The Black Elite
 

Sorors & SF's,

Has anyone read the book Our Kind of People? I think that's the name of it, by Lawrence Graham. I hope I have that down, but anywho... I have been reading bits and pieces of that book, and many parts of it distress me. I was wondering how you all feel on the topic of the Black Elite, or elitism at all for that manner. I feel like in striving to have more (and there is never anything wrong with that), our people many times try to emulate White Americans (slave mentality, another post for another day). This one lady in the book even said that if [affluent] White people don't associate with middle/lower class/blue collar whites, so why should she associate with those same Black counterparts? The idea of separatism based on class is simply beyond me, but I would like to get a better understanding of it, regardless of whether I agree with it.

So help me sistas! Is anyone in here from an elite social class family? Any one's mom a Link? Summers on Martha's Vineyard? Were you in Jack and Jill growing up?

I can't wait to see your responses!! This whole thing is so interesting to me!!!

Yes I have read that book, and like you I became very interested in the topics that he brought up. I always knew that there were well to do black people in America but I did not know much about them. I am not at all from that class of people. Some of their ways and beliefs may seem strange to those on the outside, looking in. Yet I have a lot of respect for these people for what they accomplished during a time when "they" were not supposed to be successful.

Yes, I too read the book, and while informative, the mentalities represented in many parts of the book were distressing. Before I used to think of the Black Elite as the "talented tenth", that group of people destined to help uplift the race...

But it seems that as Blacks have been able to enter the middle/upper class arenas, we have become seduced by new wealth, and have forgotten that it was those same concepts that we now subscribe to (capitalism, or the "I'm out for mine" syndrome) that enslaved us in the first place. I admit that I struggle with this because I too want to be successful...and I don't think there is anything wrong w/ that. I think the problem comes when we are so happy and complacent w/ our own success, that the suffering of our brothers and sisters no longer affects us.

Then there are those of us who no longer feel any sense of responsability for our people...but like you said, another post, another topic!

Peace is not the absence of trouble, but the presence of God

http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/confused.gif This made me check myself you guys. I'm far from having alot, I'm sorta living pay check to pay check, but I know for a fact I kinda turn my nose up at certain people. I don't like to involve myself with all those "ghetto" fabulous people who smoke weed, drink to get drunk, or folks that are just way too loud and common. The first thing they tell me when I say "No thanks" to invites to be around that sort of crowd (Be it a club or otherwise)is that I think I'm too much. That's just not my "Cup of tea" if you know what I mean.

Don't get me wrong, I love to have a good time, I'm really silly sometimes http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif, but good clean fun. Sometimes I feel a little guilty because some pople have been brought up thinking that's cool and know no better, where as others may be drinking or doing drugs to hide or drown out certain sorrows. Do you think I'm thinking I'm "All That" because I choose not to deal with these types?

Exquizit, I don't think that you think you're all that b/c you choose not to associate yourself with that crowd. But I think it's a totally different situation if you literally turn your nose up at them. I can completely understand not allowing certain types of energy into your life. But that's very different than completely disassociating yourself with a group of people based on how much money they make or how much money their parents made, or what organization they belong to. This book actually talks about making a judgement on a person's character based on their social class. So in answer to your question, no, I don't think that you think you're all that just because that's not your type of thing to do. I think that you are more so disassociating yourself with the actions of the people rather than the people themselves. Wow, this can get kinda confusing. http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/confused.gif

BrandNubian,
The Links is an organization of Black women. I don't know much about it, only what I read in the book. It is a very selective sisterhood that does work in the Black community, and requires extensive hours of community service in our communities. Each chapter only has 55 members, and membership is by invitation only, and is only extended if an opening becomes availabe. So, only if a chapter member dies, relocates, or resigns (which is rare). Women normally join well after college, usually in their 40's or 50's. I think that's what the book said. I hope this helps!

Along those lines, I'd like to know who the wealthiest African-American is, and their net worth!

i read the book, it was informative and gave a rather realistic portrayal of some black elite mentalities some that still exsist even today. we all know money tends to bring out the worst in some people. but their success during that time period is commendable none the less.

