Controversy
 

I was just reading some articles regarding UGA's recruitment, specifically the sorority that "rejected" an African American potential pledge and had to go through racial sensitivity.

This got me thinking about something that I know has been brought up before but thought I could bring it up again.

Isn't the entire rush,invite only, voting process in some way prejudicial? I am not talking just about race.

If you really think about, and am honest, isn't it prejudical to vote no for a young woman who is poor, ugly, overweight, has zits, isn't smart, etc?

I'm just amazed that with how litigious our society has become, a young woman who was voted down on her favorite house hasn't sued. In the work force if a skinny beautiful woman got the job over a fat ugly woman, that second woman could potentially sue and WIN.

Thoughts?

I kind of thought the same thing when I heard that story. While I think it's wrong to deny someone because they are black, why does no one get in a big fuss about fat people being denied? People get rejected from sororities every year. If they all cried out prejudice of some form or fashion, we'd be in trouble. But I don't think that sororities/fraternities are considered "equal opportunity" organizations. Can anyone clarify that one?

So just to recap - I think it is WRONG to deny based on race, but there are lots of things people get denied on that are not cool, too and no one makes issues about it.

I believe most sororities must abide by anti-discrimination rules (except in the matter of gender, of course). Delta Delta Delta's anti-discrimination policy reads "The members of Delta Delta Delta, assembled in Convention for 50th time in the history of the organization, acknowledge and affirm that Delta Delta Delta, in its selection of members, does not discriminate on any basis other than gender, and expressly will not discriminate on the basis of ethnic heritage, national origin, personal appearance, personal beliefs, race, religion, or sexual orientation."

Does that mean that it doesn't happen? Of course not. I'd be willing to bet that at least one of those criteria has been used as justification for cutting during rush at every Tri Delta chapter around the nation.

So why don't more people sue? Well, first of all, I think the most common reason to be cut is the "personal appearance" reason, and most people have more pride than to file a lawsuit saying "Tri Delta cut me because I'm ugly!" :p (And who even knows how a lawsuit like that would hold up in court!) Furthermore, in most cases there's no proof. Melody Twilley (black rushee at Bama, which's NPC system is basically entirely white) can speculate all she wants that the reason she was cut from every sorority during formal rush is because she was black, but she has no proof for it. The sisters can just smile and say sweetly, "We just didn't find that she fit in with our chapter." I think that the UGA case is one of the few where there was some sort of "proof" that race was one of the deciding factors that this girl wasn't initiated.

I definately agree with your statement of voting, gnerally, being a prejudicial action, but there was an incident here at Purdue that relates to the Georgia situation. The problem came when a few members of this particular chapter stated that they did not want this girl in their house because she was of a differenct race. Then came the chaos. Two or three initiated member of this chapter deactivated that night called their National Office and told them about what had happened. They got in trouble, but are still on campus and im not sure what happened to the girls who made the racist comment. Voting someone out because you think shes ugly is more shallow and snooty that discriminatory, the way i see it. Its unfortunate that people still think like this.

I think that chapters can get away with discriminating against the "fat & ugly" because they can put it more delicately without specifics-"She doesn't project the image that we want on campus."

To be honest, I don't think that it happens very often though. That's just my opinion and maybe I'm naive. *shrugs*

I think that the problem still exist. But I think it relates to the schools, and not so much the organizations.

The year the incident at Georgia took place, there was only one african-american woman rushing. Out of 1000 PNMs. :eek: I am not surprised that conversations ensued regarding that fact. And the sorority that did not invite her back was not the only one.

Several articles noted that she was unhappy and about to drop out of rush. Surely not because of one sorority. What happens at Georgia, happens other places I am sure. Why should a non-caucasian woman feel so uncomfortable going through the process?? I think these schools should work harder on ways to encourage diversity. If I were 1 out of 1000 I would have wanted to quit too!

Re: Controversy
 

I forgot to reply to this. I agree. I don't see it changing. It is the same thing that kids go through in high school. At some campuses. My campus did not have a problem overlooking zits, weight, etc. But I have visited campuses where the women could not have been more perfect in some groups. Not that they weren't nice. But where did all the others go?

