Here is the real problem!
 

Okay so here is the problem with Alumni and active relations besides the obvious old fart vs. change arguments. Mind you that I am an alumni and I am trying to be helpful. The reason alumni and actives do not get along is because of the differences in lifestyles. An alumni thinks of his time and energy as an asset and also thinks of the well being of the fraternity. The active wants to change things ever so slightly to make his mark. SO we have a situation analagous to... oh lets say the Roman Empire. So we are stuck in a situation of an alumni dictatorship with uprising from the actives (at least thats how our chapter thinks). We are told that we all have a say what happens in the house except financially we are controlled by a few alumni. We want something they don't... they threaten to pull money out and then they get their way. What kind of control is that? When 95% a house wants something you should think that we could get it. So here is my solution: If something is wanting to be changed, the house isn;t where it should be.

To serious to be funny, to sad but so true!

The fight of the old and new goes on forever.

We all go through this, I did this when I was there.:)

But, the total idea is for Memebers of the same Organization to try and work for the best for all of us!

The old look down on the young and the young resent interference!:(

Catch 22! Well until the young get in trouble and ask the old to bail thier butts out!:)

Young always need money as they have no damn clue how to do budgets! Right?

This is the truth! My chapter's new and they don't see it. As a recently formed alumni chapter (I should be receiving our charter in the mail in 5-7 days:D ) I wrote a few items I wanted them to insert into their constitution sort of "formalizing" the relationship between the active and alum chapters.

Thus far, the answer has been something like "We want you around, but we don't want you to tell us to do anything" (not that we ever have, heck, the amendments didn't do anything but mention that we only had an "advisory" role and that threatened them).

Anyhow... The day will come when we have that issue with the money. It'll be an issue to work through. I'm confident though that even actives can see what must be done for the greater good.

Heh...if they won't add the clauses to the constitution and bylaws, then you just leave it as is. Then, when they later decide to go to the alums for money, you can say "Oh, I'm sorry. We'd love to dig into our deep alumni pockets, but we never formally cemented our relationship in the bylaws. After all, we like to be around, but we don't want to have to donate anything."

:p


.....Kelly :)

ok, i am laughing out loud!!! that was too much!

i agree that there is definately a struggle when trying to bridge that gap between alums and collegiates and unfortunately, i don't have any solutions. it takes small steps and the right people to present things in that "certain" way that makes things gel.

Precisely why we formed an alumni chapter... I should get the charter by UPS next week sometime:cool:

A Few Questions for some Alums
 

Having recently graduated, I always had a few questions about some of the things are alumni had us sign and our house is involved in this right now.

1: Is it legal for them to have us sign a document giving them the right to search rooms whenever they want. Their argument: the house does not fall under the landlord-tenant act and that therefore gives them a window to this. The reason: They want to be able to make sure that we are not drinking in the house which is understandable, but what is protecting us from them?

Issue one: What keeps them from taking something of ours if its after hours or we aren't there. Also, they recently did a room raid during spring break of last year when there was three guys in the house. It just seems wrong.

Issue Two: Aren't we giving up one of our freedoms if we allow searches of personal space?

Re: A Few Questions for some Alums
 

I'm no lawyer whatsoever, but I don't think this is true (especially in Seattle with their stringent tenant rights). I think they still have to abide by landlord-tenant laws. They do have the right to search your rooms, but they have to give the appropriate notice (it was 24 hours when I lived within the Seattle city limits).

Gamma Phi's House Corp bylaws give evey Gamma Phi, who paid into the "building fund" of such and such chapter, a vote in the workings of the HCB. We have an annual meeting and every alum and active of the specific chapter can attend and vote on the Board of Directors and the other issues. The collegiates basically have the power if they make teh entire house attend the meeting.

Now, REALITY. Many (not all) rich people like to get their way, no matter what. And they will always threaten to pull their financial support. I personally think that's a crock of crap that they pull that, but I'm sure it happens. Can you replace their support with money from other alumni?

