quick question for AOIIs!
 

I was browsing around on your national website, and under the description of the badge, it says that if it is worn with another pin, it is to be worn above and to the right of the other pin.

Well...

In SAI, OUR badge policy is that it is NEVER to be worn above or beneath another badge, and that if another fraternity/sorority pin is worn, it must be worn beside it.

So...what would happen if an AOII became an SAI, or vise-versa?

Just curious!

Zeta Tau Alpha has the same policy that no pin is to be worn above ours. When I was an undergrad, several of my sisters were Zetas and SAI's. They usually resolved that issue by wearing only their ZTA badge for ZTA functions and their SAI badge for SAI funtions.

~Allison

I have no clue? Dare I say whichever one you joined first you follow that rule? Nah j/k. Ummmmm personally I just wouldn't wear the two together so as to not offend either organization

I agree with alsparky.

Re: quick question for AOIIs!
 

That's a good question, and a hard one because I'm from the school of thought where nothing takes precedence over our AOII badge, regardless of the organization or length of membership. We don't even allow guards or dangles on our AOII badges, we wear our badge, period. (Works for me, but I wasn't a member of any other group that required their pin or badge to be worn above any other organization's jewelry.)

I think Allison gave the best answer--wear the SAI badge to SAI functions without the AOII (or ZTA!) badge. That way you can show the proper respect to each badge when you wear it, and follow each group's badge guidelines. A definite win-win!

I know we have other jewelry we can wear to indicate our AOII membership (not limited to lavaliers!) so a sister with dual AOII-SAI membership could always wear her SAI badge to her SAI events with a piece of AOII jewelry to show her loyalty to AOII as well. Check out the AOII Emporium (www.aoiiemporium.com) and check out all the stuff we can spend our hard earned dollars upon :D

Christin

I don't know about AOII's but I've seen many women & men wear their fraternity/sorority pin and their Delta Sigma Pi pin at the same height. :)

Well, that's what I was asking. SAI does not ask you to put the SAI badge ABOVE another; in fact we very strictly say it must be worn BESIDE the other badge, on the same level. But my question was, because AOII has a rule saying it must be ABOVE the other...would it be wrong to wear it *beside* the SAI badge?

I'm not an AOII by the way...I was just curious. :)

I have to agree with others just not to wear them at the same time. I know that adpi also has it that no other pin should be above your adpi pin...None of my other organizations have a problem with that so my others all sit bellow my adpi pin...

Yes. Wearing another badge next to our AOII badge is giving it the same importance so to speak.

But in doing so, this would say that SAI is not as important as AOII. And I'm sorry, but that's not right.

I would never expect an SAI to put her badge above that of another GLO. We have had many members in 2 GLOs and we respect that, as long as they give each GLO equal time and value each just as much.

Saying that SAI isn't as important as AOII is disrespectful, in my opinion. It's saying, "put AOII above SAI; it's more important. You should always put SAI below AOII because they're not as important". That's not fair...many girls in two GLOs value both sororities exactly the same. We have a member who is a DZ, and she loves SAI just as much as DZ.

Sorry if I come off as rude, but I find it rude to not be able to wear another GLO badge beside the AOII one.

I'd wear them them one at a time.

In response to your question about would it be wrong to wear the AOII badge beside the SAI badge, yes I would agree that that would be wrong inasmuch as our international policy states the following: “If it is worn with another pin, it is to be placed above it and to the right. No other pin, badge, insignia, such as a fraternity pin, Greek letter indicating the name of a chapter or a symbol denoting an office, may be attached to the badge in any way, whether by a chain or by hanging it on the fastener.”

I will try to put this in a way as not to cause controversy, which does not seem likely, but I will try, so here goes...To say that you find it rude/disrespectful that AOII is asking its members to wear their badge above others is in my opinion disrespectful of the organization as a whole and me as a member for you to be criticizing the guidelines of AOII for its members.

I don’t believe that AOII and my pledge to be a member of said organization is to be taken with a grain of salt, nor should a pledge to be in any organization. I am not saying that AOII is more or less important than another organization, just that much like all orgs, AOII has expectations as to how you wear your badge. It is a choice to wear a badge in the first place, and a choice that should not be entered into lightly for anyone. Nowhere on our website does it state that AOII is more important than any other organization, and nowhere does it state that your loyalties must lie only with AOII. Knowing Alpha Omicron Pi international’s guidelines for wearing our badge, I would be inclined to respect the wishes of my organization.

