Letters
 

When does your chapter give letters to new members? We don't give our new members their first set of letters until after they are intiated. We just changed this a few years ago. We used to get our first set of letters at Big/lil sis reveal.

we used to get our first sewn letters @ New Member pinning, but we changed it so that new members can't wear sewn letters so they get those at initiation ceremonies. Though you can wear event shirts or the words Alpha Gamma Delta so people usually give their littles old event shirts now.

my chapter used to give you your first set of letters at your initiation. however, according to alpha phi international, it's considered hazing to not allow new members to where letters. therefore, our chapter had to change and we now give them out on bid day. however, they don't get the actual letters, they get alpha phi bid day shirts, which have the words spelled out instead of letters.

the other glo's on my campus didn't take to this very well. however, we're forced to do so.

We could wear letters (stitched, screened, whatever) from bid day on...however, we did not get crests until initiation.

We have an open motto that corresponds directly to our letters so I think that may be part of why we have always allowed it.

That's the was is was, at least, for most fraternities I know of. Mainly, because you don't learn the mysteries of the crest (or coat of arms) until initiation.

I think pledges should not get letters until initiation because it makes "them" (was me last semester) put blood sweat and tears into getting to wear those letters....i got mine the day I was initiated it was awesome and really worth it. :D

my personal opinion is that you should receive your letters when you're initiated as well. only because i know in alpha phi at least, during the initiation ritual you learn WHAT the letters alpha and phi MEAN - why where letters if you don't know what they stand for?

The chapter of AXiD of which I am the advisor gives letter shirts right after the new member ceremony.

Same here with Phi Sigma Sigma. I know my chapter "adapted" to the rules, but some other chapters haven't done so.

I personally feel that new members shouldn't get wear letters until they are initiated because they don't know the meaning behind them. This is a touchy subject with me, so that's all I want to say about that.

Our pledges get rush shirts that usually have letters on them some where.

Not to make people mad (and I'll probably get flamed for this), but I think it's a crock of **** to make people wait to get their letters...for a number of reasons.

Someone said earlier why wear letters when you don't know what they mean. I look at it this way, that person bears your organization's and chapter's name during their new member period. Their actions can be just as damaging to your chapter or organization as an initiated member...just because they can't wear the letters doesn't not make them a part of your chapter (on a trial basis). Other than the fact that they don't know the ritual, and can't attend chapter meetings, there isn't much difference between them and an initiated member.

Also someone said that everyone should wait until initiation so that they put work in to earning them. Again, total BS. The letters arent' important, it's the prinicples behind them that matter. The letters have value to you because of what they mean to you, this is why personally I don't care if I were to see someone wearing my letters who wasn't in Beta, b/c to them, they really don't mean anything. Beta Theta Pi to them is the same as Kappa Kappa Gamma or any other Greek letters. Your Pledges and new members should work hard in order to learn the secrets of your organization and to have a life altering experience (as I think most people would say their initiation was).

I guess what I'm trying to say is look at what's really important in consideration to your letters, rather than the pettiness on when someone gets to wear them.

Tri Delta also considers not giving new members letters as hazing.

This issue was the source of MUCH controversy last semester, as we were a local who did not give new members letters (heck, they were even called pledges :eek: ) Our nationals came in, and next thing we know, everyone has letters.

I agree that you don't know the true meaning, and it is something to look foward to on intiation. We even had most of our new members say they wish they could have waited.

I'm not sure what this semester is going to bring. Personally, I would like them to be able to wear the *name* DELTA DELTA DELTA, but not the *letters* or the crest. I didn't get to wear my local letters until after initation, and there was just something that made it more special to recive them after initaion.

I made the case when speaking with our field consultant that if new members can wear the letters, what makes them special? What distinguishes us from anyone on the street? Is the next step going to be anyone who even has an interest in the organization get to wear letters? Is it going to include non Greeks, men, or sisters of other GLOs? My point is, if we want to distinguish ourselves from other people, we need to keep something sacred...and I believe that must be our secrets, which goes hand in hand with letters.


and I am now stepping off my soapbox. :)




edited because I can't spell...and there are probably more mistakes

In AEPhi new members aren't allowed to wear the Phi symbol until they are initiated. They are allowed to wear shirts like bid day t-shirts or formal t-shirts with Alpha Epsilon Phi or A-E-Phi written out. To us wearing letters means you're a sister of AEPhi and you're not a sister until you are initiatated. As for the crest I guess they can wear it or posess it or whatever you would do with a crest since our pledge pin is our crest.

I really doubt there are any glo's out there whose letters don't have a deeper meaning and if someone doesn't know what your letters stand for than they shouldn't be wearing them.