But wait it gets better...
 

We checked into that landlord-tenant act as well... However we told our alumni that as well and when we said that, they said that if it did fall under that act that they would pull their money becuse they feel they have no control. However, good news is is that they cannot pull their money out due to the mortgage. They are required to sign a document that guarantees the house for every 4 or 5 years. They just resigned it during the summer. So they cannot pull their money without finding a replacement guarantor. But its not like we are going to do something horrible or anything anways. I just want to know if this is legal what they are doing or not?

On another note, if there is no organization that protects greeks from living arrangments like this or creates standard guidelines for rules and regulations of greek houses, there sure as hell should be!

I'm not familiar with the support that Theta Nu Xi provides to its alum organizations and housing corps, but I'd advise you to contact whoever advises those groups. I'm sure the national organization has a great prescription for your situation. This kind of stuff shouldn't come up and really, as long as the active chapter is doing alright, alums should just smile and write checks;)

However, when the going gets tough, that's why you have a national organization to turn to.

I could hear about this one later
 

You know that would work in all but... guess who is one of the 6 heads of our national organization? One of our guarantors. Imagine that. We can't go to nationals about this because our guarantor are pretty much nationals. And its not Theta Nu Xi. Its just Thetaxi.

Are they really willing to let the house just fold (which it sounds like that's what you're saying would happen if they pulled their money out) just to "get their way"?

Most of the houses at the UW have been there A LONG time and I can't believe they would really be so <insert any expletive here> just to get what they want.

There are a number of choice words going through my head right now but unfortunately, I have nothing useful to say.......

I just HATE to see alumni who act that way. :mad:

They'd probably pull their money because they are from Wazzu and married to AGDs. You hate their football team and squirrels, can't help things.

However, you may want to check and see if living in the house is including in landlord and tennant laws. I know that often university housing is exempt from it, and it may be the same even though the house is owned by the corporation and off campus. You'd want to check with city and state laws as those can vary greatly.

please refer to my previous comment...

what do we do with that?

You didn't specify city or state, I suggested checking into both. Heck there may even be county laws, I forget about those as San Francisco is a city&county all in one.

I don't think you understand
 

If we do fall under landlord tenant (which we are pretty sure we don't) we are screwed b/c our guarantor will pull out. If we don't then we have to sign our agreements which will give them the right to searches at any time. Which I think is giving up our freedom of privacy. I am checking into homeowners insurance because I think they cannot do this if we have homeowners insurance. Its as if they have a key to our room as well and they can come and go as they please. Thats just not right.

Re: I don't think you understand
 

Why don't you call your headquarters and ask? I'm sure they have someone who specializes in housing.

Pleasse refer to my previous post regarding that. Our nationals is controlled by 6 people. One of which is our guarantor.

Sorry, I missed that post somehow. Trying to talk to nationals is better than nothing, though, isn't it? It's frustrating trying to help you when you just keep shooting down all our ideas. Have you tried talking to your Greek Life advisor? Have you contacted a lawyer to figure out your rights from your lease?

Have you tried talking with some of the alums from other UW Fraternity houses, maybe someone you graduated with? They may know all about how the fraternity houses fall into the Seattle landlord-tenant laws. They might even have some advice about dealing with the alumni situation.

Unfortunately, all of my experience is with UPS and our house is University owned.

Im not shooting down your ideas, im pointing out that they have alrady been shot down by our alums. I however am looking into it from a renters insurance standpoint. If we are all to get renters insurance through an agency that requires the alumni corp to abide by their terms then we should be okay without having to say to our alumni "I won't sign that". It will be more of a "I can't sign that becuase my renters insurance doesn't allow me to have a secondary party come and search my room without me knowing or being there." It sounds like it might have a chance. And at least the insurance company can tell me if this is legal or not. They are currently checking into their regional office for clarification into the matter. We have consulted an attorney and they were also questioning it as well as to whether it falls under the landlord tenant act. However, an attorney is expensive and we are looking at other options before consulting him. I guess the real question here is: Is this legal?