However...this does not negate being in another organization, but Christin (AOIIalum) had the best suggestion of all. Considering the conflicting ways to wear a badge between the two orgs, I would say to do it the way she suggested for SAI functions as then you would be respecting both. As for AOII functions, respect the wishes of AOII, and perhaps just wear a recognition pin for SAI. Not wearing the badge, but wearing the recognition pin still means that you are a member, and a good one that is respecting the guidelines of both of the orgs as a whole. Regardless of how one chooses to wear a badge, in situations like rituals, I would be inclined only to wear the one of the org that was having the ritual out of respect for the ritual, members and org.

Hopefully this is clear, and not too confusing as that was not my intent.

**edited because I found a typo**

In my oversimplification, my point was missed and I apologize. It is not an issue of who is better then who. When our founders developed our badge and its meanings (the importance to us), it was decided that no other badge was to be placed above it or attached to it. That is why AOII does not utilize chapter guards. Someone further explained it to me from our Ritual, Traditions and Jewels Committee that no other badge should be on the same level, i.e. right next to it. If any organization has rules that are different, that’s fine. An AOII will just have to choose which badge is most appropriate for the occasion.

ETA - Great post AOII_LB93!

Believe me, I understand how important each GLO's badge policy is. But you stated, as did others, that another one can't be ATTACHED to it. And I know that since I am not an AOII my opinion doesn't really count for much, and maybe I don't even have the right to make suggestions, I don't know. But if I were in 2 GLOs, I would always want to wear both pins when dressed up. Now, for rituals, it would be appropriate to only wear the pin for that group. But what about other times you are dressed up? Like, non-sorority related times? THEN how do you choose which pin to wear?

Like I said, I KNOW my opinion doesn't count for much. But...I think AOII nationals should really think about this kind of situation. For cases where the member's other GLO badge policy conflicts with AOIIs, it would be a good idea to come up with a compromise...like wearing the pins side by side. I simply don't understand why this would be disrespectful, or wrong. I know this is the sorority's policy and tradition...But I believe there should be some exceptions.

I know I have offended you, and I am sorry. However, do you see how I am a little offended that a fellow Greek organization thinks that their badge should be worn above another that a member is just as devoted to?

Any other opinions?

Note: In reverence and respect to my Canadian sisters, Alpha Omicron Pi is an international organization. Not being picky, just don't want my sisters up north to feel slighted.

First of all, I never said your opinion didn't count for much, but as someone else stated earlier in this post, I think it was alsparky that mentioned that ZTA has the same policy, so why the apparent hostility towards AOII?
I'm sure that many GLOs would prefer that their members hold them in the highest of importance and thus want to wear the badge above others. I’m not saying that there isn’t something wrong with compromise or your idea, but truly this is a question for people on the Alpha Omicron Pi Ritual, Traditions, and Jewelry committee.

Well answered again, AOII_LB!

I'm a bit confused as well about why this seems to be such an issue now? I know that SAI is a fellow greek organization, but (and I may offend every SAI, Sinfonian, DO, and so forth members) there is a difference between historically social NPC GLO membership and your organizations. I am NOT saying one is better or worse than the other, not at all. But, these GLOs are different. I'm guessing that when the music-centric GLOs were founded, dual-membership in an NPC or NIC group was not a normal occurrence, and therefore each group's badge requirements weren't a problem. Luckily, in 2003 things are different. It's not as unique of a situation to see NPC members in the music sororities, so I guess this issue would come up from time to time. As members of AOII we are allowed to pursue membership in various service and departmental greek letter organizations, so theoretically this could be an issue for a member.

I think the greater question here isn't why AOII (or ZTA) or SAI do what they do, but how members of each group handle compliance with each organization's badge expectations? Say Annie Active is a member of AOII and a music student. She is invited to join her school's chapter of SAI, and accepts. One day she's getting all dressed up to go to some non-AOII and non-SAI function, so which badge does she choose to wear? That's Annie Active's decision, and it's not our place to tell her which badge to wear or which one is more important (other than ensuring that as a member of each organization, Annie Active knows the proper way to wear her badges!) Both AOII (and ZTA!) and SAI think HER badge is most important. You know something, that's okay. Really, it is.