I'm sorry but I have to disagree...the point of the new member period is to really decide if these women are true "XYZ" material. You can't learn much about a person through a week or so's worth of formal parties. I know that many times, a chapter does discover things about a new member that they would rather not have as part of the chapter, thus they do not become an "XYZ" sister...

In my personal experience we have had new members who did extremely embarassing (and I don't mean like wearing white after labor day) things, but since everyone knew they were a new member, it didn't represent our chapter necesarily because the women were not initiated. It's a trial period for a reason.

But the letters are a very important symbol of what those principles are. I would very much dislike someone non-alpha phi wearing my letters, BECAUSE they don't know what they mean, and they don't have to right to represent my organization.

ShaunaF01 - I know that A Phi Int. says that keeping a NM from wearing letters is hazing, but we always figured that just because that might be true, doesn't mean we HAVE to give them letters. We can choose whatever we want to give as gifts, but if they went out and bought letters on their own we could not stop them from wearing it. That was just my chapter's take on the situation.

Alpha Gam new members were able to wear our letters on clothing and jewelry. But they were not allowed to have or wear the armorial bearings or the badge.

They were considered new "members" even back when we called them pledges.
I think it is great publicity for the groups letters to be seen all around campus. And expecially in freshman circles. This is extremely true on small campuses.

We're allowed to wear them during our new member period, but most of us didn't, and when we did it was only at sorority events.

I don't really understand how wearing the words "Delta Delta Delta" is any different than wearing the letters themselves, so I don't buy the whole make-them-earn-their-letters thing.

In my local, each pledge class got letters at initiation. We were allowed to wear the letters while pledging, but we got our "official" letter shirts, in our sorority colors, at initiation.

Like my sister AEPhiSierra said, AEPhi does not permit anyone but initiated sisters to wear letters. Often, big sisters would present their littles with their first letters right after initiation. It's not so much that new members have to "earn their letters" - more that when they are initiated and learn the meaning of the letters they can now wear, it's that much more meaningful. In the meantime, we give them plenty of bid day and event shirts (with the letters spelled out) so they can represent the sorority they're joining.

We're allowed to wear letters when we are new members. However, many choose not to. Often, big sis' give their lil sis' letters for an initiation gift. The only thing that new members are not allowed to wear is the crest.

We couldn't wear billboard letters until initiation... which is when you get your gifts from your big/family, which includes a set or 2 of billboard letters... but our bid day shirts have had the screen printed letters on them.

our pledges cant wear letters till they get initiated as well, its something that in my opinion needs to be earned.

When I pledged (and even with the new pledges coming in), we got to wear actual letters on Fridays, while the sisters wore letters on Mondays. But we weren't allowed to own our own set of letters until we became sisters, nor could we wear them on any day other than Friday. On our letter days, we borrowed letters from people in our family tree. That way, you get to wear letters, but you can also be excited about receiving your own from your big after sisterization. We also got lavaliers, etc, after sisterization. And during pledging, our bigs would give us random gifts with Alpha Rho Omega written on them, but when it came to letters, we were separate but equal, I guess.

I think that the extent to what hazing is defined these days is completely ridiculous. Witholding letters from pledges isn't hazing- they're not sisters, so they shouldn't be allowed to own a set of letters. It has nothing to do with how they represent the sisterhood or the fact they're on a "trial basis" as someone said. The fact of the matter is they are not sisters. They associate with you, yes, but so do many other people (ie: your organization's independent friends). If you're not a sister, you don't get letters. Period.

whoa...i wasn't going to post in this topic because i completely disagree with what a lot of you are saying...but this just made me need to post. if you have extended a bid to a woman she IS YOUR SISTER (using female 'cause i'm a sorority member but IMO it applies to everyone). she is a member of your org, if only provisional and deserves to be treated as such. why should she want to be initiated if you don't consider her to be a sister until that time? what is she while she is in her provisional member period? someone you can just cast aside? they come to meetings, they come to required events, they particiapte in mixers, they are often more involved (from what i've seen on my own campus) than sisters who have been initiated for a while. they deserve to be treated with equal respect, and if that means wearing letters then i am all for it.

okay, i'm climbing off my soapbox now

In my chapter, the general rule is that shirts with the words spelled out or screenprinted shirts that happen to have the Greek characters on it, i.e. bid day shirts, aren't an issue. However, the actual stitched block letters are reserved for post-initiation wearing.