This may be a stupid question, but in the begining of the book, the author lists the a few of the 'haves' and the 'have-nots'. Why is Bill Cosby listed as a 'have-not'? What about the others?
-Teresa

Maybe Bill is listed as a "have-not" because he ACQUIRED his wealth. He was not BORN wealthy. So he would not be in the same league as those whose wealth has been in families for 2, 3 and 4 generations...

He WAS NOT born with a SILVER SPOON in his mouth...

If I am not correct, someone, please correct me...

NO, I have not read the book...

Bill probably is listed as a Have-Not, because his "wealth" was ACQUIRED, you know he was not BORN with a SILVER SPOON in his mouth. I have not read the book, but I would assume that Michael Jackson and Oprah would be on that list as well.

If I am wrong, please correct me!
THANKS IN ADVANCE...

(Sorry this is kinda long)

I have to agree with what Poplife was saying. I have read parts of Otis Graham's book and it was somewhat interesting to me that Graham himself didn't really participate in this lifestyle because his family sheltered him and he attended some "ivy league" school that didn't have the traditional Af-Am organizations... I guess I took his perspective as somewhat jealous 'cuz he didn't get a chance to live this "black bourgeois life" like so many of his peers.

Hey, Poplife, what coast are you on? I ask 'cuz I'm on the west coast. Ironically, there a bizarre kinda "bourgeois" out here. There is the "true-to-life" Black folks that have the heritage--most live in the fabulous houses in "Baldwin Hills" on the correct side of the mountain in LA... Or "Altadena/Pasadena", California or (I forget which part) in Oakland. Those are the folks that homesteaded to the west coast, like right after emancipation and set up a livelihood so well engrained in the "Hollywood-Gold Rush" lifestyle. "A Devil in a Blue Dress" addresses some of that...

Then there is the "nouveau-riche" negroes that are "classless" when it comes to obtaining items. Meaning, they can name all the most expensive items on Rodeo Drive and they probably can afford plenty of those items, but they are purely consumers when it comes to owning real property... Some folx call them the "ghetto-fabulous"... Most of us elitist don't like them 'cuz they often sell us out to the highest bidder... (OJ Simpson, perhaps)

I live more south of LA and not Orange County... The bougie black folx where I'm from are spread out now. 30-40 years ago, they use to live in one place, but now, they live all over with beachfront property. However, because of the severe, institutionalized racism, most black folx still go to this one beach probably 'cuz it was the only beach "they" use to allow "us" to go... And "they" racially profile us to this day!!!

As far as the elitist Blacks go, at least in my city, there are some that's got and there are some that's not... One woman was recently murdered by her husband 'cuz they were tryin' to keep up with the "Jones'"...

However, most folx in Cali, kinda know their "roots" and don't forget too much about it. Or rather, the cops really don't allow you to forget your place... YES, Cali, 'specially, SoCal, is super-duper racist--it like, dayum, y'all may as well be the Kard Karrying Kind with your hoods on!!! Y'all don't think so. Tell that to Rodney King...

Hey Monet,

My family lives in the DC area (but that's not where I am because of school). So I was raised on the East Coast.

I own a copy of the book and I didn't realize that that I grew up around the black elite. Half the kids in my town are J&J kids, my family friends tell my mother she should apply to be a Link, and my dad goes to the Vineyard with his best friends (but he has never taken me or my sister). I didn't know that so many people around me were members of the old guard...to me it was just a known way of life.

I have a good friend that was in Jack and Jill growing up and she is third generation member of "the right sorority." http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif Her mother is the ONLY black judge in their county and her dad is an anchor man for a local news station. Despite what the book says she is down to Earth, friendly, and realistic. She actually inspires me because she is culturally, socially, and politically aware as well as dedicated to her family, friends, studies, and sorority. She has friends of all races and backgrounds.

Not all black elite's emulate white society. My town chapter of J&J has quite a few Afrocentric community events each year. We also had a program called Project A.F.R.I.C.A every Saturday and you just weren't with it if you did go. *lol* There were a lot of Link moms that were teachers for that program. There were a lot of upper-class black children there, but there were also middle/lower class children that came as well. It was a city thing...

