SigEp brothers become ADPhis
 

So, they've done it. A couple of you know about this from my first post about it.

I don't think they're going to get recognized. We'll see. I don't think it's good for IFC relations, national or local. Hopefully it all works out for the guys. Although they have sort of subtly threatened to pass out bids in October or November if they don't get recognized (which would be really odd, since we have a winter rush).

Why I don't think they'll get recognized: They can't get their house back. The school owns the house and SigEp holds the lease for the next 3 years, when they plan to recolonize. I don't know where they'll be able to find a house as remotely as nice as the houses we now have on campus. Plus the school requires that all recongized fraternities' houses be owned by the school, and there aren't any unleased ones. Compound that to the fact that we don't have enough guys to support 15 fraternities (much less 16) anymore... and I think the whole situation is awkward. (The school was all guys until 1985 and has only gotten to 50-50 male female in the past 2 years or so... Numbers have been dropping due to this.)

From one of the school papers:

http://www.thetrident.org/news/525730.html

Alpha Delta Phi Brothers Carry on Business as Usual

By Megan Zingarelli
Last Friday, 33 former brothers of Sigma Phi Epsilon were initiated into the Alpha Delta Phi International Fraternity. Now an off-campus fraternity officially recognized by the national office of Alpha Delta Phi, they have yet to be recognized by the IFC or the University.

"The fraternity is here," said Eric Ritter, treasurer of both the IFC and Alpha Delt. "Even if we don't get recognized by the school, we're still nationally recognized."

Sig Ep nationals disbanded the W&L chapter in July because of "rumored alcohol abuse", "questionable membership activities," and "regular disdain and combative relations" with headquarters.

With members' initiation into Alpha Delta Phi, fraternity leaders say the chapter is on the road to recovery and business is proceeding as usual: they are carrying on with regular rush, playing intramurals, and holding regular chapter meetings. Also, they are actively searching to buy a new fraternity house with money being raised from Alpha Delt alumni.

Interfraternity Council President Brian Castleberry said he is waiting on official word from the North American Interfraternity Conference (NIC) to proceed with the University's recognition process. He said the IFC is following its standard protocol.

After an NIC nod, which will occur if Sig Ep formally releases W&L members, 11 out of the 14 W&L fraternities must vote in favor of Alpha Delt; the Student Affairs Committee must give a 50% plus 1 vote; and a faculty majority vote must be attained.

Alpha Delt has not received recognition because of the NIC's "comity clause," said Castleberry This rule says that one cannot be a member of two fraternities at once.

"It basically says 'you won't steal our guys, we won't steal yours,'" he said.

For now, lack of any word from Sigma Phi Epsilon to the NIC, IFC, or ADP nationals, has left the Alpha Delts in a "limbo state," said Castleberry.

"They are essentially outside the law," he said.

Alpha Delt's National President David Brewster said Sig Ep's word is not needed. A letter of notice sent to members and parents this summer officially expelled them, he said.

"We believe there is no action for them to take," he said. "They have expelled all the individuals from the former Virginia Epsilon Chapter."

Chris Colby, President of the local Alpha Delt affiliate, said Sig Ep officially expelled them in the letter nationals sent to members this summer.

"Sig Ep obviously expelled all of us," said Colby. "The letter is indicative of the fact that we have been expelled from the chapter, so we're not in violation of any NIC rule."

Alpha Delt's national president said he agreed.

"We proceeded because we honestly and wholeheartedly believe that we have done nothing wrong given the situation, and that Sigma Phi Epsilon has already given the formal release by expelling the individuals," said Brewster.

He said the letter constituted "a literal and very direct" release from Sig Ep.

However, now Sig Ep is telling them that they have in fact not been released and are not allowed to join another fraternity. The NIC is waiting on word from Sig Ep that all of the brothers have been officially released from the fraternity.

Castleberry said Sig Ep's word is needed because the letter left a thread of affiliation by allowing them to be eligible to apply for alumni status upon graduation.

Ritter said he believes that last weekend's initiation will compel the NIC to look at the problem.

However, Alpha Delt leaders said that they are doubly out of the fraternity because of Sig Ep's letter and because each brother has resigned from Sig Ep in writing, which the NIC stipulated must be done to completely sever any ties to SPE.