You're confusing damaging with embarassing. If a pledge in my chapter was to be found guilty of using a date rape drug, that would reflect incredbily badly on my chapter no matter how fast we kicked them out. If a new member of Alpha Phi in your chapter were to fall off the roof of your chapter house, your chapter would be in legal trouble, and it could lead to the taking of your charter.

Granted the pledge period is a chance to see the potential these students have in becoming members of your org, but I have to again say that it matters more on whether they have earned the privilage of knowing your principles than it does on being able to wear your letters.



Would your pledge experience really have been that much different if you had been able to wear letters?

OK with a lot of what you guys are saying about ppl being sisters once they accept their bid, then why even have a new member period? Seeing as it's good enough that you liked them after knowing them for like 5 hours TOPS usually and they like your chapter enough to accept a bid after knowing it for like 5 hours; then I guess instead of taking the time to get to know the girl who may become a permanent representative of your org and for that girl to get to know you, then you should just initiate them right away. If they are sisters then they should be allowed to know all the ritual stuff, wear the letters, vote on issues, take an office, wear your badge, etc... like the 2nd day you know them!! Thats junk! I dunno about your chapters but we have had some characters who have accepted a bid that I really didn't want anyone to know was a new member of ours b/c they weren't a good representative of AGD. Do I want someone like that walking around my campus, wearing letters of my organization, representing themselves as a member, when they can't even represent themselves appropriately? Heck no! We have enough problems at times with our initiateds not acting right. Not to mention that I, and I hope all my other sisters, take the meanings of our letters very seriously, and if you don't know what they mean, you have no right to wear them. I was allowed to wear letters as a pledge, but I was also one of the biggest supporters of changing the rule. If I had it to do over again, I would wait to wear those letters because I wouldn't want to represent something I had really no knowledge of. I'm usually very politically correct, but I think this PC stuff about new members is obnoxious!! As long as you aren't hurting them physically, mentally or emotionally; then your chapter should have the right to do what you feel is right about whether or not you feel they are members. I feel they are affiliated, but not a member. Kinda like an auxiliary member. And I am not about to feel comfortable about a girl that I simply know "seems really sweet" representing my chapter when for all I know she is wearing those letters while humping a chain of guys after class or selling crack out of her car! Would you trust a new member with your wallet or your car? Then why would you trust her to wear something that should be nearly as dear to you?

We changed our rule to not giving letters out to new members specifically because we had new members who were not getting initiated wearing them after they had depledged. While a chapter can control what a member does in her letters they can't control what some random person who only pledged like 5 days. I received my letters before I was intitiated but looking back on it I did not give my letters the respect they deserved because there was no meaning behind them, now every time I put on my letters I remember at all times what they mean and stand for. Our new members are also not allowed to wear our crest. I have a question for the chapters who consider it hazing to not give out letters but find it ok not to let new members wear the crest. I don't mean any disrespect but how is it different. The new members are not allowed to wear something a intiated sister can, it's the same as not letting them wear letters.

Re: Are NM sisters? Yes they are. They don't know everything about fraternity yet, but as soon as you pin then, I say they're your sister. You're going to protect and support them as you would a sister. We have a NM period to allow the NM to learn about the organization. But, really, decision on whether to allow a women into the organization is done before she gets a bid, not after. I don't know about your organization, but it's really hard to force a NM to depledge where I am.

Re: Should NM wear letters? Hazing or not, not allowing NM to wear letters is silly IMHO. I mean, she's walking around wearing your NM pin, which often she doesn't know the true meaning of. She's representing your organization already. What's the deal with letters? If it's because she doesn't know the meaning of them - let's start reconsidering our NM pins....

Re: What if they depledge and own letters? Yes, those who depledge COULD still wear letters around? But really - how are you going to ensure that a NM never gets letters? Anyone can walk onto buykappa.com and buy a Kappa t-shirt. It's not like our badge or NM pin which must be ordered through HQ. NM can get letters, and if they depledge they could still wear them. Denying NM of the "right" of wearing letters doesn't stop this.

However, I'll note that no chapter should ever be forced to buy all their NM letters. Mine doesn't. We make our first set the night before initiation at the initiation sleep over. It's fun. However, if a NM was to buy letters before initiation - there would be no issue in them wearing them.

The travelling consultant put it best when she was here and this whole issue came up (some people in my chapter were really anti-NM-letters) she said: "What are you going to do if a NM wears letters? Kick her out? Isn't Kappa about more than t-shirts and letters?"

My chapter allowed new members to wear letters, and gave us our first letter shirts on Bid Day because the "real" Bid Day shirts hadn't come in or something. Anyway, for ever pledge class after that we've given out Bid Day shirts instead of letters, but new members can wear them if they want.

