Is there a happy medium for MIP
 

NPHC greeks,

It is obvious that everyone is unhappy with the current MIP process. I have read threads about people's thoughts on paper vs. sands...what would be a happy medium...what would an acceptable way to pledge an org without getting beat down, without worrying about law suits, meanwhile still giving people the opportunity to take part in the tradition of being on line and earning your letters?
Secondly, if there was a happy medium do you think fraternities would be able to ever stop beating down their initiates? Is it a man thing do beat on each other since they do it in the military and other fraternal organizations? What is the purpose of getting wood anyway ?

Peace & Blessings
For MIP to be modified, people would have to first realize that what "Real" pledging is all about. Real pledging does not constitute being constantly beaten like a recalcitrant child. The purpose of getting wood IS ONLY SUPPOSED TO BE GIVEN AT ONE POINT DURING THE PLEDGE PROCESS, NOT THROUGHOUT. I cannot speak on my organization's symbolism. But, through my personal research on fraternal organizations(BGLOs, Masons, etc), the wood comes from the African Rites of Passage.
ANYBODY CAN TAKE PAIN!!!!!
It takes a true & real woman/man to learn the history of their respective organization and not only memorize it but EMBRACE IT.
The same Sorors & Frat that condemn you for being "paper" are the same ones that you NEVER SEE at a service project or even a scholarship luncheon. You only see them at a session, a party, boatride, etc. And, what kills me is that they still wear paraphernalia and they haven't been financial since they crossed. Overall, if you are not going to do right by your organization, then don't even mention that your a member. When you represent your organization, you BETTER represent it well!!!!!
So, when you wrap all of these elements up together, this is what you get...people, who are members of our organizations, that criticize and half-kill pledgees.
The happy medium will only come when people realize that the BRUTALITY is unnecessary and you can reap all of the fruits of being members of our illustrious organizations, just the same.

TrueGeekLove, I apologize for going off on a tangent but, there are cerain things that need to be said...thank you
SapphireSensation

Well said SapphireSensation.

What does MIP stand for? Please tell me, I honestly don't know.

MIP = Membership Intake Process

M.I.P. stands for "Membership Intake Process".

TrueGreekLove,
I just want to say that your concerns are very valid, but seem to be speaking in a genralizing manner.

If I weren't in a BGLO, I would think that all BGLO, mainly fraternites, only beat their pledges down, when that really isn't the case. A majority of the chapters have successful MIP. We should be careful in how we make statements.

I will say that there needs to be some changes in Membership Intake Process. Because the extreme hazing incidents seem to be on the rise.

SaphireSensation,
I like reading your responses. You stated that the main sorors/frat condeming people for being "paper" are the ones who are basically T-shirt wearers. It seems that people always use that statement as a defense as it relates to being termed "paper." I will have to disagree with you. It is my belief, which is based on my perceptions and experiences, that alot of the people condeming are the ones doing all of the work. I myself have been guilty of it in the past.

Yes, there will always be t-shirt members that "pledge" and are not considered "paper". There are also hard working members who are considered "paper".

My belief is that people who pledge are more likely to be active than people who are considered "paper." Why because people who pledge have put alot of effort and time into their organization. Why would someone who is "paper" remain active? All they have done basically is pay their money and wear letters. Is that really fair?

I know that NPC orgs haze as well, but being that I am interested in NPHC that is the reason that I threw that question out there, but thanks for making that comment. I agree that people shouldn't just sign on the dotted line and get letters...but that leads back to my original question. Is there a happy medium between working to obtain your letters, and being beat down to obtain your letters....how can orgs ensure that their interest cross the sands the "proper" way without putting themselves in a situation that might end up in suspension of their chapter? Why can't traditions and rituals be kept but minus taking wood? If you didn't take wood does that make you paper?

TrueGreekLove,
I am sensing that you really have a problem with the "wood". Is that the only perception you have of pledging BGLOs? There is so much that stems past the "wood".

I will say that intake varies from chapter to chapter while still following national guidelines. Being paper is not about not taking "wood". Its about going through something, making a sacrifice, and being loyal with all of your heart.

I believe that if our chapters supervised individual members of the organization during intake, alot of the incidents would not have taken place.

We need to weed out the individuals who seem to lose control.

In my near 10 years membership in an NPHC organization, I have seen NO correlation between those who have pledged and those who have not pledged in relationship to service rendered. I know far more who have pledged and are inactive as those who have not pledged who are active.



[This message has been edited by Finer Woman10-A-91 (edited July 06, 2000).]

True....
You might take a few moments and read the thread under the hazing forums entitled wood - there may be some good insights and parallels for you...