"We know they've gotten the resignation letters but they're dragging their feet," said Ritter.

He said he believes the NIC is informally on their side because of the letter, and added that last weekend's initiation will compel the NIC to look more closely at the problem.

W&L's administration is also tending to the issue. Recently, upon learning that the Alpha Delt leadership had sent out a billing for this term, Dean of Students Dawn Watkins sent a letter to the home of all new Alpha Delts informing parents of the formal recognition process.

Colby and Ritter said the letter had a tone that told parents they should not support their sons in their endeavor to become Alpha Delts. The letter said students are paying for an unrecognized fraternity. Neither the NIC nor the school has recognized them, but the Alpha Delt nationals have.

"It's pretty disheartening that the school would support an organization that's going to be fine above its current students," said Colby. "For some reason, they're siding with Sig Ep."

Watkins said she was "extremely careful" to avoid any kind of tone and was merely describing the recognition steps. She said the letter was to address confusion from parents. The administration's position is to follow the formal recognition process, she said.

Brewster said Alpha Delt supports the administration because it is protecting the interests of W&L students and the Greek System.

"Alpha Delta Phi understands that and wholeheartedly supports them in their endeavors," he said. "We want to have a good working relationship with the school and the students."

If Alpha Delt does not receive permission they will remain an underground fraternity. Ritter said that even though the Alpha Delts are happy just to be here, they want school recognition.

"We want to get recognized," he said. "We are A-okay with following the regulations."

Having an underground fraternity may damage W&L's close-knit Greek System, said Castleberry, adding that some fraternity presidents are concerned that Alpha Delt is currently violating IFC rush rules and not adhering to the standard of the organization they wish to join.

Brewster said these concerns are unfounded.

"And I can understand why other fraternity presidents would be upset," he said. "I don't blame them."

"We fully believe that given this unique set of circumstances we have done nothing wrong or 'illegal' per the NIC rules, and sincerely hope that we will be able to receive full recognition fro the IFC and the school in the near future," he said. "We don't want to be left outside the IFC, but if we are not granted recognition, we will continue on our chose path and the IFC will continue on theirs."

Watkins said if Alpha Delt remains unrecognized, she wants them to have all the information possible to be safe and responsible.

However, Colby, Ritter and the rest of the Alpha Delts might have to wait several more weeks before action is taken.

"It's no longer in our hands," Ritter said.

Wow, I'm really surprised about this. I didn't know that pledging into a second fraternity was even possible after you've been initiated into the first. I know that with NPCs, you get one bite at the apple. If you've been initiated into one--that's it. You're done.

I've heard about double memberships (NPC and NIC) before, but usually it is one 'renegade' person who thinks s/he won't get caught. Its pretty rare.

I'll definitely be following this one to see what happens.

know what's the first thing I thought?

"NPC would NEVER go for that."

Made me realize how little I actually know about the IFC...

I don't think it's really something the IFC goes for, either. There's a little more looseness there, but this is definately abnormal I think.

You know what I say?

Good for them. If they're too much of a risk, then Alpha Delt will suffer but if they'll be a benefit, then why not take them on? SigEp got rid of them so what's the problem here?

And you're right, NPC wouldn't do that. But then again I'm happy to be in a fraternity and not some fascist system with millions of rules. :)

-Rudey
--Oh well.

I am still trying to Hoser through this!:o

Did, SigEp formally disband and release the Members of this Chapter?

Did Release mean that They are no longer Members of SigEp?

If that statement is "True", then they no longer hold alegience to SPE!

That being the case, then they as members of a none exitent Fraternity of which They are no longer members of, have the right to petition another Organization. Depending on the exact situation, I am not sure what NIC has to say about it!

Now, if ADPhi gives a go, then they are a member of the NIC, and the school gives a go!:confused: Well, good for them if They Got Screwed and are getting their s**t together a thumbs up for them!:)

Would be very interesting to get more Info on this Situation!

In all honestly I know of another situation like this, but it was AEPi's becoming ATO's.
I think it depends on the situation and the reason they disaffiliated with the orginal org.
Like someone said, maybe they'll be an asset.

