Yet another article about Greek life
 

I just thought some of you might want to read this.


http://navisite.collegeclub.com/serv...articleid=4418

Interesting article.
Although, it had me a little
confused. Just when I thought
I knew what it was about, it
changed. At first it seems as
though they are bashing U of A's
Greek system. However, the article
ends with a notion that the system
should be left alone. Apparently the
school's administration has too tight
of a hold on the Greek system, and
to some, it isn't right and doesn't
make sense.

I could be wrong.

As an alum of U of A and a member
of a U of A sorority, I agree with some
of the stereotypes mentioned in the article.
Some of the things they mentioned were
things I noticed as soon as I arrived on
campus. Wealthy, beautiful people everywhere.
It was interesting to say the least, but that's
not all there is to the U of A or the Greek system.

You Misunderstand
 

It is a virulently anti-Greek article start to finish. It's very classist, very typical of the stereotype left-agenda-driven student journalist.
Just as we all talk to each other in this forum and through various Greek gatherings to disucss current issues, so do they. I recognize the theme this writer promotes, and it is one that is echoed acorss the country by similar activists.
When they (student editorial board) say the University should "loosen their ties and make Greek life independent" what they mean is that the UA should withdraw official rcognition from fraternities & sororities, dissolve any Greek Life staff that exists, and drive them off University land. That is exactly what they mean and that is what they mean on other campusses where that same attitude and agenda exists.
The irony is that at some schools the greeks might actually be better off if that were the case. Too often these days the University's rules and regulations of greek-letter groups is so restrictive and Draconian as to be punitive. Fortunately, for those fraternities and sororities who understand the truth about their status at public institutions, most of this intrusive administrative meddling is illegal, and can be dealt with effectively by organized alumni.
I read a Greek Life website just last night and the official "agreement between" the Greeks and the school stated that each chapter was responsible for the behavior of the individual members. What nonsense! What other group or entity on campus would put up with such outrageous requirements? What other group or entity would even be asked to consider it?

I agree with Firehouse. The article was pretty ignorant. I would wager "make them independent" means kick them out of their houses on campus and use the space for something else more PC. Things like this make me damned glad that my alma mater doesn't have houses on campus...

I agree with the first part of what firehouse says. But, the at last part I don't, I agree that the chapter shouldn't be held accountable to the school for each individual members actions, yet, aren't you supposed to be brothers and sisters? Hold you're brothers and sisters accountable to you and to themselves. Don't be your Brothers'/Sisters' keeper be your Brothers'/Sisters' Brother/Sister.

33Girl: None of the houses are on campus but PSS, ZTA, SSS, DZ, and former ASA/PMA all have university owned houses. Which, according to one of the 5-year plans are going to be vacated and torn down to build a new dorm or on campus apartments and the foundation will give the land back to the university and it will become part of campus.

Re: You Misunderstand
 

None and none but short of hiring a lawyer what are the organizations supposed to do?

I asked someone at the alum office about this...apparently this idea is NOT going over well because if they do tear them down and annex it to campus, it comes off the tax rolls. Right now I think there is a difference btwn the foundation owning it and the college proper owning it that keeps it on. The townspeople are irritated enough at the university sucking up so much land. I got the impression from the alum office that since they were building that Magnolia Estate thing that this was off the drawing board...plus I could see ZTA dragging their national in to fight it...I can't imagine them not having that house.