I am still trying to sort this situation out. I wish you would be a little more explicit on the problems between the Alum and Active members.

The Alums are upset about a few minor changes?

What are the minor changes?


The House Corporation owns the House?

The House Corporation is made up of a Board of Directors, correct?

Are there members of the Active Chapter who are on the Board?

I do not really know that much about you Organization, but LXA has a stingent set of guidelines which are followed for the House Corporation. Who is on the Board, how many Officers from the Alum and what Officers of the Active Chapter are on the Board!

Usually, the House Corporation owns the House as they own title to it. What the Active Chapter does is rent the House from them. They pay rent which in turn pays the bills.

Depending on what the lease agreement states upon signing is what dictates what the rights are of the people who live in the house.

If no such stipulation is given, the Land Lord still has the right to inspect the premisis. This includes private rooms. A notice must be given with a proper time date for both partys to meet at said room. If the party refuses to allow the Land Lord to inspect the room, they can be found in default and asked to vacat. If there is non payment of rent, they can be evicted.

It seems that more blanks to questions need to be filled in!

The Alums plus the co-signer have a very larg responeabilit of paying for a building. A House for Fraternity/Soroity is only a House if that Organization rents it. If not, it is just a building to be let for rent.

Question
 

maybe the best thing for your chapter to do is consult an attorney who specializes in this type of law(landlord/tenant). but as an alum, i have to ask.....are the members upset because they feel that their rights are being violated, because they have something to hide(disobeying rules) or because they do not like to be told what to do?

Tom,

Here is where the problem lies...

Since the landlords think that this property does not fall under the landlord tenant act in Washington, this idea of giving us the proper warning of 48 hours is not necessary and are wanting to host searches with no warning. This is what we think is wrong and are wanting to get out of. We have no propblem with searches as long as they give us warning. There shouldn't be be any problem with that part. The no warning gestapo style searches are our problem. I say "our" but I don;t even live there anymore. I am an alumni that thinks what they are doing is stupid. We don't want to hear that the house does fall under the landlord tenant act however becuase if it does one of guarantor will pull his money out and we will then be forced to shut down unless another alumni cosigns. Another aspect is that we do not feel that we need cosigners in the first place. I am a mortgage consultant and am looking into this part as well. However when we ask the alumni to look into this they say there is no chance and that we should just accept it. Maybe there is no way but I'll find that part out when I meet with a broker this week to discuss it. hopefully that fills in some holes.

Re: Question
 

I don't know anything about landlord/tenant laws, but I also have to ask....

Why is this such a sticking point between actives and alums? Why do the alums want the ability to do room searches at will? Have the actives and alums sat down and talked about what their goals/expectations/standards are for the house? There might be more behind this....and if you can find out what that is, actives and alums may be able to resolve this.

And while you are talking with a lawyer, find out what would happen if the actives had contraband in their rooms. What liabilities do the alums face if something illegal happens in the house they have helped finance? The risks go both ways, the alums may be trying to cover their butts as well.

I seriously hope you are not taking legal guidance from this website.

You need to find a real lawyer if you are signing legal contracts with anyone about anything. Expensive? Maybe. But very likely your university offers some sort of legal counsel guidance. Does your school have a law school? Call them and see if they provide pro bono services for student issues.

If you voluntarily agree to sign a contract that allows them to search your room, you may very well find it binding.
But if you sign it and then decide to change the locks to your house, they'd have to sue you for breech of contract. The police won't enforce civil contracts without an order from a judge. You might still end up in court but they'll have to hire an attorney as well. They'd be better off evicting you.

Jeez, sounds like maybe a lawyer is a good idea.

If the alumni have so little trust of the actives, why in the world are they entering into this agreement? Why would the collegians want to live under such terms? I'd rather live in a dorm!

Don't get me wrong...
 