I love my town and I am very proud of it. It very rare to see a large BLACK community where 80% of the people are professionals, where most of the kids go to college, and where most of the people VOTE and GET ACTIVE. I love driving down the street and seeing nice houses that have lovely lawns, nice cars in the driveway, and smiling at the little BLACK children playing outside in the yard.

Still, my family is not what a lot of people would called elitist. My mom says she's not a Links type of person and my dad rejected sponsorship for me and my sister to join J&J. His reasoning was that we lived in an upwardly mobile back community and if we wanted to socialize with upwardly mobile kids all we had to do was go to school.


When I tell people where I'm from some of them say "Oh you think you cute" or "Ya'll some bougie negros." Sometimes people automatically assume I can't relate to them. If I hear one more brotha call me "rich girl" it's ON!! *lol* Anyone that knows me knows that I'm the type of person to befriend anyone that appeals to me. That goes beyond finances and breeding.

But in the real, they can call me whatever they want. I'm glad I came from where I did. Without the knowledge that I learned from my environment I don't know if I would be the person I am today.

Hope this helps your interest.

[This message has been edited by Poplife (edited December 04, 2000).]

Ideal08:

This topic is interesting to me too!!! It's one of the books on my must-read list. http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif But, maybe I'm kinda slow...but what is a Link? http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/confused.gif

Cosby is from the 'hood...North Philly, my hometown.



------------------
MCCOYRED

Dynamic
Salient
Temperate

Mu Psi '86
BaltCo Alumnae

My impression of the book, and others like it (check out E. Franklin Frazier's much earlier, more academic critical piece, Black Bourgeoisie ), is that one's heritage (meaning, who your parents, grandparents and great-grandparents were/are), where you went to summer camp, school, what organizations you joined, etc., were more important than actual money you possessed. I view this like I view European royals, who are oftentimes broke, but are still considered elite because of their lineage. Thus, people like Bill Cosby and others who didn't come from these kind of families will never be considered true elites, by those diehards. Others in these circles may accept them, because of their ties to black greek and social orgs. and/or commitment to black causes and institutions (like black colleges).

I really don't get upset by this, because in my view, it is human nature to self-segregate on the basis of many things-race, class (caste system in India), profession (the guilds of Europe, the secret societies of Africa, Masonry at its inception, etc.), interest-on and on. Why would blacks in this country be any different, even if they don't hold seats at the real table of power? This notion that we should always be united because of our skin color is a newer one, certainly not exhibited with any consistency in our mother continent, or anywhere else in the world.

Then there are those of us whose parents put themselves through school, (or went through on the backs of some steel mill, car factory, shoe-shining, "washing white folks floors", stockyard-working mamas and daddies), sent us to great schools and provided good homes, put us in orgs. like Jack and Jill, but whose heritage doesn't qualify for elite status. To continue the European class system analogy, I guess we're the "merchant class," (for those of you who remember that unit of Western European history!). But because our foreparents were sharecroppers, washerwomen, porters and the like, we'll never be quite there, no matter how much we acquire or what orgs. we join. Oh darn!!!!!

I got the overall feeling that while the author can claim significant black elite heritage, it's not quite enough to be considered such by all those in that crowd. Even his Boule membership doesn't do the trick. And he is really upset by that.

Interesting...

[This message has been edited by Discogoddess (edited December 05, 2000).]

ha ha, that's funny cause i didn't get the impression that the brother was bitter about not being completely obsorbed into the elite system, rather to me it seemed he thought it to be just simply the way he grew up and he was trying to share it with those of us on the "outside" so to speak. it didn't seem to me that he was all that interested in being associated with that lifestlye, since he basically went the opposite of his peers by attending a predominately white university and even marrying a non greek. today although some may still look at lineage, i believe the amount of wealth and individual class, college degree, organizations etc. that a person has can get you in many of these circles (if you desire). I mean if Bill and Camille Cosby and she's tight are not elite enough for ya then i don't know what is http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif folks need to stop trippin http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/frown.gif

I read this book and I felt that it was a very interesting read. I consider myself pretty well read and I picked up a few new facts http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif.

I think that the author is "looking in" at this "Elite Society" rather than describing what its actually like to be a part of it. On a side note, I think that his book "Member of the Club" was much better.