This seems weird to me, but not as weird as I first thought. When I saw the thread title, I thought they had become A D Pi s, not Phis! (Of course, as far as I know, there is no rule against joining an NPC sorority and an NIC fraternity!)

i guess stuff like this happens when you don't love your organization.

LoL I thought the same thing!

When I first read the title all I could think was: " :o !!!!"

Then I read it again! :p ;)

That's very odd! Can they actually do that?

http://www.gamers-forums.com/smilies...yareontome.gif

Here's some more info, Tom! :)

SigEp had been on the chapter's case for a while concerning "falling numbers". But the chapter's numbers were quite good. Pledge classes here range from 9-20 guys, with numbers as high as 20 or above being VERY rare. The chapter had had I think 16, 15, 14 over the last few years. Every chapter has declining numbers because of the co-education thing I mentioned.

The SigEps always felt that their nationals were watching them very closely.

The chapter disliked their house mother and had really bad relations with her. This summer, they fired her.

The story goes that she called nationals and offered them proof (through pictures or videos or something) about the amount of drinking and types of behavior that went on at the house (which are pretty widely acknowledged to be quite mild for our campus). I don't know specifically what kinds of behaviors were portrayed.

SigEp nationals disbanded the chapter, citing a low GPA, alcohol abuse, "activities not in line with SigEp", and combative relations with the national HQ.

The SigEps began pursuing other fraternities. ADPhi won out because a member has a high school friend that helped recolonize the Amherst chapter.

As far as getting their isht together, we'll see. I think they're going to have a lot of trouble finding guys who want to pledge a house with no house and no cook (every other fraternity has one and typically the sophomores live in the house to fufill their second year living requirement. If not, sophomores have to live in the dorms). I've seen the affect already, because I think a lot more guys are trickling over to the Pike house this year. So who knows? I feel like it's not going to work out for the Alpha Delts but it would be nice if it did. They're definately great guys.

Re: SigEp brothers become ADPhis
 

If Alpha Delt is not in IFC then why is one of their members the IFC treasurer?

Ditto

There were some of the Members of NIC I beleive, decided to disaffiliate with this governing body because They felt is had done little or nothing for the good of Greek Fraternitys.

I cannot remember which ones that made that decision, but some well known Memebers. There was as I understand it, a lot of discussion amongst a lot of the others at the time.

ADPhi is a National Fratrnity for sure.

Now, the question as posted above, if they do go an Campus, if they can survive with the obsiticals ahead.

If there was no reason other than again posted above, then maybe a change was to be set into motion.

"Damn The Torpedos, Full Steam Ahead"!

Re: Re: SigEp brothers become ADPhis
 

Because he was elected treasurer when he was still a Sig Ep, I imagine.

I think the whole situation is a little sketchy, to be honest, but I definitely don't think Sig Ep handled things correctly either.

They got kicked out! SigEp kicked them out! They said "Hey, Captain Underpants, we're closing Virginia XYZ and you aren't a brother anymore." Would you love your organization after that?

Sometimes I wish that you would give as much respect to NPC/NIC orgs as we give to the NPHC orgs on GC. It goes both ways.

And like I said in the original thread, SigEp HQ has been putting insane pressure on a lot of chapters lately, and has some very unreasonable expectations, IMHO.

cool out. i never said anything about not respecting anyone. you're reading way too much into my statement.

if you act a complete ass, you're bound to have people pull your card on it. there's a reason why captain underpants isn't a national brother anymore. and obviously from the ways these boys have been acting, and the fact that they are just running to the first organization that picks them up...leads me to believe that all they really want is some letters. but then again, if Iota kicked me out..i'll be damned if i do anything else. that ish isn't even possible.

Re: Re: Re: SigEp brothers become ADPhis
 

Correct.

All I can say is...if this is because of what the housemother said, and they'd take the word of a disgruntled fired woman WHO ISN'T EVEN A BROTHER, that is absolutely sub-pathetic.

Well, word on the street is that she had videos depicting "questionable membership activities"---perhaps including hazing of some kind and pretty wild drinking. That is pretty much rumor, though. However, I think that the video claim is fairly substantiated.

