I totally agree with you! In fact most greeks did at the meeting we had. It almost turned into a screaming match between greeks and council. It was just a bad scene and nothing was accomplished. Well, we'll hope for the best. but as far as making an example with our school I completely agree.

The excuse for this I always like is "Your insurance will go way down."

True. But how much will your dues have to increase to cover the costs of renting out halls, hiring bartenders, providing transportation, etc? Seems like 1/2 dozen of one & 6 of the other.

Insurance companies have to answer to an insurance commission which keeps them from charging unreasonable rates. Clubs or halls don't have any restrictions on that. They can gouge the hell out of you if you want, and they probably will, since THEIR insurance will rise as a result of hosting so many of these functions.

Dry Campus
 

Hi everyone,

I'm a tri-delt at Penn State University which is one of the largest greek involvment schools. Recently all chapters had a huge meeting with nationals which turned into a large debate of fraternities and sororoties against a board of older generational alumni who are now on the council. Basically we were told that they are working on making all schools dry campuses to frats and sororities. This put everyone in an uproar. This has already happened to many schools across the country I know. I was curious to see how others have dealt with the problems that go along with the situtation such as 3rd party vendors, possibly decrease in rushees, and high dues. Please let me know what you think!

thanks,
Amanda

Amanda,

I think they are trying to make an example at Penn State because of that chick who went on the disastrous bar tour last year (and as we all know, she wasn't even Greek). Alcohol is a CAMPUS problem, not a GREEK problem. I've partied up there enough to know that students are not going to stop drinking, doing bar tours, etc.

You make the fratenities and sororities dry, and it (a) drives the Greeks off campus for 3rd party vendor parties, thus cutting off social options for independents & locals & increasing town/gown animosity, and (b) people get blotto in dorms or off campus beforehand, thereby increasing binge drinking and drunk driving. So what has really been accomplished? Absolutely nothing.

And the increase you would have to have in dues - God, I'm not even going there.

I wonder how many of the people pushing this drank when they were 18 (let alone smoked a doobie or 2)? Hypocrisy sucks.

Sorry, but I just have to play devil's advocate here...

Did you join your GLO to drink and party or because you wanted to experience sisterhood/brotherhood, a supportive scholastic atmosphere, an opportunity to serve your community and a home away from home.

I do not argue the fact that if you are of-age, you do have the legal right to drink. However, as a member of a GLO you have a bigger responsibility to the whole - both the international and your local members. Not everyone is mature and responsible and yes, those of us that are pay the price for those that aren't. Maybe by acting as leaders instead of outraged young adults, you can help change the behavior of those that have 'ruined it for everyone else'.


Until then, alumnae and national organizations such as the NPC and NIC need to do something to preserve the reputation of GLOs, to insure that there will be GLOs in the future and make the GLO safe and affordable for everyone. Look at Dartmouth, Bowdoin and other campuses that are eliminating GLOs in their entirety. It's because they do not feel that the reputation and example these people set is suitable for their campus. Why is that? Step outside the box and look at it from their perspective. And before you even go there, yes, the drinking problem in dorms and off-campus is just as bad. But those people aren't running around campus with letters on their chest that easily identify them as members of a GLO.

Have you noticed that of all the Greeks, that BGLO and LGLO groups have the least amount of problems with this sort of thing? It's because they take extreme pride in themselves and their organization's reputation - both locally and nationally. The 'mainstream' GLOs could learn a lot from them.

I'll step off my soapbox now...

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Fraternally,
Barbara
Zeta Tau Alpha Alumna

If you have to go around telling everyone you're in charge you're not much of a leader.




[This message has been edited by PnguinTrax (edited June 23, 2000).]

Here's something I always wonder about when this subject is debated:

What percentage of GLO members at colleges/universities are even legally able to drink?

Interesting that the nationals (from your post I am assuming you mean all the nationals represented on your campus) are "dictating" the terms.

