How do you feel about this controversial topic?
 

How do you guys (or your entire organization) feel about gay sisters/brothers?? Do you have "out" members and did they face a lot of problems with the decision to be honest about themselves, or is it an unspoken understanding that no gay members are accepted?

I am not gay, but I have a lot of friends who are and they told me this weekend that they are nervous my possible involvment with a GLO will prevent me from hanging out with them, because of the suspected homophobic attitude of greeks. And to be honest, I don't know if I would want to be apart of a group that treated homosexuals badly. So, can my friends rest easy, or do they, and I, have reason to worry??

AZpinkkittie:

There are actually a couple of threads that have discussed this topic in the past and I will post some links at the bottom of this message.

Unfortunately, I think the answer to your question is...it just depends.

It is hard to tell or judge if a person (or group of persons) have homophobic attitudes when going through a very structured process such as recruitment (particularly sororiy recruitment). I would say that most likely that this is something that you would find out during your new member program just by the attitudes, conversations, etc. with other members.

I can tell you with almost 100% accuracy that there are (or have been) gay/bisexual members in every fraternity or sorority at one time (maybe not the chapter of that org. at that time) but I'm sure that one time or another a chapter is going to have a member who is leasbian/gay/bisexual.

I have a few gay chapter brothers (4 that I can think of [and know of]...out of around 50 when I was an undergrad.) At no point in time did they (or I) feel that we couldn't be in the chapter (or out) for that matter....actually if I think about it....most of those brothers who are gay were some of the most involved, and dedicated members and students on campus.

Now, we didn't have a brother during my time as an undergrad who "officially" came out to the entire chapter, but there where brothers who knew...it was something that just wasn't discussed...at least not in my presence...but that doesn't surprise me....lol...

Honestly, in a big group you are going to have opinions and feelings in either direction. There are going to be members who are very supportive of lesbian/gay/bisexual individuals and those who are not.....in a chapter you align youself with those indivdiuals that you feel most comfortable with (believe it or not you will not get a long with every member of your chapter...trust me on that one!!!!)

There are a number of different resources that you can check out:

http://www.lambda10.org (a website dedicated to gay & lesbian fraternity sorority issues)

On greek chat:

http://www.greekchat.com/gcforums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=22081&highlight=homosex ual+greeks

http://www.greekchat.com/gcforums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=16790&highlight=homosex ual+greeks

Hope some of this helps.

-o.p.i.e.

One of the largest fraternities on our campus had around 10 guys come out at the same time. Everyone else figured it'd be devestating for them.

To be fair, they DID sweep it under the carpet and minimize it during recruitment. Other houses tried to make a big deal of it (one painted rainbow colors over their letters). However, it doesn't seem to have effected them much over the long haul.

I couldn't tell you whether it has been a good or bad thing. I'd assume it was a challenge to their brotherhood but it looks like they succeeded.

Honestly, I wouldn't have a problem with it. But opie is right, it all depends on how you think of gay people in general. If you are extremely homophobic, then yes, you will have a problem with gay men or women in your GLO. If you are accepting of gay people, then you most likely won't care.

There's a few gay guys in one fraternity on my campus. Most people call them cruel names, paint pink triangles on the street by their house, and do nothing but talk about how they're ALL gay. I think they're great for being so accepting of their brothers who are gay. It's starting to come out that other members of the Greek community are gay though, and they're starting to get shit about it. I'm very disappointed in our Greek community in that respect. :(

Our SFE chapter had an openly gay founding father, and it was a non-issue with them. To this day, they have a "Safe Zone" pink triangle at the entrance to their house. I believe they still have a couple gay brothers, but I don't think any of them our out. I also know our FMA Sinfonia chapter has several openly gay brothers, one of whom is a Gammie Guy for my chapter (I was his sponsor. :)). I think most Greeks don't care who their brother/sister thinks is cute as long as they are doing in a way that doesn't embarass the chapter (nobody wants to see anybody else making out, regardless of the gender makeup of the couple) and as long as they are involved with the chapter. I think Wisconsin schools, for the most part, are pretty liberal, and so it's not usually an issue.