The uprising about the surprise room seaches (the main problem) was egged on by our alumni when they did one when everyone was home for spring break. There were three people in the house at the time and things that would beak our "contract" were found. However, there was no contract this year because the contracts were not handed out to people to sign. So we really had no contract. However, we then raised the problem with the searches. The alumni have thus asked us for rights to do surprise room searches and have keys to all devices inside the rooms (safes, lockboxes, etc...). We do have a strict no alcohol or tobacco policy which everyone abides by. Alcohol and toboacco was found. No illicit drugs by any means. Not to mention the alcohol was found only in people rooms that were 21 years of age. They also said that empty beer bottles were also illegal by the "contract".

To me after reading this for myself, it sounds like our alumni corporation is doing a horrible job. They have no trust form the undergraduates as well as no control and respect. But that is just my opinion.

The real problem is that the alumni never really supported our house in the first place and have been controlling us through negative reinforcment as opposed to respect. They are constantly reprimanding the actives and imposing rules upon them.

We tried to change the board to other alumni's at our founders day meeting but we were shot down due

I will try to find more information about TZ (?) on the web.

But if push comes to shove, then this can be considered illegal searches if it is in lock boxes or safes. That cannot be asked.

While the Land lord does have rights to check for damage in the public areas, it turns very gray in the privacy of the room leasers unless a codasal(SIC) is in the lease agreement.

If this is a House Corporation, is there any stipulations of Terms of Office within the Fraternity such as term of office.?

While a very good point was mentioned on here, GC is not a good site for gaurenteeing legal advice, there are some Lawyers on here that may be able to assist you!

Now as an Alum, you may have a stronger voice of what is done if you are staying close to the situation.

It sounds like a bad situation there. LXA has a Group of Alum voentees who have the blessing of the Internatioal to act as an agent, but My Chapter want as much distance as possible to make our own decisions.

PM me if you would like and we can discuss this among us. I will also be more than happy to call you on a weekend to get more ino!

Hang in!:)

Re: Don't get me wrong...
 

:eek:

Ah no......I don't think so! If I were in your situation, this is about where I would have to try really hard to keep from having an outburst in the middle of a meeting. (I can hardly contain myself in this post). There is NO WAY that I would ever let an alum board have the keys to a personal storage unit such as a safe. I cannot believe that would even be brought up! It's one thing if you're referring to the fraternity's safe, ritual equipment cabinet, etc....but NOT NOT NOT the personal storage unit of a member. That is, if that's indeed what you meant and I didn't misunderstand.

It's one thing to love your brothers/sisters dearly, it's another to leave your sentimental or valuable items lying around in a house occupied by dozens of people, especially if there are big parties. Similarly, this applies to people who do not want to leave their belongings unsecured while the house is unoccupied over a break period. Keeping those two points in mind, I see no problem with members having loackable trunks, dressers, mini safes or jewlery chests.

If the alumni members are all in a twist because they want to be able to check to "be sure" there aren't any illegal drugs or alcohol containers in the house, TOO BAD. That does not give them the right to force members to give them the keys to a personal footlocker or jewlery chest - *especially* if they want to be able to riffle through it when the member is on break and not present.

If the alumni told me that was the rule....I would refuse to live in the house. Maybe it's different because I'm a girl, but sifting through my jewlery chest or lockbox would be a major contention point. I have a lot of objects which are important to me.

At any rate, I would be shocked to find out if your house wasn't under the landlord-tenant act. Granted, I don't know much of anything about fraternity housing corps, but aren't you all effectively renting the house? If so, then you should fall under the landlord-tenant clause. That usually means that have to give something like a 24 hour notice to come inside unless there is a clear and present urgent need to enter without permission such as fire, water pipes bursting, etc. Even then, that does not give them the right to sift through your sock drawer if they felt like it.

If your property is found to fall under that clause, and the alumni guarantor pulls out, well then I guess your out of luck unless one of the other alums wants to sign on. If the guarantor did pull out for this reason, it would just be childish. I can see why he'd want to protect his interests against liability issues, but to pull without first trying to work out a compromise is foolishness.