To madmax
 

You asked: "short of hiring a lawyer, what are organizations supposed to do?". Let me offer the answer, but first let me say that there are not many bad actors on the scene, only a few. Most college administrators are good and decent people who are just trying to balance the concerns of any administration against the natural craziness of young people. Unfortunately, just as one fraternity's bad behavior can cause a lot of trouble for all Greeks, one weak or hateful or egotistical or agenda-driven administrator can create a deep reserve of animosity among the Greeks and their alumni.
The story I'm going to tell you doesn't have any of those bad people in it, and that is an important point.
There is a major university with an outstanding fraternity/sorority system where one lower level Greek administrator who is no longer there decided she was going to impose a version of something called the 'Delaware Five Star program' on the fraternities. Each fraternity president was called in separately and individually, seated at a table across from some administrators, and told that if he had any objections to this program he needed to voice them now. From now on, they were told, each fraternity would have to be 'accredited' or somesuch term, and would have to perform up to cetain standards the university set in areas the University chose. And if these standards were not met, the offending fraternity would have its recognition withdrawn. In addition, it was implied that the university was considering 'deferred rush' with the veiled suggestion that if there was any opposition to the Five Star Program, deferred rush was still on the table.
Most of the chapter presidents were intimidated. They didn't like this program at all but didn't see anything they could do about it. Administrators generally want to deal directly with the chapters and not at all with the alumni, for obvious reasons. The chapter presidents met privately, sent a letter to the University asking for relief from this imposed system, and enlisted the help of alumni.

There was a meeting over dinner. It was very amiable, no harsh words exchanged. No threats, no animosity. On one side was the then-Vice President for Student Affairs and one or two Greek Life staff, and on the other side were alumni from six different fraternities. All were lawyers and one was a judge. The lawyers very calmly explained the law, and suggested that the University had overstepped it's bounds. It was agreed, said the alumni, that the boys needed to make better grades and need to behave and that the alumni would help set up programs to promote those virtues. It was also noted by the alumni that the fraternities belong not to the University, but to the fraternities themselves, and that recognition is not an arbitrary matter but a matter of established law.
The lawyers made it clear that any forced imposition of a so-called 'Five Star program" and/or any sort of deferred rush would be challenged. The judge ended the discussion by saying, "I must tell you, sir, that if this case came into my court, I would consider it a Civil Rights issue."
The meeting ended, and so abruptly did any attempt to impose the 5-Star System or deferred rush. There were no hard feelings because no one was considered to be bad or anti-Greek, and the lawyers were not arrogant or confrontational.
The morale of the story is this: Fraternities and sororities all have responsibilities that we must acknowledge. But we also have rights. The administration knows what our rights are, and too often they count on the undergraduates not knowing. Alumni guardians providing oversight is the answer.

Re: To madmax
 

That doesn't really answer my question. When an organization thinks they are being wronged what are they supposed to do short of hiring a lawyer? These Greeks didn't have a lawyer, they had 5 lawyers and a judge. I understand your point about alumni but if these 6 alumni were salesman I doubt if the school would have caved so easily.

Let's say the groups in your example did not have 5 lawyers and a judge and they didn't meet all the criteria of the Delaware 5 Star System. The school then revokes recognition. This is a public school where the chapter houses are privately owned so the organizations continue to operate within the law and recruit new members. The school then makes a new policy that says it is violation for students to join unrecognized organizations. Then what do you do?

firehouse is this not so true on many Campi?:(

Most of the Greek Advisors are placed into this position? Even some as im my school said, I am a Greek and have studied to do this! It is BS! She beleived in the same dogma that was put forward and they, the position, is at the schools personia! :(

This is a relative New Position that many do not know how to deal with so??????

I could not agree more, that a few, of the members can screw up a totally great Chapter! Is It Right? NO! But, All Pay for it Because of the Chapters Name! Si!

Sad as it might be, it does happen! We all know it!:(

WE as Greeks Have to be better! Hell We are, BUT, We have to Prove it dailey!:eek:

To madmax
 

madmax: I am not making myself clear. The University has no legal grounds to withdraw recognition, 5-Star program or no, and the University absolutely doesn't have the legal right to forbid any student from joining 'unrecognized groups'. If they were to do so, then the student could sue the University and individual administrators for civil rights violations, and ask for punitive damages. Student organizations do have responsibilities, and we should take them seriously, but at a public University, they are not even allowed to keep a new fraternity or sorority from coming onto the campus. Any group that challenges such a restriction, from IFC or any other, will win.
I have no animosity toward my university or any other, but let me tell you this truth: the power of any administrator is magnified by the ingorance of the students and the laxness of alumni. They actually have relatively little power. Their strength is that they know you don't know that. There doesn't have to be a war between students and administrations, but the answer to bullying and little 'tin-God' mid-level administrators is to simply say 'No". You'd be amazed.

