On hazing
 

I don't understand how so many people can be complaining about hazing when joing a GLO. I went through two different types of hazing. The non GLO hazing was much worse than anything that happened to me upon being initiated into a GLO.

When I was 16 I became a lifeguard at the beach where I lived. They did all kinds of crazy stuff to us. We were made to run 4 miles with a dip in our mouths and we had to run side by side down the beach. Everytime we had to spit the spit would fly into the face or land on the person next to us. People were throwing up on each other from the dip, which then caused others to throw up and we had to run while all this was going on. We could not stop. There were a lot of things done to us. When people become lifeguards many people from the city come out to check us all out. The guys who were already in dressed us up in dresses, put white crisco in our hair and made it all spikey. Then they put skittles in our hair to make it have all different colors. This was while the people from the city were out watching us. On top of that, the older guys got cases of cases of eggs. With our hair all goofy, they made us take off our dresses and wear only a bathing suit. The they lined us all up and started throwing eggs at us, in front of all the people. We were all crouched down in a fetal position while being nailed with eggs. Some of the shit head lifeguards tried to really screw us and made hard boiled eggs and were throwing them. Those really hurt. I had welps on me for a week. Later that night we also had to do something else. The older guys had a girl, who was a total slut, and they were all having a tag team with her....a gang bang. We had to be in it too. I was 16 yrs old, I was scared to have a gang bang. I think it's was mainly because I didn't think I had the biggest penis being only 16 and all. That was just some of the stuff we went through. But it was worth it in the end. Lifeguards eat free at most places at the beach, never pay to get into any clubs and most clubs at the beach would give you free drinks all night long.
It was so awesome having so many guys being like brothers to me. To this day, when I go home, I still see many of them. I still get all the luxuries of being a lifeguard when I go home. And by having that bond, that was one of the reasons why I joined a GLO when I go to college.

When I got to college and joined a GLO, I thought the hazing was weak. Some guys were scared. I remember a few of them asking me in the dark "Whats going to happen to us?" My pledge class was the last of our chapter to have a hell week. I'm not going to spill what happened there, but it was nothing like the stuff I went through being a life guard. These days, there is basically no hazing in my old chapter, there might be pyschological hazing...but nothing physically like what we went through. And thats one of the things were I think it's messed up. I think hazing does create a bond, in a wierd way.

I also have a friend who went to West Point, the military school. The stuff done to him was literally out of this world. I couldnt imagine going through the crapp he did, and he's 2 yrs older than me. After finishing school at West Point, he came to my college and joined my chapter GLO. He too thought fraternity hazing is weak and should be how it once was.

What are some of your thoughts of it all? Is hazing really all that bad in a GLO, compared to the way other organizations haze?

My fraternity doesn't haze. We don't even ask associates to pick up the phone if it rings.

I don't really understand why some organizations haze. I certainly wouldn't call someone my "brother" if he made me do things like the chew run. That's f-ed up.

EDIT: Censored myself, I swear like a sailor.

I know it is. And I was 16 yrs old!!!!!! Imagine some little kid going through all of that. At the time I didn't think I was a little kid, looking back I now realize how much I didnt know. At the same time though, it made me the bomb azz mofo with all the girls in my grade. They all wanted to date me because I was a life guard, straight pimpin. I got a lot of sex out of it. However, to this day I cannot stand to smell, dip, or even look at Copenhagen snuff. I get sick each time I'm around it.

The fact is, there should be no hazing AT ALL.

From an organizational standpoint this is a no-brainer. How would you like your chapter shut down because the national org lost a huge lawsuit because someone in a chapter not even in your state let their hazing get out of hand?

It hasn't happened yet, but it very easily could. Lawsuits threaten to wipe us all out. If there was strong hazing, weak hazing, pseudo-hazing, whatever.. it should not happen.

Just deny all accusations. Simple. Do you really think that the rest of the chapter will spill their guts in a court of law just because one guy couldn't handle it?