Not all nationals can (or should) do this. I know PhiDelt and SigmaNu nationals can dictate new rules and force implementation, without undergraduate involvement.

However, I know that LXA, and other nationals, must have changes such as this approved by the undergraduates at their national conventions. The undergraduates themselves would have to vote themselves dry nationwide. (I doubt we will see this happen in a majority of nationals).

Personally, I think it might be a good idea to go this route. Alcohol use is so prevalent in some chapters that the membership is blinded to the real purpose of why they should be there. I don't think a completely dry policy will fly anywhere, but a definite step back from where chapters are now is needed - maybe only allow alcohol at functions with a 3d party vendor...

Penguin is correct in her perception with BGLO/LGLO's use of alcohol....

As GLO members, we often will state that we strive toward a "higher standard" than non-Greeks. We must take the lead in walking the walk, otherwise, our mottoes fall on deaf ears....

As far as the insurance industry is concerned, 33, did you know that Fraternities and Sorority insurance ranks in the top two or three "risk" categories for insurance companies to cover? Think about why that is true, that is where the change needs to happen, not because it is insurance, but because of the risks taken....

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Don't be your brother's keeper; rather, be your brother's Brother.

[This message has been edited by LXAAlum (edited June 23, 2000).]

when I said nationals I meant NPC and IFC. I can definitely see from there point of view that they want to preserve what our founders wanted in the greek system completely. But every one of the board members admitted to having a great time in college drinking and partying. I absolutetly do not think that is what the greeks are all about. But no one will deny that they don't have a great time just partying. Too many negative consequences will occur I feel as a result of such changes. These are college kids that want to have fun. You can't change that. Rush numbers will go down and dues will increase. Whether we like it or not. What's going to happen to the greek system then?

Posted by 33Girl: "The genie of college drinking is out of the bottle, and it is not going back in. Dictates and ultimatums do not work (18th Amendment anyone?). 20 years ago, when the majority of states had an 18 or 19 year old drinking age, this wasn’t even an issue. Who thinks the college students of 1980 were more mature or able to handle drinking better than the college students of 2000?"

OK, I'll take that one on.

I seriously doubt the students of 1980 (or 1986 for that matter, when I associated) were more mature, or even less mature. The behavior itself has not changed, what changed is the general public perceptions of drinking. I can recall some of the good times I had back years ago, and, if those same kind of activities were done today, in public, as back then, we'd have been in big trouble.

Today's greek member unfortunately has us (meaning: 1970's-late 1980's greeks) to thank for many of the problems. The true "wild side" of greek life came of age back then, mainly due to the abolition of in loco parentis, and relaxing of rules by international org's headquarters (or by simply turning the other way).

What the greeks of today can show the greeks of the past is the TRUE meaning of brotherhood/sisterhood by getting back to the basics of their organizations founders.

I wouldn't trade many of the fun times I had as an UG, but, I also know that as a result of all the "fun," I did miss out on some of the real benefits of greek life. That is not to say the real benefits aren't fun - we just put ALL of our energy and resources into partying and drinking.

In addition to what Barara posted I also agree with LXAAlum:

In answer to the question who many GLO members are legal to drink? in Canada it's over 90%. Provinces either have a drinking age of 18/19. In BC it's 19. For some stats: there are 25 members in my chapter; only 3 of them aren't legal yet.

Thanks Siobhan. I'll admit to a U.S. bias on this one! It would seem to be quite a bit different here, with a legal drinking age of 21.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by PnguinTrax:

Did you join your GLO to drink and party or because you wanted to experience sisterhood/brotherhood, a supportive scholastic atmosphere, an opportunity to serve your community and a home away from home.

Yes, to BOTH questions!!

Already being a member of a service fraternity when I pledged my sorority, I was looking for a more social atmosphere. I also wanted more of the bonding that comes with a social GLO.

