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That's just it! He could be catering to an image similiar to that of his wife...
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Babyface actually met his wife on the set of one of his video shoots. She was supposed to appear in the video as his love interest, but I think she got sick and was unable to take the job. So, women that look like her, (light skin, long hair) are definitely his preference.
------------------ "In three words I can sum up everything I've learned about life: It goes on." ~Robert Frost |
soror yes that's his type, which is fine http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif it seems to run in the family his nephew has the same look/type of young woman and when i kicked it when him and some of his buddies they were talking about women and dark sisters were definitely not the prefered type, its light, mixed and latino, of course i know more then just those types of women audition for the videos, but if he doesn't think they are cute enough then they don't get in and that is just how it goes. perhaps if more brothers would say hey man can we have some chocolate up in this piece then the videos would be more diverse, but i guess that is life to http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif perhaps the question is are dark skinned women percieved as less sexy and attrative then lighter skinned women and if so then why? Bruhs what do yall see and hear from your boys is light the more desired trait in a women and if so why? *grabs popcorn* he he
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PositivelyAKA, I see you. *lol*
I could go on and on about subjects like this. BUT, I had a 2 hour proficiency test in swimming and I'm tired so I will just through some things out there in random order. 1. Everyone has a right to their preference. It's impossible to get into someone psyche without knowing them well. 2. I read in an Ebony magazine survey that most men DON'T look at skin color when choosing a mate. However, after attending a mostly black college I'm not sure if that's the way I see it http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/rolleyes.gif. 3. Black people are not the only "folk" that watch videos. They choose women that will also be appealing to more than one ethnic group. 4. Hair is a big issue with black women, but it's almost as big with back men. Just ask any woman that cut off their hair and/or went natural (like me) http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif. Peace and Hair Grease! [This message has been edited by Poplife (edited January 11, 2001).] |
Okay, If it is a "family thang" Babyface's mother ISN'T "high yella" AT ALL! http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/eek.gif
So what is that all about? They may have some "issues"? |
There used to be an unwritten rule for Black video makers, that the love interest or centerpiece woman had to be noticably lighter than the man singing to her. When Donnie Simpson hosted Video Soul, they did a special on women in videos. They had a light skin honey(could have easily passed for caucasian) explaining about the hiring practices. She says that she only got the love interest or innocent woman roles but always got passed over for the hoochie or goldigger roles because they wanted the darker or more ghetto looking sisters for those roles. I guess light is Nieman Marcus and dark is KMART. Conversely, sistas, when have you ever seen a light-skinned black male hustler, drug-dealer, convict, thug, or otherwise negative character. It aint gonna happen. In this society, skin color or shade makes a difference in perception. BTW, I hate women to cut their hair, but I love chocolate sistas.
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DAYUM! http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif |
OK, I'm lookin' at Babyface's new video and I'm thinkin'.......
Does this Negro have a color complex or what!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I could be wrong, but has he ever had a dark skinned, or brown skinned for that matter, sistah in any of his videos? I could be wrong, but aren't all the women in his videos dang near white? I remember when he first made it big with "Whip Appeal", it was nothing but yellow women with long hair, and he hasn't changed in 10 years. Do you all agree or disagree? Just think about how Miss Tracy (his wife) looks!
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BTW, I hate women to cut their hair, but I love chocolate sistas.[/B][/QUOTE]
Bra, I have to disagree. We all have our preferences. But I happen to find women with short hair sexy az hell. I love sistas of all shades. It's just something that short hair. Maybe becuase I am bald. MN |
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BTW, I think that bald men are sexy too! http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif [This message has been edited by Mz. Sports Luva (edited January 12, 2001).] |
Ok, I am one of those sistahs who is constantly changing her hair. I used to go from shoulder length to Toni B short. It's long now, but I'm getting braids to go natural. Honestly, I've never noticed a change in the reactions of men, either way. I will say that people (men and women alike) always question why I would cut such "long, pretty" hair. Ok, my hair was never down my back, so really it wasn't that long!!! And it's still pretty when it's short. As long as it's healthy and clean, what difference does it make?