I can tell you from personal experience it's nothing to worry about. This past spring(03) we had an openly gay man pledge and become a brother. I can tell you he is one of the best examples of brotherhood to my chapter. He would do anything for the brotherhood. I think it's a non-issue for us now. We were split at first, but, we convinced everyone just to give him a chance and get to know him.

I personally would not have any problem at all with an openly gay sister. No one in my chapter was openly gay, but if someone had come out - she'd still be my sister.

I have seen some very homophobic incidents at my school involving other orgs, though.

There was some unpleasantness between two fraternities while I was an undergrad. A member of one fraternity came out, and his brothers really supported him... but the second fraternity allegedly painted some homophobic graffiti at the first fraternity's house.

There was also some unpleasantness within a sorority, where there was a sister who was very well liked, popular, was a chapter officer, etc. She came out, and suddenly her sisters wouldn't speak to her, and she was never elected to office again.

So I guess YMMV... but really, if you can't come out to your own sisters or brothers, who can you come out to?

I'm on a small and very liberal campus, so it's not really a problem here. One of the other sororities here has several lesbian sisters (two of them actually dated for a long time, but that's irrelevant). The fraternity I'm a sweetheart of also has 3 or 4 openly gay brothers (whom I love), alot of them hold exec positions and are very accepted . I don't think it comes up as an issue during rush at all, it's not played up, but it's not played down either. It just is. The other fraternities have sometimes told rushees that being in that house will "make you gay" and make references to it during greek week stuff, but nothing too harsh ever happens. Nobody puts much stock in those kind of generalizations. I have no idea about other campuses though. I surely hope that no sisterhood would tear you away from your Independent friends, no matter what their orientation.

If you believe statistics, about 10% of our population is gay, so in a chapter of 50, there are probably (potentially at least) 5 gay members, whether they admit it or not.

Frankly, any chapter who discriminates against gays is opening itself up for a lot of future trouble.

There are some ardent anti-gay members on GC, but I think you will find that most of us don't have a problem with gay members.

Really, it all depends on the campus climate. If people there are generally prejudiced towards homosexuals, the Greeks will be too. If the campus is generally tolerant, the Greeks usually are as well. As GeekyPenguin said, most of the Wisconsin campuses are fairly liberal, and I know there's at least one fraternity man out here at Wisconsin, and most of the Greek organizations have been supportive. The same goes for the University of Minnesota, where I went last year -- there were at least two or three gay fraternity men who felt comfortable enough to share their "coming out to their fraternity" stories with the campus newspaper. They all said they were scared to come out, but once they did, their brothers hugged them and told them that they were supportive.

Unfortunately, there DOES seem to be a higher percentage of homophobes in the Greek community than in the rest of the world. But there are usually, at any campus, a number of Greek organizations that are accepting of alternative sexualities. I know that personally, I've NEVER heard one of my sisters say anything disparaging about homosexuals, and I can't imagine most -- if any -- of the other sorority girls here saying anything either.

I know that most chapters here have at least one gay brother or sister, whether they are open of not. One of the biggest houses actually has about 4 openly gay guys, and it's just a non-issue for them. One of the guys in the house(he was straight) actually ran for and became our ASWSU vice pres. His running mate, our student body pres, was openly gay, so again, a non-issue. My freshman year, we had a sister who wasn't quite out of the closet, but if people figured it out, or asked her, she would say. Some people were very uncomfortable with it, but for the most part, things went ok. I think that it just depends, and there are always going to be those few, very homophobic people, who are just very narrowminded and rude. And there will be those people who don't even think it's an issue at all, so again, it just depends.

not quite
 

That's kind of like saying that since our population is 10% Asian or Mormon or whatever, that 10% of every chapter will have 10% of those groups. It just doesn't hold water. I mean, if there were any Mormons at Clarion period, they were hiding.

