Hi-Jacked from DZO...
 

I didn't meant to completely hi-jack that thread with the letters deal, and I don't want to ruin our little bitch-fest about Nicole planning the wedding and naming the kids (;)) so I am bringing my hijack over here.

My only purpose in stating "Good lord - is AXO the only org that treats its new members as sisters" and "we are proud to show them off in letters" is that lately I have heard so much grumbling about older sisters not wanting to see non-initiates in letters.

If your national HQ says "no" -- then fine by me -- I ain't here to tell you how to run your business. But for AXO, Nationals says "YES - New Members ARE sisters that simply do not yet know Ritual, and they deserve to wear letters like everyone else" -- that is our national take on it. And I think that we should all be abiding by what our national org says. Like I said -- if yours says "no" -- fine by me. But I've heard a lot of members of chapters saying "new members have to earn their letters" or whatever, knowing full well that their national council says new members CAN wear letters.

So sorry to hijack the important issues of DZO, but if you want to take it up, here is your very own soapbox forum.... :p

As this pertains to DZO (hijack! hahahahaha!!) I have seen that a lot of the time locals do not allow their pledges to wear letters, because they may either not have a crest or don't have it in wearable form. They usually wear the words spelled out. One of my friends was pledging the local on campus that later became Theta Phi Alpha. She needed something to wear for colors day, and my Derby Daze shirt happened to be the right color so I loaned it to her. The sisters were really not happy when it was pointed out that she WAS wearing letters since the sororities were all listed on the shirt...

I believe most, if not all, of the NPC organizations allow their new members to wear letters. The only one I have heard otherwise about (from a reputable source ;) ) is AEPhi. There might be a few others, but I know that most of them do allow new members to wear letters before initiation.

I think a lot of chapters are just confused about their national policies. Some of them may be repeating rules from whenever they were in schools years ago, and the rules may have changed since then. Or they just might not know -- I remember a post in in Pi Phi forum where some of the girls said that Pi Beta Phi didn't allow new girls to wear letters, and then a national officer came on and said, "Actually, we do -- and if your individual chapter doesn't, we consider that hazing." (I am not trying to single out Pi Phi here because there are posts from members of ALL organizations who aren't sure whether or not their organization allows them to do this.)

Tri Delta does allow its new members to wear letters before initiation.

I think a lot of local and multicultural organizations are different, too.

we were also allowed to wear letters from the start. we however, as a pledge class decided that we didn't want to wear stitich on letters until initiation. every chapter on my campus gave the new members...bid day shirts which were screen print shirts with a snappy little phrase like "it is hard to be humble when you are king of the jungle" and the date and the chapter! as a phi, we all wore screen prints and had all kinds of cups, pencils, etc...just not the stitich on letters...

I think some of it is also campus-wide tradition. If something has built up over the years that pledges don't wear this or that, and all the groups follow it, one will probably not break it - that would make them feel more singled out or uncomfortable than not wearing stuff would.

I just got initiated into Chi Omega in April and as new members, we were allowed to wear letters. The only thing we weren't allowed to wear was the crest because we didn't know the meaning behind the symbols.

We weren't allowed to wear Greek letters, but we could wear the name spelled out, or "SDT." I didn't have a problem with it...I wouldn't feel right wearing letters that I didn't know the meaning of, but that's me. I don't see it as "earning"...it's really just a meaning that can't be revealed until initiation. It was also a real honor when we finally did get to wear them. I don't really see a problem one way or another...but I also don't feel like I was hazed because I wasn't allowed to wear letters.

Our Bid Day shirts were still really cute, though! On the front, they said, "Sigma Delta Tau Bid Day 2003," and on the back, they have this saloon-type lettering: "Sig Delts...Gettin' lucky never felt so good." ;)

Quite right - AEPhi does not allow anyone but fully initiated sisters to wear the Greek letters. The reason being, you don't know what the letters stand for. It's not dissimilar to Chi O new members not being allowed to wear/use the crest because they don't know the meaning behind the symbols.

