Religion a factor?
 

Now, I know that most groups were founded with a Christian or Jewish background and have moved away from that so membership is all-inclusive, but I was wondering if religion had ever been an issue for anyone's chapter with regards to an active or a PNM.

One of our sisters was an acknowledged Christian witch. She'd been having some problems with the group as a whole since rumors flew and angry words were exchanged and never retracted. In the end, she deactivated because she felt isolated -which is SO wrong to have in a sisterhood.

Anyway, to my point: At the height of the tension in the house, our president and house mom were having awful nightmares, and the president and VP were both having bad reactions to new hair products. Their conclusion? That the resident witch hexed them. :rolleyes:

Besides the fact that this is totally against the rules of karma (any self-respecting witch would avoid a karmic butt-bite) and against Christian ideals, this stupid theory ignored the fact that despite all the problems, the accused loved the girls very much and talked about how they all swooped in on her one day and took her in.

It just really, really angered me, especially since they told my friend who had just signed a COB bid. I wanted her to have a better impression of the group than that close-minded paranoia. *sigh*

I just wanted to know if anyone has ever dealt with a similar situation, (PLEASE tell me if you have -I need some reassurance in that my sisters are not the only silly children in the world) and how you dealt with it. I'm pagan, but I'm not so sure I want to come out to my sisters, seeing the way their minds work when angry.:eek:

We've never really had a religion issue in my house before. We have christian , jews, muslims, and hindu. But we 've never had any members with a "new age" religious background I guess. A lot of people are not very familiar with the pagen lifestyle so I can completely understand how your chapter could act that way. Maybe you guys can set up some kind of religious tolerance workshop or seminar.

I do know that many GLOs were founded on certain religious beliefs (Christian, Jewish, etc.), but I've never heard of a situation like yours. Whatever happened to diversity?

I think the problem is that a lot of people hear the word "witch" and either freak out or automatically think "weirdo!", which isn't completely fair. As you said, any self-respecting witch would never hex someone so that their hair products didn't work. :rolleyes: But people are afraid of the unknown, so while I don't think the reaction of the chapter is justified, I can understand it.

I'm sorry I don't have any good advice for you because my chapter never had a situation even remotely close to something like this, but I do wish you luck in sorting it out. You did say your sorority sister was a Christian witch, didn't you...so what are they all up in arms about?

Achtung, I think it's the fact that they don't really know anything about the ethics of witches in general, much less a Christian witch. Actually, most of them probably don't even realize that such a thing is possible.

That, and the ex-active in question was involved with some boy-stealing scandal that had the house in an uproar. Honestly, though, she was just trying to get attention from her sisters who had been alienating her. So there was bad mojo, which I guess made it easier for the sisters to point fingers when they had allergic reactions and stress-induced nightmares. In a house that tense, who wouldn't have nightmares?

I'm just scared that if I come out, if I ever get in an argument with someone and their, oh, I don't know, computer crashes and they lose the 15 page paper they've been slaving on nonstop for two weeks, they'll blame it on me. I don't even have the 'Christian' thing to protect me. :p

I would reccomend for SG&D you bring in a religious studies prof and talk about religious differences. Having a professional knowledgeable in this area moderate a discussion between sisters might help. As you know AST was founded on Christian ideals, but we in no way are a Christian Sorority and the minds of the sisters who feel this way need some exercise. Talk about the problems and differeneces. I would also treat the example in the beginning as though more was going on. There may have been other issues that you are not aware of, or even privledged to mention here. Stealing boys is not Trustworthy. I don't care how upset you are, it is childish and has no place in the sorority. Good Luck!

Maybe you should do a religious tolerance workshop, as has been suggested. Seriously. Most people I know think witches worship the Devil...:D

Maybe you shouldn't come out with your own religious beliefs until all this has been worked out.

Actually, we've had problems where girls who WEREN'T religious who worked furiously to remove any aspect of religion they could. It was like they had a vendetta against religion. I would read something inspirational to the girls and if it mentioned anything remotely religious, you could see them shuddering.

I don't care what religion you are, but I don't think it's good for someone spiritually and mentally to be so vehemently against religion. Even as a religious person, I don't think it's good to be so incredibly fanatical about your religion. It's a matter of balance, and it can and will throw off group dynamics when you have a few individuals trying to squelch something as powerful as personal beliefs.

I think the mindset of the group you're rushing is important. We can talk about how good diversity is (and I won't argue with you) til we're blue in the face. The real issue is, will you be accepted?