Let me point out that SigEp did offer them alum status, but they rejected it.

I'm not taking sides here in the nationals-chapter debate, but I do think both sides were in the wrong to some extent. Ie, nationals would come in and they would make NO effort to get along with them. However, some of the expectations nationals had for them were not the best--ie the numbers thing. Their nationals wanted them to get like 25 guys--which is more than their house could hold and definately more than any chapter can get considering the size of our school.

I know for a fact that they did haze, also. Nothing bad considered in the big, overall scheme of W&L hazing (think cattle prods) but that was sort of lurking below the surface. I know of only 2-3 fraternities on campus that don't haze physically and none that don't haze at all. I don't support any kind of hazing, and even though the SigEps were pretty mild (probably considered "normal" even by a lot of the guys on GC) I don't think that helped--like a nationals guy came by one Hell Week and found pledges living in the basement of the house, totally sleep deprived, and put an end to it.

My impression of the SigEp nationals is that they are a LOT more watchful than many national orgs on our campus (probably the fact that we're only 2.5 hours from the HQ contributes). The Virginia Epsilon chapter was definately a great chapter, but I think in many ways they shot themselves in the foot by the way they interacted with and responded to their HQ.

Out of curiosity, was this lady just skulking around the house with a video camera trying to catch them doing something bad? Because that sounds pretty weird to me.

Maybe she was trying to make a porn: Balanced Men Gone Wild?

I am LMAO at s&s and GP...

I mean, by all accounts their former house mom was a wee bit crazy, anal, you name it... just REALLY out there. but she had evidence, it appears.:o

W & L Situation
 

First of all, the expectations from our national fraternity are not unreasonable. Sigma Phi Epsilon doesn't tolerate mediocrity, they expect their chapters to be among the best on campuses all over the nation-that's how we got to the top of the fraternity world, and that's how we're going to stay there, is Nationals' thinking. (I assume). I seriously doubt that nationals would disband a chapter and pull its' charter based simply on evidence from a disgruntled former housemom. The evidence might be enough to warrant sending the Regional Director (who is the rep for nationals to the different chapters in his region) and have him investigate, and if he finds sufficient cause, he'll walk out of the house with the charter. If they were hazing, then that's one strike against them, even if it was "mild". Nationals has zero tolerance when it comes to hazing, trust me. Having bad relations with nationals doesn't help, either. I've had to deal with our national fraternity, and it's not always fun, but they have always tried to help us improve when we've needed to, it hasn't been "you need to get better, or else". But, I guess I don't know all the particulars of the situation. I'm just speaking from my experience as a Sig Ep. I hope things work out well for the new ADPhis, and I hope they remember the oath they took when they were intiated into Sig Ep, cause if they don't, we've got a problem. I think y'all know what I mean.

In Phi,
Sigep653

Re: W & L Situation
 

I think you've done a pretty job of summing up the situation. A variety of things had happened, and the housemom's evidence was probably the final straw. If they'd fostered better relations with HQ all along, it might not have happened.

Assuming what you say is true, the W&L IFC, the Greek advisors, and the fraternities' HQs have their work cut out for them. Cattle prods? CATTLE PRODS? You know what I'm thinking about? The excellent comments made by JustaMom concerning her son's and son's friends feelings about rushing at LSU -- very anti-hazing, as I recall.

There must be great guys at W&L who don't like hazing, and I hope things get turned around there.

I think you'd be surprised. W&L being as Greek as it is, the majority of those are apply are probably at least somewhat familiar with the Greek system there before they even apply to the school. I imagine that quite a few of them know what kind of hazing takes place.

The problem is that once hazing gets ingrained in the campus culture it's hard to break the cycle. Even if one fraternity decides to change things and stop the hazing, the other frats look down on them and rushees will be hesitant to pledge because of that fact.

Uber-ditto

Well, the cattle prod thing was about 5-6 years ago now. The fraternity that did that was kicked off for a year and is now back. Their reputation did not suffer one bit and they draw lots of guys every year. They pull a lot of weight on our campus for various reasons. I'm not saying that they still cattle prod their pledges, but I wouldn't be especially surprised, considering that I hang out at the low-key houses and I know what goes on there...