I know folks that belong to most of the organizations mentioned in the book and they are just "regular" people to me. Unfortunately, the manner in which the book was edited seems to slant towards the "snobbiness" (perceived or real) by people.

I don't think that all of the people are "emulating white people". Its a matter of how you are raised and what you have experienced. I know folks that "have old money" and are as down to earth as you can be. AND.....I know some folks who are , well aren't monied and they are as snobby as you can get (Remember Regine from Living Single?)

I guess I'm just saying what Ms. Discogoddess already pointed out. Black folks are not a monolithic group and most groups self segregate based on heritage.

Did anyone see "Anyday Now" Sunday on Lifetime? Same topic was discussed.

My favorite show! I hope it doesn't suffer the fate of "City of Angels" so soon!

LOL! Soror, my mom is a Link, but so am I...and I'm only 32, which I must admit, does make me one of the younger Links.

Ideal,
Thanks for the topic. You just gave me a great idea for a fellowship i'm applying for.

kisses,
May I ask what school you attended? I ask because my alma mater had/has the same rep, but I found, for the most part, for it to be untrue while I was a student there.

I think I know what school you're talking about. I have a friend there.

No prob!!

As if we NEED another enemey trying to divide us! Throughout our time here in this country, generation after generation, we black folk have allowed other groups' problems to affect us; and it's impact always is magnified tenfold when it's with us. WEB Dubois and his theory of which direction we should go after Reconstruction vs. Booker T's idea; then there was the brother from Jamaica with THE BLACK BEAUTY, a ship that would take us all back home to Africa; then there was the Separation vs. Integration argument; then Martin's non-violent way vs. Malcolm's way; then wannabees vs. jigaboos and finally rich needroes vs. all other needroes.

Being black use to not be an option; today-with that kind of discussion going on-it may be.

Ideal,
I have read the book and I felt that in a lot of ways it was very acurate. I attended a an HBCU with a reputation of snobbiness. There was a large number of students who had parents that belonged to Links and were Jack and Jill members. I was not even close to living that type of life when I was growing up. Consequently, I often felt out of place at school. Some of these people were just like anyone else while some of them were very uppity. Often times people just assumed because I attended that school that I too had that mentality. However, just as stated before, Blacks often times fall into the materialistic, classist devisive mentality that whites have. I think Mr. Graham was merely giving us a chance to see a segment of our community that is often off limits to the average African American.

------------------

You know what I have found?

I hope I don't step on anyone's shoes....

Many of the people I knew who's parents were the "So-called elite", today, they (the kids) aren't doing better than anyone else! In fact, some of them, I know are "barely getting by, BARELY MAKING IT". Even a STATISTIC!

I know WHO I AM AND WHOSE I AM! That's just as Elite as being a Link, SLINK, DINK, OR FINK! LOL; AND having my kids in Jack and Jill, PILL, LILL, OR DILL! LOL LOL

In the END, ALL OF THIS WON'T MATTER! THAT WILL ONLY BE SECONDARY!

I know what you mean. I grew up around a lot of "Jack and Jill" kids and they went to the same university that I did. When we graduate we will be going to the same law schools, med schools, grad schools, etc... The point is, this new economy has made a lot of 'new rich' and the Clinton admin. made it a lot easier for poor kids to go to college. I think all that elitist stuff did matter in the past but now it kind of obsolete!

-Teresa

Could it be a generation thing? Could it be that the parents of today spoiled their children in so many ways(i.e. not makin' them clean up, GIVING their children money MOST of the time-instead of MAKING THEM EARN IT, etc.)?

YAH KNOW!!!! I'm like DAYUM!!! These are the kids that are SUPPOSED to make it!!! Instead, it's the opposite!!! The kids I grew up with... Ghetto games 2000... Few, and I can count them on my fingers, are where we are s'pose to be at in our lives... The other ones--crack addicts, one killed himself, have 4 kids by different men before the age of 25, homeless, strugglin' with the drug crystal meth or ECSTASY... Arrested for raping somebody. Contracted HIV thru IV drug use... Gave it to 5 different partners... Just dumb stuff. It kinda hurts 'cuz the outta of the men, their ain't nobody to date. Then outta the women, the bruhs don't wanna date so they date other women with less problems. My friends and I are always discussing that constantly because now we're at the age group that are supposed to start taking leadership positions in the city... Oh well...

