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Are you worried about our society?
I was watching Oprah today and she was talking about the high school "hazing" incident and other reckless/violent teenage incidents. Then I watched the news and was further disturbed by similar incidents. I really worry about the state of our society and the raising of our youth. It's such a blame game: kids don't take responsibility and parents don't seem to make them...sometimes the parents even contribute to it or try to cover it up. "Oh, they're just kids." Yeah, that'll make them grow up! :rolleyes: Doesn't anyone have values/morals/conscience anymore? What is our society coming to? What is it going to be like...5 years from now...10 years from now? Personally, I find it really distressing! :(
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This is a great thread Leslie.
I think it's the same old story. Each generation finds a reason to "worry" about those who follow. Youth always have a way of shocking society. Elvis moved his hips and caused panic. The Beatles were an outrage. When heavy metal hit, some said it was the devil. There is even an idiot in another forum that thinks we (Greeks) are involved in cults. Kids have been killing kids throughout history. Is it bad today? Yes, it is. Is it really any different than 20 years ago? I don't think so. Perhaps it is different than 50 years ago. Do I worry about it? No! I tend not to worry about things I cannot control. All I can do is make sure I'm not involved in the stupidity, be aware of the dangers, and hope that when I have children, I can raise them in a manner that they learn the value of life and the difference between right and wrong. OMG, moral absolutes... LOL. Yes, I said, "right and wrong." |
I agree Bethany1982, but this went on before the advent of Elvis. In the early part of the 20th, the young people shock their elders by dancing to close to each other and listening to ragtime music. Women, would start smoking, drinking and wearing pants at that time (that was a scandal to their Victorian elders). However, when they got married and had children, whatever the children were listening to they'd get shock (from generation to generation). My mom listened to the Beatles and Buddy Holly, but she was shocked when I was 11 and listening to Twisted Sister and other metal groups. I am afraid if and when I have children that whatever they listen to, I be mad.
I am also outraged over what's going in this society. The blame game has to stop and real responsibilty must be taken. I don't understand the parents saying "oh, they just kids, this will make them grow up". Another thing they say is "this build character". I doubt the kids would learn anything useful about these stupid shenanigans, only to behave even worse than before. I hate to see how it goes in 5, 10, 15 or 20 years http://www.handykult.de/plaudersmilies.de/eek2.gif http://www.handykult.de/plaudersmilies.de/rolleyes.gif http://www.handykult.de/plaudersmilies.de/screams.gif http://www.handykult.de/plaudersmilies.de/smash.gif |
This is a little bit off topic, but I see the parents of the kids in my daughters' school and they really seem to have the attitude that their little ones can do no wrong. If there is a problem, it is the fault of the teacher or a classmate, but NEVER their kid.
I don't know if this is a new attitude, or if it was always like that and I just wasn't aware of it. I just know that if the principal had called MY home because I was acting up, I would have been in trouble with my parents. They wouldn't have been playing "pass the blame"! How about those kids outside of Chicago who were videotaped hazing and got expelled and their parents promptly hired lawyers to try to have them reinstated? Snarky li'l brats :rolleyes: |
KR, I have to agree with you. I see sooo many parents at my school who think their children can do no wrong. They aren't doing their kids any favor in the long run.
Today I got b****ed out by a grandma who swears that her grandson returned his library book. I explained that I had double-checked the shelves because he is usually dependable. She had the nerve to say that if I couldn't find it, it was the SCHOOL'S fault. Never mind that if he did bring it back to school, he did not put it in the correct place; therefore, he did not follow directions. I swear, some people....:rolleyes: |
The problem is rich kid's parents SPOILING them instead of teaching them lessons.
Oh, you dumped human feces on your schoolmates and got kicked out of your prom? Well, we don't want your senior year messed up regardless of what you've done, so we will spend our own money to throw you one. |
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I think it's the opposite of what you're all saying.
Society is now actually noticing that this goes on! It's been going on for years now! In this one HS incedent (let's face it, if there were no video it wouldn't even be newsworthy) it was reported that although this had gone on for some time, it had never gotten so out of hand. I find that hard to believe. 30 years from now if something like this had happened -- or someone got seriously hurt in say a college hazing incedent they would have written it off and said something like "Boys will be boys". It doesn't make it right in any way. However, society as a whole has just now started really paying attention to this stuff (thank the 24 hour news cycle). |
I'm guessing that this all goes in cycles. I bet that many of today's parents who have these snarky little beasts running amok in our society were raised by very strict parents, and are now erring in the other direction because *they* don't want to be too strict. When their kids grow up, they may end up being strict again because their parents weren't. What I think people fail to realize (and of course I'm not really one to talk since I don't have kids) is that a little moderation may be best. If you're too strict, your kids become sneaky and don't learn how to think for themselves, and if you're too lenient, you end up with a feces throwing spectacle.