As far as complexion, I don't know why it surprises me that it's still an issue, but it does sometimes. What trips me out is how they talk about how light-skinned complected people aren't "in" anymore, but I cain't tell!! Well, at least as far as sistahs are concerned. Chocolate men are definitely in! But dark sistahs still are not. Unless it's by a white owned company. Example, Coca-Cola. Tommy Hilfiger. Peep some of these ads. Have yall noticed that they get the DARKEST most ethnic looking people that they can find? Always with either locs or a short natural 'do? And I'm not complaining about that, I'm happy the brotha's and sistahs got jobs. I'm just saying. Can we get to a happy medium. I think that when advertisers do stuff like that it's to seriously get our attention. Like, "LOOK, WE HAVE SOME NEGROES FOR YALL! LOOK! WE ARE MARKETING TO YOU, TOO! WE ARE NOT RACIST! LOOK!" If they used a light-skinned brotha or sistah, we might not notice him/her as much, be we aren't gonna miss the dark skinned ones. |
Hey Everybody:
Yes. Sad as it is, we still have a color complex in this society. I read an article recently in Savoy (used to be Emerge Magazine) and the sistah on the front was saying that when she auditions for roles, there is a very obvious difference in the "talent" that is selected for certain roles. If it is an educated, professionsl, upwardly mobile female role, EVERYONE auditioning is light skinned with long, straight/curly hair., thin frame, etc. If the role is for a single mom (which she has auditioned for) EXACT opposite. Darker skinned, more coarse hair, thicker body, etc. That's the what society sees it. We are one of the few races that truly somes in all sizes, shapes, shades, hair textures, eye colors, etc. Unfortunately, we have been brainwashed to belief that lighter is better, too. On the hair issue. I have VERY LITTLE. Pretty much bald. My man LOVES it. He is from the south where he says people would look at me like "Okay?" He's never dated a woman with short hair although, because he went to school in Atlanta, he was used to seeing sistahs sport a number of styles. Men CONSTANTLY ask me if they can rub my head. Usually I oblige (I love the attention) but I got in trouble a few times, because the Bruhs go absolutely WILD with it. He's an Alpha so he had issues. Another story. I think it's all in how you sport your look. I cannot have longer hair that takes a lot of maintenance right now. I work out every single day, teach aerobics, and SPIN, running LA Marathon, etc. I can't be worried about my hair that I just spent $150.00 getting whipped. Hair is the NUMBER ONE reason black women give for NOT working out. I ain't havin' it. Poplife, I feel you on the "you had such pretty hair." issue. My family CONSTANTLY reminds me that my hair used to be down my back and so pretty (WHATEVER). But then I had locs for 6 years, so now the family thinks this is better, but still not as "pretty" as it used to be. [This message has been edited by DELTABRAT (edited January 12, 2001).] [This message has been edited by DELTABRAT (edited January 12, 2001).] |
I agree with Poplife I man's preference is just that his preference. I don't think that the videos are making any type of statement about beauty, ie whether or not light is sexy and dark is not. But I do think that these performers should show the whole spectrum of our beauty not just the lighter side. And as a light skinned woman I take pride in the fact that beauty in the black race is not just hammered down to just one model. Beauty is caramel, mocha, chocalate, dark chocolate it is every shade of beauty that black comes in that makes us as a whole beautiful.
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People really are brainwashed sometimes. I love all shades of men. I've dated them from the color of cream to the color of slow-cooked molasses. But I am not color blind--I see every ounce of their color, and I revel in whatever color and hair texture they bring to the table--along with their intelligence and of course, their sexiness http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif. I thank God I didn't become, by family or media, color-struck--think of all the FINE men I would have passed up as a result. http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif By the way, I guess I must be "Indian and Black", LOL (remember how if you were light-skinned and had long hair, you were mixed with black and white, and if you were brown-skinned with long hair, you must be mixed black and Indian?). ------------------ Finer Womanhood: the "Cat's Meow" Since 1920 |
Perhaps some people misunderstood me or that I did not make myself clear. As far as hair is concerned, if I meet you and you have long pretty hair, leave it that way. If you had a short, pretty, hairstyle that complements or accentuates your facial features, I'm fine with that. I loved the short hair Toni Braxton. However, I do not like women with mannish styles or cuts that make them look like boys. I am not hung up either way. Complexion doesn't matter either. I like them all, but a tall, chocolate with a nice booty will get my attention every time. " Hey Shawty, whatcho name is gul" lol. MANDINGONUPE: I am in that tall, dark, and bald category also. You cool with me. BTW: as another observation, in the movie and on the TV show Soul Food, why is smart and successful sister the lightskin one? Why is the smart articulate male love interest the noticably lighter brother and the hood (Lem) dark-skin. Television or the media may not create our perceptions of ourselves, but they damn sure reinforce them.
