What makes someone "worthy" of your letters?
 

Originally posted by 'Carnation' in the Rush thread....

"(hijack)--There are plenty of sleazy women I would not want to wear the letters "Pi Beta Phi". Likewise women who'll destroy the chapter gradepoints because they refuse to study. One thing about being around a few years--you learn that positive peer pressure at college age rarely works but you do see a lot of students being dragged down by negative peer pressure from whatever source. Creeds and symphonies notwithstanding, a woman should be worthy of wearing our letters and we shouldn't feel the need to be social workers and drag someone out of the gutter. Thank you!
(unhijack) "

My reply (which was non-contentious) was deleted.... but, I'd still like to know what others think.

I'm glad you reposted this even though it did get deleted because I want to know what other people think.

On one hand, it bothers me that sororities are so image-conscious. When I'm deciding who to be friends with, I don't give a damn if they're sleeping with half the campus (unless it's endangering their health), what their grades are or what they look like. What I care about is that they're fun to be around, easy to talk to and that I can depend on them when I need them. I wish this is what sororities could be about. Unfortunately the formal rush process doesn't allow for that. We had a speaker recently that told us that in all likelihood, the formal rush process will come crashing down in the next ten to twenty years, to be replaced with a more COB-oriented process. COB allows you to go after the girls you already know and love instead of forcing you to choose from whatever group of girls shows up for formal rush.

On the other hand, sororities claim to represent the cream of the crop of college women, and for that to be true we do have to have some sort of standard for membership. But I don't think that positive peer pressure doesn't work. I have a sister who had a 2.3 before she pledged, and now because of the study hours and the expectations she knows she's supposed to live up to, she got a 3.2 last semester. Most of my sisters' GPAs went up after they joined the sorority. Why? At least in part because of the "positive peer pressure."

I know a girl who, in middle school, was into drugs and was generally looked at as kind of "trashy." In high school she turned herself around. She graduated with a 4.0, had big roles in a couple of school plays, did two varsity sports and one JV, and was involved in several other extracurricular activities. She no longer did drugs and was well-liked. Many people see college as a chance to reinvent themselves in a similar way, and I think it's unfortunate that many girls who may have been in the process of turning over a new leaf are cut from a sorority simply because their "reputation" proceeds them (a girl from the sorority went to the same high school, etc.).

So long as a brother respects what the organization stands for and tries to live by it, he's worthy of our letters.

Well said, ktsnake.
 

GLO's were originally created to better the lives of their members through debate, lecture, and the creeds we all try so hard to live up to. Now, while we've come a little ways from that (I can't imagine Thomas Jefferson and his buddies at Homecoming or Greek Week) we still have a responsibility to be that "positive peer pressure." We're all brothers and sisters. It's a closer bond than mere friendship or hallmates. If fraternities and sororities can't act as uplifting or inspiring vessels for change in a person's life, then what are we here for? I mean, parties, sure, but what are we REALLY here for? :p

It doesn't matter what a person was before. What matters is who they are when they put on that jersey, and what we can do to help them get there. I mean, if we gave them a bid in the first place, doesn't that mean we saw something in them worthy of our letters? I think GLO's should stand by that, not the "he said-she said" that follows people from high school.

Thank you, here's my soapbox back. :D

Well said, sugar and spice!

http://216.40.249.192/s/otn/wink/smily012.gif

Re: What makes someone "worthy" of your letters?
 

What was your reply? A nicer version if the first one got deleted for being inappropriate.

Re: Re: What makes someone "worthy" of your letters?
 

If I remember correctly, all she posted was the DZ creed and pointed out how it contradicted what the original poster said. It wasn't inappropriate at all, unless I missed something.

I can honestly say, I've had friends, CLOSE friends, from all walks of life. As an example, when I was in a band our drummer was a walkng "Hell's Angel" type..but I loved him for his kindness. One close friend was "familiar' with the entire baseball team, yet I trusted her to the ends of the earth. My PERSONAL opinion is that a true gentleman or lady can make any human being feel comfortable and find some common ground and LEARN. You take a part of them with you. You give a part of yourself back to them. This is how we grow as individuals.