As for corporal punishment -- I couldn't disagree more. To me, hitting your children teaches them that violence is an effective tool to solve problems and resolve conflicts. I think that's never a good idea. |
True, Society changes, some good some bad.
We have come to the point whereby This Society is Sue You Happy. This Society has come via the ACLU, that The Teacher cannot reprimand a child, physically or verbally!:( The parents expect the teachers to do the reprimanding, but the teachers are not the primary, the parents are. The Parents cannot, because that is child abuse and the parents go to jail without a defense, this is automatic. I have a customer who told his two sons No they could not do what they wanted. They called in a abuse call and he went to jail, automatic. He did not touch them!! Schools cannot discipline them, they just kick them out of school. Where do they go? Well the streets of course. Then what happens., they hook up and cause more probles until they get to be adults and then they go to Jail or Prison! Are you a parent? Do you want to be a parent? |
This is a pretty tough one for me, because I find myself conflicted when I try to form an answer. I'm sure the post will sound that way, so I appologize in advance.
There is a really old gag (and I'm not going to take the time to look for it -- I've got other things to do) where someone quotes a lot of stuff about kids being unruly, not listening to their parents, being resentful and uncaring, rebellious and all of this other stuff. The writer was Plato or some other "ancient" philosopher. There is another one where they describe three men. Two of them are made to sound like the dregs of the earth and one like the model citizen. The model citizen was Hitler. It all depends on context. I don't know if things are worse now than they've been in the past -- but I do know that we hear a lot more about them than we ever have. My industry is very much to blame for that. Particularly now that there are so many news sources available on TV and cable. We are saturated. Tom's comments about a litigation-happy society is certainly right. And teachers are caught in the middle of a three way mess. Parents want teachers to be proxy parents -- until the teacher says or does something the parent disagrees with. Schools are expected to be In Loco Parentis, which the kids hate and the parents support until -- again -- the school does something to discipline little Johnny or Jane. The kids play one against the other. They're not dumb. Well, usually. As a parent, you sit and think, "I can't believe that this kid thinks I don't know what's going on!" They play all of the same games we did at their age. And they do it the same way, and try to cover with the same tricks. The more things change, the more they stay the same. But the stakes may be much higher in the long run. Two of our kids were real academic winners in both high school and college. The other, our athlete, ended up barely graduating from high school and ended up in detox. What a blow to our family and our "egos" as parents. Of course, she is the one we worry least about now. She's a great mother and will probably be more financially successful than all of the rest of us as a hair dresser. The others are "artists" and will probably need and expect support all of their lives. They may be in for a rude shock due to our employment opportunities and income possibilities wither in this economy. So, what does it all mean. Beats the hell out of me. In the long run, I suspect that the generations now growing up will end up taking responsibility as needed and carry on fairly well. But parts of it can certainly be scary. Why do you think your parents have grey hair? Why is mine turning? How long before your does? |
I agree with ktsnake in that people are starting to stand up and take notice of things more than they used to.
I have heard a lot of reports of violent crime going down in areas, with "little" crimes increasing, yet people are so worried for their safety... just because they notice the few violent crimes that are more obvious in our self-righteous, politically correct society. For instance, obviously the reported incidence of rape has probably gone up since the 50s, but that doesn't necessarily mean there are more occurences, people just feel more comfortable in reporting it than they used to (although still not comfortable enough). I think that it is all a cycle and we can't be unhappy with society for how it is. We can try to make a difference in our own small ways, but we can't change everyone. Things are they way they are for a reason, and they tend to right themselves or get righted somehow. (That probably didn't make sense, but it does in my head... I swear!) |
I don't think it's necessarily gotten any worse. There have ALWAYS been problems with the way one generation views the one following them. I read a book on American history that says basically, the crime/drug use/whatever rates have remained pretty steady throughout America's history, but each generation likes to pretend they're steadily growing worse in order to instill panic and try to cause the current generation to "shape up." You can see this in the concern over the divorce rates -- they've actually been holding steady since the early 1970s, but everybody thinks they're steadily increasing and will eventually lead to the point where nobody stays married for more than a year.