I agree with you completely. On Bid Day, we were given a set of chapter letters to wear. We were encouraged to wear them every Wednesday, just like initiated sisters, and to dress to pin, with our formal pledge pin, on Thursdays, just like initiated sisters. As our wonderful chapter advisor says, "Why WOULDN'T you want your beautiful new members wearing your letters?"

The new member period is just that: a time when you are new and learning the basic facts and functions of your new sisterhood. They don't call it a "half-way member period" or a "try before you buy period." If someone decides it's not really for them, they're free to de-pledge, but until that time, they have as much right to wear letters as a girl who's gone through initiation. In some cases, more, as some initiated sisters might not have the best reputation or represent their chapters in the best light, yet are still allowed to wear letters, and don't have to "earn the right."

There are two sides to every issue, and some of the reasons against new members wearing letters are actually rather valid. However, my own personal opinion is that it should be an accepted practice. Thank you, and good night. :D

At my college, Bid Day was on Saturday. To classes on Monday, all new members from all the sororities wore letter sweatshirts (our rush was in the winter) with their "pledge pins" and ribbons. It was fun to look around to see who went to which sisterhood. Very festive! These new members clearly took a lot of pride in their letters. Once the meaning is revealed I think the respect is not MORE, it's just at a DEEPER level.

Erica

Alright, this seems to be a heated topic, but I have to speak up. No offense, but some of these opinions are seem a bit ridiculous to me. First off, a note on hazing, cuz that seems to be a strong argument against withholding letters from a new member. If you look at the definition of hazing (as far as it relates to greek organizations at least), it cites some pretty specific examples but goes on to be quite vague. It basically includes ANYTHING that a new member does not want to have to do for any reason. So, if I don't feel like taking a test in my Heat Transfer class, that would be hazing if I was "pledging" engineering (which I feel like I am doing some days...) The point is, if some Nationals and most administrators had it their way, new member programs would consist of Greeks handing out their letters to anyone who shows up to the house, regardless of what the organization's thoughts on them are (I mean, EVERYONE deserves a chance, right?), you'd sit around eating pizza and talking about your feelings and politely asking that the new members learn as much as they can about your organization. After say two weeks or so, they get initiated under your Ritual. And now, they may not even be able to remember the date your chapter was founded or the history of your National but they get to know the meaning of your letters and any other secrets you might have.
To me, my letters mean so much to me, that they're NOT for everybody. Does everybody deserve a chance? YES! Should they be handed letters just for showing interest? No. I'm a firm believer that you should EARN your letters, it makes them so much more special, and you can love them all the more. It's like this: if your parents buy you a car when you turn 17 (or 16 for states other than NJ :-P ) you probably won't treat it was as much respect or care as if you had to work for two years to afford it. Just like a car it doesn't matter what your letters are, or which are more attractive or popular in the eyes of your campus, it only matters what's the best "car" for you, and that you appreicate it. A good new member program is meant to teach you respect for your letters, so that when you EARN them, not get HANDED them, you can appreciate it more and know something that those who simply sat around and got some shirts thrown at them can never appreciate. How can that mean something if you just get them like that? But if you work for them, if you slowly over the period of a month or so go over the history and ideals of your organiztion, if you proudly strut around in your letters, teaching your Postulants (yes, at AXP, we call them Postulants, since "pledge" denotes hazing) the same pride, it will mean so much. And on that night when they are initaited under your Ritual, they can truly appreciate the solemness (is that a word?) and importance of that special ceremony. There has to be some build up, some anticipation. You wouldn't give your kids their Christmas presents in October would you? If you did, Christmas wouldn't be all that special.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying you should haze your NM, that's just wrong too. But paddling them or locking them in a room for 24 hours or making them swallow goldfish is hazing, asking them to wait to wear letters until they've earned them, asking them to wait to share in such a special priveledge, that's not hazing.
Personally, when I pledged, my fraternity was on the edge of dying, so they took it really easy on us. Honestly, I didn't feel like I earned my letters, so I try still to make up for it by doing all I can for them. Not everyone feels this way however. A NM period is a way to see who is right for your organization. We've made mistakes in the past, and people have dropped our program or even were asked to leave. I shudder to think what our organization would be like now if they had become Brothers. Also, even years after initation, we've still found we made mistakes, as people committed serious offenses against the organization or individual Brothers, or just up and left (another de-Brotherment offense if our National's eyes). I've realized taht not only do you have to earn the right to wear your letters and represent people all around the country who have the same, but also you need to earn the right to keep them. By working hard and being dedicated, you can do this. By handing a NM his or her letters right away, odds are they won't take them as seriously, despite what those of you who will be flaming back at me are going to say. It may have worked for you, just like it may have worked for me, but it won't for the majority of people.