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Style, I'm not trying to put you on the spot or use you as an "example", but I would like to ask you something... If a women chooses to cut off her long hair, what do you have to do with it?If she feels the need for a change, if she's with you or not, it's her right. Just because she looked one way when you started dating doesn't mean she is obligated to stay that way. I'm always changing up on my significant others. Everyone reserves their right to comment on what I do, but I'd never say to myself "I better not cut it because John would have a fit. He loves my long hair...that's how I looked when we met." Sadly, alot of women do think like that. It's something that both sexes should think about. I'm with Ideal08 when she said Quote:
Lately I have been asking myself...what is "pretty" anyway? I think the rays of light spiriling from my head are beautiful. I used to have hair a little past my bra strap, so I've done the long haired thing. I first cut my hair off when I was 12 cuz I got tired of it. My mom is STILL mad at me. It's like people petrified to go against the "ideal". I for one am sick of it. Side note: www.endarkenment.com is a site designed to raise black awareness. I found it two days ago and I can't stop reading it. Check it out. |
I am truly not swayed by what the media, ad people, performers and such try to pigeon-hole as the 'in' shade! I think it's pretty dayum pathetic that they can somehow attempt to dictate what it is I should or should not find attractive. For those men that are only attacted to a certain shade sister--it's all good, cuz there's another brotha waiting behind him who can't get enough of it!
By sight, I am attractive to men of all shades; however, I have a penchant for chocolate men. But that's what makes ME excited. The media will never be able to send me subliminal messages about my worth measured in shades of skin color. On a side note, about the hair thing. I had a lil bit below the shoulder length hair. Very 'healthy and clean'! http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif I found it liberating to cut it all off and go natural. I cut it down to almost bald, died it, twisted/coiled it. I did whatever I wanted to with it. For the most part, the men were totally intrigued by it and constantly wanted to touch it. But I did get, what I found to be, ignorant a$$ comments about why did you cut all that pretty hair out! http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/rolleyes.gif Bump that, it's all about me and what makes me happy! [This message has been edited by jazbri (edited January 12, 2001).] [This message has been edited by jazbri (edited January 12, 2001).] |
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Ok? And? People like to touch my hair too. Sometimes it gets on my nerves, but sometimes it brings about interesting convo with interesting people. |
POPLIFE: I have plenty of Black Enlightenment and have enough self awareness to KNOW WHOM and WHAT I am. I see sistas such as your self and others cutting your hair as a sign of rebellion against a perceived preference for longer hair because its seen as so-called "good" or more like "white". I read why Jill Scott wears her hair "natural" and not "oppressed" as it was when she used to relax and style it. Hey, if your hair symbolizes your "Blackness" or your freedom from society"s definitions, more power to you. If my lady decided to cut off her crown of glory for a buzz cut or short afro, she doesn't want me for her man anymore. A statement against how I like you when I first met you, is a statement against me. If you are going through some Afro-centric, feminist, liberation type thing, then you are no longer the woman that I fell for. If your hair has become a political statement or some new manifestation of insight into your inner-self, then I have to roll, because that means that you have issues and you are bound to be going through more "changes" trying to find or getting to know the "real you" Have fun finding yourself. Call me when the journey is over. We all have to be true to self. If you need to cut you hair to feel better, then by all means, do so. Long is no better than short, nappy no better than curly, but leave politics out of the hair. You can be Afro-centric with styled hair or long hair if thats what God gave you. BTW: white men don't like their women to make radical changes to their hair either. All the white guys I know hate Faith Hill's new short hairstyle.