What is it about needing to "have control"? Is there something you are not telling us? For example, has your chapter had any alcohol or drugs violations or other risk management issues lately (in the past year)?

I can't believe that [alumni] brothers would do something so pushy that could cause the chapter to lose the house and possibly even have to fold the chapter. If the landlord-tenant clause is found to be applicable, then maybe you all should call his bluff and see if the guarantor actually pulls out. Or you can invite the alumni around to have a session to respectfully discuss the issue and to hammer out an agreement or compromise like the men and brothers you all are.


.....Kelly :)

It sounds like high school where they use to do suprise locker searches. But to demand/request keys to locks to safes, etc... that is a little over the line. I would definitely consult a landlord / tenent attny ASAP. HCB may own the house and had you sign a legally binding contract for the room but they do not however own your personal articles and private things in a safe.

I am only a paralegal, and a contract may be legally binding, but i would consult a alwyer regarding this and yoru school SOON!

What a sad sign of fraternal bonding.


laura

ThetaXi -

Here is a link to the Tenants Union, which is based in Seattle. You can call them at (206) 723-0500, or go by their office at 3902 S. Ferdinand St. in Seattle. They are a nonprofit so be patient if you can't get through. http://www.tenantsunion.org/


I found the definitions of the Washington LandLord Tenant Act and though it doesn't specify fraternity houses, it does mention housing in conjunciton with education http://search.leg.wa.gov/wslrcw/RCW%...018%20.040.htm under number 1.

However, as everyone said, GO TO A LAWYER.

Re: Don't get me wrong...
 

Wait...you keep contradicting yourself, and it isn't adding any crediblity to your argument.

First you say:

But then in the next sentence, you say:

If "everyone abides" by your "strict policy" banning alcohol and tobacco from the chapter facility, then why were those substances found (including empties)? Clearly not everyone abides by the policy!

Next, you say:

Ummm...OF COURSE they don't have trust for your chapter--your members have VIOLATED POLICIES...policies for which they are responsible for enforcing and maintaining as legal guarantors of your facility.

One earns trust and respect--one doesn't demand it. Perhaps you'd have better relations with your Board if you would think harder on that point.

One last thing. You write:

I believe that they MUST support and care about your chapter to have signed their names as guarantors on your mortgage--do you realize what an incredible personal risk that is for each guarantor? Believe me, no one who "does not support" a chapter would incurr such a serious personal and financial risk just to torture some undergraduates.

I am certain you are in the middle of a bad situation between your chapter and your Board, but it sounds like BOTH sides have a case of bad attitudes.

You can't control their attitudes, but you can control yours.

I'm a collegiate and I totally understand that to an extent-- I would hate to think of people rifling thorugh my belongings or taking cigarettes or penalizing me for them.

However drinking in the house is risk managemet and a big issue that could get your charter pulled or house lost on my campus-- and I think that if the alum want to handle it within the fraternity and not get you expelled or in trouble with the college, but deal it on their basis, then they are smart!!! In that case, then i can understand both sides completely.

Try to talk it out with them, this sounds rather one sided on your part. No alum could be that beastly, and I truly doubt they are. try talking about why they want to search-- it sounds that they have reason. and tell your frat if they want to drink, to do so away from the house to avoid any kind of problems... i don't understand why you would even want to represent yoruself that horribly-- please don't defend the house-- it sounds like a horrible issue.

Re: A Few Questions for some Alums
 

It is likely that this is totally legal. The Bill of Rights only protects you from searches and seizures by the GOVERNMENT. Theta Xi is not the government. The Landlord Tennant laws do and don't apply based on state laws and I am not familiar with those of Washington, but it is likely that they don't matter b/c you are not really a tenant, you likely fall under another classification such as border. Fraternities and sororities do not create a landlord tennant relationship on purpose. That is b/c unlike a traditional landlord they have a lot more liability for your actions on the property and they have to carry insurance that traditional landlords don't have to carry. As a result you give up some of your traditional renting rights to live there. When you make the decision to join a chapter and live in the house you make the decisions to abide by the organizations rules. You can choose to be or not to be a part of your organization. If you don't like the way your alumnae conduct searches talk to your corp board president about it.