I would never respect or care for anybody who abused me, let alone feel "sisterhood" toward them. I don't think that sharing a traumatic experience (imposed by sisters/brothers) is grounds for true sisterhood/brotherhood. Can you just hear a husband or wife saying "Well, my spouse throws hard boiled eggs at me and makes me run while I chew tobacco but it just makes us love each other all the more"??? Or how about... "Gosh, I'm so close to my (biological) brother because he used to humiliate me in public".

That's just screwed up thinking.

Dee

Where I went to school there was a sorority who had 2 pledge classes, if you will. One half that wanted to be hazed and the other didn't want to be hazed.

I was a legacy at this particular sorority and they weren't even in consideration for me because of what appeared to be a mess. Apparently the year before, there was action taken against the chapter for reported hazing incidents.

So their response was to divide the pledge class in two.

Hello?

I asked the women then who pledged why they would want to be hazed and for them, it was a test of mental and physical strength. It was also a tradition that they looked forward to.
They grew up hearing "war stories" and they saw it as a challenge and opportunity to earn their own battle scars.

On the same subject, there are men in fraternities who choose to be branded like cattle by a branding iron with their fraternity symbol on it. There are fraternity branding irons on Ebay!

Here's my question--is it hazing if they CHOOSE or DESIRE a certain kind of treatment? Obviously it is hazing if it's a written or unwritten requirement of membership. But what about those who want this?

Follow up: I spoke to some people who were hazed (and who went into it knowing there would be severe hazing). One said that "20 years later, I have not forgotton who did what to me. I secretly still harbor some animosity for those people." Another said that it wasn't the same chapter members who did the hazing--it was members from another chapter who came in for their initiation night who did the worst hazing and that's who they resent. Apparently this was designed so that there wouldn't be animosity within the local chapter.

An example of hazing they told me: The pledges had to lie on the floor in a row. A raw egg was cracked and placed in the first pledge's mouth. The pledge had to put it in the next pledge's mouth and so on. The last pledge had to spit the egg in a bowl.

(I was given permission to share what I did as long as the organization remained anonymous.)

I am glad I pledged AOII where pledgeship and initiation week were a pleasure! I got more presents for I-week than I did for Christmas that year!

I have debating the whole thing about hazing for quite some time now. Is it considered hazing if you willingly do something that would be outlandishly ridiculous to some people? Girlene, I completely agree with the statement you made. And that one example you provided reminds me sort of a scene in this Japanese film called Tampopo. Except in that case it was just between a man and a woman who were obviously turned on by the whole thing. That entire movie was weird. Anyhow, I think the term hazing can be such a broad word sometimes. I know that my sorority doesn't haze. So where does one draw the line?

The problem with hazing is that there's really no univerally accepted definition.

From organization to organization, standards are different.

Is it hazing? Check your organization's rules as well as those of your state.

Things we all did a few years ago can now get you sentenced to jail and a big fine.
 

In these days, the colleges and the Natl. GLOs are immediately suspending any fraternity which is accused of hazing, or anything close (re: DU at Nebraska, suspended for a photo of two actives who traded swats and had blood red butts). The quick action is aimed at sending a message to other chapters who might be doing something similar.

The colleges and GLOs have paid out fortunes in a bunch of hazing law suits, and have got to get hazing under control.

If you do a Google News search for 'hazing', or look at www.badjocks.com, there are now daily cases of sports team, cheerleading, and band hazing and law suits.

Things we all did a few years ago can now get you sentenced to jail and a big fine.

But there is..and always will be. Kids dont learn or know any better.

For example in Alabama if you are caught in any hazing related activity, you could possibly loose you finicial aid.

Well that doesn't mean crapp to most Greeks.

Possibly, but your statement that kids don't learn or know any better is a cop out.

Kids *can* learn and will even listen given the appropriate circumstances. Want proof? Just look at GLO's and how successful we have been at virtually (I said virtually) eliminating hazing in our organizations. Most of us here can say without doubt that our chapters do not haze. So why is it that there will always be hazing?

If they're smart they will. Be honest, are you really ready to go to jail for something as stupid as comitting perjury?