You need to decide how important them knowing all about your religious choices is to you. Then you need to decide how you'll present that to them, be it in rush or later. I know in a place like where I'm from (Oklahoma) talking about your wiccan beliefs during rush probably wouldn't fly. Somewhere else where values and people are different, it might be better accepted.

It seems really unfair though. Most groups wouldn't mind having a Buddhist, Hindu or any other religion really. Wiccans to this day still have an unfair stigma attached to them.

Good luck.

Re: Religion a factor?
 

No comments/advice on your situation, but what is a "Christian" witch? I've never heard of this concept before, and it seems like an oxymoron. I'm not trying to start a flame war, but I am curious.

I certainly agree with ktsnake's post. Now let's look a little deeper into this situation as a whole.

WHY would you want to attach a label to yourself? Why must ANYone attach a label when so many other people are ready to do it for you? You are dealing with an issue...a term, that has so many various connotations that it MOST LIKELY will have a negative reaction. Why do you feel the need to do this?

I am not saying you will ever change your ideology of paganism-but you might. The LABEL of Pagan would be very difficult to shake even if you have 5 kids packed off to church every Sunday.
Your personal beliefs don't need to be "announced" they are exemplified in the way you choose to live your life. Thousands of people at the universities don't practice mainstay religion. Yet do they feel the NEED to let each and every person know they see life in a different way?

DO YOU PLAN TO STOP SAYING THINGS YOU DO NOT BELIEVE-
ANY REFERENCE TO THE BELIEF IN GOD, CHRIST? WILL YOU PARTICIPATE IN JEWISH OR CHRISTIAN RITUALS LIKE CHRISTMAS?
IF YOU PARTICIPATE...I WOULD LOOK AT THAT AS HYPOCRITICAL EVEN THOUGH IN YOUR EYES IT MIGHT BE NOTHING MORE THAN
A MEMORIZED SPEECH OR "FUN" JEWISH/CHRISTIAN TRADITION.

I am not saying you should compromise your beliefs ...you, as a Pagan are void of beliefs in a higher power-God...but then, aren't atheists? Or, have I misinterpreted your stance and the definition of Pagan? If I have...then I have proven my point. When I don't KNOW your definition, I will create my own-as will EVERYONE. Please, live your life the way you choose share your beliefs in non threatening situations, but DON'T grab some label and stick it on your forehead. You could NEVER take it back...it's far too juicy. This is an opinion from an old lady who has seen a lot of labels in her life!
Definitions of Pagan compliments of GOOGLE. Which are YOU?
noun-
One who is not a Christian, Muslim, or Jew, especially a worshiper of a polytheistic religion.
One who has no religion.
A non-Christian.
A hedonist.
A Neo-Pagan.
adj-
Not Christian, Muslim, or Jewish.
Professing no religion; heathen.
Neo-Pagan.

People sometimes have weird attitudes when it comes to religion - particularly if a non-"mainstream" belief system like Wicca is involved. It's not very mature, but it happens.

I've experienced a couple of religion issues...

When I joined my local sorority, I became the first and only non-Jewish member. My sisters were very welcoming, but I heard a few mutterings from others, and someone actually said to me outright, that I was only offered a bid so that I could be the token non-Jew. :mad: (The guy who said that turned out to be a total pr!ck...)

One year, our president decided to schedule a chapter meeting on Easter Sunday. It was in our bylaws that no mandatory event, including chapter, could be scheduled on Jewish holidays (including the Sabbath) or on the major holidays of any religion practiced by an active sister or new member. There were several Christian sisters at the time. I asked her to move the meeting, and she refused. Had a big argument with her in front of the entire chapter. She offered to make it later in the evening - I had to explain to her that Christian holidays, unlike Jewish ones, do not end at sunset. Finally she relented and moved the meeting to Monday.

There is a GLO at my school that, I am told, requires new members to swear an oath by Jesus Christ at initiation. This doesn't go over too well with non-Christians. :) But this is hearsay, as I obviously have not attended an initiation for this GLO.

Re: Re: Religion a factor?
 

Maybe I'm confused. When I read Lunarwolf's post, I assumed that her sister was a Christian who practiced witchcraft, which isn't an oxymoron. A person can practice witchcraft and be Christian because witchcraft itself is not a religion. However, when most people hear "witchcraft" they think of Wicca, which is a religion but in my opinion isn't true witchcraft--it's just some trendy modern interpretation of witchcraft. (If anyone who reads this is wiccan, I'm sorry--this is just my opinion, so don't mind me!) Witchcraft is much older than wicca.

Anyway...I'm wondering something, Lunarwolf. Did your chapter know that this girl was a witch before she joined, or was it something that just sort of came out as time went by?

