Law School
 

I have a couple questions for all of you law students out there, and I know there are quite a few of you!

I'm taking an LSAT prep course right now, and plan to take the test in October. I have mainly been looking at schools in Florida, but am starting to think that I should broaden my search to other states. Did any of you make a huge move when you started law school? I've moved many times in my life, but have always been with my family. I would love to go to school in Washington DC, but think that it's a huge change to make while starting law school.

As far as financial aid goes, were you able to get scholarships/loans to cover your expenses? My college fun is basically spent, so I plan on applying for financial aid...but I'm worried about not having enough. Did you have time for a part time job while attending school?

Thanks to everyone who answers my questions! I was just looking online all day at different school's websites, and it got me thinking about a lot of things. Attending law school is something I am very serious about, and I just wanted to hear some advice from people who have been in my shoes!

~Shae

I'm looking at law schools too. I won't be graduating until next year though. I'm starting to go through LSAT books, and I'm going to take a Kaplan class in the spring. Where are you looking to apply? I'll probably stay in state (UGA or Emory).

Going out of state can depend on a lot of things. It'll cost more if you dont have a residency, for starters. And as far as financial aid goes, I wouldn't worry myself with that just yet. Wait until after you get back your LSAT scores, you could do well enough to get a full ride. I have 4 friends who all got full rides to UF law. I'd also suggest that you look at each school and try to find out what they're known for more less. For example, Stetson down by where you are is known more less as a school where litigators like to go. Litigation is not my thing and so I wouldn't like to go there. It's also more expensive being a private school. I, like you, will be taking the LSAT this Fall term. My GPA isnt the best in the world and so I have to do good on the LSAT. I have good test taking skills. Thats basically the reason why I got into college in the first place. I did really well on the SAT but my GPA wasn't something I liked to talk about. And from what I understand, while in your first year in Law School there is simply no time for a job on the side. It's kinda like this: 1st year they scare you to death, 2nd death they work you to death, 3rd year they bore you to death.

I think the jobs in law school thing has been discussed by some of the law students and attorneys on GC. From what I can remember, they highly discourage it in the first year, and some schools downright prohibit first years from working.

I don't know if it helps you any, but I made a pretty big move for architecture school (another place where it's three years of intensely hard work, and you're not supposed to have a PT job)--to NYC, nonetheless. Most schools will provide housing (especially law schools), and larger loans are available to offset the cost of an expensive legal education than are available for undergrad. I guess it depends on if you're really interested in going to a prestigious school. Personally, I think taking out loans is worth it if you want to go to a "good" school.

I went only an hour away for law school, but it was kind of a spur of the moment decision for me -- I took the LSAT in June, applied, and started in August. I took out loans for my first year, which was more than enough money, but I attended a super cheap, public school in an area where it's very inexpensive to live. Our administration told us that the ABA prohibited first year law students from having jobs. I don't know if that's actually true, but I would strongly advise against having a job first year. Your first year grades are incredibly important in terms of finding summer jobs and making law review -- which can both be very, very important to your career. Attorneys tend to be both school and grade snobs, so it's in your best interest to go to the best school that you can. Second and third year I got scholarships but I still took out student loans to pay my living expenses, but I also worked part time. That was fine for me, and I actually found that I was better at managing my time when I had more to do -- class, work, law review, etc.

When deciding where to go to school, you should think about what you want to do after you graduate. If you want to work at a large law firm (and if you do, more power to you!) you should look at the US News law school rankings and attend the highest ranked school that you can, although you should also take into account where you want to practice law and consider going somewhere nearby so you will have lots of alumnae support when you graduate.

This has nothing to do with what you've asked, and I hope I don't sound bitchy (because that is not my intent at all) but I hope that you have VERY SERIOUSLY considered why you want to attend law school and what you want out of a legal career. Quite honestly, I wish that someone had told me that before I went because I probably shouldn't have gone at all. I harp on this all the time -- be sure you know what you're getting into because it's a rough, expensive journey. I hope that you're going into this with realistic expectations as to what a legal career involves (I say that because I did not). In other words, I hope that other people can learn from my mistakes. :)

Good luck, and let me know if you have any other questions!

