Speaker
 

Hey all,
Yesterday, the greek community at MSU was audience to a really great speaker, David Stollman. Apparently, he speaks to greeks all over about recruitment, membership, stereotypes...all kinds of stuff. I was just wondering if anybody else on greek chat has heard him, and what you thought.

David came and spoke to us at a Panhellenic Summit. I thought he was awesome...good recruitment prep for us...

He only said one thing that bothered me a bit...he said "no one ever quits becase of the money" - one of my dearest sisters had to turn over her membership because her father lost his job and she didn't have enough money to stay a member...I felt so bad for her but there is nothing she, I, or we could have done...

Overall though, I thought he was amazing. I wish more people could hear him speak.

Is this the guy that's a Sig Ep? I'm 99.9% positive it was the same guy that spoke to us several years ago.

I was pissed off about the very same comment.
I had stood up to ask a question- saying that as treasurer, I know a lot about the financial difficulties some of our members have and the financial concerns of some of the new members and asking if he had any advice on handling that. Instead of giving some useful information, he made this comment rather snidely. There's only so much you can do in payment plans, etc. The majority of the kids from my school are from working class families- the other Pitt greeks on here can attest to that. Many have money issues. Actually, we had one girl who's dad was laid off and she was working 2 part time jobs to send money home to her family.

Especially when the economy's like it is, i think that this was such a ridiculous comment of his. Maybe he comes from a privileged background, but I sure don't, and 90% of my sisters didn't.

Yeah, when he made the comment about money he said that there is always SOME WAY to make money to pay dues...it's just how bad you want it...All I could think of is my poor friend selling herself on the street corner! That would NEVER happen of course, but that's the only way I could see someone making quick money like that...

But like I said, all of the other things he said were good...especially about formal recruitment and how every organization should COB year round...his big thing was something to this effect:

1. Meet people
2. Make them your friends
3. Introduce them to your friends
4. Introduce them to your organization
5. Offer them a bid.

He had a lot of good, valid points...but when he talked about groups that doubled and/or trippled membership in like 4 or 5 months, I just think that would be hard...but possible I guess.

Man, I would love to hear the response if he said that at one of the state schools.

and yes Danielle, he's a Sig Ep, I think from Penn or somewhere in the eastern part of the state.

I think you're taking that remark out of context though. When he spoke with us, he said, "Nobody ever quits because of the money. If they do, that means you're not offering enough for the money you're asking them to spend." And I think that point is legitimate.

If a sorority provided me with alumnae networking that almost guaranteed me a job after graduation, or at least some significant internship that would help me get a job, would I be more likely to shell out more money for it now, knowing that it would all come back to me?

If a sorority provided the sisterhood that I knew I couldn't live without, would I be willing to find a way to pay the dues?

The point he's trying to make is that, if your sorority was offering enough, you'd be willing to find ways to pay the cash -- whether that involves selling yourself on the street corner, taking on two jobs, going on temporary leave from the sorority to make some more cash, or taking out extra loans.

But most of our sororities don't offer enough to be worth selling ourselves on the corner. ;)

I think what bothered Danielle, and what would bother me, is the intimation that if someone doesn't do all those things to try and pay dues, it makes them a bad sister. It's well and good to say that you would shell out money for it, but sometimes even with payment plans, even with student loans, it's not feasible.

In addition, not every sorority has a "hardship leave" or "temporary alum" status, or one that can be achieved without jumping through hoops.

Isn't he a SigEp? If so and is the one I'm thinking of he's a good speaker

mine didn't. Phi Mu also doesn't have "inactive" status. When I left -- with a ton of bills I couldn't pay, and sorority at the bottom of the list -- there were a lot of hard feelings. A good sisters would find a way to pay her dues.

I did. It took two years, but I did.

Unfortunately I didn't get any of those friendships back, and as we all know, the friendships you make within your collegiate sisterhood are some of the most important you'll ever have.

Fortunately when things got so, so awful I ended up turning to things like GC and my national board and a sisterhood listserve. Those sisters didn't know me on a chapter level, so they didn't know what I didn't tell them -- that I was way behind on my dues, and had left my chapter on poor terms because of it. Getting to know those sisters let me develop sisterhood on a different level than just what I'd experienced in college.