Kappa Alpha Theta also does not allow new members to wear letters (my freshman-year roommate is a Theta and told me this).

Here's another thread on the same topic:

http://www.greekchat.com/gcforums/sh...&threadid=1320

Yup, same thing in my chapter! Our big sisters gave us our first crest so it was really special! I got my crest from my big sis for initiation and also a crest from my grandmother which was the one her big sister gave to her when she was initiated back in 1955! (she was a Chi O at Roanoke) We were allowed letters from day 1, they were on our bid day shirts!

We don't allow our new members to wear or display letters (license plate frames, etc) until they are initiated. Basically for reasons that have already been mentioned. They can wear "chi delta" spelled out tho.

Casual observation tho: I don't know how many of our sororities on campus actually let their NMs wear Letters... as in lettered shirts. (Bid Day shirts are a different story.) Within the first few weeks of school, the only sorority sisters I will see in full letters are already active members.
I do remember living in the dorms and an AXO new member lived down the hall from me and was showing me all of her new stuff... which included letters that she was supposed to wear on this certain day. She said these were her "class letters" and they were the only ones she could wear at the time.

So I guess my question is: are there groups that allow newbies to wear letters but put restrictions on it?

That is also correct. A post in the Pi Phi forum was about new members and letters. Many were under the assumption that new members could only wear the words spelled out. I am glad that new members are not prohibited from wearing letters, but when I was a new member it was a personal choice not to wear letters till I was initiated.

I know my chapter was under the impression we couldn't wear letters until we were initiated. We thought it was a Central Office policy. On the up side, now I don't feel so bad about putting that bumper sticker on my car on bid day. :p

Thanks, S&S for the link.

I was simply stating this based on the reaction to my comments in the DZO thread. I felt bad for hijacking the DZO thread, although it was unintentional, so I came over here to clear things up and let the DZO thread go on with business as usual.

As for everyone's comments -- I understand that not every org allows the members to wear letters, and that's cool with me. I was just stating that we (in National orgs - or orgs with multiple chapters) should KNOW where our HQ stands on this issue. If HQ says its okay, then chapter members SHOULD NOT be saying otherwise....the same goes for all the rules! We all know if a member (even one) of one org does something stupid, that the National org takes the heat for it. And to come out in public and say "you have to earn the right to wear letters" or the like, knowing that your nationals does not feel that way, makes your org look bad in the same respect.

My question is this.....don't a lot of groups have secret meaning behind their name? I am NOT asking you "what does your name mean" -- PLEASE do not misread that. It is rhetorical -- just saying that IF your org has a secret meaning behind its name, then what would be the difference if you wear the letters, or the actual words spelled out?

So I guess my thing is this -- do what you do, but make sure you know that is the acceptable way of doing things per HQ (for the national/multiple chapter groups). Peace out!

Sometimes it's not a national/international policy...sometimes chapters decide individually whether ther want NMs to wear letters. When I joined my chapter, NMs were a allowed to wear any letters...now, they restrict the wearing of Block Lettered Shirts to initiated members, but NMs can still wear date party shirts or other chapter shirts.

OMG,
this is so mundane and laughable!

Geeze, why not wear the letters to show who you have affiliated with!

Dah, this is a form of advertising and marketing for your Org.!!

I was at homecoming one time and the smallest Fraternity on Campus were all together wearing letters! NO ONE ELSE WAS!!! I was more impressed with them than My Own Fraternity!

The new Associates may not know what the letters mean, but it looks like you have more members than you might have Initiates!;)

Maybe this is just a girl thing tho:confused:

Our New Members are allowed to wear letters on bid day t-shirts, homecoming shirts, and similar, but they don't wear lavaliers or block letter shirts until after they're initiated. Actually, they recieve both their block letters and their lavalier the day of initiation.