What happened?

I just hate being an attorney. :)

But do you like the money? I'd be rather happy to just be a University professor of Western Humanities or European/American History. But based on the money I see being made by friends and family members in the field of personal injury, I just cant turn down that opportunity. Most would agree that I'm wanting to go into it for all the wrong reasons, but most personal injury attorneys seem to be in everything for the wrong reason....money.

Actually, no, I don't particularly care about money. I had the chance to go work at a large law firm making tons of $$$ (after clerking for a federal judge), but the lifestyle and long hours required is absolutely NOT WORTH IT to me. My friends at large law firms are all unhappy. The people I have enountered who work at large law firms and are not unhappy are, IMHO, freaks with whom I would not wish to have contact on a regular basis.

Anyway, I work as a public defender now so I don't make jack. I actually like my job, except for the law part, lol. Money would absolutely never make me happy if I didn't like my job.

Valkyrie is on the money in terms of evaluating why you want to go to law school. I applied to law school knowing I didn't want the big firm thing. Taking out loans and putting myself in that position was risky knowing that I was not going to wind up in a job where I would start at 100K.

On the job issue, if you go to a school that is a member of NALP: National Association of Law Placement, you have to sign something when you're admitted that says you won't work your first year. I think that it might have specified that you couldn't have a legal job, but am getting old. Some of my friends worked as aerobic instructors and taught really early before class, but other than that no one could really hold a job and meet the requirements of first year.

I also want to confirm that lawyers are HUGE grade and school snobs. It is definitely in your best interest to go to the best school you can get into. Keep in mind that law schools look at everything about you. I had ok grades from a prestigous undergrad and a very good LSAT score. I applied to 14 schools and was accepted at 9 of them, waitlisted at 3 and rejected from 2. I highly recommend working with an academic counselor on targeting "Sure Thing," "Likely," and "Reach" schools to apply to.

Good luck!

LD

Question for either valkyrie or lauradav:

Should I go to school in the state where I intend to practice, or are law school curriculums general enough where I can go to any school and then study to take a particular state's bar exam?

It seems a lot of people consider taking the LSAT just for the hell of it. I had two roommates in consecutive years that both took the test and although they finished with respectable scores, it wasn't enough for them to even consider applying to law school.

It depends upon the school and the state. If you go to a national law school you can live where ever you want. If you go to a more local law school (not nationally ranked), you have to go to one located close to where you want to practice (if you want to work for a big firm).

LD

A few more questions...
 

Thanks to everyone who replied, I'm soaking up all the helpful info! I just have a few more questions though...

Any thoughts on 1st Tier, 2nd Tier, etc? I have the 2004 US News and World Report rankings, and were a little bit confused. Some schools are ranked #1 for say environmental law, yet they are a Tier 3 school in the general ranking. Would you recommend going to a school with a higher specialty ranking, or higher overall ranking?

Did any of you start law school planning on being a defense lawyer and totally change tracks and go into international law or something? I guess I'm just wondering if changing directions in law school is as easy as changing majors in undergrad.

Lauradav, you mentioned applying to 14 schools...that seems like a lot! Is that so you had a lot of options, or were you not exactly sure where you wanted to go? How did you narrow it down after you got accepted to 9 schools? It was suggested to me to apply to about 5-7 schools, would it be in my best interest to apply to more?

I'm really starting to get nervous about the LSAT, can anyone give me pointers that got them through the few weeks prior to the test and the test itself?!! I take it October 4th and I'm skrrred!

Thanks again everyone for sharing your experiences!

I would completely disregard the specialty rankings and go to the best law school that you get into. Lawyers care a lot more about what school you went to and what your grades were than what the specialty is that the law school is known for. I went to law school thinking that I wanted to practice Environmental Law (my undergrad was Geography & Environmental Studies). When I took Env. Law in law school and would be happy doing that some day, but since graduating I've practiced Criminal and Corporate Litigation and Corporate Transactional Law. I never would have guessed that I would be doing what I'm doing now when I started or even graduated from law school. To make a long story short I would go to the highest ranking school you get into if you are planning on applying for firm jobs.

