Big money
 

Don't any of you have ambitions for big money? Am I the only one?

Someone out there must also be working in investment banking, trading, for a hedge fund or have a share in a private equity company right?

There has to be one since everyone I know who becomes a BSD and makes bank was Greek.

-Rudey

Nope, not me.

I have met quite a few guys in this game. They work hard, play hard. Single w/ no baggage, they work hard enough they are better off that way.

I haven't met any women in this field. And the guys I know never talk about women in the office. Seems this might be an area where the "good ol' boys network" is alive and well. ;)

The good ol' boys network is definitely alive and well lol But you see it more in the blue blood European banks like Lazard and Rothschild more than anything in the US. In the US it's actually not that bad.

Nobody gets married before they reach a certain level of seniority though.

-Rudey
--Do guys you know really have baggage? I don't know any guys from college that do.

Re: Big money
 

I won't lie, I'm looking to the big money in a way.

Just not sure what I want to do yet. I wanted to go straight to law school but I think I want to take the CPA exam first and then possibly go law school or whatnot.

I'm also in the process of starting my own company (with another partner) so we'll see how that venture goes.

I do not want to work for someone else for the rest of my life though, that much I do know.

Re: Re: Big money
 

Blaine,
don't be afraid to work for others. A lot of times you really do have to earn people's respect even if it means putting in bitch work. And when you think about it, someone has to do it...the higher ups did at one point so you should to.

I think if you go to law school you should also take the CPA. With that combination you really have a good shot at a small investment bank. If you can get into a top 10 law school, you have a good shot at better than that. Also you may want to look at CFA instead of CPA.

What company? IM me if you even want to reveal it :) I had my own company from 8th grade through junior year of college.

-Rudey
--And it wasn't porn...totally serious...well maybe that was involved for about ten minutes until my mom yelled at me.

I won't lie either - of course I want money! Why wouldn't I? What am I going to a good school for, the basketball? GPBoy used to tell his brothers that we didn't want kids because they were just after our money. :p

I've been debating between law/grad for a while and I'm really thinking about doing a 4 year joint degree program with a JD and either an MSAE or an MPP.

What is MSAE?

-Rudey
--And combine law with something else...ever consider the Woodrow Wilson school?

Sure, a lot of money would be great. But there aren't any jobs I'm interested in that would bring in the big money. It's not worth it if I'm miserable every day going to work. So I'll just hold out for the lottery. lol

When I said "not me", I meant I am not going after the big money that is there to make in the financial world.

Of course I want money. :D

I don't have the opportunity to devote what it takes to end up on top in the investment banking arena. I have lovable baggage in the form of a five year old who loves anything pink! The days of working those kind of hours are way behind me.

Rudey, you are right. The guys I know don't have baggage, but most of them are five years younger than I am. And they seem to be good at having a good time, while remaining unattached. When they get to where they are going, they are going to be great catches. Smart and rich, you can't beat that. ;)

Wish I could find that combination in an available man my age. :p

What about the nuclear scientist? ;)

-Rudey
--I think that's hot Kristin.

HaHa :p

Turns out not all nuclear physicist are rich. Who knew? :D

Plus I don't want to clutter your thread with all my requirements for an available man. ;)

Masters of Science in Applied Economics - there's a million different names for it, that's what Marquette calls it so that's what I'm used to.

And yeah, I've looked at Woodrow Wilson, along with JFK, Harris, and the Law Center at Georgetown...they're all a little bit of a reach right now but I'm hoping I can get my grades up, and worst case scenario, I don't go to that horrible of a school. ;)

I'm actually going to tour schools next summer, I'll be in DC for 8 weeks so I'm going to visit a friend at Princeton and then my aunt (who lives in Connecticut) is going to take me around to a few other schools.

http://www.jobsinthemoney.com/

You guys should look at this if you're looking for big money jobs. They list salaries and remember most of your compensation comes in terms of a bonus.

http://www.careers-in-finance.com/

This is to give you an idea of what these jobs involve. The big boy jobs aren't about picking up other people's crumbs. You pretty much are instrumental in developing the world.

http://www.careers-in-finance.com/ib.htm

That is specifically what I do. This site is a little outdated, but it still hasn't changed much on what the jobs involve and what kind of people go into them.