I guess my question for sairose is: Are you considering dual NPC membership at some point? If so, was learning that other NPC groups require their badge to be worn in the same manner as your SAI badge upsetting to you? I can understand that. I have no doubt that SAI means just as much to you as AOII means to me. You wouldn't want to put SAI 'second' to a NPC sorority, just as I wouldn't put my boyfriend's badge/pin, little sister pin (remember, I'm a 'back in the day' girl!) or other honorary pin equal or above my AOII badge.

sairose, if you aren't pursuing dual membership, may I ask why it seems to be so important to you that AOII changes her long-held policy on how her members wear their badges? If it's none of my business just tell me, I won't be offended at all. I really want to understand the real reason behind this. Right now, I just feel like you're attacking AOII for some reason, and I hope I've just misunderstood that along the way.

Fraternally,
Christin

(Edited because I can't spell 'theoretically' before the 1st glass of Diet Coke!)

I don't believe that anyone's intention has been to say that one organization is better than or more important than another, but are acknowleging the difference in the organizations. I have to say that the women that I knew who were members of both ZTA and SAI loved both of their organizations, while realizing that they were very different organizations.

I think that the women I knew found the easiest way to distinguish which badge to wear was to decide for which organization they were getting dressed up. That's to say that on Tuesdays, ZTAs wore badge attire in recognition of Tuesdays being our chapter meeting day. So on Tuesdays they wore the ZTA badge. If they were going to a recital or music reception or SAI meeitng, they wore their SAI badge. And to be honest, the women I went to school with didn't dress up unless they had to, so what to wear on another day wasn't an issue.

I think the best way to look at it is this: Think of SAI and another organization that a woman is a member of as a parent who loves their children.

My parents love my brother and I equally, though we are quite different. They don't love either more or less than the other, though our relationships with our parents are very different.

~Allison

>>>would it be wrong to wear it *beside* the SAI badge?<<<


Yes, it would be wrong as far as AOII is concerned, and from the thread, probably as far as ZTA is concerned as well. While I don't really see the problem in this (and I don't agree that AOII needs to "rethink" it's policy) if you are considering dual membership at some point and it is a problem for you, then you may want to investigate the rules of the various GLO's at your campus before you make a decision to join.

In my continuing research on this topic, I just thought I would let you all know that Sigma Kappa has the same policy posted on their website as well. I have been checking most of the NPC websites, and SK was the only one so far that I have found that has the same policy, but I haven't gotten to the large majority of the websites yet, and will be doing so today. :)

**edited to add: In my cursory perusal of every NPC orgs website I only found 3 that actually put it on the page where I was quickly able to find it and they are: AOII(obviously), Theta Phi Alpha, and Sigma Kappa. If anyone in any other org can find it on your respective website I apologize, I was doing this before I ran off to my class today.**

Alpha Gamma Delta also has the same rule: all honor, professional, or men's badges must be pinned lower and to the left of the Badge. I'm going to hazard the guess that almost all NPCs have the same tradition.

That's just the way its always been. I know that isn't particularly comforting to you, sairose, but I don't think any of the NPCs will be changing this policy anytime soon.

Tri Sigma has the same rule as above regarding other badges worn with our badge.

I'm not offended, AOIIalum. We are somewhat different, which has its pluses and its minuses.

However, I will repeat what I have put on these boards before. (Those folks, and there are probably lots of them ;), who are sick of hearing this from me are welcome to skip to the next post.)

Phi Mu Alpha Sinfonia, both in terms of history and the present-day, is a social fraternity. We were founded as a social fraternity. It was not until the mid-20th century that we began to move in the direction of being a professional fraternity, finally "finishing" that move in the late 60s and early 70s. In the mid-1980s, we made a firm decision to reject professional status and reaffirm our identity as a social fraternity. Much of the Fraternity's work over the last two decades has been to move us back to our roots.

Yes, we're different from other social fraternities. Due to the way our history progressed, our chapters often have little direct contact with other Greeks on campus (or at least non-music Greeks), whether through IFC or otherwise. This seems to be changing, though, as more chapters are joining their campus IFCs. Our focus on music certainly makes us different, although we certainly think it is a very good difference. But we are a social fraternity.

Now back to our regularly-scheduled thread. I'll try to refrain from singing this song again for a while.