FinerWomanhood,
If I may ask, were you intiated in 1991? Also, when did you graduate from college?

My response to you saying you "see more inactive people who pledged" would be that there a whole lot more people who have pledged as opposed to going through "paper". If I am incorrect, I will stand corrected. Were there many people considered "paper" within the years of
1991-1995? There weren't too many in my area and I pledged Sp. 97. If there was no one considered "paper" in those times, then how could possibly see any correlation.

I did cross in 1991. And yes, you are right comparatively there are faaaaaaaaar more people who pledged prior to 1990. However, I am talking about those people that I know personally. I know as many Sorors and Frat ( and other Greeks) from pre-pledge days as I know of those who have not pledged. After almost 10 years, you stop asking what a person did while they were on line...the stories only vaguely change with embellishment here and there.

I am from the school of thought that basically says if you want to be technical everyone from FA90 and on are "new school" regardless to what may be real by way of process.

I take offense to anyone who would refer to any of my Sorors as paper. It's been said a million times...the real pledging begins after you cross. I know MAD HAZERS that I have not seen since I crossed. Go figure.

Again this is my personal experience.




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Zeta Phi Beta Sorority, Incorporated...Every Finer Woman's Dream!

Actually I guess I am just confused and aggravated when i speak to greeks who act like gang bangers...like if you weren't "jumped in" than you aren't respected. I have a greek home girl who always says that she would give love to her sorors in terms of saying hi and bye to them, because they were her sorors but she would never feel no real bond with them if they didn't come through the "right" way. I have seen girls shunned and totally treated wrong because they were considered paper...i have seen the hurt on peoples faces when someone comes up to them and hugs them for being greek and than immediately asked them what school they pledged at and if they say they went through grad, they get "oh" like pledging grad is a disease. On the flip side, I see interests willing to risk their lives just to ensure no one calls them "paper". For all the stories you hear about orgs getting sued, and all the chapters that get suspended for years on the yard you would think this would make people think twice about beating history into someone's head but it doesn't...it's hard for me to see that initiation is more than wood, when it seems like all the greeks i know are "wood" crazy...Like i said I am all for going through a process and working hard for your letters, there simply has to be a better way than the current way. I was also dating this guy in college that was on line for xyz fraternity and that boy came home every night hurt from a beat down, what is the purpose of this? When i lived on campus the GLO's use to have their initiates run through our campus naked singing their fraternity hymn...what is the point of that? How is beating my ass or making me humilate myself in public going to make me love your organization any more than i would going through in another way?

People love to use that word "respect" as a reason for violating the MIP of their orgainzation. My question has always been "Who's respect do you want?" If you think that I have to do ANYTHING outside of the prescribed program of Delta Sigma Theta Sorority inc to earn your respect.. I don't need your respect!!! Now whether or not I have a problem with the MIP of my sorority is another question, but Delta, and I'm sure all of the other BGLOs and GLOs have a "proper" way of changing rites and rituals if they are not working. If I have a problem with the way things are spelled out for me to conduct MIP, I have a course of action that I will follow.

The other thing that fires me up is when one greek says who they will or will not respect based on the way they think that person should have been inducted into that organization. Their is only one greek orgainzation on the face of the planet in which I have a say over who gets made and how! I couldn't care less how AKAs, ZPhiBs SGRhos, AXO, ADPi or anyone else is made. I have respect for all of those orgainzations, and if they say they're members, and thier big sisters say they are members, I have nothing left to do than congradulate them and add their name to the Pan Roll Call.

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If you can't raise conciousness, at least raise hell!--Rita Mae Brown

Gina_Lynn the points you make are valid, but it seems like very few greeks I have met see things the way you do...obviously many more greeks think that hazing is acceptable hence all the law suits and suspensions. I wonder what greeks would do if their orgs were sued right out of existence? That's a good question how would you guys feel if your orgs went bankrupt and ceased to exist due to hazing and law suits?

Taykimson,

Although I am not in a BGLO, I think you make an excellent and valid point.

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Sincerity, Loyalty, Unity
Sigma Lambda Upsilon: Hasta La Muerte!

[This message has been edited by Serenity (edited July 09, 2000).]

Taykimson,

To the extent that the 10000lb weight analogy is accurate, I agree, but I have never, NEVER heard of an incident of hazing in which some non-collegiate member didn't either know something about what was going on, have reason to suspect what was going on, or was involved in the underground process. This tells me that Alums will haze with or without the undergrads. Its a problem with the system, not the type of chapter.