But anyways, to answer the question:
Our Bigs give out letters on the last night of pledging, which is usually a few days or a week before initaition. Although if they chose, they can wear ALPHA CHI RHO spelled out, since this is not under the technical definition of "letters."

Sorry for the long post, but I had to get that off my chest. Please rememeber that I have a right to my opinion just as you do to yours.

This is another one of those topics where people dig in their heels and have their opinion and don't change and the 2 sides will never agree.

The way I look at it is, I can only speak from my own org. We have an open motto that corresponds to our letters, so I don't see anything wrong with NMs wearing them. They (and everyone else who cares) know that ASA stands for "Aspire, Seek, Attain."

I can't say how I would feel if our letters stood for something completely different and I didn't know what it was till initiation - because I've never had that experience. I don't think that I can tell anyone else how to feel about their letters and the wearing of them, because they're THEIR letters, not mine.

Ok, so I guess the question is: When does someone become your brother/sister? Is it when they are inducted into the NM class? Is it when they are initiated?

Of course everyone is going to have their own take on it. I personally believe that someone is not a brother/sister until they are initiated. Its one thing to show interest in an organization, but its another to show enough dedication and admiration to go through the NM process, and say that this particular organization is the one for you. The whole pledging process is not only to let NM's get to know more about the organization, but also to see how much this person cares. I'm sure they are lots of people who think they would like to be KKG's or ChiO's, but its the people that put in the work and show their love that make it.

I totally agree with the comment about making people earn their letters. Why would want something handed to you? Anything worth having is worth waiting for, and it makes it that much more special.

Applause for AXPGoBot
 

AXPGoBot, I think you've put your views, and that of many others, in the best light. Kudos. :)

I think I can pretty safely say that the majority of Sinfonians would say that a man is not a brother until he has been initiated. Probationary members (our term for the guys who used to be called "pledges") are certainly potential brothers whom we should treat like brothers, but we would not call them brothers until they have been fully initiated.

thank you erica....that is exactly how i felt.

When I pledged I could not wear greek letters. When the sisters had weekly letter days, the pledges wore DPhiE pledge class shirts. I received and wore my first set of letters from my big sister at my initiation. I am not sure how other chapters handle this issue.

My roommate who was a founder of the Alpha Phi chapter received letters at induction, but wore a pledge pin.

I'm sorry, but I can't see how much pride you can have in something that's handed to you over a weekend. There's definitely a limit to the amount of respect you can feel when you do things like that.

My letters and my Ritual mean more than that.

At the risk of getting flamed....
 

I have to agree w/ most of the opinions on this thread: when I pledged, our class didn't wear/receive letters until initiation. Mind you, there's a place on campus where you can get letters to put on sweatshirts etc and no active could/would stop you from buying and wearing them (ahem "hazing") but I think it's more worthwhile to wait until initiation to wear letters, I was SO looking forward to being able to wear them and as mentioned many times before it just meant more afterwards!

I agree... but who are you to tell your NM they can't. But there's a difference between just not giving NM letters to wear during the NM period, and forbidding them from wearing them. What would you guys do if a NM wore letters?

I can't talk for your organization, and I can't talk for KKG, but to me, to get angry at a NM for wearing my letters does not still well with my understanding of ritual (which I'm not mentioning - don't worry!). A NM is my sister...

Kappaloo:

honestly, I really don't know how I'd react if I saw a Postulant walking around in letters. It's just sorta understood here at our school that the NM's don't wear letters till they get in. And despite what you think, I'm sorry but I'll aruge till the day I die that a new member is not a full sister/brother. You don't become that until you are initaited under the Ritual of your organization. I can't speak for your laws or whatever, but as far as our national goes, it is made very clear that a man isn't a "Brother" until paying his initation fees and then partaking in the ceremony.

You're right, nothing is stopping a NM from going into our campus baookstore, buying letters, and wearing them. Just like nothing is stopping me from ordering a Kappa Kappa gamma shirt and proudly strutting around in it. The letters don't make the Brother/Sister, it should just be one of the perks. But I'll say it again to be clear, YOU ARE NOT A FULL BROTHER/SISTER UNTIL INTIATED UNDER RITUAL. Otherwise, what's to stop me from saying that I could go to a Delta Chi or Kappa Sigma Bid Party and then walk around claiming I'm a Brother? It's just wrong.

Sorry if you disagree, but it's just wrong. Can anyone back me up here? Maybe I'm not explaining all this right...