I think it is sad. But we are dealing with impressionable young women. I know that my 19 year old cousins spend a great deal of time and effort on the impressions they make. I would think they would be the same when voting. They would want someone who put out as much effort as they do.

It is a situation that I don't think will ever change.

Re: Controversy
 

I think the only way that you would overcome this is if the PNMs were blindfolded throughout rush and so were the sorority members. Crazy sounding, I realize, but true.

Re: Controversy
 

i think so...luckily, i really never saw this with my chapter. there were people we didn't offer bids to, but the reasons really had nothing to do with their physical apperance. one instance i remember clearly was a PNM had threatened one of the sisters the year before. who wants a member who is going around physically threatening others???

as i am learning more and more about the large sec school rushes, i think that i would never have gotten a bid anywhere. coming out of hs, i had over a 4.0 gpa, was in a zillion things, held 2 jobs, weighed 120lbs, etc., but i really think that i wouldn't have been offered a bid. when jam and carnation talk about all of these wonderful women who go through rush and end up bidless, i know that would be me. what happens to these women? especially if they are legacies and their mothers/ sisters are very involved...they must feel left out... do they eventually look to alum initiation?

I totally plead ignorant on this one, but wanted to give someone a glimpse of what being in a greek organization at a southern school can do to you! :) I was an AOII at Georgia Southern University my freshman year. As far as I can remember, there were no african-american girls going through rush, though there were some of other ethnicities. However, the african-american sororities at GSU are pretty big, so I doubt any of them felt compelled to go through rush in the historically white sororities.

Then I transferred to Oglethorpe University, a small D3 liberal arts school. One of my first days on campus I went to a meeting about cheerleading because I was thinking about trying out. Well, at the meeting there were two african-american girls and I noticed they had Chi O lavaliers on. I can honestly say that my first reaction was shock because there were no african-american girls in any of the historically white sororities at GSU. I later learned that 2 of the 3 sororities at OU had a significant african-american membership (in part because there are no historically african-american greek orgs at OU). Now I no longer consider it anything out of the norm, but gosh was it a shock at first! :)

You were an AOII? You are an AOII silly! :)

On my campus it's totally different that it is at schools like UGA, Ole Miss, etc...Our chapter, as well as others are quite diverse, but that is the nature of my university in general. Many women from different ethnic backgrounds join in the recruitment process and become members of the chapters at CSULB.

Re: Controversy
 

I believe that because sororities and fraternities are private organizations, they can choose to include who they want to include, for whatever reasons.

Look at the controversy over women members at Augusta--Augusta National has the legal right to limit its membership to men. Martha Burke was hoping to sway public opinion and put pressure on the corporations who's executives are members. She didn't go to court to sue, because she wouldn't get very far. (She did go to court over the location of her protest, however.)

You're right, I AM an AOII! :) I just meant I was an AOII at Georgia Southern, people are always confused because I did most of college at Oglethorpe Univ and there's no AOII there.

My chapter of AOII was very diverse as well. Actually, I think we were the most diverse on our campus, we just didn't have any african-americans. It was south Georgia, not a whole lot of diversty down there, period! :) We had this beautiful girl though who was an older sister when I was a pledge and I believe she was from Panama (not Panama City either!) :) Anyhow, I thought she was simply gorgeous. Glad to hear AOII is diverse in other places as well!

Glad this is being discussed!

After reading those articles on the UGA thread...I must sadly say I was NOT surprised http://www.spacespider.net/emo/shakehead.gif

I did grow up on the East Coast (in the South) and as far as rush, it is definitely more diverse in the West. I see more ethnicity and diversity in GLOs out here (on the West Coast) than in the South.

(I have family and friends in both NPCs and NPHCs)

I know someone who was interested in rushing an NPC (a few years back). During freshman orientation (in a Southern School), she stopped by the NPC table. She was told (and I quote her) "the Greek system is segregated, that's the way it is. If you want to be a member of a GLO, then join a black one". End of subject. http://www.spacespider.net/emo/jawdrop.gif (She is biracial). WTF?

If it is said, "the reason minority women are not in our GLOs is because they don't sign up for rush". I wonder why?????
Unfortunately in some schools they are not exactly made to feel welcome!