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If you can't raise conciousness, at least raise hell!--Rita Mae Brown

Gina_lynn,

There are more hazing incidents with undergrad - PERIOD. This is evidenced by chapter suspensions. The majority of suspension are for undergrad chapters.

Are graduate members looking the other way? Yes, in some cases. But for those same grad members that choose to look the other way, this does not mean they practice this activity in their grad chapter.

Again, as I stated in my original post, naturally I am not for eliminating the undergrad experience especially since I was initiated undergrad. I am making a point.

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Alpha Kappa Alpha
17-Alpha Phi-91



[This message has been edited by Taykimson (edited July 09, 2000).]

I hear you TrueGreekLove and Gina-lynn. The sad thing about it TrueGreekLove is I think what you suggested is exactly what will have to happen for people to understand they must follow the rules.

My personal opinion, I don't think my sorority or any other organization would allow hazing to destroy the sorority as a whole. However, I do believe my sorority would do something as drastic as say - eliminating the undergraduate process to ensure future livelihood of the sorority. I'm sure some of you will say that I'm truly out to lunch especially given undergrad is where it all began. But that is my opinion. Do you keep the 1000 lb weight and allow the entire ship to sink? Or do you throw the weight overboard and keep moving? Not to suggest that undergrad chapters are dead weight, I was initiated undergrad and would be very upset if undergrad were eliminated. On the other hand, I don't want to see a 92 year legacy reduced to a memory either.

Another side note, I'm sure there were those that say 15 years or so ago would have never thought that above ground pledging would not officially be part of the undergrad process...

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Alpha Kappa Alpha
17-Alpha Phi-91



[This message has been edited by Taykimson (edited July 09, 2000).]

Wow! that is a truely scary idea that you brought up about the possible elimination of the undergrad chapters. That is like taking away the very essence of the greek orgs. Like you said that's where it all started. Membership would probably drop drastically considering that most people go greek undergrad and want to have the experience of pledging. It seems hard enough to get undergrads to continue on to grad chapter from what I hear, so I am sure it undergrads coming in strictly through grad would never happen. Shoot, one of my good friends love him to death but the boy mentally never transitioned over to his grad chapter for his frat.. I mean dang some people swear such allengience (sp?) to their undergrad chapter you would swear they didn't join an org but just that chapter. If the idea of maybe not having an org to belong to anymore or possibly losing the whole undergrad process as a whole doesn't scare people than I don't know what will. Considering that I want to plege...I would be seriously upset to work my butt off for the love of my org only to have a few fools cause me to lose my org.

I have spoken on a this before. As an interest no matter how much I want to be a part of my chosen org. I will not take a beat down. Period. I wish that the nphc orgs. would stop risking the possible suspensions of there chapters for such petty bs. I am quite sure most people would have no problem with mip as long as it does not get physical. I ask those who take part in this kind of behavior, just how does hitting someone help them to be a better soror or frat?! I know a girl who went through the whole process (beat down and all), but was denied membership at the end. All the girls she was online with consider her "paper". Is that fair? I feel bad for her because they give her no respect. The thing is though that looks bad on their org. When will all the greeks realize that you can not control how someone came in. If they are in then they are in. It does not matter if you do not consider them your soror or frat, still they are. How can someone say "well i just can not love her/him the same cause she is paper" please. You all should love each other regardless. Then you want to teach your interests and prospectives about bonding and respect yet some of you do not even respect each other. I have said it before but let me say it again: When a parent beats a child is that out of love? When a man beats a woman is that out of love? I think not! So when A sister (of an org) or a brother (of an org) beats their pledgees how the HELL is that out of love. Giving one wood or whatever kind of beating one may recieve while online does not teach them their history nor does it teach them how to bond with their line sisters or brothers. It does not make one love the org. more. What it does do is create resentment. Alot of which is pointed at those that did not recieve the same MIP as those that were hazed. Instead of resenting people that are "paper" (as you all call them) what you should be doing is resenting the ones that kicked your a**. If the MIP process for some orgs and chapters had not become so fierce, then there may not have ever been someone out there to call "paper".

You said it girl. Those "real" sorors and frats need to keep it "real" and be not just financial but active with their time, talents and abilities. They down those "paper" folks but, while they do nothing for the organization besides publicize their existence when they sport paraphenalia.

I would have to disagree with your reasoning behond "real" pledges being more active than paper. I would have to say it may be more likely because the "paper" ones are downed and condemed so much for the way that they entered the "sisterhood or brotherhood". I mean to have your sorors or frats do everything but call you or treat you like a child of God is a hurtful thing. We need to embrace everyone regardless of how they "got in".
You asked why would someone who is "paper" remain active? Well maybe it is because they really love the organization. How about for the same reasons that you are active, if infact you are. Just something to think about.