If I could pick who woud wear my letters, it would reflect our AXO symphony. We might lose some members... lol
In truth, I was born an AXO for I held this philosophy long before
I knew it existed.

"To see beauty even in the common things of life, to shed the light of love, and friendship round me; to keep my life in tune with the world that I shall make no discords in the harmony of life; to strike on the lyre of the universe only the notes of happiness, of joy, of peace; to appreciate every little service rendered; to see and appreciate all that is noble in another, be her badge what it may; and to let my lyre send forth the chords of love, unselfishness sincerity. This is to be my symphony."

While some people may use college as a new beginning, during Recruitment a person's past (if someone knows them that well) is frequently the only way to determine what type of organizational contributor that person will be. While he/she may completely turn themselves around and be a different person entirely, they very well may not. I know when I'm referring to my letters, I don't want someone out there with an awful reputation continuing to be involved with awful things and representing me at the same time.

We all know people are looking for the smallest thing to peg greeks on, so all it takes is one bad behaving member to spoil an entire group's reputation. And if someone wants to be an individual then be an independent, because when joining a sorority, there are responsibilities that go along with it, such as behaving in a manner which demands respect for yourself and all of your brothers/sisters.

Having said that, and probably dropping a few jaws along the way, I feel like someone worthy of Phi Mu letters has to have respect for themselves, and in turn others, and must always try to represent themselves in the best light. I think if you do this, then everything else will fall into place. I do not, however, feel that someone needs to "earn" their letters because if we chose you, then you earned 'em, but I do feel they have a huge responsibility in reflecting MY fraternity well at all times and never waivering on their pledge to My fraternity. But members also have to keep this in mind when choosing their members, and if they don't feel a PNM could hold up to their end of the bargain, then perhaps this isn't the chapter for them.

I've started veering from what my original thought was, so I'll stop now. But I'll be back ;)

Tara
i have a Phi Mu castle...

My reply was *something* to the extent of:


I believe in and stand by the Creed of Delta Zeta, and others who do so as well.


"To the world,
I promise temperance and insight and courage,
To crusade for justice,
To seek the truth and defend it always;

To those whom my life may touch
in slight measure,
May I give graciously
of what is mine;

To my friends,
Understanding and appreciation;

To those closer ones,
Love that is ever steadfast;

To my mind,

Growth;

To myself,
Faith
That I may walk truly
In the light of the Flame."

Dorothy M. Williams
Alpha Zeta Chapter

Notice that it says: "That *I* may walk truly..." (emphasis added) In the end this is a *personal* journey through which we can all benefit from the company of others who are onthe same path.

--(There, I think that's pretty close to what I posted last night)
Thanks, for keeping this thread alive, guys. This is something very close to my heart.

About 2 years ago, we had a thread on this--it got long and there were a lot of arguments on it. Of course, everyone had differing opinions and nothing was settled. What was noteworthy was that many people posted examples of times that Greeks had cut some rushees some slack and admitted them, hoping they'd change.

Hardly any of them did. Almost every situation resulted in the new member continuing the behavior that made her undesirable in the first place, whether it was drugs or extremely weird habits or whatever. It would end up with the GLO being mortified by the NM's behavior and people referring to their org as "the one with the girl who ____" and even hurting them in rush. Sometimes these NMs would come in and split chapters with their behavior.

I have been a professor for almost 30 years and like I said earlier, have rarely seen students with undesirable behavior change while in college. Later changes maybe, but few while in college. Like I also said, GLOs aren't able or even supposed to be social workers.

I have no problem with living my creed or symphony. However, this does not extend to getting my letters onto someone with strange behavior....and I have only written 2 "no" recs in 30 years but those women would've messed up my chapter, as they did the chapters they ended up pledging--and being kicked out of.

I'm trying to think of ways to word what I think without offending anyone. I know many people (James!) disagree with my point of view when it comes to this topic. When I see a DZ (whether it be in person, on the internet, whatever) acting trashy, I'm embarrassed that we wear the same letters. Like AggieDZ, I want to have sisters that exemplify our creed. Sleeping with half of campus, drinking themselves into a sloppy stupor at fraternity parties, etc. is embarrassing and I don't want to be associated with that and I don't want my letters known for that. I want my sorority and my chapter to be here 20 or 30 years from now. If we accept women of poor standards (doesn't care about grades, attendance or the image she sets forth), then we won't be here. I think that goes for any chapter of any sorority. Like someone else said, sororities are supposed to be the cream of the crop of college women.

