Has the tradition of Legacies outgrown its usefulness?
 

Just like the title says, do you think that the system of giving legacies preference has become more of a nuisance than a help?

With the recent threads about cutting legacies, and conversation that I had last weekend with a date, I have begun to question if we need to honor the legacy system like in the past.

Someone described the legacy system to me early on in my Greek experience as "well you were good enough to become a member, so we'll assume your relatives are too." Now this may not be even close to being right, but I cant' come up with anything more profound. I assume that at one time, it was used to have a constant pool of members...who would turn down an automatic invitation, but today with so many people who are interested in Greek Life, this theory no longer seems worth it.

The only other reason I could come up with was to inspire alums to begin donating again if they had a new relative in the organization...

For me, if the system is "well your relative was good, so we'll give you a chance", then I have to think that legacies who are not in the same generation (ie mother/daughter, grandfather/grandson) are iffy at best, b/c we all know people with cool parents but the kids are absolutely worthless to society. Plus GLO's have changed so much in the course of 25 years, let alone 50.

If it were up to me, I'd say that the only legacies worth honoring are those that are between siblings. Even then, in my own experience this is not a good assurance of character or worthiness.

Does anyone have opinions or thoughts?

I think a legacy has the potential to be a better member (as long as their relatives were good members). They have a family connection with the organization that will last longer than their time with the chapter. This will theoretically in turn make both the legacy and the person that is their connection closer to the chapter and the organization.

I'm sure there are financial considerations as well.

Personally I'm in favor of it. Being a chapter founder I'd be pissed if my son didn't make the cut:D

in our chapter we have 3 legacies. 2 of them are chapter legacies. however, this year we cut 2 freshmen who were Beta legacies (not from our chapter but thats not that important). we give them a shot if we run into them or are recommended to rush them. Its tradition I guess. I am a big fan because its really cool to see a 70 year old guy come back to his fraternity house and hangout with his grandson and talk about the old days and whatnot. I also think that connection with past generations is important for fraternities. we dont give out bids to guys just because they are legacies but they do get special consideration

My understanding of legacies is that they are more of a consideration to the member, not the relative rushing.

Our chapter has not had a single legacy. But at the same time I like the idea. We give so much to our chapters, I think it is consideration to the alum to give their relative a chance. It isn't guarenteeing bids so the chapter still has a choice.

There was a girl looking at Beloit, and it turns out her mom was an AST from out east. The idea that the daughter would like to wear the same letters is very neat. To get the same meaning out of something is powerful. Think about how much you love your organization, now share that with someone you love, your family. I think it could give the organization more meaning. We are about creating family and why not extend that to blood lines when possilbe. I think it can help strengthen the ties in that family but also for the chapter to alumnae. We all struggle with that.

That is my opinion, but like I said, we've never had a legacy so...

From my experience, legacies tend to be more important at big/competetive Greek Life school because they give you an extra edge. From my experience, legacies at smaller/less competetive school will give their legacy GLO a closer look but will often not feel as pressured to join that group.

i definitely agree with LeslieAGD. i'm a legacy (although not a chapter legacy). i didn't go through formal rush and didn't have my mom send in a rec for me or anything. i go to a really small school and knew the women in my chapter before they offered me a bid, and a lot of them had no idea i was a legacy until after i had pledged. in some ways i think this is good, because i never had to wonder if they took me only because i was a legacy. i knew that they wanted me for me. i have also seen legacies at our school go to a different house, just because they fit in better there. sometimes i think the pressure on legacies to join the same house can be pretty great and they may end up somewhere that they'd rather not be.

I don't think the tradition has outgrown its usefulness...it's just that there are so many more legacies than there are spots at some schools.

However, sometimes parents put pressure on without realizing it...one of our sisters that was a non-chapter legacy (her mom went to school in Michigan) pledged us, and she is a sweet girl, but I think she might have been happier someplace else.

I honestly don't think it's about the rushee. I think it is about the parent and their money or influence within the org.

That's why I don't think the system will disappear. Imagine some of these parents who are determined their kid will be XYZ too and how upset they will be if Johnny or Suzy will lose that extra edge.

I think it's really only a problem at large, primarily southern schools. Although I've been an alumna for quite a fews years, I remember being so excited about the 2 or 3 that came through each year. I don't know know if that number has gone up recently.