I'm sorry to all those who I have offended. I didn't actually mean to start a flame war, and I am sorry.

And I didn't mean to direct all my opinions toward AOII, but to all sororities who have this policy.

I understand why a men's badge or honorary badge would be pinned below a NPC sorority pin. But NOT a professional such as SAI, because we ARE Greek, very much so. Yes, our focus is somewhat different...but we have Rush, rituals, big and little sisters, philanthropies, conventions, etc etc. Our fraternity is near and dear to us, and if I were to join another sorority I would be crushed if I could not wear my SAI badge next to the other.

And maybe the groups won't change this anytime soon. Or ever. But...really listen to my concerns about this. Yes, each group has traditions, but sometimes those traditions change. For instance I'm willing to say almost all GLOs rituals have changed somewhat over the years before finally becoming what it is today...ours did. So why would it be such a bad thing to change a badge policy? Do you see what I am saying? Especially when the other GLOs badge policy conflicts.

The reason this whole topic came up is not because I was going to pledge AOII or another sorority, but because a friend of mine wants to pledge AOII in the fall and then hopefully SAI in the spring, so I just wanted to find out what she could do with her badges if she joins both GLOs.

I am truly sorry I came off the way I did. SOmetimes online, it is hard to portray what you are really meaning to say. :) I didn't mean to attack AOII in any way. I do NOT agree with their badge policy, but it is important to know that if SAI was to have that policy I would object to that as well. I believe if a woman joins 2 sororities, she should be able to display BOTH badges, side by side, at all times, instead of having to wear one above the other or to have to choose which one to wear. However, I didn't mean that to come off as an attack.

Besides, how could I attack a sorority with the same lovely symbol(red rose) and colors as my own? :D

But on that note - men's groups are also Greek. If I ever get pinned I would like to "twin" my badge with the sweetheart badge but I'm not sure if that's permissible, so until I found out from our International Ritual officer, I would just wear it lower and left.

Also, I went through our Bylaws and Rules and couldn't find anything about other badges being worn at that level or twinned. I don't know if any other Gamma Phis on here know about that or not.

Oops--sorry--forgot to finish my thought. :) I meant that I would understand a sweetheart badge not being worn to the same level since you don't belong to that org, and an honorary one I understand because you don't have the ritual, etc etc. But GLOs like SAI, TBS, DO, and others are different because you actually BELONG to that org. Sorry for the confusion. :)

OK I get it now! Thanks for clarifying for me. At my campus, SAI members kind of isolated themselves from the social GLOs so there weren't any double members.

(slight hijack - sorry)

I don't have my Constitution or Standing Rules with me... but can any Kappas confirm/deny that we don't have many rules concerning that wearing of the badge (minus that only initiated members can wear it)? I don't seem to remember any and I thought I read the Constitution over carefully.

If you could PM me, we can make sure this hijack doesn't disrupt this thread too much.

(sorry!)

(end hijack)

No, I don't get tired of reading it. I like learning about your fraternity through your posts, MysticCat.

In my experiences, Sinfonia and Delta Omicron was quite exclusive to the schools of music on the campuses (campi?) I had knowledge of. There were plenty of NPC women in Delta Omicron at my alma mater. It was normal, it was accepted, but I can't think of a time when it caused a conflict for those members with dual memberships. The commitment a member had to their NPC seemed to take precedence, but I do not know if that was a choice each member made of themselves, the 'norm' for my campus, or just what I noticed myself.

Mystic Cat--does Phi Mu Alpha Sinfonia allow dual membership in Sinfonia and and any other social fraternal group? I admit, my knowledge is limited and perhaps it would be best for me to check your (inter)national website?

sairose, I'm sure you never intended to start a flame war and asked your question in a sincere quest for knowledge. Entitling the thread as you did, and some of your comments throughout, led me to believe you had some kind of personal issue with AOII. I do not know if you can take any comfort in this, but this ongoing thread has caused me to do a little research about your sisterhood. I like what I found, and congratulate your founders for realizing that there was a need for an organized social outlet celebrating and promoting what they loved, their common bonds in music. I've learned that membership in SAI is restricted, to those with some kind of connection to music and possibly the arts (unsure on that so far) and membership in a social sorority is allowed.

I respectfully disagree on both counts.