Obviously not every chapter is going to be looking for the same type of girl, nor is every sister within a given chapter going to be looking for the same type of this girl. There are chapters who have taken many "risky" girls and turned them into successes. There are chapters who have taken risky girls who have torn the chapter apart. The chapters don't know which risks to take should probably stick to the less risky girls. ;)

But speaking for me, I'd rather have a great sister than someone who looks good on paper but isn't there for me.

As like many have said, I'm proud of KDs who try to live as "honorable, beautiful, & highest" people. Every KD probably has a different interpretation of what this means to her. I know that my version is at odds with many other peoples, including some KDs!

This brings up why deferred recruitment can be a positive thing. A girl's reputation in the sorority isn't entirely based on what she did in high school; there is a whole semester of college to see her behavior. I find it amusing that sororities will fight over a girl because she's pretty & popular with the guys, yet behaves in a very unladylike manner when drinking in public. These same sororities will pass over the 4.0 student with a sweet personality because she isn't at the fraternity houses every weekend & wouldn't grace the cover of Cosmo.

*stepping off my soapbox*

I can honestly say that the Kappa Deltas I have met through GC make me so proud to call them my sisters. Also, while I may not know the creed of all of the sororities, I would place money on the fact that they live up to their sororities ideals in all they do.

AMEN AMEN AMEN....

We had a sister like that...and I was the first to say let's terminate her. Good grades, activities, popular on campus, morally straight...but she was never there for her little or big. She was never there for the duties of her office. She was never there just to hang out and have fun. Some people were like "but she is such a good image for us." I said "who cares? I want sisters, not images." After the chapter terminated her, she fought it, and apparently national overturned it - because she looked soooooo good on paper. I'll be damned, though, if I will ever again call her my sister.

There's a BIG BIG BIG difference between a girl who between high school and college grows out of an image that probably hasn't been true since the 7th grade - and a girl who is mentally instable or needs help beyond what the most loving sorority can give her. Some of the high school "sluts" or "geeks" or "dummies" or "troublemakers" may not have wanted to continue in that image, but if the only time you receive attention is when you conform to that image, you sometimes stay in it. Also, if your friends REALLY are like that, you may get pegged as that whether it's true or not. You might get pegged as a pothead because you hang out with the potheads, even if you never touch the stuff, but if they're the nicest people at your school, why dump them because of an image?

I remember right before I started college there was a (of all things) deodorant ad in magazines about going off to college that said at the end "today you get a fresh slate. Make the most of it." I felt so much better when I read that because I realized I wasn't going to be stuck in the image I got pinned with when I was 12.

Well this is going off on a tangent...but all I can say is, if the people that tormented you in HS are all going to Podunk U, tear up your application. ;)

All of the following is IMHO-

But, the point IS, if we all followed our Creed, we WOULDN'T have to worry about these problems. This is a living evolving condition that seems to be gaining strength. It's because some chapters, in their quest to become a "top" house, start looking at the wrong "qualities" of an individual. To put it bluntly, they buy into the wrappings of the package without knowing what's inside. It's like playing "grab bag". Recruitment, being so short, fast and furious, tends to result in GLOs grabbing the flashier box.

When the chapters start placing more emphasis on looks, OTHER chapters have to as well. I'm not saying that appearances aren't important-like it or not they are-but it has evolved to the point where within the cut sessions phrases like, "She was sooo popular in HS" (Did anyone think to ask WHY???) or "Do you know who her parents are?" becomes THE focus. Once you have this shift occur, it is almost impossible to return to the basic values the sorority was founded on. Like attracts like. So, if your chapter starts pledging girls who are only looking to get married-hooked up-party-or a 4 year vacation on Daddy's checkbook it COULD become the norm for your chapter. How can you turn THAT around? Go back to your creed. Set your standards and stick to them. You will run the risk of losing that
"pretigious" :rolleyes: position of the "hottest" girls on campus. Then again, I am a great believer in good virtue. Maybe more than anything, it boils down to the image of the PNMs as to what THEY think is acceptable behavior. I really think a chapter needs to be very careful in who they pledge, return to their Creed raise THAT bar. BUT, unless EVERYONE did it at the same time, I doubt it would work.