I like the legacy considerations. In NO way is this a guarantee for a bid, but, I've seen too many legacies that were OUTSTANDING members - they seem to have more commitment in most instances than non-legacy members (especially if their relative was a very active member of his chapter - could me more pressure or expectations, not sure) - just an opinion from direct observations.

Also, what is more moving emotionally than to see a father, grandfather, or uncle, witnessing their legacy go through Ritual? I've seen grown men reduced to tears many times as they watch their son (I know I will become a complete basket case if either of my sons decide to join LXA!), grandson, or nephew learn all about the fraternity at initiation time.

In fact, I'll be seeing this personally TONIGHT at an initiation where we are having a legacy initiated, and his uncle will be in attendance.

I love the idea of legacies. As greeks our organizations are steeped in tradition, and what better way to carry on tradition than through our children?

I'm happy that my girls are legacies of two extremely strong NPC organizations, although it annoys me that my (non-greek, clueless about greek life) husband equates the very word "legacy" with the Kent Dorfman character from "Animal House" and wonders how being a legacy could possibly be considered a good thing :rolleyes:

Not wher I go to school. We LOVE legacies, and only have a few going through rush at any given year.

The idea of legacies getting some extra consideration is still a good one.

As I understand it, most NPC sororities' legacy rules call for legacies to be automatically invited back to the second round of parties during formal rush. After that, they can be released, but the chapter must be able to justify it (and some NPC sororities set that bar very high). If they get to pref, they're pretty much guaranteed a bid if they want it.

I don't see a problem with the automatic invite to round 2; it gives the sorority members and the legacy a second chance to meet each other, and maybe they will "click" if they didn't during round 1.

I do believe it should be easier to release someone who is obviously not a good fit after that point; it shouldn't be as silly a reason as "well, her socks didn't match" but you shouldn't have to present proof that she has a criminal record or anything.

As far as legacies at pref automatically going on the first bid list, I disagree if it means that a lot of great non-legacies get crowded out because the number of legacies is close to or greater than quota. But if there are only a few legacies relative to quota, the legacies should go on the first list.

For non-NPC sororities and fraternities, I don't really know enough about the rush/intake process to comment, except to say that I don't like the idea of legacies being guaranteed bids (a la Kent Dorfman) - just because your dad was an XYZ at University A 25 years ago, doesn't mean you're a good fit with XYZ at University B now.

I think this is a great point. Sometimes, you just didn't meet the right rusher in round 1, or it was the last party of the night and everyone was tired, etc.

brother/sister legacies
 

I was reading this and I noticed something that was missing..maybe its just us but..We give legacy preference to somone's biological sisters as well. AND..legacy is something that is very hard to get around..its not a simple thing to cut a legacy they are pretty much guareented a bid. So far as i know this hasn't been a problem...I think its nice. However, to keep things in perspective i'm from a small, not so greek friendly school.

Re: brother/sister legacies
 

Well this is from our policy on legacies....
"Special consideration is defined as being invited to all invitational parties before the Preference party unless the chapter has determined that the legacy is definitely not a prospective member or the legacy has chosen not to accept an invitation to return to a party."

i know my chapter only has usually just 2 parties, so if we had any legacies they'd be invited to the second one anyway....Of course, this leads back to the problem first stated....is this stringing them along if they don't get invited to pref and/or bidded?

I think it is...but I guess it's left to the sisters to decide(which means they should make a slight extra effort to get to know her so they can make an informed decision and be prepared to defend it to their advisor, alum and relative)

We usually have a good handful of legacies come through during formal rush... I'm not so sure I would want to be a legacy through our rush becuase often times chapters assumer "oh, she's a legacy to ZTA so she'll wanna be a ZTA..." or whatever, and they dont get a fair chance with the other chapters. Also, some girls who know they wouldnt be greek otherwise rush the chapter that they're a legacy of and get a bid becuase they are a legacy, but they dont fit in at all-- the sisters and pledges notice it, other greeks notice it, but they never seem to...

I think legacies are great. It would be awesome if my son joined Theta Chi anywhere, but especially here, because my name is on the charter, and he could look up and see my name there. But I definetly want family members to join.

How old is your son?

LOL I don't have a son. I'm only a juinor in college. I meant hypothetically.

Ohhhhhhhhh! You said it so matter-of-factly...I figured you were planning ahead. Obviously too far ahead! :o ;) :p

I think Legacy's are a wonderful thing and it can be beautiful to get to wear your mom's pin and everything but I am a true example of the fact that being a Legacy doesn't make a difference in some people's choice. I am a phi mu legacy. Third generation....My mom and grandmother were both phi mus. Everyone just naturally expected me to join my chapter of phi mu and those girls offered me a lot of hospitality during recruitment however that is not where I felt the most comfortable. My mother was happy with my decision because she saw how happy I was.