-Rudey
--Who knows maybe one other person out there is into this stuff.

I certainly wouldn't complain if someone wanted to pay me some enormous salary for my job, but I'm more concerned with whether or not I enjoy what I do and whether or not I have time for my own life outside of work. If I have to spend 60-80 hours each week at work, then even a 7-figure or higher salary wouldn't be worth it because I wouldn't have any time left to enjoy the money.

I'm perfectly happy with my modest income (it's enough to support myself), but do plan on getting a masters degree later. Positions I've researched within my degree field that require a masters degree tend to start anywhere from $50k to $150k. On the other hand, I also have other financial arrangements already set that guarantee a certain degree of financial independence in the future, so I'm not really worried about it.

I guess the bottom line here is that I don't have any personal need for "bling bling" to validate my choice of profession.

Who wouldn't want big money? Then again, some don't want to make the sacrifices required to get there. It's all in how you choose to live your life. Do you want to work to live or live to work? My ex was trying hard to get to the top early on in our marriage. To the point that he took a whole 2 hours off work when we had our first child, and those two hours were to get me to the hospital while I was in labor. He worked 6 days a week, 12 hours a day back then and he missed her whole infancy. We definitely had different views about what was more important. I would rather make enough money to be comfortable without my job being my whole life. I work in IT now and I don't make as much money with my current company as I could other places. However, I have 6 weeks vacation/sick time per year and I don't have to carry a pager ever! For some people, some things are more important than money. And, I'm not saying that's bad for those people.. you need to live your life the way you choose, it just isn't for everybody.

Dee

I started out on this same route--- my concentration, for my undergrad and my MBA, was in finance. I was focused on getting my CFA.
Right out of school I worked for a LBO, as a cash manager. I was incharge of our daily cash position-- making decisions if we needed to borrow or invest. I was the keeper of the debt documents--I knew our revolver terms inside and out, as well as every last word on our junk bond issuance documents. And worked closely with the banks to make sure we were always in compliance.
I was also in charge of all our bank accounts, US and foreign currency. I would buy and sell currency. And the company was starting to hedge.
I worked long hours, often 6am or earlier (to catch the european trade floors) and never left work before 6pm-- and often would meet my husband for dinner and go back, until 11 or so.
It was a very cool job. Looking back it is unreal-- I was 22 years old-- a signer on 25+ corporate bank accounts, in charge of soooo much money, had a secretary, an office.
What happened you might ask..... it was an LBO, they were bought out. The new company had their own corp finance people, so I stayed with the company and just took on a new role as inventory control manager. I was married at 22, by 24 I was pg, and the high pressured finance job was not conducive to a family life. I changed jobs, I have a full time job but I am only at work about 32hrs a week--I enjoy the job. But the job is not as prestigous--but I have plenty of time for my family.

-wendi

I would like to be financially secure. That part is already taken care of for me, so I can follow my passion in life without being overly concerned about a large paycheck and climbing my way to the top. I understand that that's a rare thing.

The 80 hour workweeks in the finance industry don't seem to be worth it for me, really. I graduated from school with a lot of kids who moved here to work for JP/GS/BS, etc...and I never see them. They're making a lot of money, to be sure, but they don't get to be young and in their early 20s. Some people like that lifestyle, while others are lucky enough to reap the benefits of that lifestyle without the high pressure.

You and I think alike. ;)

Re: Big money
 

People who think like this need to get their priorities straight! I hate to break the news, but as a graduate of an Ivy League law school working for a large and prestigious law firm making a big salary, I can tell you from experience that if money is your only motivation you won't go far. The kind of hours it takes to make that kind of $ should only be spent doing something you actually enjoy!