I applied to a lot of law schools compared to some people primarily b/c I was a really borderline candidate for top tier schools and my counselor told me to apply to a lot of them to increase my admissions chances. I also had a lot of extraciriculars going for me (I played lacrosse and was on student government at a large state school). They boosted my admissions chances as well. It was very interesting to see where I got in and where I didn't.

The only advise I can give on the LSAT is to do your Kaplan homework. I took Kaplan too and I just did workbook problems again and again. I figured I couldn't practice too much. Back in the day we didn't get our results for 6 weeks -- that was actually the worst part -- waiting for results. I had a recurring nightmare about bailing on the LSAT every night for 6 weeks. Of course after that it was that I didn't get into law school and then after that it was that I failed out of law school. It is always something in the process unless you are smart and do it the way Valkyrie did.

It's a very emotional process. I lived in the house while applying and there were six of us going through it plus my boyfriend. Talk about tough tension to deal with -- ugh!

Valkyrie, you are sooo right about what you posted. I work with a bunch of attorneys, and at least half of them bitch and moan about their jobs and halfway regret getting their JD's. My fiance took a long time to decide whether or not to return to law school (took a leave of absence for medical reasons) because he's not sure if he wants to practice law. I told him to at least finish and think about taking the state bar exam, therefore giving him the OPTION of practicing should he change his mind. I told him that he could also consider being a law professor.

Speaking as someone who is a JD and is *not* practicing law, there are many, many alternative career options out there for JDs who don't care to practice.

Granted, its definitely "the road less travelled" but for me, it works. I apply my legal reasoning and research skills every day, I'm successful, and I'm happy as a clam.

I wholeheartedly agree with valkyrie and lauradav--you should do some serious soul-searching about WHY you want to go to law school and practice law. However, if you should find yourself in law school and feeling "trapped," its NOT the end of the world. There are ways for you to make your law school education work *for* you on *your own* terms. :)

hey lawyers, can you help a poor student??

Im a 2L at Seton Hall, which has an excellent reputation in NJ, and is a top 5 school for Health Law (which is the specialty I plan to pursue)... however, im in the top half, but not at the top, of the class.

I am in the process now of applying for my summer job- i've been on three interviews, got one rejection, and havent heard from the other two. One is a firm I really want to work at-- the last few years, they've hired mainly from my program at my school, so thats an edge I have. They're hiring 4-5 clerks, I hear. I also have an interview next week at a PI/Med Mal firm that is supposedly very good, but its NOT what I want to practice.

How important is your summer job after your 2nd year? I know its very important in trying to find employment your 3rd year- but what if I decide to clerk for a judge for a year? I currently am a clerk to a personal injury lawyer (this is how I know I dont want to practice it!) so I have some legal work experience-- but the job market is SO tough for my class, and I dont know if I will wind up with a job at all, so I might have to stay where I'm at now. If I do have to stay here, I would also want to intern for a judge like I did last summer.

Thanks :D

Just wondering...

When do people usually take LSATs?
How often are they given?
When do people usually apply to law school?

-Rudey

Check out http://www.lsac.org. It contains most of the information you will need.

Regarding the whole "which law school to attend" debate, I'd like to mention something that hasn't been covered yet:

$$$ COST $$$

While I would generally agree that you should try to attend the best school to which you can get admitted, there are other factors.

If you want to practice law at a big firm in NYC, California, Wash D.C., or any other big city, then you probably should go for the highest ranked school that you can.

However, if you know where you want to live, and you don't want to work for a big firm, then going to Harvard, Yale, Columbia, etc. may not be the best idea.

Coming from my own personal experience, my 1st summer I clerked for one of the biggest, most prestigious firms in the country. Good experience that summer, but I would have HATED working there permanently. Insane work hours, cutthroat environment, etc.

This past summer I worked for a regional midsize firm that I just loved. Everyone was very friendly, first-name basis, great mentoring. I'll be working there next March after the Feb. bar exam. (Yay!!!! :D Lucky me!) This firm is very well regarded in the Central Florida area and the attorneys are pretty much all law review, honors graduate types. The vast majority of them went to state schools like U. Florida, Florida State, U. N. Carolina, Virginia, etc.

