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Sell Out???
I was just wondering if I am wrong for thinking that Blacks who are Republicans or Blacks who join white sororities and fraternities are some how selling out to the black race?? I was reading a past post on Condoleeza Rice and Collin Powell and remembered what I read in Lawrence Graham's Book "Our Kind of People". I remember him stating in the last chapter that one of the sure ways for blacks to pass as whites is to become a Republican and join white groups and their ideas. Basically, anything that dosen't concern blacks...do it! Also I just read a post that stated Condoleeza Rice is also a member of a white sorority, Alpha Chi Omega. After reading that, I really started wondering about her views as a black woman. What do you think? Am I looking too deep into this or is there some validity to my thought's? Are blacks that join the Republican Party and other white social groups (sororities and fraterniteis) considered to be sell outs?
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I don't know about "sell outs", but I do know a person whom I work with feels that joining organizations for "blacks" will not "do ANYTHING" for her! Prior to this "realization", she was a member of many professional organizations which catered to blacks. Also, she wore her hair in a natural, then "realized" that it would be better to wear a perm/texturizer....Also, she was once a member of a "FULL GOSPEL" church, then became a Catholic...
NO OFFENSE TO ANY... Her ideology basically, "white is right" http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/eek.gif She and Condoleeza could probably be "bosom buddies" http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif |
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Since when is Blackness defined by political beliefs or greek letter affiliation? ------------------ "There is only one religion, though there are a hundred versions of it." ~George Bernard Shaw [This message has been edited by MIDWESTDIVA (edited January 23, 2001).] |
I gotta ask, if that is true, does the fact that I am an Alpha Phi Omega (as opposed to, say, Alpha Phi Alpha) makes me a sell-out? Does the fact that I chose to live in the 'burbs as opposed to the 'hood make me a sell-out? Does the fact that I voted for Howard Phillips for president make me a sell-out? Does the fact that I believe there are some white people in the world that have treated me better than some black people make me a sell-out? What makes a sell-out??
Rain Man |
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If you feel that in order to advance yourself, your position in life, or feel better about yourself you must turn your bakc on your race, you are a sell-out. The word does NOT only apply to Black people, as people of all races have sell-outs. Question: Why would you feel the need to ask? Are you second-guessing your choices in life? |
Good point Straight BOS and Good question Sunshine 14,
Still, "Selling Out" has a far greater impact on the black race than it does on the white race. The emphasis should not be placed so much on how we do, but on what we do. You can be a BAPTIST, a member of a black frat/sorority, live in the ghetto, Democrat, etc... and still "Sell Out". In my opinion, it's all about being true to yourself, your family, your heritage, and your race. Pledge what you want to pledge. Vote how you want to vote. Pray how you want to pray. Live where you want to live. Just don't ever forget who we are as a people and the struggles that our BLACK ancestors had to go through to get us where we are today. If how you live your life does not compliment, in ANY way, the past and present struggles that blacks often go through, THEN YOU ARE A SELL OUT. http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/redface.gif In my opinion, of course... http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/rolleyes.gif (I gotta watch myself, people are sensitive up in this camp...) [This message has been edited by Bobby Earl (edited January 23, 2001).] [This message has been edited by Bobby Earl (edited January 23, 2001).] |
This is a tough topic but I'll give it my best shot.
In the past most, if not all, blacks were fighting for the same thing, equal rights. Whether you were rich or poor, you didn't have the same rights as whites. Now that we are equal(i know that is subject to debate) there doesn't seem to be a common struggle for our people. Those that feel successful may feel like "what struggle http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/cool.gif"? . Those that haven't achieved the American Dream are left looking for leadership that doesn't exist. Class seems to be just as much of a divider as race. As far as joining a WGLO....People will go where they feel most comfortable, maybe Condoleeza wasn't accepted by her African American peers. I have seen it a thousand times. I wouldn't consider it "selling out" unless someone does something detrimental to their own race to gain acceptance/advancement among another race. Since when do we have to think the same way because we are of the same race? [This message has been edited by spankee (edited January 23, 2001).] |
I'm not saying that Blackness should be defined with what political party you're in but lets be real, the democratic party does the most for minorities in general. As for Republicans, they are conservatives which in my dictionary means "not for change, keeping things as they are" I guess it just kinda amazes me that some people are more comfortable or cater to those who I would think share very dissimilar views. But I'm human and I could be wrong. As for you Rain Man you have totally gone off on a tangent and missed my point all together. Re-read the original post! It's just kinda wierd that she grew up in segrgated B'ham attended the historical 16th St Baptist church and went off to college and felt a stronger bond with whites. I just hope that she doesn't turn out to be another Clarence Thomas. As far as Colin Powell, I honestly believe he's staright. He's proven himself as a strong leader for not only minorities but America as a whole!