Until we stop glorifying pledging and talking about the way we pledged there will be problems with the MIP process.There is no PLEDGING in the NPHC. Someone mentioned the fact that interests want to be hazed so they won't be called "paper" . Why the need to satisfy an interest? We have a process to follow and as a member why would I jeporadize my pearls, which I proclaim to love so dearly, to give an initiate the right to say they were pledged.
The only paper any interested party should be concerned with is the one that says Mary Sue is a member of XYZ Sorority or Fraternity. What you did to earn that paper is between you and the members that brought you through. But you have it and it has been signed, sealed and delivered from your National office. http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif

That 1000lb weight is getting heavier, note the number of suspended undergrad chapters. If they can't follow the rules we can't allow a few to jeopordize the future for all.
So eventually all will be disbaned.

PEOPLE WAKE UP! WE ARE GONNA LET THIS WHOLE DEBATE BRING US TO OUR DOWNFALL. YOU DON'T THINK IT CAN HAPPEN? KEEP DISRESPECTING YOUR FELLOW FRAT/SOROR ON THE BASIS OF HOW THEY CAME INTO YOUR BOND. THAT'S JUST WHAT THOSE ANTI-GREEK PEOPLE WANT. WE ARE TOTALLY LACKING ON THE LEVEL OF SISTERHOOD/BROTHERHOOD EXEMPLIFIED BY OUR FOUNDERS. OUR FOUNDERS ARE TURNING OVER IN THEIR GRAVES. WE WERE ALL FOUNDED TO UPLIFT OUR COMMUNITY AND TO SERVE THEM. NOT TO BE PLEDGED. YOU CAN JOIN MANY OTHER ORGANIZATIONS JUST TO BE PLEDGED AND TO SAY YOU BELONG TO SOMETHING SECRET. IF THAT'S THE CASE, THEN TO EACH IT'S OWN. IF YOU WANNA SERVE THE COMMUNITY, THEN STOP THIS BULLSHIT OVER PAPER V. PLEDGING. WE KEEP REHASHING THIS WHEN OUR COMMUNITIES ARE IN DIER NEED OF BETTER SCHOOLS. WE KEEP KILLING PLEDGES WITHOUT EVEN A THOUGHT ON HOW WE KEEP GIVING PEOPLE A REASON TO SUE US OUT OF EXISTENCE. WAKE UP! THIS IS THE TIME FOR US TO COME TOGETHER AS ONE AND SHOW THE WORLD THAT WE ARE A UNITED FORCE. BUT WE CAN'T DO THAT IF WE FIGHT WITH EACH OTHER ABOUT THE INTAKE PROCESS. NO ONE CAN CONTROL HOW THEY WERE BROUGHT INTO THE BOND. BIG BROTHERS, BIG SISTERS, AND ADVISORS HAD THE UPPERHAND. IF YOU WANNA BE MAD AT SOMEBODY, BE MAD AT THEM. THEY ARE THE ONES THAT MADE PEOPLE "PAPER". PEOPLE I'M SORRY IF I SOUND UPSET BUT THIS TOPIC IS GETTING AS OLD AS THE HAZING DEBATES AND THE WHY BGLO'S CAN'T GET ALONG. PEOPLE FOR THE LAST TIME, WAKE UP!

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KAPPA ALPHA PSI FRATERNITY, INC.
SPR 97
XI LAMBDA

Well said, Nupe4Life.

For the past 2 years I've had the joyous responsibility - as an undergrad - of redirecting my chapter's intake process from a hazing process to an fully functioning MIP process. It's been torturous for me - much worse than anything (and that was quite a bit) I endured while I 'pledged' - but it has proven successful and will continue to be successful. Is there a happy medium? Only if members first observe MIP then work (and it very hard work - much harder than swinging wood or belittling someone) to EDUCATE IN A BROTHERLY/SISTERLY MANNER their new inductees. Remember it is our priority as Sorors/Frat to caringly and carefully facilitate the elevation of our new inductees to the level of true Soror/Frat. Emancipated minds will understand what I mean, but those of you still warped by your shackles will twist my words.

Ok, Nupe4Life, you definitely got my attention and now I have the "Dap at the end of 'School Daze' ringing the bell and shouting WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAKE UPPPPPPPPPPPPPP! to the whole campus while Spike's dad's jazz score was playing in the background" visual. I am in complete agreement with your words.