I guess the point is that while the ways in which kids misbehave are constantly changing, a lot of it stays the same. I mean, hazing has been taking place for hundreds of years -- it was actually far more common and accepted at the turn of the 20th century than it is today. |
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Docet, I usually agree with what you have to say, but I'm begging you, please don't let the media sway you into turning this into a one sided issue. We're not all rich. Kids getting spoiled didn't lead to this sickening display- nothing could have caused it, IMHO, besides crappy parenting....personally I don't think that's the same as being spoiled. For some reason these 14 girls weren't raised with morals, weren't taught how to be HUMAN BEINGS and I think that's sick. But you cannot say that it's just spoiled kids. Kids in down home farm towns get hazed. Teens in the ghetto beat the ever loving shit out of each other for gang initiation. It can happen anywhere. Anyway I'm just tired of seeing it turned into a money issue. It's not a class issue, it's not a race issue. It's raising children to treat other people with respect, and for some reason our society in general just isn't about that anymore. |
There's a concept often discussed when studying mass media related topics. It's called agenda setting.
Basically it holds that the mass media does not determine what you think about an issue but it does determine what issues you think about. Just as a producer on the producer decides what reporters will cover what on a given day they are essentially deciding what people will see as contraversial. And again, I'll gaurantee you that this wouldn't even be an issue if there was no video of the event. |
don't worry
people used to believe that our generation would never see a war but it happened and it's not over we're going to reap the just rewards our society has spoiled us to the point that some guys can't even change a tire or change spark plugs in a car or will even get their hands dirty they just call AAA i believe we will experience hardship one day what am i talking about? more than half of this nation's college graduates will not have a job after they get their diplomas we're already there |
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The lady completely b****ed out my friend who was not even the real teacher of the class and was so mean to her. She said things like "What's wrong this time?! Is my daughter so unbearable you had to send her to the principal's office?!" Yikes! |
Ok, I'll give my opinion as the point of view of an expectant mother.
I think children nowadays have a lack of empathy overall. I think that our society is full of selfish, detached children who crave nothing but instant gratification. This is the fault of the parents and society as a whole. When parents are constantly covering for their kids and defending their worst behavior, the only lesson taught is that there is always a way out of everything. I don't think "beating their azz" would help. It just makes kids mistrust their parent. They'll just hide whatever they got beat for and do a better job of it next time. Parents don't seem to talk to their children anymore. Life lessons, morality, right and wrong can't be learned from tv or school. They have to be taught at home as well. I don't think just making sure your kids are fed, dressed and in school is enought parenting, and that is how most kids are being raised. Do I make sense? |
Along the lines of DeltAlum's post, there's a very good essay by Andy Rooney in his first book (A Few Minutes w/ Andy Rooney) called "Youth." I looked for it online but couldn't find it. He quotes President Eisenhower saying the youth was getting lazy & soft, and counters that by saying that when little Ike was planting corn someone was probably saying kids wouldn't work anymore. One of his points is that "elders" like to say kids suck, just because they are jealous of the fact that they are young and have their lives ahead of them. (he put it more eloquently, needless to say) The last line is "it's amazing how long this world has been going to hell without ever having gotten there."
Believe me, all the bad things in the world - rape, incest, fraud, violence - are not new. They've been going on forever. It's just that now instead of having a messenger take a month to go to another village to tell it, it's on the news in 5 seconds. I will say when I hear about kids having to have "play dates" every time they want to see a friend and regimented schedules from the age of 2, it makes me sad. When I wanted to play with my friends, I called them or just went to their house. If I wanted a day to do nothing more productive than put curlers and bows on my dog, that was fine too. I feel like kids are losing out on being kids, for the convenience of the parents. |
It's pretty easy to put all parents in a line and paint them with the same brush -- but it's not that simple.