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Historically, BLACKS/AFRICAN AMERICANS, or whatever label you want to use, have been the most ACCEPTING people on the planet! So what is that all about? http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/confused.gif Maybe Condoleeza et.al. have been soooooo removed from the "experience" that she could not "relate" to the plight of the community and the BGLOs... In my opinion, of course...It's just a thought... http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif |
IMHO, selling out is not WHAT you do, it is WHY you do it.
I attended Johns Hopkins because they gave me a full scholarship and Spelman didn't; not because I perceived it as 'better'. Yet I had some Black classmates (who shall remain nameless) who were so 'integrated' that if you told them they were Black, they would have looked at you like you were speaking Greek (pun intended?) and then would have thrown a hissy-fit about not 'labeling', 'why can't I be just a person, not a Black person', yada-yada-yada. If you asked them to name ONE HBCU, they couldn't. To me, THAT is selling out. ------------------ MCCOYRED Dynamic Salient Temperate Mu Psi '86 BaltCo Alumnae |
While I do agree that we are an accepting people, I believe that we are far less accepting of our own whos views stray away from mainstream African American views.
If Condolezza Rice wants to join a white sorr. If she wants to go to thier churches, whatever, that's on her. I really don't care. We spend way too much time demonizing each other, becuase we have different viewpoints. Black is a state of being, not a philosopy, or an ideology. Either you are black or you are not (Period) Nothing that she does can change the fact that she is black, and I don't recall hearing her say that she was anything other than a proud African American. Regardless of her views. As far as being a "sell-out" or a "Tom" whatever term that is used. I try my best not to use it. I don't agree with everything that the democrats do or think. But I vote Democratic because they tend to be with me on most of the issues. But if I find a Republican who shares my views I am going to vote for him/her, and F^&K what anyone thinks. Rainman, why should you even ask anyone for validation? Validate yourself. If I want to move to the burbs, then I will move to the burbs. If you don't pay my rent, then you have no say on where or how I live. The realy sad part is that I believe we have been so brainwashed that we fail sometimes to look at things through our own eyes, and not through the lenses of what our current "Black Leadership" thinks. I got mad luv for Jesse and the other "Media/Self" appointed black leadership, but I believe that they tend to speak for a smaller population than they use to. Sunshine14, No one can tell you how to view these people. I personally believe in live and let live. I can disagree with my brothers and sisters who are in the Republican Party on issues. I don't have to resort to calling folks names. That's childish, and I am far from childhood. MN "Many are called, few are chosen, and some just get knocked the f$%* out" |
Being conservative in and of itself does not make someone a sell-out.. You know who I consider sell-outs?
Those African-American men and women who sell drugs in our communities Those professional athletes/entertainers/business people who are making PHAT $$$ who do absolutely nothing to give back to the community. Black folks who feel like if they speak to the (usually Black) custodial worker in the office then their white co-workers will realize http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/eek.gif that they are black too!! Those Black folks who think the white man's ice is colder! Black entertainers who feel absolutely no responsibility for the filth that they put on TV/in records, but are all about the bling-bling! Mothers or Fathers who abuse/neglect/don't support their black children Black business owners who sell inferior products at inflated prices then EXPECT you to support them! ALL SELL_OUTS!!! Just because a person has idealogical differences does not mean that they are sell outs. Example: some blacks do not believe in afirmative action. They believe that the best way for blacks to reach equality in this society is for them (us) to delay gratification, open our own businesses, take advantage of SMB loans, etc. Now I don't necessarily think that someone who believes that, no matter how misguided I think they are, is a sell-out |
In todays society, blacks folks are confused. There are so many divides. Even on this forum we still debate over natural or perm, and wether or not you buy black owned products. While these are relevent debates, time could be put to better use thinking of ways to keep our children safe, healthy, educated and fed, then we can work on the inner healing of our people. We are in desperate need of unity. Therefore, when I see people in possitions of power who chose to use that power to negate the struggles of our ancestors (some of which whom are still living), I find it offensive. This includes, but is not limited to: people against affirmative action without any other suggested replacements, people who join organizations that do nothing to aid our communities, people who sell drugs on the corner to their own families, people who use those drugs sold on the corner by their own families, and the list goes on. Nonetheless, I can't call them sell outs, they are just confused.
