Huh? Could SigEp actually lose their "entire assets"?
 

http://www.clarionledger.com/news/0305/21/m03.html
The news says Sigma Phi, but then names the Sigma Phi Epsilon Alumni Association. Also, the SigEp National website says that that school is their Mississippi Beta. And does anyone know how bad this could get? i.e. Anyone heard from their Nationals how likely this lawsuit is going to go to court?

"In addition to Sigma Phi, the Mississippi Beta Sigma Phi Epsilon Alumni Association is named in the lawsuit. The lawsuit seeks the corporate death penalty, the total assets of the national fraternity."

OK brothers and sisters -- it's time to be blunt again.

This is damn scary! But it isn't a possibility that hasn't been brought up here before.

Heaven help us all if this "corporate death penalty" is really imposed. The TOTAL assets of the national fraternity.

That means it will be gone. Over. Kaput. Finished.

It doesn't matter that drinking isn't only a Greek problem. It didn't even happen on campus!

Those of you who fight dry or damp housing -- those of you who disagree with your fraternity or sorority "dry" policy -- those of you who say this is a right of passage -- ARE YOU LISTENING?

If the fraternity loses this suit, it is GONE!

God forbid that it will happen -- but it could.

Then, the next time there is a Greek related fatal accident, another fraternity could be gone. Before long the whole system is gone.

So, for those of you who think that all of us who have been concerned about Risk Management and all of the things that go with it are "crying wolf" -- read the article on the other end of the link above.

If Greek Life is going to survive, we have to save it!

The only way to do that is to moderate our activities and obey the law.

Shit!

I hope that some manner of sanity prevails in the courts, and this doesn't happen -- but it easily could.

What an ugly wake up call.

The scary thing is, without national organizations, then Greeks will really be a different type of creature!

No national programming, no national dry initiatives and best of all no one looking over your shoulder that says hazing is bad!

The legal system could end up doing INjustice here. A few individuals will come out with large settlements, the lawyers will get their cuts..

Does anyone think fraternities and sororities will disappear from the face of the Earth? Nope. We'll just have new ones that can do basically what they want, a la Sigma Chi Omega.

I find it profoundly disturbing that this grown man drove drunk killing two people and served only six months in prison. That is ridiculously lenient. :mad:

I wish I could agree, Snake. But no organization will be able to afford liability insurance. The nationals barely can now.

The system would most likely die.

Re: Huh?
 

According to their national website, Mississippi State IS the Miss Beta chapter of the Sigma Phi Epsilon fraternity. This lawsuit could have unbelievable consequences for SigEp

Holy Sh*t! :eek:

See this is why everyone is paying so damn much for insurance! If you ran in ins. company, would you want to write a policy for a group like that? Hell no! I don't know about the rest of your organizations, but I can tell you that in one recent fiscal year, SAE nationally paid on the order of three quarters of a million dollars ($750,000!!!) in insurance claims. Nearly all of them were likely to have been related to risk MISmanagement issues. As a response, the national office has closed over 30 chapters since 1990 (17 of those just since 2000) for just this reason. They've also created some seriously stiff penalties for chapters who do stupid isht like this. I could NOT imagine being the person responsible for the death of even a national fraternity that's been in existance for a century and a half, much less the death of another person! Who could live with themselves after that?!?

All of our respective organizaitons' founders are probably rolling in their graves over what some people are turning their dreams into!

Many NPC sororities seem to have taken a much more proactive approach to this problem. It seems like their HQ's are always looking over their shoulder. I'm afraid that it will eventually come to that with us as well if insurance doesn't kill us first.

Sigma Nu has actually begun an interesting experiment. Our chapters have to turn in paperwork each year that proves we are participating in national programming. It also requires that we get a certain number of points by attaining specified goals (and providing documentation) in order to remain in good standing.

Sororities have taken a very proactive stance in regards to drinking. We have tons of rules about social events, and it seems as if most sororities are serious about following them.

If fraternities are going to move to a more strict alcohol policy, then sororities need to make a conscious effort to help them. I don't know how many times I've seen or heard, "Well, we can't drink in our house, so let's go over to the guys' place!" If a woman was killed after drinking at a fraternity house or event, there is nothing to stop her family from pursuing this "corporate death penalty" or huge lawsuit against a fraternity.

I know there was a case similar to this, I hope this is the same one. A fraternity had a party, drunk driving on the part of members resulted in deaths, and everyone in the chapter EXCEPT the one guy who voted against having the party is being sued. Our national consultant told us all about it...does anyone else know anything?

Call me a cynic, but I think Sig Ep has enough $$$ to pay these families off if worst comes to worst. If not the fraternity itself, they also have lots of famous alums that would probably be willing to help the cause (check out the list on their site). Not to mention one of the alums of this chapter is a justice on the Mississippi Supreme Court.