Madmax: the short answer
 

OK. Here's the short answer to your question. Simply refuse. Say No. An administrator may then overreact in some dreadful, Draconian manner. When that happens, you won't have to engage a lawyer. They'll be parachuting onto the roof of your house.

I really felt I should respond because I was intiated at U of A, that is where I joined my sorority during spring rush. Now I left the university in 1998, but these are things I remember my then president telling our chapter and things I have heard via friends since then.

One thing, if this rule still applys, if a sorority doesn't have a house, you are not recognized on campus.

Okay next, this was when I was there, so rules might have changed, but sororities couldn't have parties in their house. I know we had a rule men were really only allowed downstairs. If we had a party (like a frat party so to speak) we could and would get in trouble not only by our advisors but by the school also.

After I left the school, U of A prohibited frat parties on campus. Unfortunately the biggest party house (when I was there) was Kappa Sigma and our house just happened to be right next door.

From what sisters told me the reason U of A prohibited this was because they had rules about advertising a frat party. The guys could do it as word of mouth, but they weren't supposed print flyers and hand them out. It was really suppposed to be almost like an exclusive get together because the frats usually invited the sorority girls. I guess Kagga Sigma (or one of the other frats) advertised, ergo, end parties on campus. Plus I guess the parties would last all hours into the night and break the noise code, cops would be called and that's just bad publicity to the campus in the first place.

The article was completely biased against the greek system. Now I don't know how many men go through rush, but I believe sorority rush is still pretty big. I don't know any actives at U of A anymore, but before 500-600 girls would usually go through rush, if not more.

Hope some of what I said helps

Brianna
Alpha Delta Pi

do you mean not recognized as in the school doesn't consider you an official organization, or not recognized as the campus populace in general doesn't know who you are?

The school wouldn't recognize you as an official organization. Sorry, it's early not making myself to clear.

See it became an issue with my house when I was there. A lot of girls really didn't want to live in the house because it was expensive and we were sat down and told by our president that if the house wasn't full and the rent wasn't paid that we would lose it and we would lose our charter. (is that the right word for not being active on campus). Plus I think at the time U of A was giving Greeks a little bit of money. They probably don't do it now, but that was also an issue. Lose the house, lose the charter, lose the little funds.

Again, it's been awhile since I've been there, so I'm sure things have changed. All this is based off what I was told in 1998 and what I remember being told.

Brianna
Alpha Delta Pi

No, ordinarily that would make perfect sense - it's just such a bizarre concept I couldn't quite believe that was what you meant. I know NPC says that if one sorority has a house on campus, they all should, but I have NEVER heard of a school making such a rule. IMO that is outright discrimination against the smaller national groups that maybe couldn't afford a house. :mad: I sincerely hope this is one of the rules that was changed.

Re: To madmax
 

Firehouse...


I think that is easier said than done. When chapters say no and continue to legally operate off campus some universities simply pass rules that prohibit students from joining unrecognized organizations. The University of Delaware even sends out letters to incoming freshman and their parents informing them that it is "illegal" to pledge unrecongized organizations. http://www.udel.edu/student-centers/...s/recruit.html

Here is a quote from another public university student handbook, "According to the regulations for pledging in a social Greek organization, only recognized fraternities and sororities may pledge students that have met the schools requirements. Executive board officers of Greek organizations that fail to adhere to this requirement will face a campus judicial hearing and be subject to possible probation, suspension or expulsion.

There are many schools that have similar policies. Do you know of any chapters that have sued and actually won punitive damages? I don't.

When the GLO is in the right, they are still screwed because nobody wants to hire a lawyer and pay legal bills when they are probably going to graduate in a year or two.

My take...
 

As an alumni member of a GLO that is allowed to maintain activity, I see the "traditional" Fraternities and Sororities being given the run around by numerous administrations nation wide.

At my former University, all the greeks were being actively alienated from the student union process. It was blatantly so. All other on-campus organizations had "seats" on the student union, but there were no such seats available to IFC, NPC governed student organizations... That was unfair!!!