I’m still waiting for the day when we get a pledge who can turn water into wine.

Re: Re: Religion a factor?
 

You know, I was thinking the same exact thing but I didnt say anything. Truth is ( not trying to sound like a zealous religious fanatic here) there is no such thing as a christian witch because witchcraft is not christian.

If you *had* to put a label on me, I guess you would say I'm agnostic. Somewhere between Christian and agnostic at least, if that makes any sense. When my sisters found this out (it was in NO way a secret) I know a few of them automatically shunned me and considered me athiest. (And even if I was so, what would it matter anyways?). Anyways, this really hurts my feelings, to this day. I know I would NEVER feel badly towards a sister, no matter what her religion, or lack thereof. Realize she's your sister and you shouldn't judge her by her religious or non-religious background.


editd to add--

Main Entry: [1]ag·nos·tic
Etymology: Greek agnOstos unknown, unknowable, from a- + gnOstos known, from gignOskein to know —more at KNOW
Date: 1869
: a person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (as God) is unknown and prob. unknowable; broadly : one who is not committed to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god

I'm actually very open minded and agnostic myself. So I wasn't shunning you for your non christian beliefs or looking down at you in any way. I was just stating that you could not be a christian witch. Thank you, and sorry for being an asshole about this but it is something I feel very strongly about.

Re: Re: Re: Religion a factor?
 

Not to hijack the thread, but I would disagree. If you are a Christian, you wouldn't "practice" witchcraft, because that would be seen as not of God. That's why I am confused as how someone could reconcile the two.

Typically, most people use pagan and neo-pagan fairly interchangeably to indicate someone who is a follower of any reconstructed ancient religious paths or some combination of them (i.e. an eclectic pagan). Usually pagans are polytheistic, not atheistic.

As for the Christian Witch idea, not everyone interprets the Bible the same way, and there are some people who feel that the Bible explicitly prohibits some forms of witchcraft (divination and any magic using spirits comes to mind), but not all. I don't have enough knowledge of the various translations of the Bible to agree or disagree.

I personally don't know how my chapter would react if I "came out" about this subject myself. I'd suspect that there'd be a lot less confusion on terms with your chapter members than with, say, alums, just because it was "trendy" to be knowledgeable about this sort of stuff and anyone who's read teen magazines has probably heard of Wicca. I'd start out small, by telling the sisters you're closest with and who you can give a really good, detailed explanation of your religious beliefs, and work your way out from there. Let people know that it's not a secret and be approachable and non-defensive about it. If most people know you and know what your beliefs are about, you won't run into as many problems and hopefully anyone who thinks you cast a spell on their shampoo won't have others believing them.

I'm extremely confused!!!! Not to be offensive to anyone or anything, but when I think of the word "witch," I think of the witches in the Wizard of Oz. However, I have NO CLUE what a "christian witch" or any other type of real-life witch is; I mean is it an actual religious sect? I feel so out of the loop because I have never, ever (except on jenny jones or something) heard of a person saying that they are a witch! I also thought that witchcraft was sort of forbidden in the bible, but mostly, right now, I am WAY confused!!!!

You might want to check out http://www.witchvox.com/basics/intro.html as they can give you a pretty comprehensive explanation. :)

Whoa....that's very different than anything I've ever encountered (maybe it's just because I've only been around Jews, Christians, Hindus, Agnostics, and Atheists in my life). I'm also confused about the use of the word pagan. If I heard that word, I would be a little bit weirded out. Why not use the word atheist? Isn't it the the same thing? I have plenty of friends that are that, but the word "pagan" just seems like something that is going to get alot of attention, and I kind of doubt the attention will be positive. But that's just my spin on it, so good luck with whatever you do, but my only advice is that you ought to be prepared for people's reactions

I'm so confused right now on if I believe in god or not, but I haven't told anyone in my sorority.

I figure I didn't join for religion, and since we don't have weekly bible studies and junk, I just don't even mention it. I guess it is like how many of the gay people feel/say on the real world. Whenever the houseguests find out that a person is gay and ask why they didn't tell - the person will usually say because when I first meet a person I don't ask if they are gay or straight. That might be a bad comparrison - but I just feel like bringing my religion/confussion up isn't something I want to do. Either way, I am still the same person. I am not lying to anyone about my religion, I am just not talking about it. I can talk to my family and such about it when the time approaches.