My last comment is this. It is fine to have your own opinion and not think like the masses, but just as it is in any family, we may not agree but come to us first with your concerns. Let's talk about them and make compromises. Let's not be so quick to run to outsiders for their opinions on our family problems. |
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StraightBOS: I am NOT second-guessing ANY choice in my life - I worked hard to get where I am and I will be glad to empower those interested in doing the same things to acheive similar goals, Black or White. I am VERY proud of the fruits of my labor and make no regrets for it. Good lookin' out, MN. You're right, I need no validation from anyone; I was just being hypothetical in my questioning. Gotta get to class. RM |
Look!! 1st off this is a chat forum which makes it a place to raise debateable issues and express different view points. It is quite obvious Rainman that this shoe fits your foot perfectly. Again, I did not direct anything to you. But it seems as though you've gotten your feelings hurt over an issue that obviously concerns you. I don't know you and I honestly don't care where you live and who you associate with. I merely asked a debateable question about Condoleeza Rice's affiliations. I still wonder about her views as a black woman considering these affiliations. It may not be hard for you to relate since you seem to fit the mold but it is for me. I never called you a sell out, hell I don't even know you. I guess you've been called that before the reason you're taking this so seriously! I never called anyone a sell out I merely asked a question to get other EDUCATED views not to throw stones and argue back and forth about insecurities! If she chooses to have these affiliations so be it, more power to her, and for the record I never called her a name!! I simply raised a question!
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I agree with Mandingo Nupe, and ECLIPSE and somewhat with RAIN MAN. No one has to be culturally Black. I disagree with MN on this though. Being black is more than a racial composition. It is a state of mind, being, and culture. We all have varying degrees of "cultural blackness" be it rural southern to urban ghetto to upwardly mobile to 2nd generation college educated to suburban to little or no contact with other "cultural" Black folks. Have you ever met "physically" Black people who have no concept of Black culture? Who can not interact with other Blacks because they have no cultural connection, frame of reference, or similar life experience. I often forget that there were two other Black seniors in my graduating class of 110 (there were 5 black students). They had nothing in common with the three of us. They grew up with all whites, attended all white schools, churches, orgs, etc. I never considered them sell-outs although everything about them was "white" (speech pattern, hairstyle, dress, carriage) They never even spoke to other Black students or joined the Black Student Group. Some people just don't care to be Black (in the cultural sense) and some just aren't born into it and some are Uncle Toms. Yes Clarence Thomas is an Uncle Tom and so is Ward Connerly. If you make it difficult for other Blacks to feed ,clothe, educate, employ, or otherwise better themselves as you have, then you are an Uncle Tom, regardless of political or social affiliations, or if you down Black folks to make yourself look good to white benefactors or audience, you are a Tom (Larry Elder and his ilk). I don't think Rice and Powell fall into those categories
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Back to the issue at hand, thanks for all of the EDUCATED responses. Eclipse I couldn't agree with you more. These people are in no way contributing to society if anything they are what's hurting us. I really wish that people in high positions would do more positive things within our communities. I hope Condoleeza Rice along with other Blacks in high postions take the leadership roles needed in our communities to help make a difference for the better!