I was told as a pledge specifically to wear letters. We were told that they were advertising for our org. However, We didn't get our engraved disc necklaces until the night before initiation. But those are big sister gifts, and it's just kind of a chapter tradition to wait.

I understand that completely and have no problem with that.

I would, however, have a huge problem if an AXO came on here and said "In our chapter, new members aren't allowed to wear block/stitch letters until after initiation -- they have to earn them" -- because I know that that is not what HQ says. I am saying that IF your HQ/Nationals (if you are a part of such org) says what should be done, then that should be the rule period.

I think the big problem is that often times chapter members do not know what their national policy is (if there is one) and they make statements to the contrary, which may give the org a bad rap. We get reminded from HQ about this through our CLC visits which are required -- ie, even though we aren't breaking any rules, we still have to be reminded (kinda like the dumb "coffee is served hot and will burn you" signs at McD's!)

That's a completely valid point. But, I think it's all in how it's presented...If a chapter said, "we prefer our new members not to wear block letters/lavalier because it's a special honor that you receive as a sister," it would come off a lot better than "you're not a sister yet, you have to earn your letters."

My chapter
 

We don't mind nm's wearing the letters, the only real restriction is that non-initated members can't wear the crest, not knowing what it is they are wearing. The moment on bid day when you are "in" Delta Gamma, we shower the new members with gifts, including a bid day t-shirt, so they immediatly start wearing the letters....most girls don't really get "sewn on" letters and their lavilers until initation when their big sis's give them to them.....
just the way it is here! :-)
Greek love and mine
*mandie*

Why is it considered hazing to not allow your new members to wear the Greek letters even though they don't know the meaning behind it but it is not hazing to not allow the members to wear the crest because they don't the meaning behind it?

There is certain things you can't wear in girl scouting until you go through certain steps. I just think sororities and fraternities have gotten way too sensitive...

A thought... Perhaps because the Greek letters are, well, Greek. Assuming that by "spelled out" you mean "spelled out with English letters", then maybe that's the thing that makes the difference.

Dunno, my only theory... never heard an official explanation on this one.

PM_Mama, is that a national rule that your phis aren't allowed to wear letters? Some of my best friends are Phi Mus down here and when they were still Phis, I remember them wearing letters.

PMmama~ Phis ARE allowed to wear letters. it might be that it's local tradition for your chapter not to have the phis to wear letters, but in mine we are told at our first Phi meeting that there is no limitations on wearing blocks or any kind of letters. members traditionally dodn't wear a lavalier until their bigs give them their first one after initiation.

Tri Sigma as a whole does allow new members to wear letters. However, my chapter doesn't allow stitched letters to be worn until after initiation. Our new members do have shirts with screen-printed letters on them that they can wear when the initiated sisters are wearing letters. It's a campus-wide tradition at Longwood University that new members can't wear stitched letters or lavalieres or crests or anything like that. Nobody ever felt hazed by it though. Longwood's NPC orgs also have a tradition of initiated sisters wearing jumpers in their colors (as far as I know Longwood is the ONLY school that does this). It started of course with the original Longwood Four, and other sororities adopted it as they were chartered there (for example, ADPi wasn't founded there, but they wear the jumpers). The jumpers are another thing that new members can't wear until they're initiated... but personally I didn't even like wearing it AFTER I was initiated :p

This is kinda what I was getting at. Our delphia program is a bit of work and so receiving letters is kind of the icing on the cake at the end of the semester. They worked throughout the semester getting their tests done and so on, and then Hooray, you get to wear letters at the end of it all. The stiched kind that is.
The only time delphias can wear letters is when the rest of the house is... like for an athletic event or our philanthropy or something. Our "sport shirt" has letters on it and they can wear that then. But actually, now that I think abou it, many of the shirts that we pass out to new members and the rest of the house don't have letters on it anyway. Some do, but not all. So newbies can wear and represent the organization still.

I remember looking enviously at pledges of other chapters on my campus who were allowed to wear their letters. I hope my chapter is now aware that pledges are allowed to wear/use items with our letters on them. I think it's great PR, and it makes you feel like you're a part of the organization.