Not all GLOs rituals have changed through the years, because not all GLOs have had to change. Some of the sororities and fraternities were blessed with forward-thinking founders who somehow had the knowledge and insight to create rituals that would stand the test of time through the decades.

It would be a bad thing to change an existing badge policy when it has worked and continues to work for its' members. If the general membership has reason to request a change, each GLO has a procedure in place to mandate the change. If the general membership does not have a reason to do so, why should we change it? I love what AOII stands for, and part of that is held within my badge.

We may just have to respectfully agree to disagree on the badge wearing policies. I doubt you'll find any AOII who will say we should change, because I believe that we all agree with what AOII stands for. Hopefully, we can all accept that each group believes that each member should hold her/his pledge pin or badge closest to their heart, in a place of supreme importance over all other organizational jewelry.

Fraternally,
Christin

I understand what you're saying, but then how would you decide which Badge to wear closest to your heart? Most organizations have rules that stipulate that the badge be worn over the heart (Alpha Phi does not), so even if you place them side by side, by placing one closer to your heart than the other, you're indirectly giving preference to one organization over another.


It's confusing, I know - but I think that the best solution in all of this would be for your friend to wear her SAI badge at SAI events, and then maybe wear a rose pin or other AOII jewelry to signify her link to AOII, and then at AOII events, wear her AOII badge and whatever 'recognition' pin (or other item of jewelry) that has special meaning to initiated members of SAI.

I don't think anybody is criticizing each other's organizations, so I don't think there's a need for anybody to get defensive here. I think most NPC organizations have similar policies to AOPi's, so it's not a matter of "attacking" one specific organization. (I can't speak for Tri Delta since I don't know our policies -- it's a nonissue for me because I don't wear any other jewelry with our badge.) It's a legitimate issue, though: what if you have two sororities that you love equally much, and you don't want to "play favorites" by picking only one pin?

I think the thing is that these policies were formed when it was very rare for someone to belong to more than one fraternity or sorority, especially a second social-type group like some chapters of SAI are. And just because our policies were right for the times back then doesn't mean they're still the best for the times now. Just because something is traditional doesn't mean it's flawless, and I think it may be time to at least go over the policies and see if there's a better policy that might work for today.

But until that happens (and it probably won't), of course, the easiest thing is just to not wear the two pins at the same time.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by AOIIalum



I do not know if you can take any comfort in this, but this ongoing thread has caused me to do a little research about your sisterhood. I like what I found, and congratulate your founders for realizing that there was a need for an organized social outlet celebrating and promoting what they loved, their common bonds in music. I've learned that membership in SAI is restricted, to those with some kind of connection to music and possibly the arts (unsure on that so far) and membership in a social sorority is allowed.



I'm glad you explored our sisterhood. :) SAI is restricted to musicians (vocal, instrumental...anything musical), but NOT just to music majors. I'm also glad that you liked what you found. In case you didn't know, SAI's symbol also is the red rose, and red and white are our colors as well. :D




Not all GLOs rituals have changed through the years, because not all GLOs have had to change. Some of the sororities and fraternities were blessed with forward-thinking founders who somehow had the knowledge and insight to create rituals that would stand the test of time through the decades.

That is why I said *almost* all. I know that not ALL did. :)

While I was in Women's Glee at Ole Miss, the ladies of SAI asked me to join. However, due to my school work and being a member of a GLO I didn't think I would have time. SAI at my school is all vocal majors and singers in glee and concert singers. TBS is for women in band. SAI at Ole Miss does not ask women outside of music to be involved with them. Just a thought.

Well, first of all, SAI as a whole is open to ALL musicians, although at some schools, it will tend to learn towards all vocalists or all instrumentalists. OUrs is mixed. TBS *is* only for band however.

When you say SAI there does not ask women outside of music to be involved with them, do you mean to pledge, or just to be involved with them? I mean you have to be a musician of SOME sort to pledge...because if you aren't a musician, why would you want to pledge SAI, a group whose sisterhood is tied to music?