I think a reason why a lot of people who you are close to might come to shun you if they find out about you not beliving in god or what not is because stereotypical atheist usually have an ego problem. They think everyone is stupid for believing in something (what they think) don't exsist. I think for the most part, though, many people who don't believe in god see the idea of god as something comforting to many people. I know how much it comforts my mom to pray and such, so I am not going to sit here and tell her he doesn't exsist. That isn't my place.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Religion a factor?
 

As someone pointed out (WillowAnneLyra, maybe?), the Bible can be interpreted in different ways. Some Christians may say that anything having to do with witchcraft is sinful, and others may say it's not an issue. A person can be a witch and still believe in the teachings found in the Bible.

absolutuscchick, some will tell you that witchcraft is a religion (like Wicca) and others will say it's not, that it is independent of religion. I tend to agree with the latter, but if you ask 10 different people I guarantee you will get 10 different answers. :)

Back to the issue...if my chapter ever had any pagans/atheists/etc., they kept very quiet about it. My chapter had weekly Bible studies that you could sign up for, and many of the members were very passionate about their religious beliefs. I never left my cards out lying around because I was afraid they would draw comment, and I know that if someone had "come out" with different beliefs it probably wouldn't have gone over well with some. I think it's sad that a member of Lunarwolf's chapter left because of it, but I think this could be a good opportunity to educate people so it doesn't happen again.

She may mean "Christian Witch" as a referal to what some people saw Christianity to be in the beginning stages. . .which was filled with Pagan rituals. Either that or she believes in Jesus and practices Wicca, because most Chrisitans believe that acknowledging that Jesus is in your life and that he is the one and only God means you are a Christian. . .Just a thought from a PK. . .:)

:eek: Okay, I have a lot to clear up, apparently.

Justamom: I have no intention of hiding my ideology. Why should I? Especially with people I'm supposed to call sisters and should be tighter with than anyone? It's not a label, it's a path I chose five years ago. I call myself pagan because I believe in at least one god and one goddess, though I'm still working out for myself whether all gods exist independently or if they're all facets of the same thing. As for hypocrisy about Christmas and such...Yule has pagan roots, which were assimilated by the church later. That, and it's become such a commercialized hullabaloo of gift-giving that my atheist friend celebrates it as, "International Gift-giving Day." Speaking from overseas, that view of it is pretty accurate from this side of the ocean.

Achtung: I have no idea if they knew beforehand that she was a witch.

Kevlar: :D Having a pledge who could turn water into wine would be useful indeed!

Pika and Eclipse: The anti-witchcraft sentiment in the Bible mainly stems from a mistranslation in the King James version that says, "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live." Hebrew's a tricky language, with context mattering to the meaning of the words. Instead of "witch," a more accurate translation would have been "one who uses herbs (to poison others)." Somewhere along the way 'poisoner' got transliterated into 'sorceror' and then 'witch.'

And to all others: you have excellent suggestions and I appreciate the words of support and open-mindedness I'm seeing here.:cool: A religious tolerance workshop would probably be a good idea, though when to squeeze it in is the clincher now.

absolutuscchick,

From the little I have heard of Wicca/witchcraft et al, pagans and atheists are not the same. The terms have been used interchangeably in Christian history (especially when speaking of the Crusades & such) that it can be confusing.

I really have to agree with JAM on her points.

How were you going to present this to your sisters?

"Hi, I'm ___ and I practice Wicca."

I don't go up to people and announce I'm Catholic. My brothers for the most part wouldn't know I was Catholic, except when we pray in chapter, I do the sign of the cross.

Is it "hiding" it not to tell them? Don't take this the wrong way, but are you just trying to get attention and get a rise out of folks by declaring yourself different from them? What do you expect to gain from this?

Now, I'll conclude again by saying that it's a shame that society doesn't value the Wiccan religion as much as it does Hinduism, Buddhism, Mormonism, etc.. It's a damned shame and it's not fair. That doesn't really mean you should expect it not to. Live alongside your Christian (or otherwise) sisters in peace.

Again, good luck.

While it seems that many do not understand Wicca/paganism, many of you are trying to understand. Very cool :)

Lunarwolf: While I wouldn't suggest just blurting it out, mention your beliefs when everyone else is talking about theirs. Do not do anything religous-wise that makes you uncomfortable.

*Just as a side note, read this thread and substitute "Wiccan/pagan" for "homosexual." Draw your own conclusions.

I'm not particularly interested in getting a rise out of certain sisters -it would just be a pain.

