Serious question. What are the Top 10 schools for MBA's? I was considering getting mine, but now I am doubting the worth a bit. I did decide that if I do go back, it will only be to a school with a prestigious reputation. Do you mind listing top schools and if possible, how they are ranked that way (US News and World reports, Princeton review, your professor went there and said so,-whatever)? I am sure that Yale, Harvard, Stanford and Brown are in the top. Also, are there any stae Universities-Georgia State University, UCLA, University of Michigan etc. that you would deem a decent school for that kind of program?
Thanks so much,
All that Glitters:)

Re: Top 10 schools
 

http://www.businessweek.com/bschools/03/geographic.htm Check out that link. You just have to fill out the info to register but its free.

Harvard and Stanford are great. Yale isn't that great actually. And I don't think Brown has a business school. It also depends what you want to do - Chicago and Wharton give you an incredible edge when it comes to finance. There are some better state business schools (Berkley for example) but honestly you won't get as many opportunities there as you would if you went to schools that were better. I think that lots of people have a shot at good programs if they work hard, work to get better jobs, study harder for the gmat's, get great recommendations. But honestly the odds are against you if you don't have above a 700 and were in marketing or at some accounting firm. You just have to work hard and you can do it.

And Cream, I hope for your sister that she married him. McKinsey is pretty much cream of the crop in consulting. It was founded by a professor from my school and I didn't get through second round interviews with them but every candidate I met was so damn impressive it was scary.

-Rudey

Glad I'm not the only one. :)