Because SAI is not a social Greek/member of NPC, we do not do things like mixers, etc with other Greeks, except for other music Greeks like Sinfonians or TBS. I mean, there wouldn't be much point...most of the social Greeks on my campus look down at us and don't see us as Greek in the first place *sigh* and besides that, while I will argue all day and all night that we are JUST AS GREEK as an NPC sorority, we still have very different aims. Like NPC groups, we hold our ritual close to our hearts, and our sisterhood is strong and lifelong. However...music is our focus. We have nothing against the social Greeks; they serve their own purpose, and do a lot for the community and campus. We respect them. But we don't interact with other Greeks because, well, they wouldn't want us to, and I'm not sure it'd serve a purpose.

Does any of this make any sense?

Reading all this kind of hits home because I'm sure some of my long-ago sisters were in the same position. We were social-educational and I'm sure there were women who belonged to, for example, ASA and KKG and didn't want to place one above the other.

I meant that SAI is not going to ask someone who does not sing or play an instrument or who is creative in the arts or music to pledge SAI. I didn't mean it in a negative way. That is just how the ladies of SAI at Ole Miss are. They are nice and everything a lady should be.

Actually, having read AOIIs first ritual book (hand written by our founders), AOII's ritual has not changed since 1897 with the exception of a few words - seriously! I also would like to say that our founders were the ones that instituted the badge policy that you don't agree with. It is not to offend any other organization (as two of our founders were also in Phi Beta Kappa) but for the same reason our badge is so simple - AOII's importance is in her simplicity.

Here's a thought to chew on. . . what would you do if you were a member of two orgs that required you to wear each badge higher than any other? Basically you will still need to choose which badge was more important to be worn in the situation and not wear the other at all. That's not saying that one is more important, just that you would not technically be able to wear both at the same time. Or the point that Sistermadly states about which one you would wear closest to your heart for that matter. . .

I hope I don't come off as too curt, basically I'm saying that the member would need to decide which badge she would like to wear in whatever situation she was in. . .

Sarah

First, thanks Christin for at least acting like I'm not boring you. ;)

Second, without a doubt, many Sinfonian chapters stick close to the schools/departments of music. While we have no national (we're not international) policy requiring that our members be music majors/minors or even take music classes -- just that they love music and believe in its power -- there is no question that strong bonds usually exist between chapter and school/department. In many ways, this dates back to our "officially professional" days -- old habits sometimes die hard. It also probably has something to do with the nature of music schools/departments in many places -- sort of world unto themselves in many respects.

Other chapters are not so, shall we say, insular. I know of chapters where the majority of members are not music majors/minors.

Third, presently our national policy does allow dual membership in Sinfonia and another social fraternal. I know that at one point last year, our national HQ was trying to get data on how many collegiate brothers were members of another social GLO, but I don't know what they found out. I imagine that there may be a move to change this, and they were trying to find out how common it currently is. Certainly it will have to change if Sinfonia seeks membership in the NIC, which I keep hearing may be pursued.

Chapter policies may be more restrictive -- certainly they are for chapters that are in their campus's IFCs. My impression (no hard data on this), is that "dual membership" tends to be more common in chapters like you described -- those that stick close to the music school/department and act more "professional." In other chapters it is not, perhaps, as common. In most chapters I'm familiar with it would definately be frowned upon, because the brothers (1) would expect your primary loyalty to be to Sinfonia, and (2) would fear that your involvement in another GLO would compete with your involvement in Sinfonia. Just my take on it though.

Like I've said before, we're still trying to shift our understanding of our brotherhood back to what was intended by our founders, and away from the "professional" model we bore midway through our existence. It's taking time, but we're getting there!

off on a tangent...
 

[hijack]

This is a question for members of PMASinfonia & SAI who might know....have you found that your membership overall (in existing chapters and new chapters) has gone up since TBS and KKPsi went coed?

[/hijack]

I must correct you on one point. I am a member of two academic honorary GLOs and, contrary to your statement above, we do have initiation rituals. As a matter of fact, of these two organizations, one used to be a social fraternity and the other a social sorority before they decided to become academic honoraries. So, in fact, they both have full-blown ritual.

For what it's worth, having read the constitution of both orgs, the only guideline regarding the pins and keys is that they are to be worn only by members. There is no regulation regarding placement with other GLO badges.


.....Kelly :)

Thanks for correcting me there, Kelly. I didn't know that honoraries had ritual! That's cool! :) Do they have pledging too, or just an initiation ritual? Either way, I was just misinformed...people told me that honoraries are just honor societies and did not have any ritual. Anyways...thanks again for clearing that up! :)