Re: Re: Big money
 

A) I have my priorities straight. They are MY priorities sweety.

B) Don't flaunt your Ivy League Law degree. You don't know who you're competing with.

C) While working at firms like Skadden might make you money and even bigger money when you reach a senior level, you are not a big swinging dick in terms of what you make by any comparison to those in banking or trading.

I make a decent amount of money and I love what I do. I have a direct say in how the world is being developed. For example, I was in a conference call with Phil Angelides a couple weeks ago discussing California's debt structure as it stands right now. Tell me what other job offers that. My 26 year old friend is taking home about 20K in bonus every month because he's making that much every day for his firm by being one of the best traders on the floor.

Yes you work hard but you play hard. I work on average 80 hours a week and 120 hours isn't unheard of in my line of work every once in a while. I've been taken to incredible dinners, balls, parties, have full access to almost every sporting event and concert I can imagine, sometimes we rent party buses even. Once it's Saturday night all the bankers hit the bars and clubs and have a lot of fun. The time is hard people but I created this thread not for those who don't want to do it but for those who enjoy it. If you don't like it why post here right? Create a thread on professions you enjoy. It's just what I enjoy and I think other people might too so I was trying to find them.

People don't do this forever. At some point you move into ventures that require you putting up your own capital. By the time I'm 40 I might be retired. Who knows? I can pursue politics or religious studies. I don't want to just make it through life, I don't want to be comfortable and I don't want to be well off, I want to be filthy rich at some point. Those are my goals and I was just wondering if there were others out there that pursued that.

-Rudey
--Alphagam-alum were you making the currency sales decisions as a trader?

Re: Re: Re: Big money
 

My sales decisions were based, not as a trader, but on need in the accounts I maintained. If I would foresee a need for funds in the very near future I would monitor currency values and decide the best time to buy. The company held interests in Canada and Europe. I primarily dealt with CDN$, Pounds, French and Belgian Francs, Lira, Marks.
We maintained most of our foreign funds in the form of Pounds, if the rate was good between US$ and Pounds, I woud increase our holdings. As the need for other funds would arise, I would sell our Pounds for whatever other currency I was needing.

-wendi

and edited to add--- while in grad school and while working in finance --my finance dream job would have been futures trading in the commodities market.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Big money
 

So you just purchased currency? I've done that for my own accounts but didn't realize people made a business of it. I just want to be positive you weren't doing FX trading or any interest rate derivatives.

The question is what commodities? Please tell me it's not something boring like beans. Those traders stand around in the pits and are waiting for closing most of the time. Sorry I can't imagine you in any other area of the floor because you generally have to be pretty aggressive and, often times, male. If I'd gone into trading, I probably would have gone with a sexy shop as opposed to a bulge bracket so i wouldn't be doing paper trades for years before they even let me touch the real stuff and probably on eurodollar options. I think I'd do well on the floor but I'm pretty worried about being hot-headed down there and getting a hefty fine.

I think you should ask your broker to approve you for options trading and see what you can do with a couple g's.

-Rudey
--Just don't blow the account ;)

Re: Re: Re: Big money
 

A. Then I feel sorry for you (and learn how to spell, "sweetie").

B. Believe me, I am neither "flaunting" nor "competing." I could care less who you are or what your credentials are, I just think you are sad.

C. I neither claim to be, nor want to be, a [insult vulgar, clearly demonstrative of your lack of command of English language or ability to describe a person, thing, or condition using appropriate or elegant language here] and my whole POINT (which you clearly were incapable of grasping) is that I do what I want to do BECAUSE it's what I want to do. I am not claiming to make the most money or have the biggest paycheck, but at least I can claim that I am doing what I want to do, not just posting random things on websites proclaiming that my motivation is money.

In any event, if you love your job, more power to you, but your original post did not read that way. In fact, it made you sound unbelievably shallow, uninteresting, and unintelligent.

But that's just my two cents....