P.S. just so you know, I'm very Afro-centric, but I don't need musical selections, dietary changes, change in religious affiliation, or fashion statements (hairstyles, nose rings, khufis, headwraps, dhishikis) to prove it. |
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Let's take this one step further. What if your woman put on 25 lbs? Would you leave her because she is not longer the slim, trim woman you fell in love with? Please don't take this as a personal attack. I am just curious. ------------------ "In three words I can sum up everything I've learned about life: It goes on." ~Robert Frost |
Such a long post and none of your points had anything to do with me.
Like I said before, I cut my long hair because I was tired of long hair and wanted a change. I was 12. I didn't know anything about long hair, short hair, good hair, bad hair, or black hair politics. All I knew was that I wanted to change. My friend had a short bob and it was cute, so I go one too. It really wasn't that deep. I had no idea what I was getting into when I went natural. All I knew was that it was perms too expensive, too painful, and to damaging for me. So I did the logical thing: I STOPPED. Quote:
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That goes back to my original question. If your girlfriend has long hair and she decided she wants a Jada or a Halle because it's too fly not to try, then who are you to tell her otherwise? It's hers! And what if she opts for a short afro for the same reasons I stopped perming or because she wants to "rebel"? If you leave her even though she is the same inside that shows that your love is conditional. Quote:
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I know I'm not with the majority in this one but...I kinda feel what the man is saying. I can understand what he means about radical changes and going find yourself..Blah, blah , blah....
POPLIFE ..here's a question for you. How many times have you questioned the choice YOU made about the hair YOU feel so strongly about? I'm just curious. This has been quite a touchy subject these days. |
MIDWESTDIVA and POPLIFE:
I never said anything about outer beauty being better than inner beauty. If the woman I were attracted to radically altered her look to one that I did not prefer. I'm not being superficial. If you met me and liked me because of my business/ business casual style and short wavy hair, you would be upset if I grew Rasta style locks and nappy chin beard. If you said, "honey, I don't like that look, I preferred you in the manner in which I met you". Is that superficial or a legitimate. Of course, if there were some "real or legitimate" reason for the change, it would not bother me. Also, I did not say that I preferred long or short hair. Just that I wasn't into radical changes, especially those made for "statement" purposes. Weight gain is natural with child birth, and if you are the mother of my child, my love is endless and without prejudice, but if your gaining two or three dress sizes because I'm treating you to some nice restauraunts, somebody going to Jenny Craig. POPLIFE:My suppositions were stricty from the tone and information in your post. I don't know many girls who cut their own hair at age 12, nor did you mention that you permed your hair or about imitating a friend. That is a whole lot of new info. You gave the inference that your hair was naturally long and so-called "good". Thats why everyone was complimenting it. You never mentioned that your "long, good hair" was impractical, so my assumption was that you were being Afrocentric by the tone of your post. I never assumed that short equaled manly. I know plenty of women with nice, un-permed hairstyles. Twists look great on some women. I love Jada and Halle and Toni. My point being, that is how I came to love them, with their hair already short (no radical changes) Again as with MidwestDiva, the question of who am I to tell her what to do with her hair? Nobody, I guess according to you. If I can't be consulted and asked my opinion on such a radical change, then I don't need to be with ya. Just as if you were short and natural and then shoewd up with a foot of weave. That aint the girl I fell in love with. My love is unconditional, what I like isn't. My statement about white men referred to your statement about "why is long, pretty hair so coveted in our race". I was just giving you an example of how others have the same emphasis on not wanting their women to cut their hair. Hair is coveted in every culture. In most cultures, the cutting of a females hair is taboo and only to be done as a sign of morning or great personal shame. No I don't know you. I didn't say that you did any of those things. I didn't assume anything about you other than you cut your hair to make a statement. That was from the post before you explained yourself in detail. Love, peace, and hair grease. Or to be politically correct, should that be carrot oil? |
Style,
I guess I really didn't see a reason to go into extreme detail about my hair incident. I forget that you all weren't there and you didn't know the circumstances. I'm glad that we're on the same plane now. As far as radical changes: In a way I understand what you're talking about. I have changed and I have been changed on. How do I "cope"?? Learn to love it. If I truly care about that person and THEY like they way I look then what else can I do? Leave? I think not. The man I was dating at the time got used to my natural and I'd do the same for him. Doggy, I just cannot feel you when you said that you need to be "consulted" before a drastic changed...yeah I'll warn ya...*lol*. I also wonder about the idea that because someone drastically changes their style they are no longer the girl you come to know. On the OUTSIDE, yes, but 9 times out of 10 the heart and mind are still the same. So when you say they're no longer the girl you feel in love with...did you fall in love with the way they look or the way they are? |
I was reading the responses and I want to state a point I read in article about JAY-Z. A lot of times, artists do not pick the ladies that are featured in their videos. The producer, director or other members of their staff round up some girls and tell them to choose. It is sad, but most of the time, these folks are not African American and their views of us are different. Now, if you really want to talk about different views, I live in England and you will rarely see a 100 percent African-American, Latino, Greecian or any other type of couple here. To say the least, I trust my husband, but I have also tightened up where I may have been lacking. I go to the club and the British women swarm what we would not even look at in a hundred years, but they also get some of the good ones. I beieve everyone is entitled to their own preference, I know there are brothers I would not date. However, I hate to see anyone get taken or to hear they do not date black women because we require too much or are high maintenance. To each his own, but there are ignorant folks in this world, but we are here to give them a clue.