They will tie this up in court for years, possibly decades (they also have enough $$$ to do that) and eventually the family will give in, withdraw their suit and take a settlement.

Sorry, I just don't see this as the immediate trauma that everyone else does. Maybe I watch too much Law & Order.

Although the a-hole driver should definitely be spending the rest of his life in prison instead of 6 months.

That may be one of the only hopes -- the families accepting an out of court settlement. If they don't, the alumni -- wealthy, famous, powerful or not -- will not be a factor.

The suit is for the "total assets" of the fraternity. That means everything -- probably even buildings they might own. Everything.

And, if these people even come close to winning, everyone in the future will try the same thing until some jury will probably make that kind of award.

Consider the tobacco company suit this week -- I think it was in Florida -- where a judge had to overturn a jury verdict that would have sent the company into bancrupcy.

I think we've got to take this one very seriously. There have been a lot of excellent points made above. I'm afraid this will have a profound effect on all of our organizations.

:eek: I definately agree that this is scary. People nowadays [and their lawyers] get way over their heads in lawsuits and it makes me sick. Like DeltAlum said, I believe this will definately have an effect on all our organizations and it makes me so mad that everyone suffers because of a couple of dumb people. :(

What happened at the chapter summer rush party was definately NOT OK, but I don't understand why they are going after the entire organization and alum. association?

The lawyer said there was "proof" that the national fraternity knew that the chapter was serving alcohol to minors as far back as years before.. my question is, how does he prove that?

I guess I am really naiive in thinking how things work at the inter/national level, but if a school or even the nationals knew about underage drinking, wouldn't they let the chapter know they were watching? :confused: :(

gawd, this is bad. I think the lawyer are using "entire asset" as a leverage when it come down to negotiating.

EXACTLY.

No question. But what if they win? Or, what if they settle for a couple million dollars?

I've got a pretty good idea what Delt is worth, and we have one of the highest dollar values in the fraternity world. We couldn't take many multi-million dollar suits.

And then it keeps coming back to Liability Insurance Costs. As SAEactive pointed out above, his national organization paid out three quarters of a million dollars in Risk Management claims in a recent year. That's not at all uncommon, and the sad fact is that somewhere above 90% of those kinds of claims NIC wide are alcohol related.

You can argue the merits of this suit ad-naseum, but the glaring fact is that we've got a big problem that we aren't solving.

A little off-topic, but just a suggestion: Please give threads more specific titles than "huh." I know I skipped over it because it because of the topic, and I only sought it out because DeltAlum suggested we all look at it.

Back on track: Even if the fraternity manages to squeak through intact, it is going to set a dangerous precedent. A lot of GLOs do not have the rich and famous alums or the financial resources to recover from this. But once it's been proven that they can be taken to the cleaners, they will be, and some of them won't survive.

It is sad but absolve ourselves of liability here we are going to have to be absolutely squeaky clean perfect. If a freshman has a beer in his room, one at the Mu Mu house, and then 20 more at his friend Bob's apartment and then dies from alcohol poisoning, the fraternity will end up bearing the liability, fairly or not, because it's the only one with money to be gotten.

And I totally agree with MoxieGrrl that the sororities need to support the fraternities here.

I definately agree.

There are a lot of level-headed Greeks here on GC, however, there are also thousands of other Greeks out there, and the sad fact is that not everyone thinks about these kinds of things when they are doing things that end up being risk mis-management issues.

Without saying this too weirdly, not everyone joins GLO's for the right reasons.

When my boyfriend and I made a road-trip to my first university (his alma mater, and also home to his fraternity chapter) I met several new guys whose primary reason to join a fraternity was to party party party.. and it's people like that that end up causing problems, although maybe not intentionally. Thankfully though, in that chapter the brothers are VERY good at being brothers. There are always sober people (read: more than one) who make sure no one leaves home drunk even if they just had one sip.

Ok, I'm ranting now, but my point is, not everyone stops to think of what the consequences might be of their actions (driving drunk, etc.) - whether it be on themselves, other people, their own chapter, their own inter/national organization, or even if there will be consequences that will effect everyone's organizations.

It probably sounds real grandma-ish ... but that's just the way I feel,and I definately agree w/ Moxie about the sororities helping out.

Maybe. On the other hand, if the house was wet the students walked to the house and then walked home they would wouldn't have had to drive in the first place and they might be alive today.