In the specific case of the Northbrook hazing incident, I'll bet that out of the 14 sets of parents involved, that some of them are pretty good parents, who are shocked at what happened and not doing their very best to pretend that their offspring are perfect. Believe me, I've been there. What probably happened there is that two or three people got out of control, and the rest just followed along. Riots happen that way. Heading off in a different direction, now, regarding the input we receive from media in particular: What is of some concern to me in my "advancing state of maturity," (OK, read that middle-age), is that many of the "gatekeepers" of what actually is covered by newspapers and broadcasters is decided by very young people. Most of the Assignment Desk people, even in fairly major markets are what we old folks call 20/20's. That is to say that they're 20 something years old, make $20 thousand a year and believe they know everything there is to know about everything. Please don't misunderstand. They are bright people -- but they haven't been active in society long enough to have gained the experience they should have to make these decisions. But what, to me, should be considered one of the most important rungs on the news ladder is one of the lowest paid, and thus, becomes entry level. I heard on NPR just this morning that some group (I really don't care who or how) did some kind of big survey/study on "when you become and adult." This had to do with when you were probably married, having a family and being forced to become financially independent -- in other words, be out on your own. The answer surprized me. It was 26 years old. IF that's true, why do we have "children" (is that what you are if you're not an adult?) making these kinds of decisions? |
[QUOTE]Originally posted by ZTAMiami
. I think children nowadays have a lack of empathy overall. I think that our society is full of selfish, detached children who crave nothing but instant gratification. That is it in a nutshell.The children don't care because their parents don't care.The parents are way too busy with their own lives. I am a Daycare/Preschool Director and would guess that approximately 70% of the children we care for are there 10 hours a day or more/5 days a week.My staff and I know,that if it weren't for us,many of these children would have nobody to care for them.We know that for many we are the only nutritious meal they get.You can tell without a doubt,who is and is not their parents priority. |
ZTAMIAMI:
Do you think that parents should use less 'time outs' and start to view 'disciplinary actions' such as a swat on the behind with their hand? My mom didn't do the timeout thing with me and my sister. I got whippings and I turned out fine. My little brother, on the other hand, was a 'time out' child who grew a foot and a half taller than my mom by the time he was 15. She couldn't whip him so she would 'take away phone privileges' or 'make him do house chores'. He's worse than me and my sister combined(he was partying by the time he was 16--basketball stardom does that to you). However, when I asked my mom why she never hit him but always got onto us. . .she said that 'disciplinary actions' are looked down upon. I think that timeout can work in the instance of not sharing toys, not eatting all of your dinner, etc. However, there are times when a kid needs a couple of swats(not a beat down as some say). editted to add: How do you plan on dealing with discipline? |
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by midwesterngirl
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Our daughter worked in the daycare industry for a while, and will do just about anything to keep her daughter out of it. So, she and her husband have different days off. She spends a lot of her free time figuring out grandparents schedules (including ours) so that the baby is always with a family member. (We watch her two to three days a week) In our case, we simply decided to take a huge financial hit when our first was born so Mrs. DeltAlum could stay home with the children. It was difficult, but we managed. I'm not sure that our daughter and husband could do that on their entry level salaries in this economy. You see parenthood from a very jaded perspective, as you watch people drop their children off in your care and drive off in their matching Beemers. (No, before anyone starts, all working parents and BMW drivers aren't bad parents -- simply using a stereotype for the sake of illustration) All parents aren't like that, and I suspect your 70% number is pretty high. |
Whitechocolate:
I don't plan on hitting my daughter in order to discipline her. I don't believe "time out" actually works unless you are correcting whatever wrong the child did. I think children need to be talked to. Not screamed at or hit. What do you really learn besides fear and anger towards the parent? If a child can't trust their parent to listen to them and teach them then what kind of person do they turn out to be? I've been doing a lot of reading on parenting and discipline and while you can't go by what a book tells you, it has opened my mind to different things. I was hit quite often when I was little and you're right, I turned out just fine. But I don't think I really learned any lesson besides don't get caught. I would second guess telling my parents when I did something for fear of getting punished for it. I saw my father as not much else but a disciplinarian and the guy that gave me money. This is probably why I have so many issues with him now. I don't want to make the same mistakes with my children. |
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I was spanked probably three times in my entire childhood. Will I do it to my kids? Probably not, but it definitely kept me in line.