There are schools where groups "cluster" (BYU & Mormons being a basic example). I would guess that if you're gay and researching colleges, you're going to see if they have support groups, etc, and I would assume there are more gay people in general at those colleges. If a college is known for being on the intolerant side, unless it has a very special major that you can't find anywhere else, there probably won't be as many gay people there.

Don't get me wrong, I have no problem with gay brothers or sisters, but statistics don't tell the story either.

Not to mention the fact that many gays and lesbians don't join Greek organizations because of the "homophobic" label that's been attached to them, and they assume they won't feel comfortable there. So to assume that every organization should be ten percent gay is an oversimplification.

Try going to, I think, lambda10.org. I'm not sure the exact website. It has to do with homosexuals in GLOs. I've been there once and it's very interesting reading. There are a few national organizations that have specifically outlawed discrimination according to sexual orientations. So if your organizations has it, the debate is a mood point legally. Of course, many chapters doesn't follow nationals by-laws policies to the teeth.

Re: not quite
 

I think that some of you all are making the assumption that before people come to college or join an organization, they know that they are gay. Most people come to grips with their sexuality during college. There are a lot gay people who are in deep deep denial and they try to join greek organizations because they are trying to give an appearance of a "typical" straight person. I know a lot of gay people that joined a greek organization before they came out to others and to themselves and used to be some of the most homophobic people you would ever meet...

Count Phi Mu Alpha Sinfonia as one such GLO. Our constitution prohibits discrimination on the basis of "race, ethnicity, national origin, sexual orientation, disability or religion."

Re: Re: not quite
 

I agree. But the point I was trying to make was that just because this or that group is 10% of the general population, it is not 10% of every subset of that population.

If I like a person, I will continue to like him/her whether he/she is gay or straight. Conversely, if I can't stand the person his/her sexual orientation wouldn't change that either. Cool people are cool people, a$$holes are a$$holes.

I believe this is the only issue out there that I take a more liberal stance on. Shhh! Don't tell anyone...

33 & S&S,

That's why it says potentially.

By the way, when did it become a "fact" that many gays and lesbians don't join Greek organizations? I think that's an assumption that might not hold up. (see zchi2 post above)

I found out many years after graduation that our pledge master and later chapter president was gay.

Just because many gay people in our society aren't "out" it doesn't mean they aren't there.

33, I think there's a difference in your thoughts and mine. Being Morman or Asian isn't the sort of "secret" thing that being gay has been in the past -- and to some extent continues to be. In fact, I wonder if it wouldn't prove correct that if, let's say 10% of people on a given campus are Asian, that about 10% of the Greek population would also be Asian? And that would probably be easier to prove.

I think (but can't prove it) that the percentage figures for gays would stand up to scrutiny on any campus, because that population is not as sectionalized (in terms of where they live) as Mormans or Asians who probably still tend to live together in identifiable areas (Utah, for instance).

DeltAlum:

I can speak for the campus from which I am currently an advisor, and our cultural/ethinc breakdown actually mirrors that of the university at large...in fact we actually have a little bit more of visible minority groups in our fraternity and sorority community.

I would tend to believe (just from my own experience) that you would be correct deltalum and that the breakdown would be very similar (if not the same as) the campus averages for different groups...but there are always exceptions....and not every campus tracks that kind of information on its members.

Of course, we do not track based upon religion, beliefs, sexual identification, etc.

I can tell you that there are actually several fraternity and sorority members who are "out" on this campus, and most have never had any serious issues or problems with their chapters or others in the greek community (to my knowledge).