My only addition: if people are so concerned about their organization's MIP process, GET AND STAY FINANCIAL, BE ACTIVE IN A CHAPTER/REGION, and BECOME A VOTING DELEGATE TO YOUR REGIONAL/NATIONAL DECISION-MAKING BODIES!!

VibrantEnchantress & Snazzylady:

Both of you have valid points, and I agree with of you.

I am very active. I was president this last year, and will remain active until I die.

I am not trying to generalize, but anything worth having, takes hard work. I just can't see how anyone who didn't go through anything can really appreciate what they have worked for. Sure, they'll be excited the first semester or two, but when the real work comes, they become dust in the wind or seem to all of a sudden have other obligations or just don't come through for the organization. I've seen it happen too many times on my campus. (not in my organization)

Nevertheless, I have seen dedicated members considered "paper", who work harder than anyone, so this discussion really will depend on individual perceptions and experiences.

-hey!!! i think everyone needs to chill for a minute, and clam down.

-TrueGreekLove, i think that your being a non-member of an NPHC org. prohibits you from accurately commenting on what is worthwhile and necessary for NPHC orgs.

-i am a member of Phi Beta Sigma (spr99), and when i came into my org, i was pledged. i truly believe that what me and my line brothers went through bonded us and made us realize the gravity of what we were undertaking; this is what I know personally. greekdom is a big priveledge and resposibilty, and entrance into a BGLO is not to be undertaken lightly. i love my organization and have a lot of pride in it. [if you were wondering, i AM financial]. this is why a lot of folks who were pledged have a problem with poeple who are "paper", they haven't worked nearly as hard coming in, and that is just the way some folks look at it.

-myself, i don't have a problem with ANYONE in my frat who is "paper", because when it all comes down to it, what i respect most of all is someone who works hard for sigma, period. once you're frat, you're frat and f*ck what anybody has to say about how you came in; i'm gonna respect you and treat you like my brother either way. i DO think, however, that going grad while you're an undergrad is a BAD idea. doing this undermines your whole fraternal experience, but that's another topic for later...

-it has been proven, through sociological research, that when people share a common hardship or experience, they form a unique bond. does this mean that beating someone's *ss is the only way, NO! pledging a BGLO should be difficult, but not health/life-threatening. so, i do believe that there is a happy medium. what it is remains to be seen. it will take courage among chapter leaders.

-members of organizations who don't do anything for that org. don't have a right to make another member feel bad because they didn't pledge. i have seen the disillusionment that comes from that. but by the same token, people who did not plegde don't have the right to judge a member who did. i have seen the hostility and the rage that comes from that. AND, non-members are not in a position to question the purpose of pledging or "going paper". where there is a choice, it is up to each individual to decide if he/she wants to risk serious injury to join an org. where there is no choice either way, you do what you gotta do if you feel that this particular org. truly has something to offer, and you have something to bring to it...

-and that's just MY $19.14 !!!

I feel as though one needs some kind of physical pain when trying to enter a fraternity, I say this because first off NOT EVERYONE CAN TAKE PAIN. When pain is brought into the equation it allows the members to truly see how much the initiant really wants to be a part. Anyone can memorize facts and information. It isn't hard to read information and spit it back out in a comfrotable atmosphere. If an org is really in the business of making better men/women, they must test the individuals in every way possible. They need to be tested mentally, spiritally, and physically. There are also other lessons that can be learned from moderate physical trials. One key lesson is hummiliation, and nothing is more hummiliating than taking wood or something of that nature. I must say in closing that I do not advocate mindless beating of pledgees but I do feel as though for someone to just get a few signatures, write a essay or two, and learn information is not enough to join an orginization. The test of a man is the fight that he makes.

I wasn't going to comment on this seeing as I'm non-greek,but the post above by Wood Slanger made me mad.

It's posts like the one above that continues the unfair steorotype that non-greeks have about the greek system. Is that the way you recruit prospectives to your organization? And who are you to dictate what makes a man? The last time I checked character makes a man--not how much "wood" he took.

Maybe I've overreacting,but this kind of attitude "You're nothing unless you get beat down" irritates me

You're definitely overreacting, because this guy is unregistered, and he got exactly the kind of reaction he wanted. I find it best to ignore posts like that. Don't lose faith. I think you should have to do SOMETHING to prove your worth and become a brother/sister, but actual pain is not something you should have to deal with! Believe me, I didn't get hazed one iota, and I'm just as dedicated as the next guy!

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Steve Corbin
Lambda Chi Alpha
Theta Kappa Chapter
Rose-Hulman Inst. of Tech.

I agree w/ Corbin. You need to igg this person, because I don't believe he's a Greek.