Re: Re: A Few Questions for some Alums
 

If, however, you sign a waiver saying they can search at will, you are at their mercy. This is similar to joining a homeowners association. If the association says you cannot build a fence, and everything else, including the local town ordinance, says building fences are just dandy, you CANNOT build one.

Here's another one: the govt says you can put up a HAM radio antenna in your yard. The village/town you live in say you can, but your HOMEOWNERS association does not allow them. Guess what? You cannot put one in or they will sue you and win. But wait, you say, the govt says these antennas are legal. Your rights ended when you voluntarily agreed to the terms and conditions of the association. You cannot join in and then cry foul later.

Once again, supporting the thread of get thee to a lawyer.

In response to my many antagonists...

As a non-profit organization, they thus become a instrument of the government and are controlled by the governement. This argument would give anyone the ability to search your room. Since Joe Schmoe isn't apart of the government he can search Jay's room.

And perhaps if we are able to sign away our rights to provate organizations, we shoudl still be able to obtain renters insurance (which our contract says we can get) but contradicts itself because we can't obtain this renters insurance with their search rule. So whats with that.


Your campus.




Although you did bring up some great points of contradiction and when I said the house members abide by I truly meant the the "house" abides by. This means that the house will never host any event or party where alcohol is served unless it is served by a third party vendor. That means no wet parties or anything where there would be a risk managment issue to any outside party involved. The house understands the reasoning and abides by it. Now personal issues with each member I cannot and do not know. But if someone did have alcohol or a cigar, its there personal issue and they will punished occordingly. $100 fine for firsts and then kicked out on second offense.

2nd issue: They did not have a signed contract. They never handed them out to anyone. They just had a copy for themselves which no one signed. They decided not to fine or kick anyone out once they realized that. Does that sound like good managment?

3rd Issue: Again I would like to point out that I am not an active an do not live there right now. Its really amazing how many recent alumni want to change this but because one guy wants to be able to check lock boxes in someones room at any time, we're stuck. So take it as you will, but this isn't right. And we do have many poeple checking into this not just me. A couple recent alumni like myself who are in law school. Just thought that maybe someone may have delt with a similar issue.

J

Regardless of what you might say, there is still an implied cotract. Reason being, that there have been contracts signed before hand, there for setting a precident of the implied rule to abide by the previous rules and regulation over a said period of time. This is not just now, this is what the history is previous contracts..

Until you and your Org can show just reason to not have them dictate, then you have to follow the rules laid out before you!

You still do not explain totally the total situation! You keep skirting it and until the total picture comes out, then it is really hard for anyone to make a true decision.

Contact a Lawyer! Period!

Solved
 

Here we go. The tenants union came through.

And in case your wondering...

So the room searches are not legal.

Case solved.

Thank you Aurora_Borealis and Tom Earp and others.

That was all I was really wondering.

I guess the other thing is that the alumni searched our (I was living in the house at the time) rooms already. We can technically sue them then. Not saying that anyone will. We just want them to not do gestapo searches while everyone is on SPring Break or something like that.

Hopefully now that you have this information, you or the Active Chapter can present it to them. I would then ask, that there be a sit down discussion of the situation.

Now that it is in black and white, and the illegalities of it, they will become more understanding of the Chapter feelings.

As a member of the house Corporation, I always did a walk through the House! But never the private rooms unless invited in.

You being an Alum now, it needs to be explined, that there needs to be mutual trust between Actives and Alums as You are all Brothers.

What school was this? I did check greekpages and saw one fantastic House!!!

The very best Luck in the future!!!!!!!!!!:)

Re: Solved
 

Before you go on Spring Break, change your locks!