Bump
 

As usual, the ol' lady is late to the party, but I bought Our Kind of People last night at a Borders in Orange County :eek: and started reading it. I'm already up to the chapter that discusses Sigma Pi Phi.

I can see where members of the post-1913 NPHC organizations would be p****d at Mr. Graham's analysis. There was also a big error in his list of NPHC organizations. The book was published in 1999, three years after Iota Phi Theta was admitted to the NPHC, he or his editor should have caught that.

It's been a learning experience for me. I want to read the chapter about black elite in Los Angeles, because I think I may have peripherally known a few of these people when I was at USC.

I purchased and read the book in 1999. Like alot of you I wasn't familiar with alot of "our folk" going to Martha's vineyard's and etc. The only folks I knew who captivated that territory were The JFK clan.
Nevertheless, I'm glad this topic was brought up because I got the feeling by reading the book that Mr. Graham has some issues. I believe (I'm not sure) that he has had plastic surgery to alter his appearance. I was trying to find a site on him about 4 weeks ago.

I purchased the book as soon as it came out (hardcover). I caught the Iota thing too. I think it's a good read for those not familiar with these type of orgs.

I volunteer with the Northern California Sickle Cell Community Health Network (by way of the summer camp). Not to long after I purchased the book, there was a national sickle cell conference here in San Francisco. So, a lot of Dr's, PhD’s, etc..were attending this event(mostly Af-American). I volunteered to register participants and brought the book with me for those slow moments.

Well, I'm sitting there behind the table reading when two women came up to me and questioned me about the book. I don't remember all of the conversation however I do remember one of the women stating that her grandmother was interviewed for the book and although she[the grandmother] was one of the MANY anonymous people quoted in the book, she didn’t appreciate the way Mr. Graham quoted her. Then the two women just walked away.http://www.plauder-smilies.de/sad/nixweiss.gif Okayy...whatever.

What I say is take the book for what it is. Written archived information. Use the information to your advantage or don’t.

Speaking in general terms, our black elite may not have the best attitude towards others in lower economic/social classes but they hold high positions in our society i.e.; CEO's of fortune 5 companies, judges, corporate lawyers, etc..If they(black elite) weren’t there, the black masses would be complaining about not being represented.

Every ethnic group of people in America has its elite. Why can't we?

FYI
It's interesting that this thread was bumped up because I just mailed off my copy to a friend in Nashville who hasn’t read it yet. :)

I didn't even realized that it was an older thread until I posted and noticed the dates:( :( . But it still is a good topic!

Re: Black Elite
 

Back in MS, I dated a guy who was, by my small hometown's standards, one of the elite. now by the book's standards, they would not b/c they were not born rich. His family lived in a big house in the "good" (read:white) part of the town and his father was the vice president of one of the few factories too. His mom was in a lot of the prominent (white) organizations and was heavily involved in the school system's politics. However, I guess some of the "old guard" didn't like her too much because she tried to join one of the "right" sororities and got denied. She hated my guts because she felt that I wasn't the "right kind" for her son. I think this was b/c I attended a state school and had a child while her son attended a HBCU that had a snotty rep as one SF stated earlier. When her son wanted to marry me, she lost her mind and started pushing all kinds of "suitable" girls on him. When that didn't work, she cut him off financially and he almost had to drop out of his fancy school. In the end, he decided that money and security and making the "right" impression were more important than love. One of our mutual friends e-mailed me and told me that the guy had married the "right" kind of girl and he is unhappy. He is in a career that his parents thought was "right" for him and he works for his father now. He also tried to join one of the "right" fraternities and was turned down. Our friend passed on some info about how I was doing and when his mother heard about it, she didn't sound at all happy that the "wrong" kind of girl is doing so well for herself. :D

for more information on The Links:

http://www.linksinc.org

I think Mr. Graham wrote a book about ten years ago when he was impersonating a waiter and worked at a country club, is this the same book?

His wife was recently featured on the cover of Black Enterprise, she's some bigwig at a telivision/cable company.

It's not the same book, Soror. The impersonation book's Member of the Club: Reflections on Life in a Racially Polarized World.