The point is: for the job that is right for me, I was better off going to a state school. UF is a top tier law school, but at a bargain price. My tuition is not even $3000 per semester and the cost of living in Gainesville is very cheap. Since I also went to UF undergrad and had a lot of scholarships then, I'll graduate with very little debt. Because of this, I have so much freedom to do anything I want with my legal career. If you go to Harvard, for example, you could graduate with over $100,000 debt. That's pretty scary!

You would have little choice but to take a job with a big firm. While the salaries are very good, the lifestyle is horrible. There is a reason that the turnover for associates at those firms is every 2-3 years. After my own experience and listening to stories from other attorneys and law students, I am not a fan of the so-called "BigLaw" firms. The midsize firms offer many of the same benefits as the big firms (resources, support staff, etc.) but a much better lifestyle. You can get a good job by simply going to the best ranked public law school in your state.

Actually, it might be even easier to get a job like mine from an in-state law school - at least in Florida, all the well-respected in-state firms interview at UF, most at FSU, Stetson and Miami as well. But these firms don't bother to interview up at Columbia, etc. It would be too expensive and they have always been able to find enough quality people at UF.

My bf, who's a 3L at HLS, made the following comments:


G8Ralphaxi's right that you can get nice firm offers to make decent money without going to a top 10 law school. BUT see, I could be the biggest loser at harvard and walk into one of those jobs. Granted, debt may not allow me to take a job for $70k when top in the market is $100k- but I have the choice. When you graduate from a lower tier school, you have to be in the top third of your class to even get a job at a midlaw type environment. If you're even a single tick below it, you're basically going to end up in a job where you don't make any more money than if you just got a job out of college (and, probably not doing something you want -- ie public defender or city attorney, etc).

Not all that important. I clerked at a Med & Legal Mal Defense firm and an admiralty firm and now do corporate transactional and litigation work.

I highly recommend externing for a judge for credit -- the connections you'll make there are invaluable.

As for the money issue on where to go to law school, I stand strong on my belief that you go to the best school you get into. Many times that is a public school, but other times it is not. In California we are fortunate that there are a lot of good state law schools, but there is still a difference b/w how firms across the country and in california look at degrees from different schools.

AlphaGam - I would expect that Harvard Law grads do very well in the job market. I would also expect that the debt prevents the vast majority of them from doing public interest law or working for the government. They have to go to a "BigLaw" firm.

While I hear students here make jokes about "oh, haha, better study or you'll be a public defender," there are a lot of excellent lawyers that would not be happy in the firm environment. I know a lot of top-notch, honors graduates that are dedicating themselves to public interest work or have dreams of being a U.S. or state attorney. It just makes me sick to see people have hopes of doing great things and just get trapped by the debt and have to give up their dreams.

Go to a top tier public school - Florida, Michigan, Virginia, several of the California schools, etc. More bang for your buck. :D

RE: importance of summer job... depends on what you want to do after graduation. A heck of a lot of firms make their offers for permanent positions mainly, if not totally, within their class of 2L summer associates. If you want to work in a firm (anything from the biggest international firms down to the small regional ones), and it's big enough to have at least one spot for summer associates, your best chance of getting hired permanently is to be there in the summer. Plus, you will get a much more realistic look at the firm - more than you would ever learn from a couple hours of interviews.

Now, if you want to clerk for a judge after graduation or work for public interest groups or the government, etc. the summer job isn't so important as long as you've gotten good experience.

To me, one of the big benefits of the whole summer associate program is that when it works out - you like the firm and they like you - then you are DONE interviewing. Makes the last year much more relaxing not having to stress about finding a job. I don't have to get all dressed up and go thru all the interview B.S. Especially in this economy, it's really nice to know ahead of time what you're doing.