I think it's important to talk to your kids as they get past 5, 6, 7 years old and really explain WHY they can't do something or the repercussions of their poor actions. But after working with preschoolers I think one of the best things I learned was keep the words to a minimum. There are a few parents around here who just blow me away when their kid knocks over an entire display in my store and they go "Preston please stop running and terrorizing this store, Daddy's going to be mad and then you won't watch Bob the Builder when you get home, do you hear me???" Christ lady! NO he doesn't hear you, the ears shut off after the third word. You say "Stop." No. Stand here. Back to the original point of the thread, sometimes you look around and see the total lack of concern for others and it is really scary. The thing is, it's probably always been this way. The only thing that has made it worse is that these days, anyone can afford some sort of legal counsel and EVERYONE is quick to shout "lawsuit!" when they've been wronged. |
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hahah, i'm mad at the visual. i say give them the death look....:mad: :mad: :mad: . that's what i got when i was a kid, but usually it was followed by a quick hand in the cereal isle. i really wish my kid would do that....for real, the belt will come off. |
Starang:
Don't get me wrong. I am not going to approach discipline so passively. I just don't think that fear teaches. I think it isolates the child and makes them fearful and mistrustful. AXJules: I've seen parents who di that to. They are lazy parents. I know working full time and coming home to "deal" with the kids must be rough. The problem is they are just "dealing" and not parenting. |
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-Rudey --Getting all iambic pentameter on GC. |
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The 70% also includes the school age children who sit in a classroom all day and then come to my daycare afterwards.I personally thought that I was being generous with that percentage. Yes I am extremely jaded.It pisses me off when I find out that the same children who are waiting for me in the parking lot at 6am are the same ones who are still there at 6 or 6:30 at night when we close.My employers have often thought about staying open later but it would be those same children who stay later and later everynight.I really hate to be cynical but there simply are some parents who don't want to be bothered.There are children in my facility that my staff and I have practically raised ourselves.The interesting thing about this is,it is the children of older parents who are left for long hours in daycare.By older I mean over 25.The children of teenage parents and parents under 25 don't stay as long.Maybe things are starting to swing back around. |
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How can you expect a 2 yr old to understand 'No, stop it' followed by a mean look the people that I babysit for (BMW, Mercedes drivers) have a 3 yr old and when they say 'No' he stops, smiles, and does it again finally, after the 5th 'No' they resort to yelling and screaming at him I guess I think that often parents have no control And please keep in mind, this generation coming up If they aren't sterile from drug use or JACKASS maiming stunts they will be the teenagers/young adults while my children are growing up |
I'm so worn out with the "Mommy or Daddy gimme/I want" SELFISHNESS I am seeing in kids today...
We live in a very self centered, "narrow view" society. Look at the way some people drive..."Let me in first" or "I'm going to get in front of you first", or even, "I'm going to drive at the pace I want to because I'm in la-la-friggin land over here and you can just follow me down this one lane road where the speed limit is 50, but I want to do 25 b/c I just got a new Cadillac Escalade and I don't want it scratched!!!" That was a run on, BUT I DIGRESS! Kids and their parents today go around, not paying attention to how their behavior affects others, they just want what they want when they want it, even if it comes at the expense of others. I'll give an example: At my gym, there are 3 changing areas: Women's, Men's, and Family. The Family area is meant for ANYONE who brings a child. It's not MY fault they put it upstairs near the pool, but that's where you azz is supposed to change if you bring a child. BUT NO! I have to deal with naked little boys and girls running around, using the lounge TV and crying and screaming, because Mommy wants to soak in the whirlpool! TOUGH S#!T lady (I only use Mommy and lady cuz I haven't been in the men's room ;) ) you bring a kid to the gym, you use the other changing room! Come alone, you can use the ladies locker area....DAMMIT! I HATE THAT! But I digress... We are a narcissistic, overly comfortable, impatient, materialistic, shallow society where you are seen as more valuable and worthy as a person based on how much you earn/what you weigh/how beautiful you are/your position or title. No one truly treasures introspection, honesty, or respect anymore. Something else I noticed: we are a very lonely society. We can all talk about how we want someone in our life to love, treasured friendships, etc, but how often do you look another person in the eye when you walk down the street? We are drowning in our own loneliness and fear, but are any of us willing to be vulnerable? Even that's seen as a weakness. I wholly admit to needing others (needy and clingy are two different things). I am also afraid of being hurt. But I do try more than others I know to break thru that imaginary wall of protection we each have around ourselves.... OK, rant over... For now... |
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Yeah, I agree
And this is considering I babysit him WHILE HIS PARENTS ARE HOME Yes, folks. . .I am the 'keep him out of our hair' babysitter He totally minds me because he knows I mean business And I know that everyone in America wants their kid to be a genius But is it really necessary to sit a kid in front of a computer games to learn about shapes and colors Whatever happened to outside activities Learning your colors by watching cars pass by At 3 yrs old, I knew how to skip, find a worm after rainfall, or look for rollie pollies Kids these days can point, drag, and click But they don't know what blowing bubbles or chalking up the sidewalk is like And I think that's sad |
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oh, they do love him
they wanted to be able to give him 'a financially stable home' so they waited until she was 43 to have him and now, he exerts all of their energy though he has computer games and videos and tons of puzzles to keep him busy and he has a catcher's mitt but i'm the only one that takes him out and makes him run after the balls and i'm there every day during the summer from 5 to 9 PM(when he goes t sleep) and every weekend night during the school year from 9 to 9 PM i love the money but i feel like this kid is mine and i'm raising him |
LOL I just had a flashback to the "older parents" thread....:eek:
It can be a double edged sword...older parents are either the most attentive cause they've waited so long for a child, or they are too set in their ways and don't know quite what to do with one. These two sound like the latter. I think it also depends a lot on where you live and the general environment. If hands-off parenting is the norm, that's probably what you will do too. |
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