There is a similar case going to trial. A 26 year old Penn grad visited campus. He spent the day drinking at a lacrosse game. After the game he went several bars with friends. He stopped by his fraternity house later that night. At some point during the night he fell down a flight of steps at the house and died.

http://www.dailypennsylvanian.com/vn.../3ec4b4ee45050

That's not true. I am in a local sorority and we follow school policy when it comes to hazing. Kent State University has strict rules about hazing that are not easy to avoid. While going through my new member period (the term "pledge" is even considered hazing) within my sorority if I felt even remotely uncomfortable during the process it was considered hazing. However at no time during that period did I feel uncomfortable. In fact, my sisters were very loving and respectful and still are.

Also, though locals can abide by many of their own rules such as being able to change their colors or GPA requirement to get in, remember that all nationals started off as locals. Please don't look at "Sorority/Fraternity Life" and think that's what locals are all about. In fact, the president of Phi Gamma Pi and I having an on-going joke that if MTV were to ever put us on "Sorority Life," they'd have to create their own drama because we don't have any.

This looks like the family is aware that it's a housing code/safety issue, but the dumbass school decided to turn it into an alcohol issue. If he was killed because he fell down rickety and unsafe stairs - drunk OR sober - they have every right to sue the fraternity or school (depending on who is responsible for the upkeep of the house). That the school would use his death to impose prohibition, however, is nothing short of exploitative and sickening.

I think what everyone is referring to (please feel free to correct me - gently!) is that by being gone as ANY official entity....

We'd most likely see a movement to underground fraternities and sororities which are even more prone to running into trouble.

Yea, I think LXAAlum has it right...at least that is how I understood it.

I think UPenn is going to take the blame.. Here is a portion of a feedback post at the end of the article.



(1) The University had a management agreement with Fiji pursuant to which the University would maintain the upkeep of the house in many regards, including the "safety" of the house. This agreement was in effect at that time. Some people have claimed that the brothers/the fraternity is responsible for not taking care of what the University gave them; wrong. Penn was under contract to maintain the house and Penn owned the house. It was akin to a dormitory. (2) Penn was aware of the problems with the stairs, as admitted in a number of memoranda over a span of many years (including one months before Mike died). (3) Both the steps and the handrailing on the stairs violated the safety codes of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania. Penn was also responsible for these violations.

The Sororities
 

Okay, everyone is saying that the sororities should do what they can as well, but we already are.

Remember Alcohol-Free 2000? I don't know the exact number, but at least 16 NPC groups passed resolutions banning their chapters from co-sponsor events at fraternity houses where alcohol is present. Some groups went a step further, and banned events in houses that are not dry, period, whether or not alcohol will be at the specific event.

This was done to support dry housing initiatives amongst the fraternities. It doesn't work, for the following two reasons:

1. Not all NPC groups passed it. Therefore, on some campuses, most of the sororities can still go have social events in the frat houses. Obviously, this creates a large divide between the dry houses and the ones who can have the girls over.

2. Chapters are always finding ways to get around it. You can't have an ABC-XYZ social at the ABC house, but ABC can throw a party and all the XYZ's can happen to attend.

I am including a list of the groups, as well (please correct me if I have any wrong):

Passed Alcohol-Free 2000:
AXO
ADPi
AEPhi
AGD
AOPi
APhi
AZD
ChiO
DDD
DG
DZ
GPhiB
KAT
KD
KKG
Phi Mu
PBP

Did not pass:
PSS
SK
SDT

Unsure (not on my campus):
ASA
AST
DPhiE
SSS
TPA
ZTA

I don't think we meant the sororities on a national level. AZD, like most of the groups, was one of the ones that voted for the resolution. The issue is the local chapter sisters. Just because our nationals support alcohol-free Greek life does not mean we as members live that philosphy.

Example: Mixers are alcohol free. So after we leave the mixer at the boys' house, we all go home and change clothes, go back over to the house, and drink. It's "not an event any more," we say. Bet your insurance it is!

Unfortunately, the argument doesn't hold water. There have been a number of instances, including one at my alma mater, where someone got wasted at the house, then drove soemwhere and was in an accident -- fortunately not a fatal one. In addition, there are a lot of members who don't live at the house, but will party there and then have to go home somehow.

As to the situation in PA, they really are apples and oranges, and I agree that the university is gonna get nailed for not keeping the building safe. And they deserve it if everything we read in the articles are true.

oh my god...........

What?

We can't let SigEp just die!!! If we do, then who is next? Delts, Pikes, could even be OX. WE must all band together adn fight this. How? I don't know, there are law school types on here though. Tell us what to do and we'll do it!

I think the point about sororities babysitting their chapters was a very valid one - and fraternities need to do the same. I certainly have a high opinion of SigEp, I would have married a brother were he still alive, but they need to rethink their risk management policies. Their WI-Theta chapter is amazing and a wonderful group of gentlemen, but I truly cannot say the same for many of their other chapters. I think this is true for all organizations - HQs need to keep close watch on chapters, or one bad seed, like this one, could ruin the entire fraternity.