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Big money
 

Yeah Rudey, I was just purchasing. The business was not made on currency purchases, it was an LBO with worldwide holdings-- I was purchasing for company use, to fund daily operations.
What commodities?--precious metals. (although if i would have pursued commodities, and stayed in kc, i probably would have been doing something as boring as ag related-haha).

and Rudey, what exactly are you getting at, with the beans are boring and you can't see me in any other area of the floor comment? I am highly aggresive, I get whatever I go after, and I am positive that I, just as you, would do very well on a trade floor.

-wendi

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Big money
 

LOL Very few traders are girls...ever wonder why? Sometimes it's more about being a dick. Plus the traders I know that were girls on the floor were abnormally tall. Don't laugh at that. I have no idea why that is and the only thing I can imagine is so you can quickly react to things visually but I don't know so that's a wild guess. Because of that, if girls were taken into trading at these prop shops they were kept on the desk and off the floor. So I wasn't trying to get at anything. That's just the hierarchy there.

-Rudey
--Yuck on the ag

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Big money
 

Abnormally tall--- hahaha. But you might be onto something about the visual and height thing. If I am standing behind a tall person, all I can see is their head, back or chest. So it would be hard to see and react.
But sill the hierarchy sucks!!!!

--"yuck on the ag"-- i concur, it would be boring!!

-wendi

I'd love to get big money - whether I will or not, who knows, but I want to be more than comfortable in my life.

I'd like to either have my own public relations firm or be a higher-up at a publishing company. Either way I'd be making decent cash and doing something I'd love.

We'll see what happens - for now though I'll keep putting in the time and try to get ahead.

Re: Re: Re: Big money
 

Then how do you find so much time to post on GC?

After a life of always having everything I needed/wanted, I agree 100%. I'll take "just getting by" any day if I'm truly happy.

I have plenty of money to do the things I love but I would never say I'm incredibly happy with my life.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Big money
 

I don't really care too much to argue with anyone on here. Yeah I have a big ego. But I say that with confidence. I admit to every wrong and every fault I have. But that's what makes me confident...knowing what is wrong with me on top of what isn't. That is why I'm not pursuing the girl who responded to this thread earlier. I know where I am, and that's all I care about.

I didn't create this thread to fight with people. You all want to do that then fine. Do it. I honestly created this because I want people out there to understand what these fields are like. I won't lie, the majority of it is about money. I love it. I don't care how others feel but that's how I feel. I bet you that if I told you that you could make 20K next year being a runner for a market maker on the floor and do all the small things, get yelled at, and more...you'd do it. Why? Because you're guaranteed a total comp package of 80K the following year and unless you really are one stupid idiot who got the job because his brother owns the firm, you won't deviate too much from that.

Anyway, why did I go into banking? Because I wanted to see how companies worked. I wanted to know every damn detail on how they are valued, their debt structures, who runs them, why they make those decision, why they do well and more. I tried consulting. I loved the challenge but it still didn't show me how the company worked. When you understand those details you really start to see things differently. It's not about math. I can do math, but if it was based on math, they'd have outsourced my job to India where there are a ton of unemployed PhD's in mathematics. So I got to see how these companies worked, what the economy is based on and I got placed into an amazing group in public finance. Those bridges, airports, roads, schools everything you see out there are financed through underwriters like my firm. When I go to Virginia to meet with a client I know that the bonds I created built the schools that kids for the next 50 years will be sitting in. I see my results. And within public finance, there is an aspect of politics. At my level I don't get to hobnob it with all the top people, but I at least see them and know when I'm qualified I'll be talking into their ears about municipal finance. ie I don't play with numbers all day...those are bean counting accountants. I help put together deals. Without people like me your roads, schools, bridges, would never get built.

So why do I have so much time to post on GC? Part of it is because I'm stupid. I admit my faults. This thing is addictive and as I came on here because of that. The other aspect is that when you work 80 hours a week you need to pace yourself. I don't want to be a burnout. I love my work and if that means I have to stay 82 hours a week to enjoy other things I will. Answer the question? I didn't want to sound too offensive so I hope if you care about these jobs, you'll learn something from what I posted or ask more.