And to a member, the people who partied the most were also the ones who were at EVERY meeting/ritual/philanthropic event. They also had respectable GPA's.

The genie of college drinking is out of the bottle, and it is not going back in. Dictates and ultimatums do not work (18th Amendment anyone?). 20 years ago, when the majority of states had an 18 or 19 year old drinking age, this wasn’t even an issue. Who thinks the college students of 1980 were more mature or able to handle drinking better than the college students of 2000?

I know I might sound simple and naïve, but I have a hard time respecting a law (the 21 year old drinking age) that is WRONG. Period. And I find it utterly impossible to support anyone who says “Do as I say, not as I did.” I am so sick of alcohol being looked on as the root of all evil, when actually it is the misuse of alcohol. When it’s treated like a “forbidden fruit”, it becomes more, rather than less attractive. So when people finally turn 21, they go nuts.

I did take an oath to protect my sorority, which I believe means speaking up when you believe something is wrong, not just going along with the PC party line. I believe that decreasing the social component to the point a lot of people are talking about will mean less rushees and less chapters, and that is what I don’t want to happen.

The general American attitude towards drinking is ridiculous. If you are old enough to vote for the president and fight and die for your country you should be legally able to consume a beer or hell, 10 beers if you want (that's were the whole free country thing should come in). As long as you don't drink and drive or become violent, then the only person that you are hurting is yourself. There are not a lot of under-the legal-limit adults out there just wishing that they could get their hands on a six-pack but can't figure out how. This is even more true of people in college (greek or not). Also, maybe if the drinking age was lowered society stopped treating alcohol as such a dangerous, adults only, cool but forbidden thing than maybe kids wouldn't be so hell bent on trying to consume so much of it. It is not the fault of the greeks that college kids drink so much and perhaps drinking wouldn't be such a problem if the american public didn't insist on making it one.

DGirl..

You are absolutely right. If you have ever visited countries where drinking ages are lower (and some they are almost non-existent), you can very plainly see that the native people of that country don't look for a great way to party and drink on Friday night. They've been brought up in an atmosphere that taught them to drink responsibly. Their perception of alcohol is COMPLETELY different than ours, and the result is that they are (generally) more responsible.

I've already stated how I feel about dry houses, for those of you who missed that:
If you can't treat your OWN brothers/sisters like the adults they are, what does THAT tell the campus? Implement positive and proactive policies regarding drinking, educate, set realistic goals and limits, etc. But don't just step in and say "We're going to completely ban drinking from any and all activities and events, regardless of your legal right to decided for yourself if you want to drinkor not."

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SilverTurtle@greekchat.com
Phi Beta Fraternity
Phi chapter

[This message has been edited by SilverTurtle (edited June 25, 2000).]

I really don't understand the media and everyone else who are against drinking in the greek realm. They always say that fraternities and sororities are all about drinking and encourage drinking. Why don't they bring to the attention all the people with drinking related accidents that AREN'T greek??? I guarantee you that there is a hell of a lot more drinking problems with independants than with greek members. I believe that the people trying to knock the greek system are those people that were in college who hated greeks. I have one thing to tell them....we as greeks have lived on both sides. What do GDI's have to compare to? I would NEVER take back my decision to go greek!

so does anyone have suggestions for anything that could be done? Our campus is trying to fight this movement by NPC and IFC and it seems like we're losing the fight. From their persepctive (one that hasn't been in college in about 20-30 years!) the greek system will go downhill if kept the way it is. However, we know that if these chages are implemented, there will be too many drawbacks stopping potential new members from joining. what can we do?

I started this reply once and good old AOL bumped me offline, so here I go again.

This subject has been discussed at length on another Greek Bulletin Board (GreekCentral.com) and I have made a number of comments.

Bottom line? Survival of the Greek System as we know it.

Is that too dramatic? I don't think so.