Anyways, that's just my story. Also as a side note, the phi mu girls didn't pressure me at all. They knew it was my decision.

-MLK

I do think that the Legacy question needs to be explored. Let's face it, 100 years ago, not too many people (women especially) went to college. Their children became legacies, and all was good. The same with their children, and the next generation. We once had a FIVE generation legacy go through Recruitment, and trust me, even though she really didn't want to go Greek, and wasn't exactly lovable, we had to extend her a bid - but that's a whole 'nuther story.

However, just like a family tree, legacies started to expand. If (as in my original example) one Greek has two legacies, and each of them have two legacies, and each of them have two legacies - that's eight legacies right there. Now multiply that by the original 30 people in a chapter, and you have 180 legacies - with a quota of 60. Ouch!

I don't have an answer to this, but I think this is an issue that truly needs to be discussed more fully. The number of legacies are only going to increase as years go by, and somehow, they should be offered some sort of courtesy. Granted, many legacies will prefer another house, but I do think we need to discuss how to show courtesy to legacies without hurting anyone else.

Suggestions?

Yes, but I'm thinking deeper. If you have 180 legacies who were groomed to be an ABC with her first onesie, and quota is 60, how do you tell 120 perfect women that she can't pledge the same house as her mother, grandmother, ggrandmother, etc? It seems too cruel - and yet, there will be other women who doesn't have any greeks in her family, but everyone loves her.

Let's face it, we've all heard about women who register at two different colleges, so that if they don't get a bid at University1, they can rush at University2 - due to recruitment schedules.

I agree with honeychile: I would like to see this topic considered more thoroughly. I only see this problem getting worse unless we hit a point where interest in joining sororities starts to decline.

I also wish it was as easy as thinking we could tell these mothers to get over it and realize times have changed since they were in college. As someone who has had to make those calls to alums when their legacies were released, I can tell you it is often sad and heartbreaking. I do not think we should take all legacies, or anything like that, but some of these women have been thinking for the past 18 years that their daughters will be given the same consideration they remember giving legacies when they were in college.

I like that my biological sister will get extra consideration when she goes through recruitment (especially since right now she is leaning towards Texas Tech). Although I do tell her how much I would love for her to be a DG, I also tell her that it is her decision and any sorority she chooses will be a good one. I would much rather have her go greek because the experience is one I would not give up for anything than go DG when she felt more comfortable at another chapter.

I can see your point; it does seem cruel. But I don't see how the problem can be rectified. As you've said, the potential number of legacies is huge (and getting bigger). How could we (NPC in general) possibly allow all of them to pledge their legacy house (and that's assuming the chapter wants them all)? Have no quota or ceiling?

I think the concept of extending special consideration to legacies is very important, because you're getting someone who has seen over as much as 18 years what the GLO means to the family member.

I don't understand why sororities would agree to policies that make them eliminate legacies they would otherwise want. To have to cut someone who wants to join, and the chapter wants, seems the height of arbitrary.

Nothing in the policies, though, should require a chapter to consider a member they don't want, legacy or not. Nor should anything require a rushee to consider a house she doesn't want, legacy or not.

I think a lot of it is how the individual chapter deals with the issue and who the particular alum and rushee are. I was a legacy through my grandmother at Theta (different campus), and was released after the second group of parties. My grandfather was furious, and was not going to give Theta any more money from my grandmother's estate. I knew I was not a good fit with that chapter, so it really didn't bother me; he eventually came around. :)

I know that we have had older alumnae who have been very upset because they feel that the reasons their legacies have been released for are invalid or unacceptable reasons. They have expressly said things like "if I was good enough, why wasn't she?" They can take it very personally. Some times, chapters just handle it poorly. But most of the time, a legacy just isn't a fit, and as someone else said, you have to realize it's a different time than when you rushed and there are other wonderful chapters out there. It's the same with getting into the same college, etc. These things happen.

Or, you're getting someone who didn't find out until she was going through rush that her mom was an XYZ, let alone in a sorority. I don't agree with giving (for example) national volunteers' daughters more consideration than just garden variety alums, but to assume that every legacy has been schooled in the wonderfulness of Greek life is a bit naive.