I have an exboyfriend who still refers to them disparagingly as my "internet friends." It made me really angry for awhile, and then I was just kinda like, eh. They're my sisters anyway.

Point being: Sometimes there ISN'T a way. I needed my sorority SO BADLY then, and it offered me so much that I need to take advantage of THEN. But the money did get in the way.

yeah. This guy was a Sig Ep. Im pretty sure hes either from philly or maryland.

I SPEECHLESS. I know this guy. I took him to one of my formals.

He went to the University of Maryland and he was a Sig Ep. He was president of the IFC and remember him telling me he wants to be the first Jewish president.

Does he give speeches for a living?

This is unbelievable.

I won't say I'm very fond of him at all, however, I respected something he did.

At Maryland, back when ATMs were just becoming hot, there was LONG line for one that we were both in. The line went on forever.


And there was a woman with down syndrome, or something and she was struggling with the machine. And no one was helping her. (It was one of those machines that had buttons on the side and the bottom and can see with ATMs being so new could be very confusing). Anyway, I was about to step up and help her when this jack ass butted in front of her and was yelling at her for taking too long, being stupid, etc. And, Dave, in front of everyone bascially told him how "cool" he was for making fun of her in public, and really stood up to this prick. Dave is not what I would call a tall guy and this guy towered over him and Dave didn't back down.

And the girl got her money and walked away.

If you know more details about him, please pass them along. What a small world!

Dave Stollman spoke at Arizona State University 2 weeks ago, and had an effect on everyone. He really is a great speaker!

Yes, he makes a living doing speeches for Campus Speak. He seems just like the kind of person that would do that good deed for the girl at the ATM. You can get the contact info for him here:

http://www.campuspeak.com/speakers/dstollman/

I think it would be awesome to travel the country talking about one of your passions.

The thing is that he's not saying that anyone is a bad sister, and I'm surprised that that's the message that anyone got from his speech. If anything, he puts the blame on the chapter. The basic message is that a GLO, like anything else, is a product that a chapter needs to sell. And if someone cites money as an issue, that either means that you're charging too much or not offering enough. And since most of us don't have much control over how much dues are, the thing that is the biggest problem, and the thing we have to change, is what we're offering to our sisters.

He's not really saying anything all that controversial. The main point that he's trying to make is that we'd all pay more for a sorority with great sisterhood, girls we feel connected to, tons of fun social activities, a beautiful house, a well-stocked exam file, no hazing, insert whatever is important to you here . . . than we'd pay for one that was lacking all of those things.

I agree with that, and I think most of you would.

In most cases where money is an issue, it's not really the main issue. For example, in a case like the aforementioned girl whose father passed away, (and I clearly know nothing about the situation, but I'm guessing) chances are that she could have gotten the money somehow, but didn't want to deal with the stress of dealing with, say, another job at the same time as dealing with the stress of her father's death. In that case I think that her father's death was (and should have been! -- I'm not criticizing) her main priority over the sorority. It wasn't the money that was the real issue. Money was a minor issue combined with other bigger factors. All that Stollman is saying is that if you want or need something bad enough, you'll find a way to get it no matter how much it costs -- much like those homeless guys that walk around in $120 sneakers. ;) In this case it doesn't seem like sorority business was this girl's main priority (and again, I don't think it should have been at that point in time).

I still think it's controversial, I'm sorry.

Think of it this way: Having a place to live (not as a Greek, but as anybody) is one of the most important thing to any of us. We'll spend a huge percentage of our income if need be just to have a roof over our heads. Nevertheless, not everyone can afford it. Yes, there are homeless people out there.

Would you say that "houses and apartments just aren't offering the homeless enough"? Of course not. The truth is, anything that costs something will be out of financial reach to somebody.

Now I think there's a valid point that if a chapter has a *lot* of members dropping for financial reasons, financial reasons aren't really the problem. It's when you take that argument down to each and every member who leaves for financial reasons it's controversial.