I know that it sounds noble, but is it really worth a criminal record?

If you haze, you've already broken one law -- it doesn't make sense to break more.

And, from a moral standpoint, you've taken an oath to tell the truth.

I wasn't saying that any greeks would give a crap, but it is just something to think about.

Oh, but it does. I go to Jacksonville State in Alabama, where I think approximately 95% (that could be wrong, but the number is extremely high) of all students are on some form of financial aid, be it government money or scholarships. Our Greek population does not make up the entire leftover 5%. I'm on a full tuition scholarship myself, and without it, I would not be in college. So if I'm ever faced with the choice of "Do I want to make the choice to keep my scholarship, thereby staying in school and making something of myself, or risk losing not only my scholarship, but my livelihood as well just to haze new members?" I think you all know which one I would choose. And that is a purely selfish point of view, not taking into consideration the fact that I believe hazing is wrong, no matter how you look at it. Just my $0.02.

I think something that most of you people don’t understand what hazing is all about. At my college every fraternity and sorority hazes. One reason they do it is because it is tradition and everyone else had to do it so why shouldn’t the pledges. My fraternity is probably the worst on hazing at my school. I pledged for 6 weeks and it was the hardest 6 weeks of my life. I could give you some horror stories about what i went through but i don’t think that most of you are ready for it. The reason we haze is because it builds a bond between the pledge brothers. Now that I am a brother I couldn’t have better friends than the guys I went through hell with. If you don’t want to be hazed then don’t join an organization that hazes it is that simple. I don’t see why some people start to pledge get hazed then file a lawsuit that’s just dumb. If you don’t want to do it then quit don’t be an a**hole and screw it up for all the people who were willing to put in the effort. Guys hazing can be really bad but for the people who want to join an organization with a very strong brotherhood hazing will bring you closer than anything. We do not participate in any form of public humiliation and we do not hit the pledges what happens in the house stays in the house i think that is the way it should be, and hitting a pledge is just dumb i can see why some people do it though because of tradition and that should be strong too but why would you hit someone that is going to be your brother? And to the people who say they wouldn’t risk losing their financial aid over hazing obviously haven’t been hazed because I know that anyone in my fraternity would risk whatever it took to save our fraternity that’s an example of how hazing makes you more dedicated to your organization.

Paging Deltalum, Paging Deltalum

Yawn
 

That's a pretty sorry argument

* Hazing is illegal. Almost every state has a law against hazing
* Every national organization has a policy against hazing
Between these two things, obviously more than just a couple people think it's wrong.

* Why the f%#@ would you want to be friends with someone who put you through hell? Is this a new phenomenon? Be friends with the people who treat you worst in life.

* Last time I checked, a fraternity or sorority was bigger than just a new member class. Being friends with just your pledge class means nada. Pretty crappy brotherhood then if you're only friends with people you pledged with. Oh wait, maybe you'd be friends with the people who did these countless horror stories to you.

* People only sue when they get hurt. In fact, you have to suffer some sort of injury to even bring suit in an American court. People don't just start getting hazed and drop out and bring a law suit. They sue b/c they were injured or died because of the hazing. You don't have to hit someone to hurt them, there are a lot of other ways.

* So people are willing to risk their entire education for your brotherhood? That doesn't speak very highly to the purposes and aims of your brotherhood, whatever it is. Education is the reason that all of us were in college. Any fraternity that would even ALLOW you to risk your financial aid for it isn't much of a fraternity.
* Anyone else not surprised this is the person's first post?

* And finallly, it takes a REAL man to stand up for what they know is right. It takes a weak follower to be hazed.

Now, kddani, I know sometimes I don't agree with everything you say but this time I'm totally with you. I don't see the point of hazing. (When I say "hazing," I'm talking about hazing and not scavenger hunts and stuff.) My stepdad's fraternity hazed a lot, but he stood up to the actives and guess what? They initiated him anyway. I think they liked him the more for it. I could tell you some more of his stories besides the ones I've mentioned before in various other threads, but I just don't think certain people who come on here extolling the virtues of hazing could handle it. :p

Yea, I was actually surprised by kddani's post.