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I chose to respond to the question by respondind to you. I have read the above responses, and I agree with a little bit of each. When I think of sellouts, I think of the Apartheid struggle in South Africa, and how they handled sellouts. I wish we had the nerve to do the same; maybe the other races in America would then respect us. I'm surprised some people here mentioned drug dealers as sellouts. I mentioned something to that effect in October, and got all but 5 responses to it. For the typical black family in America, the drug dealer is the sellout closest to us. We all know someone on crack; and that's why I say that. On the opposite side of that spectrum, we all know Clarence Thomas. The sellouts in between have been defined/exposed by the above respondents; and in my opinion, you in particular. Good answers, yall; and you in particular Eclipse. |
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Anyway, peeked my head in to say Great topic, I have opinions, but I also have a class to train this week ...too busy, you guys continue ...this is getting good!! |
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The following is a question not a statement!! Do you think that was negligence on their part? How can you be black and never pick up a book and read about the struggles of your people? Im not asking you to assume the characteristics of "being black", but the least you could do is be aware, if for nothing else than to make sure you're never a part of the problem. |
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I don't think by joining a white greek organization or a certain political party makes one a "sell-out." We are are *NOT*a homogenous group of people who think, believe, act, or behave the same. It's interesting, many white people believe that by the majority of us voting Democractic makes us racist somehow, but that's another topic. Good question. [This message has been edited by Talaxe (edited January 24, 2001).] |
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*sound of screeching brakes accompanied by a crashing sound*. Advance to Level 6 (Whew thang) I answered your initial question with "What difference does it make?", but let me revise that so as to not answer a question with a question: "Condoleezza Rice's political and sorority affiliation should have nothing to do with how black she is, and therefore should not play a role." That is my EDUCATED ANSWER!!!!! As far as whether you or anyone else think I am a sell-out, I personally don't care. As long as I don't sell out on the Kingdom of God, I am okay with myself AFAIC. I was also responding to posts from StraightBOS and Mandingo Nupe so not all of the post was directed to you. Maybe I should have made three separate posts, but time was short, so I responded to one post. I apologize if I confused you to that effect. As far as all that other stuff you was ranting and raving about, well, all I can say is "whatever". Please select a dollar amount from Level 6 RM |
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If you are unaware that the playing field is uneven in an unfavorable position for blacks, how CAN you know that abolishing affirmative action is not the answer? You dont have to march with me, but at least don't be on the other side throwing rocks claiming you didn't know. I don't think that's too much to ask. |
I just wanted to say that nothing is more stimulating than good conversation with my people,(well almost nothing). But really, I am glad that we can discuss and disagree on issues that pertain to our community.
Though we all have our own various opinions, and we do disagree (sometimes kinda heatedly),we still maintain respect and love for that person and their viewpoint. I love U guys man!!! Big group hug. MN P.S. If anyone is coming to DC for the NBA All-stars, hit a brother up. |
This is an excellent topic. I have to applaud those who made the connection that drug dealers are selling out our communities. Along the same lines, I would define a sell-out (in the broad sense) as someone who is not living up to their potential, whether it be by engaging in illegal stuff like being a drug dealer, or just being a plain, ordinary slacker. People who do that are cheating themselves, their families, and their communities out of experiencing life to its fullest.
So...I would have to say CR and CP are not sell-outs. They are both accomplished people. Just because they don't subscribe to the same world view that I do or engage in activities that are "culturally Black" doesn't diminish what they've achieved. Spankee's post about some Blacks being assimilated (my word, not spankee's) into the White world and not feeling there's anymore struggle is dead on. But again, what about those Blacks who've accepted that poverty, inequality, and drug dealing are just a part of our communities? I'd say they've forgotten the struggle as well. There is apathy on both ends of the spectrum. ------------------ We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit.--Aristotle |
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------------------ KAPPA ALPHA PSI FRATERNITY, INC. SPR 97 XI LAMBDA |
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Here's a question...had she been an AKA or DST, but had done NOTHING for the sisterhood or community, would this thread even be taking place? I ask because she is VERY active in Alpha Chi, and has been since becoming an alumna. She is friends with our National President, and recently spoke at our National Convention. Regardless of her political affiliation and the fact that she DOES remind me of Clarence Thomas (in ways that Gen. Powell doesn't) she is a very likeable, dignified woman. Every article I have read about her fails to mention anything reproachable--she is intelligent, highly moral, well-dressed Black woman who, along with Ruth Simmons, is a great role model for young Black girls. |
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------------------ "There is only one religion, though there are a hundred versions of it." ~George Bernard Shaw |
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Again, just asking... http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif [This message has been edited by AKA2D '91 (edited January 25, 2001).] |
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Thank you, so much for that particular point. I've been following this with a bowl of popcorn! Excellent debate. I've never examined the 'slackers' if you will in our society and I think your comment is totally on point! ------------------ "Unless you know the road you've come down, you cannot know where you are going" ~Temme proverb, Sierre Leone~ |
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There comes a time when SILENCE IS BETRAYAL; so if Collin Powell, Candoleeze, or any other prominent African-American that has access to the media ignores wrong-doing for the sake of fear of making waves, THEY ARE SELL-OUTS. NO ANDS, ORS, BUTS ABOUT IT. |
Personally, if ANYONE reminded me of Clarence "handkercheifhead" Thomas, I'd RUN the other way!