PiPhiGirl2005, welcome to GC! What's your chapter?

Does your HQ say its okay for your chapter (and others) to make this distinction? Do they know that you don't allow them to wear letters?

See, AXO would have a big huge problem with this -- if I saw a post on here from an AXO chapter saying "AXO as a whole allows them to wear letters, but my chapter doesn't" then I'm here to say that they would be getting an email about it.

Don't get me wrong SSS1365 -- I am not trying to call you out on this, as you say that it is tradition for the campus -- I am simply saying that as an Alpha Chi, I would be greatly disturbed seeing this from another one of my chapters. I just believe that for Alpha Chi, the rules that HQ passes down are not negotiable...period. Even when they seem to be petty and out-dated. I guess that being a CA though reminds me that I am responsible for the actions of my chapter -- and I don't want to have to explain myself to National Council about hazing or any other questionable situations.

PM Mama -- you put the perfect example out that I was referring to -- chapter members should be told what is/is not allowed by HQ. That way people aren't out saying the wrong things where others (such as PNM's) will hear them and possibly misinterpret the policies of a particular chapter.

Peachy -- I have heard from others in orgs that the actual name of the sorority has a secret representation...not just the letters themselves. That's all I was basing that question on. I understand your reply, but I was thinking more about the groups that have a secret representation to their name (spelled out).

I was always told that we can't wear our crest as a shirt EVER. We were always told that we cant display it in a novelty sort of way? Is that wrong???? SOMEONE HELP!!!

That might have been my post. In my chapter, we do not wear the greek letters (only letters spelled out) until we initiate - for the sole reason that our members do not know what "Pi Beta Phi" means until they are initated - and when I put my letters on for the first time and finally knew what the meaning behind them was, it was such a great feeling!!!

I see what you're saying, but I think my chapter's tradition has more to do with the campus tradition. Honestly I don't know if our national knows, but I can say that visiting consultants never questioned why the new members weren't wearing stitched letters.

Personally, like so many others on this thread have said, I wouldn't have wanted to wear the letters as a new member. It would make receiving your first letters from your big less meaningful. And I'm pretty sure everyone in my chapter feels/felt the same way. I mean, it was pretty exciting to look forward to getting letters. If I had been wearing them the whole time it would have been like "So what? Big deal." Just my personal opinion. :) Also, I don't think wearing letters that you don't know the meaning of makes much sense. And we are NOT supposed to reveal the meaning until initiation. Like I said, our new members had screen-printed letters that from a distance looked EXACTLY like the stitched letters.

Then what's the difference between the stitched letters and the ones that look like stitched letters? :confused:

I agree with that, I don't see the difference... but I think we were trying to not be saying that they couldn't wear letters at all, without being the only group on campus that was allowing them to wear stitched letters. And it still means something when they do get the stitched letters after initiation :)

No you're right... No crest on shirts :)

Funny thing -- we are not allowed to drink an alcoholic beverage out of anything that has our crest on it.....so WHY for formal each year, would the chair order wine glasses engraved with our crest?! :confused: I have a matching set....water anyone? LOL!

The only shirt I have is from my big and it is a long sleeve white tee (nice and heavy weight) with a crest patch sewn on the upper left front (like where a pocket would be I guess). Its a great shirt and I love it for those chilly spring to summer or fall to winter evenings where its still warm out, but just a chill in the air.

In the china/silver cabinet at our chapter house, we have a bunch of mugs and glasses with the crest - it's more like, anyone want to dust these? I also own a GPhiB wine flute (no crest or letters) but it seems weird to drink out of it, and a SigEp glass complete with crest. My game plan is to fill them with those cute little marbles.

We are allowed to wear our crest, and some of my sisters and I own knee-length tan raincoats that we're thinking of getting it embroidered on. We were also considering getting it put on pink or white polo shirts. The colors of our crest are kind of hard to match with things!