From the articles I've read, the percentage of gay men in fraternities is lower than 10%, and the number of lesbian women in sororities is far lower than the number of gay men in fraternities. (This of course only applies to those who are "out," since we can't do studies on those who aren't . . . ) Nobody's sure why the number of gay women is lower than that of the men, but I have a feeling it might have something to do with IFC vs. NPC rush systems -- fraternity men are more likely to know a guy or be friends with him before he goes through rush (or he may not "rush" in a conventional sense at all) whereas, with NPC formal rush, you may not know much, or anything, about a woman before rush and would be more likely to judge on initial impressions. If the only thing you know about a woman before rush is that she's a lesbian, you're less likely to give her a bid than if you know she's a lesbian, the sweetest girl in the universe, an awesome soccer player, a loyal friend and a great singer.

I'm not trying to speak for every gay person -- I know there are many who don't come out until halfway through college, or after it. But I also think it's obvious that the ten percent figure doesn't apply to every situation in life. It's likely that if you walk into a guys' ballet class, you will find more "out" gay men than if you were looking for them on a football field. Reason #1 for that: gay men feel more comfortable coming out in a situation where it's more acceptable to be gay, and where there's a precedent of those who come out being accepted. Reason #2: many people are drawn to situations where they will feel more comfortable, and repelled by those where they would feel uncomfortable. If you're a gay men, you may LOVE playing football but quit the team because some of your teammates make homophobic comments that disturb you. Or you may love football but never join the team in the first place because you're afraid that they won't accept you. Unfortunately, GLOs fall into the category of "situations where many gay people are afraid they won't be accepted." There isn't much of a precedent of people coming out at all, let alone being accepted by their brothers and sisters after they do. (Fortunately this is changing.)

I am by no means trying to say that this applies to all gay people (and I'm sure there are some gay football players out there), I just think it's ridiculous to say that just because gay people make up ten percent of the population, they will make up ten percent of ANY population.

On our campus, the percentages of minorities did not reflect the campus population. The percentage of Asians in GLOs, for example, was less than that of the school. Why? We had a large international student population, which was not involved in Greek life at all. The numbers of Asian Americans, however, was similar for both Greek life and the student body.

I do think, for sororities at least, it is rarer for an out lesbian to join than it is for a member to come out later. That's not to say it doesn't happen.

But as to the original question: If tolerance is important to you, I would think you're more likely to pick one of the more tolerant groups on your campus, and I would look for subtle clues during rush. (I can't really advise asking point-blank, "So how do you feel about gay rights?" or something - as the sororities are advised not to talk about politics, religion or controversial subjects during rush.) Because chapters do differ, as some of the examples other people have mentioned above show.

I would be cool with it! We are supposed to accept our brothers and sisters as they are, regardless of race, color, religion, creed AND sexual orientation! From talking to my gay and lesbian friends, coming out is hella difficult. I would stand by them no matter one.

They mess with my brother or sister, they mess with me!

My view, as also posted in another thread somewhere in the forums:

I don't have any gay brothers. For that matter, I don't have any black brothers, asian brothers, or any "x" brothers for a label.

I only have brothers in the bonds of Lambda Chi Alpha. Period.

There is nothing now (times were different until the 1960's) in our ritual that specifies what "label" a brother can or cannot have.

I think that another reasons for the smaller number of lesbian women in sororities could be due to the fact that most studies that I have seen the median age for "coming out" or acceptance of homosexual identity is at a older age for women, thus after the college (and greek) experience.....just a thought.

we have an openly gay brother, and it has never been a problem at all. hes a really cool guy, he lives with 5 really hot alpha phi's and is always trying to hook us up with them. i wouldnt be worried about it. i mean when i first found out as a pledge (he is 1 year older) i thought people in this house had a prob with it, but no one does and no one holds it against us. be proud of who you are and other people will be 2

For those that may not know, JonoBN41 is a Gay LXA! I am not telling any secrets as he told it on LXA Thread. I knew it before then.

I met Jono 1 1/2 years ago bidding on ebay site and mailed him!

Since then, we have become vast Friends and Brothers, I went down to Melbourne ( FIT ) for His Founders Day and He came to mine (Pittsburg , Ks).

We dont talk every night, but at least 4-5 days a week!

He is Gay, But one of the Best Friends I have!!!