Do you realize that a number (eighteen was the last number I heard) national fraternities and sororities have been unable to purchase liability insurance from ANY carrier? They have gone together to "self insure" themselves as a group. The problem is that they don't have nearly the financial resources as an insurance company, so a very few (maybe as few as two or three) major lawsuits could bankrupt the entire group.

Consider that. Eighteen national GLO's go down the tubes at the same time. It's not a pretty picture to contemplate.

And guess why they can't get insurance? Over 95% of all Greek insurance claims are alcohol related.

No Greek organization (or any other organization) can survive without insurance. Period.

Yep, I drank as an undergraduate, and still drink socially (so you can pull out the hypocracy charges if you care to), but I would argue that things have changed a bit over the years. The spotlight on the problem is a lot brighter now.

Numerous surveys by several nationally recognized pollsters agree that alcohol is an education system wide problem -- BUT that it is bigger within Greek Letter Organizations. When so many different surveys by so many different companies come to the same conclusion, there must be some validity to the results.

So, would you rather deal with third party vendors (who must provide their own insurance coverage) or other creative solutions, or keep houses "wet" and deal with the potential of destroying the entire Greek System somewhere down the road?

Finally, whether it's good or right or just or whatever, the law is the law. If you drink underage, you're breaking the law. If you do it in a fraternity or sorority house, there is probably legal liability on the part of the house.

It's a scary proposition. Think about it. And, most important, think moderation. Even one alcohol related death or injury is too many.

Fraternally,
DeltAlum

Okay, had to say something. I'm in Korea right now which has a slightly lower drinking age than America. Anyway drinking here is not as looked down upon as in America and does that make people here more responsible and have a more mature attitude towards drinking? No! and I do mean a big, emphatic no! I teach university English here, so I should know. I can't even tell you how many students showed up to my class with hangovers in the middle of the week. So the idea that not looking harshly at drinking will make people want to do it less does not work.

Actually, it's the lack of overall freedom from their parents and sudden freedom when they get to college that causes them to drink so much (and I mean a lot), not Korean society telling them alcohol is bad (korea, while having big taboos on sex, is really open about alcohol).

Anyway, I do believe in America's freedom and don't think sororities and frats should be made completely dry. I understand that young people like to drink and party (seems those two words are almost synonymous these days, huh?) But I do think each chapter should take the responsibility on itself to simply conduct themselves with behavior that doesn't disgrace their national sorority or fraternity.

Right now I'm in the process of writing an opinion article about this Korean book called "The Most Common Things Americans in Their 20s Say." Among the many things I find wrong with this book, in describing American sororities and fraternities, he tells all his Korean readers that they party not only on the weekend, but every night of the week, getting drunk several times a week and in their drunken state, having sex with different people all the time and usually receiving Fs. Sorry for the run-on sentence, but I was really angry when I heard this because my GPA never dropped below a 3.5 and I didn't drink until I was 21. Some of my sisters did, but that certainly wasn't "all" that they did. I'm just saying we shouldn't (and fortunately, most of us don't) put the top priority on drinking. I hate to even think now what my Korean students are thinking about me when I tell them I was in a sorority, especially when I am so proud of it.

Don't make this man's book a true story!

Speaking lawyerly...
(My campus is not dry)... but if it was...

"If I were to buy a house, and have a drinking party there, the fact that I am in a fraternity is irrelevant." Noone can touch you.


Just purchase a house off campus.

Easy E www.angelfire.com/va2/gammachi

Okay, my campus isn't dry either, so I'm pretty ignorant as to what the difference is...I guess I've kind of taken for granted being able to drink at the on-campus bar, at fraternity houses, and in dorms. I had always heard that there weren't too many campuses that weren't dry, but now I'm not sure.

Well the thing is, I go to Penn State and sororities don't have houses there...we live on dorm floors. so we Don't need insurance. I understand that frats do and we have socials in their houses but the insurance isn't really an issue with us. It wasn't even brought up by NPC.

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