The two really can't be compared. Housing is a basic need whereas a sorority is definitely not. The equivalent of "Nobody drops just because of the money" would be that "Nobody is homeless just because of the money," which is true. Nobody sits around and says, "OK, well, I used to have money but now I don't so I think I'll become homeless." Whenever somebody is homeless, there are deeper issues at play -- usually that they lack the skills to be able to pull themselves up. That is the bigger problem. The lack of money is, again, not the basic issue.

Not to mention that college students cannot be compared to homeless people because we have the inherent advantage of having at least a high school education or equivalent and marketable skills if not a degree, and they don't always have all or any of those.

The thing is, with sorority dues there is ALWAYS a way to pay. People overestimate how expensive they are. You don't have to be wealthy to manage it. Even the most expensive dues at my school could be covered by a 10-hour-a-week student gofer job. My own dues could be covered by a couple of plasma donations each week. Most college students could save a couple hundred bucks each semester if not more just by making lifestyle changes -- not ordering that late night pizza once a week, buying their textbooks used, not drinking so much :p. There is always, always a way to pay. Is that way always easy? Definitely not. I have friends who have worked a full-time job and a second part-time job in addition to going to school full-time just to be able to cover their expenses. Would I be able to do that under normal circumstances? No. Would I do it if I had to? Of course. And would I do it if I wanted something enough, and that something was expensive? Definitely.

But if a member decides that she can't pay $1000 a semester for an experience, she's saying, basically, that that experience is not WORTH $1000 a semester. That doesn't make her a bad person. It doesn't even make her sorority a bad sorority. But it does mean that she feels she was charged too much for what she got out of it.

[hijack]
Actually I read a study that said that a lot of homeless people DO have degrees and they are qualified geniuses. I thought it was an interesting fact. Most can't deal with day to day responsibilities because they think they are mundane. Did you know that Einstein couldn't tie his own shoes? :eek: That's just an example of how very intelligent people aren't privy to things like a mortage payment for instance.
[hijack]

Again, I have to disagree, there isn't always a way to pay, at least not a way our membership would approve of. Dues are pretty low at many schools, mine included, but at some they are off the charts. A couple pizzas won't cut it. And I know I sure as heck didn't order a couple of pizzas a week as an undergrad. My budget didn't stretch that far.

Sure, I suppose anyone could raise the money by something like prostitution or drug dealing, but if any GLO supports that they definitely aren't worth the price! And even something very ethical like working at Starbucks means, for some students, a substantial drop in GPA - and again, GLOs are about high academic standards as well. Quite honestly, if Alpha Xi Delta told me that being a member was worth having a much lower GPA, I'd question our values. A sorority is not supposed to be first in one's life; Theta Chi says it best with, "Alma mater first, and Theta Chi for alma mater."

I just really don't like generalized statements that don't give anyone the benefit of the doubt. To say that _no single person EVER_ quit a GLO for money is almost bound to be false. Can't we have a little charitable feeling for some of our former brothers and sisters? (Or were they really buying our friendship, and that friendship was cut off with the flow of dollars?) And for our own organizations? (If we have to offer enough value to keep in every perpetually unsatisfied sister we made the mistake of pledging, pretty soon a Nobel Peace Prize, a house in Paris, and George Clooney will be standard Little Sis gifts.)

1. Meet people
2. Make them your friends
3. Introduce them to your friends
4. Introduce them to your organization
5. Offer them a bid.

Ummhumm... Phi Sigs do these steps seem very familiar to you all ???

I also must disagree there isn't always a way to pay... as my parents used to say money doesn't grow on trees.. and true while A LOT of college students could find a way to pay for sorority if their parent's wouldn't help them there are a few that are in situations where they know they just can't make the committment or do have to quit because they are no longer in a place to make that committment aymore. I know we extended a bid a couple weeks ago and she declined because of money. The sisterhood respected that because no matter how much we offer payment plans and such if SHE knows she can't afford it and is being responsible enough to say so now, instead of a semester from now when she owes who knows how much money and it's adding up on her. We basically owe her a thank you for saving us a headache! It actually made us want her as a member more though because it shows that she takes the committment seriously and would most likely be a GREAT sister. :( MONEY SUCKS

Again, you're making things way too overly complicated.

If a sorority member decides that she can't pay the dues because her job is making her GPA drop too much, that doesn't mean the problem is the money. It means she values her GPA over her sorority experience. And nobody is saying there's anything wrong with that.