If I had a Gay member in the Chapter, I would treat him like the Asian, Black, and White Brothers as a Brother of LXA!:)

This might be true in some cases, but a lot of times the person that feels the need to talk about gay people all the time is gay. Just like a lot of people who always talk about how beautiful and sexy they are usually are the people with the lowest self-esteem. Also if homophobic comments ran away all gay people, then there wouldn't be any gay people in churches. I have gone to some of the most conservative churches and seen more gay men singing in the choir than at the local gay club...

Also I think that there might be a lower number of lesbians in sororities is because women are more likely than men to still say they are straight even if they had many sexual relationships with women. They say it was just an emotional connection :rolleyes:

Thanks so much for posting all your thoughts!!!!! I really appreciate your honesty, and now that I know, your tolerance :) I'm not the type of person to judge a group by one member, so would probably listen to a lot of you and just go by my feelings on the group as a whole. But since I don't know anyone in a sorority, I didn't know what the overall feeling was. I'm happy to see it's a good one. I will check out that site and I will have my friends check it out too. It's nice to know that the whole brotherhood/sisterhood thing doesn't come with a disclaimer "Only if you're straight." Thanks again for easing my mind :D

I am against it.

If you are in favor of having members with a different sexual orientation are you also in favor of having members of the opposite sex?

what are you talking about? Those are two completely different things :rolleyes:

No, that's a totally different ballgame. We were founded to promote the highest type of womanhood, not to love men. So having a woman who loves another woman is fine. I don't think men can promote the highest type of womanhood.

Madmax: I'm sure what ever GLO you are a member of has a value, principle, goal of brotherhood, character, honor, etc. By making that statement it shows that you are not willing to try to live up to the ideals, goals, principles, and values that your organization is based on. How is a gay man any less capable of deminstrating brotherhood? The answer is he is not!! By making that statement you have shown that you do not believe in brotherhood, character, or the honor of all men. If you do not honor others how can you honor yourself?

Great speech. Now, how about I substitute the word woman everywhere you used the word man. Should your fraternity start pledging women for all the same reasons that you just gave me.
Do you pledge women? If not then why not? Whatever your reason is, is probably the same reason why I prefer not to have gay members.

The reason why an all male fraternity wouldn't pledge women is because it's creed and principles are for men not women. Are you trying to say gay men aren't men? You're confusing me. You need a better analogy.:rolleyes:

My analogy is fine. You need better reading comprehension skills. I never said gay men aren't men. You said that.

I simply believe that if your fraternity/sorority can choose not to recruit members of a different sex, then another can choose not to recruit members of a different sexual orientation for the same reasons.

madmax, don't get so defensive and start telling people what they need. this is a touchy subject for people, and perhaps people are just trying to understand where you are coming from. the fact is, discrimination is discrimination. using the point about male fraternities not pledging women for the same reason they may not pledge a homosexual is VERY poor logic. it is definitely not the same thing, or close to the same thing, and the fact that you are using it as an analogy proves that you are just grasping at straws to see what you can come up with.

I really don't know your organization, but isn't it against a rule somewhere for your fraternity that a woman can't be a member??? I really didn't think that was a "choice."

So it's ok to say that you don't want a certain race in your chapter too?

I don't know if you slept through school or not so I'll take this nice and slow for you. See a woman is very different from a man. I'm sure everyone on here would agree with me. For starters they have different genetalia than men do. They have more pronounced and defined breasts. Women have different sets of values in most cases. Also what works for a man most of the time does not work for a woman and vice versa. My fraternity was set up for men, all men are welcome in Phi Sigma Kappa. We at one time had a little sister system also. Not sure why it was ended not really my problem. But, my point is, how is a gay man any different from you other than his sexual orientation?

Well I would give it to madmax and say that at least he is honest. But apparently he knows that it's something wrong with his views because he doesn't identify what organization he is apart of. On behalf of your fraternal brothers, THANK YOU for not telling us what organization you are apart of.