-Rudey
--Take care.

Rudey,

I really wasn't trying to insult you. I was curious more than anything as to what your secret was for finding the time.

I joined GC really just to learn more about other Greeks and such, and I've definitely gotten that. In the process, if I can learn some of the finer points of Investment Banking, then I'm all for it. I just couldn't imagine working that much and then having the sanity to come on here and post let alone being able to walk straight. I guess I will never know!

To answer your original question though, I'd certainly like to be in the big money. However, the route I've taken probably won't allow that for a little while (I just received my MBA but am pursuing a career in Higher Education Administration). Really, until I receive a doctorate I won't be in the big money.

But, just like you, this requires patience and hard work. Both of which I have. And they are definitely needed in the industry that you are in. But if you can stick it out, more power to ya!

I think it would be great to have a job where "big money" was a part of it... a lot of people I know in the finance industry work hard and play hard like someone mentioned earlier... they work WAY over 80+ hours a week, but they know that they will pretty much be able to retire by the time they are 40, so they can pursue other interests in life. I think that is pretty awesome, but I don't think that kind of life is for me. I was offered a position with a finance company not too long ago, but turned it down because I know it's not something I could do while I was in college (and keep my sanity!), and I know for sure that I don't want to spend every waking moment working... I want to be able to enjoy my life :)

So that wouldn't make me happy, and I realize that for some people it does make them happy, and I think that's great :) My whole philosophy is if you don't like what you're doing, don't do it!! Find something you like to do and get paid for doing what you like! :)

Here's a question for you Rudey - I've heard that in professions such as investment banking, that the "work hard, play hard" mentality is almost forced on you. I had a friend of a friend that was basically told that you weren't part of the team if you don't go to happy hour after work with the big bosses and get hammered. He said he didn't mind it occasionally or on the weekends and the like, but they felt pressure to go out and be part of the "coporate culture." Like if you don't follow the crowd and fit in then you won't go very far. True?

To some extent. It's definitely like that at some places more than others. That's actually a really good question and requires me to think about it but I'll try and answer it. Go look at the website for any of the bulge bracket firms like Goldman Sachs or any of the sexy boutique shops like Gleacher or Lazard and look where they recruit. You'll notice they only recruit at certain schools, year after year. Why? Part of it is elitism, part of it is based on the alums that work for the firm, but more than anything it's about recruiting a certain character that fits your mold.

The best analogy I can think of is fraternity rush. To give you an example of how competitive it is to land these positions (not saying anyone that does is better than those that don't) I'll tell you what Credit Suisse First Boston (CSFB) told me. Usually they have between 40-100 spots available for each analyst class...this isn't just banking and can include sales and trading, wealth management, and other positions. About 5 years ago, half of the graduating class of Yale applied for a job with CSFB. I didn't bring up Yale to name drop and make it sound more impressive. I did it to put my next point in context. Yale is a good school, the students tend to be brighter than your average bear, and there are quite a few more schools like this with impressive students all applying for the same damn jobs. The bank got to choose from the best.

So these companies come to campus and present (rush), if you're good you might get an interview (bid), and then the three rounds of interviews are there to weed you out (pledge). They know you're smart. You've gotten into that school, gotten good grades, and they don't have to waste resources to figure out if you're smart. In fact most students brought in are not finance majors because finance isn't available at the schools they recruit at. These students can pick that up during their training rotations. So right now they're going on personality, looks, why you're talking so quietly or being annoying. Nobody wants to be at the office 120 hours a week with a tool. You simply have to fit the mold. The mold varies slightly from firm to firm, but the idea doesn't change.