There are some houses that don't haze as harshly. I know several houses that mostly do early morning runs and physical calisthenics and the like. And have their pledges dress up, carry around ridiculous items, etc. While I would never want my sorority to do those kinds of activities, in terms of W&L fraternity culture I feel like they're pretty harmless. Those are mainly the places I hang out. But the "best" houses (I use that term very loosely because I don't consider those houses as the best) are pretty intense in terms of pledgeship.

I'm not going to comment on any specific houses in terms of hazing, but I would say it's a very accepted fact of life.

In contrast, our sorority system is almost hazing-free, I'd say. We prize that here. :)

Under NIC rules, a man who was initiatied into ABC Fraternity can later be initiated in XYZ Fraternity if the inter/national office of ABC confirms in writing that the man is no longer a member of ABC (ie, he has been expelled or the like).

This would be why the article breathesgelatin quotes at the start of this thread focuses so much on the question of whether the letter to the chapter members is sufficient to establish that they are no longer members of SigEp.

The two fraternities that left the NIC last year are Phi Delta Theta and Kappa Sigma. Over the years, quite a few well-known inter/national fraternities have left the NIC and rejoined later.

It has to be remembered that the NIC is quite different from the NPC. The NIC has little if any "governing" authority and has little ability to make binding policy for its members like the NPC does. Rather, it is mainly an advocacy and support organization for member fraternities. Policies like the one that prevents Joe Blow from being initiated by a second fraternity until Joe's first fraternity confirms that he is no longer a member exist not because the NIC has imposed it per se, but because the member fraternities have agreed to the policy as a condition of membership in the NIC.

That's how our NPC "governs" us. Each of the 26 member sororities of NPC have to vote UNANIMOUSLY to enact a rule that governs us....such as the rule of one initiation and that's it, game over. Same thing with quota/total....it was agreed upon by the representatives of all the NPC groups. However, NPC has adopted more stringent agreements than the NIC has....sometimes I think that's because females aren't always as "laid back" as the males ;) :p !

PsychTau

Good for them. I would want to join another fraternity too if Nationals was like "you're done" and they said that to everyone, we would still all want to be brothers and hopefully not give up on being a fraterernity.

Re: SigEp brothers become ADPhis
 

Did Alpha Delta Phi used to have a chapter at WL?

Breathesgelatin -- and Sugar and Spice -- thank you for clarifying things for me! I really should have done more homework; then I would've realized that --

1. The Washington and Lee university policy statement against hazing is a sham

2. The W&L IFC policy statement against hazing is a sham, too. (By extension, can one conclude that the individual fraternities' anti-hazing policies are also more or less a set of lies -- or at least selectively applied?)

3. A highly selective, prestigious university like W&L knows what its students / applicants and their parents want.

4. Around three-quarters of the male students apparently want to be hazed -- and the more severe the hazing, the better, socially speaking.

5. Tradition rules.

So, hey, if that's what a bunch of overwhelmingly white upper-middle-class and upper-class guys and their families want and are willing to pay fairly big bucks for, who am I to object?

One small question -- how do they handle physical or emotional damage if/when it occurs? Student and alumni social pressure to hush it up? Alumni payoffs to keep parents and students quiet? Alumni and university officials working together to make sure the school's disciplinary processes are well-greased, or -- G*d forbid it should happen -- making sure the Virginia legal system is kept out of things?

Surely the chapters don't rely on insurance companies and their Nationals to handle the potential financial damage?

LOL!!

I'm speechless about this thing, though.

Calm down ;)

If SigEp expelled these young men, that's too bad.

But, joining another organization is "insane," in my opinion, and in the opinions of many others.

Just because you are technically ALLOWED to do something, doesn't mean that doing so makes a helluva lot of sense.

But, (as the old cliche goes when there's a difference in opinions, and some folks get unnecessarily excited) "to each his own."

:D

Re: W & L Situation
 

I think that statement sums up the issue that many folks have with this situation.

But, if they're no longer members of Sig Ep...especially if some of them MIGHT be pissed at Sig Ep...can folk be mad at them not remembering their oath?

Just playing CHAOS advocate, here.