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BTW AlphaChiGirl, are you Black? If you are not, then you have no business even trying to tell US who OUR role models should be. ------------------ MCCOYRED Dynamic Salient Temperate Mu Psi '86 BaltCo Alumnae [This message has been edited by mccoyred (edited April 18, 2001).] |
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1) Started grinning and agreeing with her 2) Get her told about what a racist so and so she is 3) Focus the conversations back on the competencies for the position and point out how that person had the qualities we were looking for. Most times I choose #3 (although catch me on the right day and I will go #2 on yo a$$!!) I think sometimes we expect the Colin Powells of the world to be firebrands and if they are not they are sellouts. I don't think that is the case. I'll give you another example--Bryant Gumbel ((ducking to avoid the tomatoes being thrown my way)) Most Black folks will brand him a sell-out. Now, Bryants new found love of blonde white women aside, I think Bryant is far from a sell-out. For instance, he is a MAJOR supporter of UNCF and has spoken about it casually and in formal settings when he was on the Today Show. It is because of Bryant (almost singlehandedly) that the Today Show did that week (or was it 2 weeks?) in Africa a few years ago. No other network had done that. If Bryant had been branded a 'Black nationalist' early in his career he would have never gotten those opportunities. Sometimes we just gotta know what battles to pick and sometimes silence does not mean agreement, but it means waiting for a more opportune time. |
How do you use the stupid quote thing??? Somebody please help!!!!!!!!!
Anyway!! AlphaChiGirl b4 you speak please get the facts straight. Your sorority sister often visited 16th Street Baptist church, I am member there and my family has been attending there since the 40's. She and my aunt were very good friends growing up. Condoleeza's father was very instrumental in my aunt's decision to attend Stillman College an HBCU where she pledged a BLACK SORORITY. For those who are out of touch that is a Historically Black College and University!!! Also if I'm not mistaken her father was the principal of one of B'ham's 3 black high schools up unitl the early 60's. And where did you get the idea that she moved when she was 9 or 10. Her dad just died around Christams time and he was still residing here in B'ham with the rest of her family. Your sorority sister didn't leave B'ham until she left for college and after she graduated she still lived her for awhile. Please get the facts straight!!! I'm happy to hear that she is very active in your community but what about our community?? Are you all active in the black community?? If the answer is yes I rest my case, but if it's what I KNOW it is, I've proven my point. I can't recall ever seeing a white sorority or fraternity in the black community, so therefore what has she given back to us?? Why would you even mention her name in the same sentence with Clarence Thomas, you only hurt her credibility even more. If she reminds you of Clarence Thomas then that's bad news for not only blacks but America as a whole! What makes her so likeable in your opinion? and who are you to tell black women who our role models should be? IS she so likable because she has so many white affiliations? Is that your idea of a successful black woman....please explian! I'm quite confused. |
Why are Black people so sensitive about every little thing that is said to them? I wonder if White people would get all upset if I said Hilary Clinton (or any other high profile White woman) is a good role model for White girls.
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All I said is that she is Presbyterian by faith. I didn't say, "she didn't attend that church!" because I don't know. |
Frankly, what goes on with white folks and their role models (or whatever) is of no concern to me and I am sure many others. Cause they don't give a rat's behind about us and ours! http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/tongue.gif I don't see how a black person in this world cannot be sensitive towards many things. Why do some of us want to remove ourselves from things that are apart of us? So yeah, I am sensitive and I am not ashamed about it! AlphaChigirl, I can see where mccoyred was coming from. She asked if you were black because of your username. I am sure there are not too many blacks in your organization. Correct me if I am wrong... |
In the words of Ace Ventura "AAAAAAAlRighty then". Let's take a moment to read some famous words...
[QUOTE]Originally posted by ManndingoNUPE: [B] Though we all have our own various opinions, and we do disagree (sometimes kinda heatedly),we still maintain respect and love for that person and their viewpoint. I love U guys man!!! Big group hug. MN Inhale http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/mad.gif ...Exhale http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/eek.gif ....Inhale http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/frown.gif ...Exhale http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/rolleyes.gif ... Now don't you all feel better? http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif AlphaChiGirl, keep ya head up. |
My question is: why is everyone always hyperventilating on this board? Especially as it pertains to race? Did these emotions help someone get into college today? Get a job? Learn how to read? Get quality health care? Start a successful business? Register to vote?
If all of you are so down, then we certainly can do without the two or ten black folks you consider not black enough. This constant bitching and moaning (YES, I said it) is soooo not productive, not in here, not in your communities, and not on the national stage. I mean, really. Whoever's bad enough to challenge my "black pass," for speaking my mind, bring it on! |
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