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I question it every time I discuss hair politics with someone, even if they feel they way I do. I love challenging my beliefs. I find that simple action alone is responsible for much of my mental and spiritual growth. It's interesting how you emphasize the word "you". I notice that a lot of women don't really make the choice to get a relaxer because their mama's or grandmama's or aunties make that choice for them when they are too young to decided. I believe was 7 when my mom first permed my hair. She says it was 9, but I've seen pictures!!! *lol*. But on a serious note, I don't think it was fair to me because I didn't get a chance to learn how to do my hair in it's God-given state. When I was 15 or 16 the idea of not having a perm was actually SCARY and I was trapped into perming by the fear that I would look a mess if I didn't keep getting relaxed. When my hair was in the middle stages I wanted to perm it sooo bad because I just wasn't used to it. I tried to judge how my new hair was going to look by the little bit of new growth I was seeing. Surprisingly, my hair texture is totally different now than it was when I first started growing out the perm. It went from nappy, to afro-ish, to wavy, to curly all within 1.5 years. I feel so strongly about my hair because (a) it's all me...no "tricks" to make it look a certain way, and (b) it's the way I truly want it, not the way my MOTHER, SOCIETY, or ANYONE ELSE think it should be. I feel free. But if you had told me that I was going to be chemical free when I was in high school I would have laughed at you and swung my hair right in your face. *lol* Life is funny like that. [This message has been edited by Poplife (edited January 14, 2001).] |
I find it interesting that is this forum and in other discussions I've observed about this subject, women always reference the exact length of their hair when telling their I-cut-it-all-off-to-show-I'm-not-oppressed story. By doing that, it shows that even the enlightened (take a pun if you will) among us have some miles to walk before being over this hair/color thing, IMO. I mean, WHY does it matter that it was "down my back" or "slightly below my bra strap"? Geeeesshhhhhh!
AND, before you jump on me, I've done all the hair permutations too. I ain't tellin' ya how "pretty/long" is is/was, neither! http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif |
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It's OTHERS that always want to remind me that I have short natural hair. That's not the first thing I see when I look in the mirror regardless of how I sound on this board. |
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------------------ Finer Womanhood: the "Cat's Meow" Since 1920 |
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"GO BACK" go back where? ROTFLMAO! |
DG Sytl,
I am in agreement with you bra. The funny part about this, is that the producers of Soul Food are Black. I don't know why we continue to view our beauty through the lenses that were created by and for White America. I think that we all can agree that we love our brothers and sisters of all shades, and some of us do have preferences. I love women, so I really don't care. Light, dark, brown, damn near white, who cares. If I see a Green woman, who is cute, I am going to holler. Ok, you can laugh if you want, but when you see me on the cover of Jet with my Green woman, just remeber what I said. MN |
[QUOTE]Originally posted by DoggyStyle82:
...Conversely, sistas, when have you ever seen a light-skinned black male hustler, drug-dealer, convict, thug, or otherwise negative character. It aint gonna happen. You had me thinking there for a moment. Here goes: Allen Payne & Christopher Williams(New Jack City) & LL Cool J (In Too Deep - even though LL is not that light), & Ice-T (New York Undercover). I also see many dark skinned brothas playing positive roles: Westly Snipes, Morris Chestnut, Omar Epps, Taye Diggs and Brown to Dark-skinned sistas: Nia Long, Tyra Banks, ***whatever the chic's name is that played in Blade***, Angela Bassett. ------------------ "Things that make you go hmmmmm..." -Arsenio Hall [This message has been edited by tickledpink (edited January 17, 2001).] |
Another interesting topic.