So to answer your question after yapping so long, you are most likely already going to work hard, play hard without them even forcing it on you. Most people who go into this have played team sports and/or were greeks so they understand how important it is to value the team. Now yes there are points where you might feel it's controlling if somehow you got through without fitting their mold. You might be so independent that you hate eating with people, don't want to go to drop a couple hundred on booze at a cluh when it should cost 20 bucks, etc. Then you feel like something is being pressed on you. Your friend is trying to compensate for something he's doing wrong though. Your ability to pound drinks has no correlation to your advancement in the company. At the end of the day it's about money. The company hires people that work well together and can make money. So you have to realize the balance that exists there.

-Rudey
--Personally I can't stand people from certain firms because their firm's "mold" must be messed up or something.

80 is usually average and goes down with time at the firm. Very rarely are there firms that put you through the 120 hours a week every week. The only one I can think of is Lazard. Some analysts just love bragging about how many hours they work so the might exaggerate.

-Rudey
--Unless they're really messing up and have to work incredibly hard to meet their deadlines for some reason.

Where would you say is the point where those long weeks back off some?

80 hours is not nearly as big a deal when you're 22 as when you're 45 and maybe trying to raise a family.

I suspect that 50-60 hours a week is not uncommon for anyone who is successful in pretty much any industry.

Later in life, though, I think that becomes a health issue for some people.

Thoughts?

There is no such thing as a free lunch ya know? This work isn't for people who want to just get by or be comfortable or have a nice nest egg. I never say I'm rich because I'm not, but it's good to know that I am making so much right out of college, earning every damn cent of it, and knowing everything I bought has been bought with my money...not with my parents' because most Americans still consider themselves dependent on their parents until 25 I think (somewhere around there is the official number).

So when you come straight out of school, they work you. This is pretty much only in banking though. They don't do this in consulting or trading. Consulting involves never having a home and always travelling and trading involves burning a hole in your stomach...never long hours. 80 hours out of school is about average. Your second year as an analyst that drops to 60-70. There are going to be busy times by the way. If M&A takes off and you're amazing at what you do in an industry (say transportation), they will bring you in (more than likely you will WANT to come in) and work on the deals until they clear. After 2 years you usually go get your MBA. An MBA is not some intensive course of study. I think more than anything, it's to rejuvenate you before going back as an associate to the bank if you still want to stay in banking. Banking teaches you how everything works so a lot of times the guy who knows the in's and out's of transport will be recruited to run a specific program at say GM. As an associate, I'd say 60 hours sounds about right and then the number should drop as you go higher. A lot of managing directors leave early on Fridays to take their helicopters to the Hamptons. That is a luxury that all analysts can only dream about.

Here's the funny thing though. Your body requires less sleep as you grow older so it's sorta like a cruel joke that you can work later (if you don't have a family) but now have the option not to. There are those that totally give their lives to this. I think Blackstone is like that. So many people would kill to join this firm it's ridiculous. They work 120 hours A LOT even when they're 45.

-Rudey

Yeah, but we need naps in the afternoon. Just kidding. Just curious because I don't think any amount of money would be worth 80-120 hours a week at my stage of life. Interesting thread.

I'd rather just be playing golf and travelling at your stage in life and think if I work at it I will be.

Edited to Add:
You can have a well-balanced life but yes your career will have to be a priority as well. The senior bankers, VP's, and MD's all have families. They are responsible for getting work done and generating money for the firm, but when it's time to go home and see their family they will. This isn't like the movie Elf where the guy never sees his family. It can be but most people would rather not be that guy. And the way I look at it is a very early retirement for me so I can spend even more time with my family. For me it's important to get married and start a family and I know I'll sacrifice probably not seeing my children speak their first words, but when they can go to college without worrying about large debts hanging over their heads, they might forgive me. DeltAlum, I'm sure when your son got accepted at Northwestern (I think that's where it was) you had to deal with difficult issues over the cost. Every parent and student does at that age. Wouldn't it be wonderful if you didn't have to worry though?

-Rudey
--If my handicap doesn't drop by retirement, it was all for nothing.

I think the guy goes out and plays along, he just isn't really comfortable with it. I have no idea how he's doing on his reviews, etc.