I was at a student union executive board meeting listening to the horrid anti-greek sentiment, when one IFC fraternity member came upto me after the meeting and told how hard it was for all the greeks on my campus...

Well, next civil event I attended, I happened to meet a Mayoral candidate that was an alumni of my university. Furthermore he was an IFC fraternity member. And I told him what both IFC and NPC organizations were facing on the campus. Needless to say, he was shocked. He stated that when he attended school, the IFC and NPC ran the school.

Next thing I knew, the IFC and NPC had a "seat" on the student government--just like all other student organizations...

So sometimes, relying on the "powerhouses" of your alumni is not all that bad... There are many a time that the alums can pull many more strings that young folks can. Sometimes there is back fire, other times, hell--you can't hep it you are sooooo blessed...

So respect your heritage!!! That's what your organization should be about!!!

To Madmax again
 

You brought up two issues: first, the example you cited about the University of Delaware issuing warnings to parents about "illegal" organizations, and second, you asked if I knew of any chapters who sued the university and won.
Answer to the second question: Sure, lots of them. The best course is to get along and do almost anything you can to avoid having to "lawyer up" against the university, but when it's necessary in order to survive, then the Greeks almost always win. There was a case in California maybe ten years ago (cited in an issue of Fraternal Law) where a Phi Kappa Tau chapter was hammered by their school for some politically incorrect party t-shirts. Instead of merely chastising the boys and lecturing them on the incivility of their shirts and having them do some community service, the mid-level self-important administrators puffed themselves up and booted Phi Tau off campus. Phi Tau sued. Not only were they reinstated, but they were entertained by the delicious sight of the Dean Of Students attending court-mandated classes on the First Amendment.
Last year at Auburn, we all followed the saga of the Delta Sigma Phis and Beta Theta Pis. Party pix of both fraternities went out on the web showing partygoers in a variety of racist, hurtful and inappropriate costumes at Halloween parties. As could be expected, instead of using this embarrasing event as an instrument to teach tolerance and shame the participants into better behavior, the school administration flew into paryoxisms of self-righteousness and grandstanding, and ordered both fraternities expelled.
The national offices fled as they will do, but the the local alumni brought in lawyers who explained in detail to the university just how many millions in personal and punitive damages they would pay out to those memebrs they had slandered and damaged. While the behavior was in fact vile, it was also in fact protected. Almost immediately the Betas and the Delta Phis were back in good standing. Oh, they had to do a few public mea culpas, but no harm done. My guess is also that they will never repeat the same behavior again.
Several years ago at Georgia, we're all familiar with the story of the sorority accused of racism concerning the selection or rejection of a rushee. Again, the school over-reacted, began to grandstand and tried to pillory the sorority. The alumni brought in one lawyer - one - who spoke very softly to the administration and asked only one question: do you or do you not maintain a separate classification of Historially Black sororities within your Greek Life heirarchy, and is it not true that with your blessing they conduct a separate rush? Blink your eyes, no more threat. Again, going to court IS THE LAST RESORT! But you asked for examples. Only the Phi Taus actually went to trial.
Your first point had to do with the University of Delaware sending letters to parents about unrecognized ("illegal") clubs. The issue here is the word "illegal". There are no "illegal" clubs; the University of Delaware has no authority to determine their legality. The University does have every right to make parents aware of any rogue organizations which might attempt to pass themsleves off as being officially affiliated with the University. We have that at my school right now. The Dean of Students put up posters during rush warning students against joining any of the three unrecognized/suspended fraternities. We have a rogue chapter of SAE here called The Lion's Club. My opinion is that it's an uncalled-for meanness on the school's part, but there may be legal reasons; they may feel they have to protect the university's name and trademarks. I don't know. They have the right to make anyone aware that those organizations were closed for cause and are not afiliated with my school.
What the school DOES NOT have the right to do is to punish any student for joining one of those clubs or for being a member. A lot of people worked very ahrd for a long time to get the Freedom of Association Act passed through congress in 1996. Remember: the school attorneys know what your rights are. Unfortunately, a few administrators may count on the fact that you don't know.