The money is still not the main issue in that hypothetical situation. I'm still waiting for someone to come up with a situation where it is.

If someone has work to pay her tuition and working enough hours to make get money for tuition is the only amount of hours she can put in because she needs time for school, money is the obstacle, there's only a certain amount of time during the day that you can work yourself for that sorority experience before it becomes a problem of just not enough money. I'm not sure if that made any sense once I typed it out, but I believe money IS the issue if all of your extra cash goes toward just even being able to have your butt in a chair during class.

So if a sister can't pay her dues, she should get her vital fluids pumped out every week and risk her health? I seriously hope you're joking. I have been anemic off & on since I was 13 - if I had to do plasma donations every week, I would be dead.

Also, for some people, attending college is a family affair. That is, EVERYONE in the family sometimes has to make sacrifices so the person can attend. I know that if I knew my mom, dad and sister had to give up things that are important to them just so I could be in a sorority, it would make me feel guilty as all hell. There are lots of people, probably some on here, that didn't go to the school of their dreams because of the impact it would have had on their family.

Not to mention the hits some families have taken with job losses, divorces, etc....you can literally go from living large to scraping by in a second.

People do quit because of the money, and they do give up things they really want and are getting benefits from, BECAUSE IT IS JUST NOT FINANCIALLY FEASIBLE. Anyone who thinks that is a bogus excuse needs to take their head out of the sand and look at the state of America today.

Damn, girl! JOKE! JOKE!

I think what sugar & spice was trying to say was that if you think creatively sometimes the unexpected is possible.

I have a bleeding disorder; plasma donations would be out of the question for me, too. But I could baby-sit at church for a couple hours every Wednesday.... or work in the bookstore on Saturdays... there are inventive ways to come up with $50 extra a week for just about everyone.

I'm pretty sure that this guy spoke at our school this year as well, and he was very well recieved. Last year we had two speakers that pretty much told us that everything was our fault and we were never going to get better (regarding greek life in general) which was a major downer. This guy was very well spoken, and his presentation was hilarious. Did he do this at any one else's school? (and if he did, you will know what I'm talking about)

"Be the Cow"

Thumbs up to you all, this is an excellent discussion.


.....Kelly :)

I have to agree with 33girl et. al....sometimes there just isn't a way.

Yes, if it's just a matter of working a few more hours a week, eating out a little bit less, etc... yes... it's a weak excuse to quit for financial reasons.

But I think more of the people who do are in serious financial difficulty that won't be improved by working 10 extra hours at the Stop N Shop. There are sorority members who are supporting their families by working full time while in school and still not getting by...should we blame them for not putting sorority above "food for parents"? What about medical conditions?

This gets me a little riled up, because I almost did turn in my letters for financial reasons. I got very sick a few years ago and was in and out of the hospital... racking up tens of thousands of dollars in medical bills. Should I have paid those first (credit which would affect me for the rest of my life, and possibly keep me from getting further treatment if I was overdue)? Or paid my sorority dues? Needless to say, I decided my health was more important than my membership. Luckily, my sisters were sweet and covered my dues for the year that I couldn't pay them.

But really... there is NOT always a way.

I'm going a little different direction.....
 

I have a question about Stollman's presentation, but not about money......

I saw his presentation last year at our convention, but I don't really remember this statement. Others who have seen him recently report that he says to bring recruits/rushees to your weekly meetings....give them a taste of what it's REALLY like on the other side;) .

So, what do you think about having your weekly business meetings open to recruits during the semester (assuming you are doing open bidding, not during formal recruitment)? This doesn't include meetings where ritual takes place (obviously!), but may include the guests standing outside while the ritual is going on, then coming into the room for the "business" part of it. How would a recruits attendance affect the way your meetings go now? What do you think are the pros/cons to this? Has anyone done this? How did it go?

PsychTau

ummmm, no.

While it isn't ritual per se, what if you are discussing things like discipline of a particular member or inter-Greek turmoil? If I was Susie up for termination, I would be very irked at the idea of random people hearing about it. And if you kept having to tell the rushees to leave the room, that would probably make them think all sorts of things, not to mention make them feel uncomfortable.

and then there's the other half of meetings, which is just plain boring or full of things only the members understand.