And I'm :mad: about the person only getting 6 months - I almost had my DL pulled for a year for getting two speeding tickets, but driving drunk? That doesn't matter at all.

I agree completely that, if they want to survive, fraternities are going to have to adopt rules and practices similar to those of sororities when it comes to risk management. Sororities did what they had to do to counteract the negative Greek stereotypes that started to take over in the 1970s -- fraternities, for the most part, did not. And now when you look around, 90 percent of the risk management violations probably are related to fraternities, not sororities. Same goes for the hazing violations. Just check this forum for proof -- how many articles are there about a sorority getting sued for hazing or alcohol violations?

The sorority system has actively tried to change and counteract the stereotypes, and they've done a decent job of it. I wouldn't say that the sorority system is in jeopardy. However, the fraternity system is, and sororities may end up going down with it if it goes.

i don't think it is just the attitudes and policies of fraternities that need to change....it is college-aged students in general. my freshmen year in college, there was a rally on campus....protesting the fact that the college was cracking down on underage drinking. they were actually hoping that the college would ignore that this was happening. the people in charge of this were NOT GREEK at all. i think "kids" think this is a rite of passage....it is the time to get drunk and be care free. i am not sure if having "dry houses" will make a difference. people in abc fraternity will have a party at an off campus house. they will try the "it was not an event" excuse, but legally the fraternity will probably be implicated. should fraternities/ sororities be held accountable for things that happen in residences of their members? they can monitor what happens in "chapter" houses, but how can they monitor what happens in every single member's residence?

(Off the main topic, but worth mentioning.)

That's true, but to be absolutely fair about it, the Risk Management materials I get from the company that administers the self-insurance for us and about twenty other fraternities indicates that a fairly substantial amount of the claims for property damage at fraternity houses are caused by sorority and other women who attend parties and other events. Again, most are alcohol related.

Of course that's one reason fraternities are in such dire straits insurance wise and sororities aren't.

Hey all,
Sorry about the crappy title to this thread, I was tired and just made it a quick post. Finals time and all.

With regards to things like this and other lawsuits from families, this is now what we have to deal with. Fraternities have had to change before, they are going to have changing now if we want them to survive.

Wow dude, wow. There are greek orgs out there that don't belong to a national organization and they are a different type of creature, some or worse and some are better believe it or not. Just because an org doesn't have "national guidance" doesn't mean they can't be given direction or guidance in issues relating to dry housing, hazing and so on. Many locals have been thriving, some longer than some national chapters.


As for the new fraternities/sororites comment, you mean to tell me that because an org breaks from a national they are new? Nah, that's not the case at all......as for the Sigma Chi Omega, you can't even tell me that national chapters don't behave in a similar manner. If they didn't we'd never hear about hazing at certain chapters of certain nationals. Oh but we hear about it all the time...all the time. There are chapters that are local and national that feel they can do whatever they want.

What makes Sigma Chi Omega any different than Sigma Nu at Duke, Sigma Nu at Indiana or Sigma Nu at Radford?

Regarding ktsnake's post, I do not think he's saying locals are bad, and I certainly don't think he is trying to start a local vs. national war as to who is "better".

I think maybe what he was trying to say is that national GLO's have to "answer" to a governing body if they are doing something wrong. And it is also helpful that national GLO's have guidance and assistance with their individual chapters do get into a rut.

If something like this lawsuit did end up happening, entire organizations could possibly be targeted next. Fraternities and sororities will probably always exist whether they have national guidance or not, and like LXAAlum mentioned on page 2 of this thread, it would probably make GLO's go underground which opens up a new can of worms.

ktsnake, please feel free to correct me if I mis-interpreted your post.

Laws...
 

As much as this sucks, I would like to point out how redicilous the liability system is. You can close down a company because a handful of people made bad decisions?

Hmmm . . . mush as I admire and respect you DeltaAlum and LXAAlum (you two related :p) I have to respectfully disagree with the thrust of your arguments here.

This is a random incident. I am not sure if there really is a good message or warning that is different than we have already gotten.

There is no real pertinent warning here unless its to shut down all social activities.

Thank you. In a way, you've made part of my point.

This message has been delivered before. But not enough people listened to it.

What makes this situation different is that the plaintiff and lawyers are not going for $1.5 million or $2 million -- they want everything, which will effectively kill the fraternity.

And now that they've paved the way, they won't be the last to try.

If they win, the repurcussions could be absolutely devastating.

By the way, did you ever find your little friend?