Call me jaded, but I PREFER women who has long hair. I just think it is a subtle symbol of femininity. HOWEVER *in my best Art Fleming (Jeopardy!) voice*, I have also dated and/or gone goo-goo-eyed for sistas with short hair (Halle Berry style or au naturel). I have also dated a woman who had these short dredlocks that IMHO was rather cute. She was fine in body, spirit, and mind. In short, though I have preferences, I don't allow that to rule out those who happen to deviate. Now for these sistas who are sporting the now-faddish short-n-natural hairdos. I say this out of pure comedy only: I am a bit skeptical about being intimate with one of these sistas. I am afraid that in the heat of passion when I look at her I might panic, because I'll think for a moment I was messin' with a dude. One sista I see frequently at First Fridays is a prime example. FINE lookin' sista, she just has one of them super-short fades like a man's. I have always wanted to holla at her, but when I see that hairdo, I chicken out. I don't want no "surprises", knowwhatImsayin'? As far as my hair, taking another twist on this thread, I am (once again) going to get it straightened. I like my hair straight and semi-long (hair touching the back of the collar). Most folx think I am going to resemble Al Sharpton or James Brown, but I actually look East Indian--a woman on the street stopped me and actually asked me this. Currently, it is in a TWA (teeny weeny afro). I gotta try it again. Anyway that's my $.25 |
Actually I kind of feel you on the manly hair style thing. It's cute on alot of women but I like my hair semi-short (never past my chin). I myself can't get with black man that has a process because in the heat of passion I might get confused.
"Am I with Susy or Sam? Dang!" Men that have naturally straight hair is a different story. |
Yes we all have preferences and there is nothing wrong with that, but if short hair on a woman is going to make you question on whether or not you are with a man or woman, than you have additional issues that go far beyond hair. Personally I have a short natural hair cut and men love it, I get play all the time. I was told that it shows confidence. Not to mention that men find it very sexy. And beleive me if you are with me sexually or any other way, there would be no doubt that I'm 100% woman.
But again there is nothing wrong with having a preference, because I really don't think I'm feeling the whole processed, greasy, my momma just pressed my hair look. Just my $.13 cents worth Quote:
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I am sure that your short hair looks VERY good on you. Matter of fact, I am SO confident of that (HOW CONFIDENT AM I??!!), that in regards to your 100% woman remark, I'll take that as a personal invitation to holla at you http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif *LOL* cause I am ALL MAN, all 5 ft 6 inches, and 155 pounds of me. *LOL some more* http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif Rain Man |
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Did we all forget the original pimp, playa, balla, etc. Mr. Mack. He was the lightest pimp and the first pimp I ever knew. And what is up with this? 3. Black people are not the only "folk" that watch videos. They choose women that will also be appealing to more than one ethnic group. This maybe true, and if so it speaks a great deal about how the rest of the country feels about dark-skinned women (they are not appealing), and how some of us can easily accept it and use it as part of their argument in support of the behavior. It's time to stop taking the media so personally. They don't know what we want unless we tune in. STOP WATCHING!!! I assure you that if we stopped watching those shows and stopped buying those products that are only advertised when they feel millions of negros will be watching, the media would be singing another tune. |
many white men and asian men find dark skinned women appealing and sexy, however it is often detremental to their careers and family life to pursue black women in general because of ridicule and plain hatred that would be attached to them as a result. most black families don't disown their kids for marrying outside the race, but it happens alot the other way around, therefore many white men/asian men sneak, peep and long for the black woman because she is what they feel they can never have at least not with peace in this country. and unlike some of our men they are not willing to lose it all to taste the forbidden fruit, shoot an orange is an orange http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif ie. women are women.
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