Maybe COB WILL be the way to go in the future. (I would credit this thought, but I can't remember who said it.)

A final thought-IMO...it all boils down to SEX, SEX, SEX! Sex sells!:D :p

When I first read the original post that started this thread, all I could think was ":eek:"

Justamom noted [on the first page of this thread] that if she could hand-pick who could wear her letters based on their symphony alone, they might lose some members... reasonably speaking, I think every GLO whether it be NPC, IFC, NPHC, multi-cultural, locals or whatever, the situation would probably be the same... not everyone lives up to their creeds/symphonies like our founders had hoped.

Justamom was also hit it right on the nail when she said that with the short rush process that GLO's tend to "result in GLO's grabbing the flashier box". I think her explanation about that made perfect sense too.

Me personally, I feel the same as sugar and spice who said I'd rather have a sister who was there for me and the chapter than someone who has awesome grades, looks like Barbie, and has a dad who owns a company and an island off the coast, that doesn't do anything.

Alpha Delta Pi's open motto is "We Live For Each Other", and like part of our Creed says:

"I BELIEVE that our motto “We Live For Each Other,” expresses the true spirit of fraternity; and that by living this motto my life will be enriched by true friendships and by unselfish service to mankind. "

I thought FuzzieAlum said in the other thread that it didn't matter if we had a pubic trim. Sorry, I couldn't resist.

:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:
OMG, this is getting OFF THE HOOK! LOL

AAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

That's the funniest thing I've heard all day.

I just got in trouble at work for laughing too loud.

haha...flashy box

DZHBrown and MoxieGirl, you have said it for me! For my sorority, I want women who can live our symphony...I don't want women who embarrass us in public or divide us in private.

Now some sororities, especially since formal rush is so fast and furious might aim for the women who look great or come from rich families or were the most popular in high school. These might well be the women who embarrass us in public or divide us in private! Sororities need to aim for those who fit our creeds--who are stellar in character and who will be true friends.

I'm fairly certain that we've all agreed that we want women who live lives based on and striving for the ideals and values of our particular organizations. Hooray for agreement! I don't think anyone has said that they *want* those who would harm us, or our organization. I just hope that we also remember to focus on living our ideals and values OURSELVES.

Something we always used as a 'reminder' to the actives during Recruitment (and this goes especially/specifically for Seniors) was that each woman should aim to recruit someone to 'take her place'. For me, I wouldn't (and didn't) want someone who just "fit" my Creed (or MY idea of it)---- I chose women who WERE the Creed.

Our president tells me that we really look for girls with potential to bring them out of their shell and help them grow or girls who are really energetic and have a lot of spunk.

On top of it all, FGP allows members to wear their letters only after they've become active which I think is very special. You literally earn your letters. Another special thing about it is your Big gives you your first set of letters. It's a very emotional time because it's right after new members cross over. :D

To be a part of my organization, you should be a leader. You should be involved in campus activities, or volunteering or both. In addition, you should have a passionate interest in the issues affecting the Black community worldwide. You also have to have a 2.5 GPA by national standards.

A man should first be a man and reflect the proper qualities of manhood before trying to join my organization. In my humble opinion.

I believe what carnation is talking about goes along with pi beta phi's new leading with values program.

This is a new four part member development program that pi phi has created. The program this year was "living our values".. it gave us a chance to talk about the values of our Fraternity, chapter, and our own to make sure that we were all striving for the same ideals. We also talked about what your membership in Pi Beta Phi means .. like what is expected of you as member.

It talked about basically how you should expect members to live for the ideals of pi beta phi, and how your actions no longer just reflect on yourself but your chapter, pi beta phi, and other greeks.

To make a long story short.. I hope that this is making sense in that this program reaffirmed my belief that a person should live up to values of your organization, fufill your membership obligation, and likewise.. memberships shouldnt be handed out and its not too much to ask either.

Anyone else in Pi Phi.. If I get this wrong in some way correct me.. but I believe that this program was trying to get at.