I'm sorry, since when have I ever been in support of hazing in any way, shape, or form that my post would suprise anyone?

ETA: I'm not trying to be snippy :) i'm genuinely curious as to when I ever supported hazing.

It's all fun and games until someone gets hurt.

These fraternities and sororities that still haze have been lucky. They've been lucky that none of their new members have been hurt while being hazed. One day, their luck is going to run out and they're going to have some BIG problems. Not only will the hazing be put to an end but so will the fraternity/sorority and all the members' stay at that university as well. There is also the possibility of jail time. If you accidently hurt or kill a new member while hazing them, you can be thrown in jail. From what I've heard, jail is not a fun place to be.

Gart, you must have been hit on the head during your "wonderful" hazing experience. So we'll show some grace and chalk it up as temporary insanity.

For the record, my pledge class had and still do have, a very close relationship. And we weren't hazed so your arguments carry no currency here.

In civilized worlds, we demonstrate our commitment to people and organizations by giving freely of our time, talent and treasure. We're there to celebrate good times and to comfort in bad times.

I don't buy for one second that hazing is needed to create a lasting bond of friendship.

Very well said, Girlene :)

Well said Girlene. However, you'd think it'd be different joing a fraternity rather than joing a sorority. It's just a feeling I have that sororities would be less likely to haze than fraternities.

If this message was in reference to my comment, I never implied that you supported hazing. I was just surprised to see you say something that most people would agree with. I, like achtungbaby80, sometimes don't agree with most of the stuff you say.;) I didn't mean for it to sound like you supported hazing. I'm sorry.:cool:

I think that building bonds that last require a level of intimacy that women are more comfortable and in general, are better at doing. So maybe fraternities feel the need to haze because the men don't know what else to do, but they need to get over it and learn.

I don't see how hazing is any different from domestic or child abuse(physical, mental, emothional) .

It's a horrible misuse of authority and of power over another individual. And too often the line is crossed from "fun stuff" to "abuse" because people get an adrenalyn rush or high off of their power trip and it feels good-unfortunately at another person's expense.

Nahhhh, it's just the brothers are drunk. You gotta be a pretty sick individual to get an adrenalyn rush or a high off of a power trip at the expense of another person's misfortune. Everyone does stupid stuff when they're drunk, thats why they get drunk before they haze you.

Has anyone in here actually been hazed? I understand that its hard to imagine why anyone would think there is a benifit to being hazed if they havent gone through it.

Yes but not in my GLO. There was not a benifit or a benefit to it. And Gart, since you are so proud that you were hazed, what chapter of what fraternity are you in? You shouldn't be ashamed to admit it...

Sorry i cant tell you what fraturnity im in that would be a stupid move since everyone is against hazing but i can tell you we are a local fraturnity with no national afiliations.

Isn't that like saying a man who beats his wife only when he's drunk is not a wife-beater when he is sober? Alcohol only magnifies what's already in you.

I think anyone who wants to haze or be hazed should do some soul searching...

Those who have been hazed and are proud of it need some serious soul searching and a therapist can help you with that. Just because someone is drunk isn't an excuse for their actions. Most individuals know how they act while they are drunk because someone has told them. I don't buy the whole drunk excuse. That's a bunch of crap. A spouse and child abuser is always an abuser drunk or sober. I know from experience! :(

Hmm...I know some guys in local fraternities with no national affiliations, is that anything like yours?

How bout fessing up where you go to school, champ? If you're so proud of your "fraturnity" you should want to share that with others.

Im just curious to why you would want to know so bad? Ill tell you that we are in PA.

Because anyone who is so proud of their chapter hazing should have enough balls to admit who they are. There are other people on here who will tell you their fraternity hazes, but they'll admit who they are, which makes them much more credible. For all we know, you're an independent just trying to stir up trouble by getting us all worked up.

We can certainly respect tradition. However, don't expect any of us to respect your fraternity hazing.

Hazing = severe lack of respect

ditto-well said!