What concerns me is both the close-mindedness so far exhibited and the fact that I can't say,"I won't be at __________ because of a ritual I'm going to," I can't leave my books out, probably have to hide my frickin' cards, and live the next three years of my life deprived of my own practices. I agree that life isn't fair, but if I don't try to educate just those around me, then it's not going to change for the better. Just because it's not fair now doesn't mean that the future is a total waste.;)

While I'm not an atheist, I'm really really worried about the possibility of bible studies in a sorority. That's probably one of my biggest concerns about joining a non-Jewish based sorority. I'm really super excited about rush, but a part of me is worried that the girls will hold bible study groups and be religious oriented and that I will feel really out of place and uncomftorable. Is this common practice everywhere? I really don't want to join any sorority that's going to be having such events, however, I am really interested in becoming a part of the sisterhood and lifelong involvement that NPC Sororities offer. For these reasons, I really wish ASU had AEPhi, DPhiE, SDT, etc...

Are there bible studies at the college you are going to? Do those make you feel uncomfortable? Way back when...some of my sorority sisters and I had bible studies at the house but it was just for those who were interested -- no one was coerced etc...I cannot imagine that has changed....

Lunarwolf - I agree with JAM and Ktsnake....they have good advice.

I don't know if there are bible studies or not yet...but I'm really hoping this isn't a big thing here. This will be my first semester at ASU (I just transferred from 'SC) though, so I guess I'll find out soon enough, and if it really bothered me, I could always depledge...

All of this talk of a sister not being accepted because of her religion surprises me. Not once has a sister's religion come in the way of daily activities. Our chapter is pretty reflective of its larger surroundings; not many people are observant in their religion, and it really hasn't impacted how she's treated in the house. The only time it became a problem was when our Catholic president did not want us to do anything with the on-campus women's center (which does a lot with domestic violence awareness--one of our altriusms) because they were a pro-choice leaning center. That could happen with anyone, really.

And since when is an atheist a pagan? :confused:

wow, i had no idea there were so many distinct practices.

i did go to a wiccan (i think) ritual when my friend moved into her new apt. it was actually really great. there were 4 of us who were friends and we talked about things that made us happy, etc. we brought some good energy to the new place!

ariesrising, you seriously rock!! Your "hijack" was exactly the info I was looking for to understand this thread better!!! I am now so much more interested in the whole witchcraft thing, before I think I was just totally weirded out by the idea of it!! I think it's so interesting how many different totally legitimate practices there are out there.

I don't think that there are any chapters who hold Bible studies at my school, but I know the ASA chapter at IIT has Bible studies listed on thier website (which I've always found odd, seeing as how DePaul is a Catholic university and IIT is a technical one). It's probibly something that's going to vary wildly from chapter to chapter. If you're not comfortable asking the chapters directly about it, talk to the recruitment councilors or panhellenic women -- they'd probibly have an idea of what kind of religious events chapters are holding.

And do keep in mind that just because a chapter holds Bible study meetings doesn't mean that they'd make you feel uncomfortable. It could be that they hold Bible studies because a couple of girls started getting together and it grew from there. The girls who have Bible study might be very into it for themselves, but not for others, or might be a minority in the group. Go in with an open mind and you might find that even a group that holds Bible studies still has all the sisterhood you want.

this is a very informative thread. i myself am openly atheist and my sisters know this and don't treat me any differently than my buddhist sister or the jewish sisters or the christian sisters. lunarwolf, you should just practice as you would normally and if people have questions answer them. don't try to hide it, but don't make a big deal out of it either. people fear the unknown and only by education can people overcome their fears.

on the note of bible studies, a bunch of the girls in our chapter get together to do one. whomever wants to take part does, and it's not forced upon anyone. there's also a panhellenic bible study that's open to any of the sorority women on campus who want to take part. i think there was one announcement about it at a chapter one time that if people wanted more info they could get it. that's my .02

Rachel, on a campus like ASU, I'm pretty sure there will be Bible studies. However, there's also a chapter of Hillel. It seems pretty big, so I'm sure that you won't be isolated religiously.

As far as Bible studies in chapter are concerned, I highly doubt that they will be the center of the organization, or that you will feel pressured to attend. Look at this as an opportunity to broaden horizons, both yours and your future sisters', by attending their religious events and inviting them to yours.

Lunarwolf, it's too bad that your sisters took such a narrow-minded approach to things. I mean, cursing their hairspray? That's just ridiculous!

I really don't think that you need to "come out" to your sisters about your personal spirituality, but since it seems like you're interested in sharing that part of yourself with them, maybe you might just leave your books and cards out once in a while. College is a time for people to search and question, and certainly they cannot fault you for exploring "alternate" paths.

That's such an awesome way to think about it!! :)