I completely understand about wanting sisters that are there for you and don't just look good on paper... HOWEVER.. there is the reverse of that... sisters that are GREAT friends.. but aren't that good to the chapter as a whole. This is the sister that is soo great and fun to hang out with... but doesn't pay her dues.. will take your 3 am phone call when you need to talk... but didn't send in that report to national on time. This causes problems as well....
I really don't know what the answer is because you definitely want the best of both worlds when looking for members... HOWEVER you can't tell if that woman who looks great on paper (pays her dues.. 4.0, is president of this activity and that AND feeds the homeless in her "spare time" etc...) and seems friendly and sweet when you talk to her for a total of 4 hours (maybe) by the end of rush week is REALLY going to be there for you...
You also can't tell if that girl you really connect with that is SUPER nice and loyal and just gives a really friendly vibe is going to flake out on the more "businessy" responsibilities of belonging to the chapter.

embarassing behavior
 

Hmm... all very interesting. I guess all of this depends on what you see as an exemplarly person. Granted, we have creeds and ideals, morals and standards, but I venture to say that we could only do all that our creeds require on the best of days.
What is important to me in my sisters and friends (because in reality this has a greater impact on us personally than the GLO's we are in), is that they have the best of intent and try to the best of their ability to follow it. Yeah, people make mistakes. By the time you've hit 20 everyone has done something stupid that they'd rather not tell you. I know I have. Does that make me a bad member? I dont' think so. The important thing is to learn and grow, and I hope that is the ultimate goal of our sisters and brothers.
Rush is a crazy process, and you don't always end up with people that turn out right. However, I believe that there is a very wide range of people that will benefit from and enjoy fraternity membership, depite mistakes they have made, or things they have not considered.

LOL. i screamed when i read this

There are two things to that come to my mind when asking what makes someone worthy of my letters. What it means to be a Beta, and what it means to be a member of Alpha Tau in Beta Theta Pi. This is the same for every chapter, and it is 100% that you woulnd't fit in at the majority of your organizations chapters, but your chapter is your home and so it's fair to have chapter requirements.

For Beta Theta Pi's General Fraternity requirements I would say that Loyalty is the premium virtue of a member. "Unfaltering Fidelity" is a pharse on the back of our membership cards. I would also stress academic success, ambition, and dedication to the 3 Great Principles and the Objects of Beta Theta Pi. Finally, I think this quote sums it up nicely as to the sentiment of a Beta about his fraternity:"Again, the Beta is distinguishable and distinguished from all other kinds of fraternity men whatsoever by just a little warmer and just a little stronger, just a little tenderer and more enduring fraternity feeling than any of them can attain to. For it was always so. I do not in the least know how it happened, nor why it persisted after it happened, but a long time ago there came into Beta Theta Pi a fraternity spirit that was, and is, and apparently will continue to be, unique. We know it, who are inside, and they see and record it who are outside the Beta pale. Whether young or old, in college or out, from the small school or the great university, we are conscious of a heritage of genuine fraternalism that has not been vouch safed in like measure -- I say it deliberately -- to any other of the great college fraternities. And we cannot doubt that in this, as in other respects, our 'future will copy fair our past, and that in the world of fifty years from now, as in that of years ago,

. . . as in that that lies around us today —
the first mark of a Beta will be his Beta Spirit."
— Willis O. Robb, Ohio Wesleyan 1879

As for Alpha Tau: One of the things we stress in rush is that "once a Beta, Always a Beta, Everywhere a Beta." And we look at it like this, that the guys we sign, have always been Beta's in their actions adn goals, just never called Betas by name. In other words we look to find untapped Betas and refine them into productive members, not take guys and make them Betas. For our chapter that means leadership, involvement, being social, but having your priorities set. We look for the guys who (if they party) can work their asses off Sunday night through Wednesday night, and then Thursday, Friday and Saturday, can let loose and have a good time. Do I think that it takes more to be an Alpha Tau, than just a Beta? Yeah, but for a Beta cahpter that throws the best parties on a campus, I probably wouldn't be a good fit, and so you might say that for them it takes more to be a XY than a normal Beta.

Betarulz - I think that is an awesome saying/motto/whatever. I especially like the "everywhere a Beta" part....
Thanks for sharing!