I have never seen David Stollman speak. But these 5 steps have been the official NIC approach forever lol.

The difficulty is that most chapters don't do this in an organized systematic way.

If you're discussing the termination of a member in a chapter meeting -- you're openning yourself up for lots of problems! Yikes.

PsychTau -- I think it's an interesting concept. It's definitely "outside the box" and something to consider.

umm, how else would it be decided? I certainly hope not just by the standards board...

Oh, I don't know...maybe a public stoning? LOL Nah, to each his/her own. I guess we all have different procedures.

Ditto. YIKES :eek:

at any rate...that was just an example. (I am getting the thread off this track before people start having cows) My point was, things may be discussed in meeting that deal with specific members, whether they be good bad or indifferent, and Sue or Jane or Molly may not want anyone but their sisters to know. I know a lot of groups have pass the gavel or a sunshine jar where everyone can talk or leave notes...even though some of the things were fun and silly, I would not want non-members to hear them.

Humm... well I guess his point makes sense that they will find out what it's like to attend a meetings and that's importatnt since you don't want members that dont' want to do that part of belonging and then they can figure out if it's somethign they can deal with, but I know Phi Sig does have "ritual" meetings and non members can't attened those (not even new members can be in the room for portions of them) but for us, if it was an informal business meeting... then I don't see why not, I think it depends on your org. if that will work for you..... It sounds like this guy is going around teaching people Phi Sig's Vision recruitment program to me...

Those 5 steps are older than most people on GC. We have them in a Rush Manual from the early 80s.

As for the money thing - there are very few cases were money is truly the issue. In my opinion, the girls who are working 2 jobs to send money home to their family and paying all their own tuition probably aren't going to rush anyway, and if they do, how quality of a member would they be if they work 60 hours a week and are trying to keep a 3.0 to keep their scholarship? Like it or not, financial commitment is part of a GLO.

Dave Stollman spoke at SIUE about two weeks ago and was very well received here. He speaks about a lot more than just the five steps of recruitment. I heard that myself back in the 80's also. He lays out a way to organize your recruitment around it, and make it work.

Also, I think everyone is reading too much into his statement about money. Money is very often used as an excuse for not joining or for quitting an organization. Sure there are people who are supporting family members, but the reality is they are a small percentage. Many organizations also have "crisis" funds or something similar to help members out in emergency situations. But we all know people who claim to be in financial problems but who still seem able to go out and blow money on something they want.

Ditto.

Kath and I did the math. Here it is in black and white, based on a 16-week semester:

Give plasma 2 times a week at 25 bucks a pop (yes, I know college students who do this, although not to pay sorority dues :p): $800 (save up through the summer and there's another 800 bucks in it for you)
Buy books through one of those online half-price places: you save about $150-200 on average
Go to free fraternity parties instead of buying a $5 cup at a house party once a week, or don't drink at all: $80
Skip going out to eat every other week (most college students I know eat out more often than that): at least $80, depending on where you eat
Asking for someone to pay part of your dues for Christmas or your birthday instead of getting presents: depends entirely on how much your family generally gives for presents, but could cover up to your whole dues

etc. etc. It adds up.

Will all that apply to every person? No. There's a lot of people who can't or won't do these kinds of things. But if the sorority is something you want bad enough, you will be willing to make some sacrifices. That's all that is being said. You can't say, "Oh, well I can afford to join a sorority . . . because I would rather buy four Kate Spades than pay the dues." The problem there is more about what you want to afford than what you can afford.

All these side situations that people keep bringing up (her dad died, she has to support a family) are not only fairly uncommon, but have less to do with the money than they do with other issues.

I'm sure you meant twice a month. It is physically impossible to give blood twice a week. Your body couldn't handle it and you would more than likely die or go into shock. Here the blood donation centers only allow you to give blood once every two weeks tops. Just FYI

I've known people who do it twice a week, so who knows what that's about. But okay, if the center doesn't let you give plasma more than twice a month, that's still $200 over the course of the semester and $200 more from the summer.

Edited to add: This website says it is safe to donate twice a week.

http://www.biolifeplasma.com/en/dona...lasma/faq.html