Kinda like "what the hell is she doing here?" And IF they are lucky they will make it past the first round. DAMN lucky if they make it past round 2!

It cuts both ways though...I can guess the same thing would happen if a White or Asian person wanted to join an NPHC...the "what is their motive? what the hell are they doing?"

Input? Thoughts? Let's TAWK amongst ourselves! :D

I definately agree! All the articles mentioned that the woman dropped out of rush after a few days because she felt uncomfortable.

The TIME article also mentioned how minority women also ended up dropping out of their chapters because they didn't feel comfortable and because of certain things that had happened within their chapter that had racial tones.

From the TIME article: http://www.time.com/time/education/a...,59389,00.html

Like Kristin AGD mentioned, I think the issue has to do more with individual school's chapters and not so much the overall organization.

I'm almost certain all sororities & fraternities have some kind of anti-discriminatory clauses, but some chapters might discriminate more so than others. Like for example the XY chapter of ABC might be more picky about grades, looks, or whatever more so than the CD chapter of ABC is. And it is probably because the XY chapter is probably at a more cut-throat school than CD is.

(sorry if all the alphabets are confusing, I'm just trying to make an example :) )

I SO agree with you here! And you did your examples well! Because I have seen NPC chapters that are diverse in race and religion

Let's keep talking y'all! (I might be on the West Coast but you can't take the South outta me!) :D

This is very important. If anything, each PNM must be shown the same courtesy and respect during the process. I can only begin to imagine what my recruitment experience would have been like at one of these schools...:( I know I've mentioned this in another post, but I often wonder what it would be like if I could go through a Recruitment at one of those schools, just to see how differently I would be treated...I would like to hope that I would have the same courtesy and respect, but I'm realistic...

It's not simply a matter of "an organization can select whom they want," which is true...but they cannot use race as a reason for rejection, especially when they have explicit antidiscriminatory clauses for race and religion--which is what is wrong about the system. Let's not make excuses for ignorant people.

JAM's wisdom
 

I read this in the thread What makes someone worthy of your letters?, I found some of justamom's wisdom that I think would also be appropriate here:

personally, I think justamom's wisdom would be appreciated in EVERY thread. Not just those that "apply."

I completely agree aabby757 :)

Her comment that I reposted from the other thread seemed to suit the discussion of this thread also, so I thought I would add it here :)

As a UGA student, I've heard from older members of my chapter that there was more the situation than just the color of the girl's skin. Many, many pnm's are released from our recruitment. It's VERY competitive. Each chapter has the right to choose members on the basis of its own criteria. Also, it's well known that if a white girl tried to join a NPHC group here, she would NEVER be admitted. Seems like a double standard if no one writes articles in TIME about that situation.

Actually, it was mentioned before. In a December 2000 issue of Ebony magazine, there was an article about Whites in NPHC groups. Great article...wish I kept the issue!

You say you're "sure" race didn't play a role in the sorority's decision, but yet you are also sure that the HBGLO's at Auburn wouldn't have accepted you and not be called racist?


Why doesn't that make sense to me?

In all honesty, the only people who will ever know if race did play a role in the sorority's decision will be the women in the room when they were discussing the pnm... so I don't know how you can be so "sure". In the articles about the UGA incident, all of them stated that a woman in that particular sorority was upset when she heard all the remarks her sister was saying. I highly doubt someone would just make something up like that for fun.

... but that's just my opinion :)

I'm sorry, but what are you basing that on. . .I'm guessing it's something that you heard of because there are many non-African American women in NPHC sororities. I know this because some of them are my family.

So true. . .

Most of the articles I have read said that the girl disaffiliated completely. I have to wonder why she was the only one. There are a lot of girls in those chapters at UGA. It makes me wonder if the conversation wasn't misinterpreted by this girl. The articles note that it was clear that the pnm was about to quit the rush process. And to say that their was no conversation about the one african-american out of 1000 girls would be ignorant. I am sure their was. But as Texas*Princess pointed out, only the women in that room know exactly what was said that day.

Not at all schools - they do things differently down south.