First, thanks to everyone for great replies on this subject. I have a few more questions though. I'm starting my applications, and have no clue what to write for my personal statement. Most of the schools have guidelines like "why you think you would make a great law student," "why you want to go to law school," "tell about yourself"....I am having the worst case of writers block EVER!
Also about the letters of recommendation, my favorite professor can't write me one because he had to leave in the middle of the semester and will not be returning. (Long story beyond that, but there is no way he can write me a letter.) So now I have no clue, other than the Director of Greek Life, whom I am close with and have worked with for 2 years on Panhellenic. Should I ask my academic advisor? Someone suggested that I ask the head of the dept. where my fave professor taught to write me one, if I explain the situation. It's just that I haven't made real close ties with any other professors at school because lectures are so impersonal. I've never taken a class with a prof more than once, because they just don't teach enough different classes. So who do you think I should ask? Advisor, or head of dept.?

Bump :)

Go to the best school you can get into. Period. Everyone takes a bar review class the summer before the bar exam and that is where you learn what you need to pass the bar.

did you get my PM?

Good to know. Thanks!

Re: A few more questions...
 

I would go to the higher ranked overall. I'm a practicing attorney at a big firm, and I've never seen the so-called specialty rankings have any pull during recruiting season!

Your second year summer job is really important. At big firms, about 95% of their incoming attorneys have gone through the summer program their second year summer, so it's harder to find a job during your third year.

And you never know what you might find interesting! With the economy being as tough as it is right now, I'd take the best job you can find for the summer and hope to land a permanent spot there!

I couldn't agree with AlphaGam more.....when I graudated from college, I was faced with a choice: full scholarship at a well respected law school in my area, or 100K plus of debt at an Ivy League. My dad told me to go for broke and attend the Ivy, and I have never once regretted it. While you can get an excellent education at a lesser ranked school, the options you have are greater coming out of a top ranked school, and you don't have to be first in your class and on law review to get a great job.

I mostly agree with this, BUT it depends on what you want to do. If you want to work at a large law firm, you should absolutely go to the best school you can get into. However, if the big firm lifestyle isn't appealing to you and you'd rather do public interest work, you should seriously consider going to a cheaper school. It's impossible to work in public interest (and that includes being a public defender or prosecutor) if you went to a very expensive school because the salaries are low. I did not go to a top school, but I graduated summa cum laude & was on law review, so I had my pick of public interest positions (I got a lot of, "Wow, we've never had someone with such a high GPA apply!") and I landed a federal clerkship. I was never interested in working at a big firm, so going to a top school wasn't important to me at all.

If you don't know what kind of law you want to do, really think about it before you start law school. I'm amazed and saddened every day when I hear about the many unhappy attorneys who feel trapped in their horrible law firm jobs because of their loan debt. Don't let that happen to you!

Tax law. I'm guessing I could go either way on that - firm job or IRS/SEC/etc.

Something to remember -- when you're in law school, you can apply for positions with the Department of Justice through their Honors Program. Watch for that -- it's a great opportunity. Also, almost anyone can greatly benefit from clerking for a judge right out of law school. It's a great job and opens many doors.

I heard that area has the best (shortest) hours (in most firms) ;)

So, who has what offers so far for law school?

I'm probably going to end up going in-state. I didn't think I would, but being on this London trip makes me appreciate the value of friendship. I'm kind of kicking myself for not going to my undergrad school cause I got almost a full scholarship..I'd have to pay only $600 a year. But I'll end up at UofK cause it's a little better and I like the city better.

I'm waiting to hear from IU, Wash&Lee, & Will&Mary.

I got into UofL, UofK...waiting list at UConn.

1 Rejection.

it's a funny thing applying to schools wile working in an admissions office.

I thought this might help everybody looking into law school

Ranking On Law School

I think this ranking site does a better service then the all famous US News one.

I'll be going to UM in the spring 2005.

here's the link: http://www.law.miami.edu/

Those rankings are interesting, but they seem to focus very heavily on the faculty.

How many times someone's been published or cited in other sources isn't necessarily indicative of how good of a teacher they are. I've had some profs that aren't as academically known be mcuh more phenomenal teachers than the superstar profs.

I think any rankings are subjective. The US news and world report at least looks at a variety of factors. And they can change quickly. My school has jumped from mid second tier to first tier in the past two years. The other school I was considering went the exact opposite. :)

It's all a crapshoot, lol