I don't think anyone ever said you should be FORCED to cut legacies. But someone's gotta go somewhere. Think of it from the point of view of the sorority sister at Bama who has 300 new pledge sisters - because that's what would happen (and I'm probably underestimating at some chapters) if all the legacies were taken. After a while, that's not a sorority, that's a small corporation.

How can rushees or chapters know what group they want if they don't even consider them?? :confused: Like I've said before, it's wonderful that you only looked at one group and it worked out for you, but that is not the experience for the majority of NPC women, thank God.

I feel for the chapters now having to deal with the bizarrely over-involved mothers. I mean really. Can you seriously think that your sorority is the only good one possible? And that reputations, activities, etc. haven't changed in 20-30-40 years or from campus to campus? Even the songs they sing won't be all the same.

But I still think using the legacy system is valuable. Any detail that helps you know a PNM any better is helpful, especially if you're at a campus with 500+ PNMs per year. Also, I don't have children, but I still have hope for 2 nieces. I look forward to the opportunity to give them a leg up some day. It's the least I can do, right?

I can't even begin to tell you how much I agree with this. Even at schools where you don't get a whole lot of legacies, and there is not a super competitive recruitment, it disturbs me that some alums automatically assume that their daughter is going to be an ABC because they were. I'm sorry, sure they might get an invite to round 2, but is it really fair if you force a collegiate chapter to take someone that they don't want for whatever reason just because mommy might get mad?

If I have a daughter and someday she wants to rush, I'll be happy if she is happy. If she's an AOII, that would be awesome, but if not that's ok too...she'll just be paying her own dues. :) (I'm not kidding, she'd be paying them herself anyhow, AOII or not. :))

Coming from a local sorority...legacies have a bit of a special tie. It's so rare to have one! The two years I was a PX, I had at least 3 legacies in my groups...and oddly enough I can think of only 1 who went to her legacy chapter (direct, her sister was in the chapter if I remember correctly?). While each sorority has their own policy, generally legacies are offered an invitation to first round parties (although it is up to the PNM to accept or regret the invite...). And it is also the responsibility of the PNM to identify herself in her sign up form as a legacy. You'd be amazed at how many girls have no idea if they are or not. I don't know of any legacies in my sorority since I joined, although we were re-founded in the 80's so it is almost time for those first few refounding sisters to have children going through recruitment!

I think whoever mentioned legacies being important on a small campus was on to something. Because our chapters and campus are so small, I think that legacies take on a very special role. We've also got these massive families of alumni who send all their kids to OC, so I guess it really is an ingrained and innate thing. Our alumni are extremely loyal (and that's how we like 'em :))

See, I don't have a problem with extra consideration for especially dedicated alumnae either. I see it more in college admissions than sorority recruitment, but the belief behind that extra consideration is that happy alumnae tend to give more often, and in larger amounts. What's one way to make an alumnus happy? Let their kid into the college or sorority!

Didn't mean to imply they were "schooled in wonderfulness." Simply stating that agreeing to a policy where you would HAVE to cut legacies you would otherwise want is kowtowing to the arbitrary.There is no way a group would want to pledge all 300 legacies, assuming that number isn't hyperbole.

And some don't have to consider greek life to know they don't want it. Despite her seeing what DG means to me, my daughter took one look at the rush booklet and pitched it.

I'm not intimately familiar with campuses and chapters that may have a bazillion legacies going through recruitment, but it seems to me that the typical legacy at my alma mater had connections to multiple sororities (whether they were actual legacies or another relative such as aunt, cousin, etc.) Looking through the current recruitment applications, I see that very clearly. Obviously, there are plenty of cases where a PNM's entire family is from one organization, but that *seems* to be the exception rather than rule (please correct me if this does not apply to some campuses).

Just as you mention the expanding legacy tree, I also see where as it expands, the legacy pool gets diluted, if you will, by other affiliations.
A PNM coming through recruitment today could be made a legacy by her mom (1), step-mom (1), grandmothers (2), great grandmothers (4) and her sisters (unlimited, I guess), and aunts, for those organizations who consider nieces as legacies. That's room for a lot of potential, overlapping, legacy-ness.

So... of those 180 legacies in your hypothetical example, how many might be legacies to other organizations?

Question: how many organizations consider you a legacy if your great-great grandmother was a member? That's where I see the big problems coming in (IMO). As the years go by, you'll increasingly get descendants of members of the organization who have no real connection to the organization any more. If legacy-making sticks to mothers, sisters, and grandmothers, then at least you have some containment.