The TIME article mentioned how other minority women of that sorority ended up leaving the chapter for other inicidents that happened that had racial tones:

http://www.time.com/time/education/a...,59389,00.html

Also, in many of the articles about Melody Twilley (the girl who wanted to "integrate" NPC sororities at Bama), there were mentions of a biracial girl who had rushed earlier ("passing" for white the entire time) and she said that girls in her house used the n-word all the time and made some disparaging comments towards blacks. No matter how competitive rush at UGA and Bama is, you've got to assume that race played some sort of role at some if not all of the sororities, especially when articles about these sororities include quotes from members like "No fraternity would mix with us if we had a black girl!" Any house who doesn't chastise a sister for using the n-word has some issues with race, period.

I think the issue of black women not feeling comfortable going through NPC rush is a much more common one -- I know that is an issue here. I remember seeing ONE black woman throughout all of my rush. We have quite a few girls of Asian descent in the NPC sororities, but almost no Hispanics or African-Americans. I think part of this is just playing off the campus atmosphere -- it is very divided racially. I'm not sure how we can encourage more Latinas and black women to rush when the reason they aren't has just as much to do with the way campus is than the way the sororities are.

Since most of us recognize that something is wrong the next step is to change what was done in the past. Like if you haven't seen any minorities at rush or very little, take the time and think about why. Maybe they aren't being reached.

It will also take more than encouragment. The first thing some minorities will see is the lack of any color besides white, so they are going to feel uncomfortable. And there is always the fear of being hurt. I know I felt that way when I thought about going NPC during my sophmore year. But. . .

THANK GOD I found TNX!!!! I'm lucky. . .I found my place at college, not what was expected of me as a black woman, but MY place. :D

There are exceptions to everything. I have known white members of NPHC groups at LSU.

OK, this is definitely another topic for another day.

aopirose's biggest pet peeve - ("passing" for white) - I really, really, really hate this phrase and the context that it implies. If a person is of mixed race (for example: caucasian and african-american) and is on the fairer end of the spectrum, what are they supposed to say, "Hi, my name is Maggie and although I look like a "full-blooded" white person with my straight natural blonde hair and blue eyes, my great-grandmother is black. What do you all do for philanthropy projects?"

ETA: I am going out of town and I won't be back until next Tuesday.

Oh so right. . . .

I agree with you to some extent and that's why I put the phrase in quotes (because I'm not sure if her intent was to "pass" or not). Nevertheless, from the articles I read, it sounded like her house didn't know she was biracial until the Melody Twilley controversy (a year after she rushed) and that is plenty of time for her house to learn that she was biracial . . . but they never did. Clearly that means that they never met her parents, that she never spoke of her background (there are plenty of chances for it to come up -- a sister says, "Oh, you're so tan!" when in reality you're half black, you'd probably mention that to her, right?), she never corrected them on their use of the n-word (I can't imagine having a black parent or grandparent, being considered black by some people, and still being okay with the fact that some of my sisters were calling people n*****s in front of me). All of that leads me to believe that she was trying to hide that part of her for at least a little while, or at least in front of some of her sisters.

I can see not mentioning your heritage during rush if it doesn't come up, but to not mention it during an entire YEAR sounds quite a bit more sketchy to me.

Links to articles and threads about the UGA incident. Not being biased but there was more to it then just race (even though yes, a few girls (not the entire house) were concerned about accepting a black member). I believe we have more threads about it too, but I couldnt find those.


Thread One

Thread Two

Tme Article

Maybe someone can confirm or refute this. I have been told that there are 2 NPC sororities at LSU who have a sister that is black.
I did not hear if the young ladies are from a mixed marriage or not.

aopirose says there have been whites in the NPHC groups.

Maybe LSU is becoming more progressive...IF this is true.
edited here-I am refering to MY first statement, NOT what aopirose said. I am certain she would know.

Please, no one ask me WHICH sororities-I could not possibly give out information based on OTHER information that could be incorrect.

In the year 2525.... (remember that song....)

People will still be dissecting what happened at UGA in 2000.

"...kind of wonderin' if man will still be alive!" :D

If I were a gambler, I'd bet with you!

Yeah, the issue is kind of exhausted now. . . oh well:)