The Patriot Act II
 

With this war going on, it's easy to get caught up in thinking about what's going on in Iraq, the soldiers, their familys, and the politics of the whole situation. But I think that we should also remember that there are other things going on in this country, other agendas that the government has, that are severely limiting the freedoms we so dearly love and claim to defend.

Have any of you done any research on the Homeland Security Act passed in the wake of 9/11? Or the Patriot Act? Most notably, it provided sweeping powers to law enforcement and intelligence agencies, doing away with the checks and balances that had been put into place to prevent the abuse of these powers. They allow for survellance of citizens, including over the internet. Meaning that if you happen to be surfing anti-Bush sites, the government may be keeping tabs on you. If also includes new definitions of terrorism, which could include members of legitimate protest groups. It also allows for the collection of DNA samples for ANY crime of violence. The government can now wiretap and even arrest you for a minimum of 10 years for being suspected of intentionally or unintentionally violating the Computer abuse and Fraud Act. It allows the government to spy on American Citizens and Foreigners in the country...it used to be that this could only be done if there is suspicion that the person is a Foreign Agent...now the only reason needed is the scarily vague reason that there is a "significant purpose." You can now also be wiretapped without probable cause.

These are just SOME of the disturbing provisions that are in effect now. You can do a quick search to find more.

Now there is a new patriot act, the Patriot Act II coming into play. The government has been very hush-hush about it, and even lied, saying that there was no intention to pass such an act, that it was just for research. Now it looks like the administration will try to take advantage of the war and our averted attention to push this bill forward. This act will limit our civil rights more than before, and will also upset the balance of power that exists between the state and federal government. Under this act, the government will be able appoint federal officials to oversee the state governments. Please read that sentence again and let it register. Also under this act, citizens can be arrested for questionable reasons and held without releasing information regarding their whereabouts, or even why they are incarcarated...the press will also be denied information about arrests, including names. What this means is that anyone can be taken from the street for no other reason than "seeming supsicious" and never seen again. You can also have your citizenship stripped from you for being a suspected terrorist.

If you are not worried by reading this information, and are not planning to do research to take a closer look at this situation, there is something very wrong. Under these new laws, our government will have the means to form the small beginnings of a "big brother" dictatorship. These are the same sort of provisions that leaders such as Adolf Hitler imposed in the early and subtle days of their rule. I realize that we have all been shocked by the events of the past 2 years, but it's time to shake ourselves off and stop being passive in our fear, allowing our government to destroy the very constitution we SAY we are defending right now! Please, for a moment stop talking about the Oscars, Vera Wang dresses and who the best Fraternity is and educate yourselves about what is going on in this country. (And those are all great things to talk about btw, I just ask for a pause to examine a very serious and impending situation). And for those worried about our troops and the war situation - don't allow your concern to blur the focus on defending at home what it is they were supposedly sent to defend! Take a look at what is happening and get involved before it's too late!

Expect a lot of these provisions to be challenged and defeated by the Supreme Court.

I think in the long run we need something like that to protect us. Hopefully many years from now it can be repealled. But for now I'd rather they be able to go after the bad guys and if they have to go through my stuff to get to 'em.. At least I'm alive afterwards.

I'm one that supports the whole "break a few eggs to make an omelette"...but this is more like killing the chicken. I don't think that is is something that should exist EVER. The witch hunt that went on during the 50s is very similar to what could easily happen under these new laws. The intent was the same, to protect the citizens of america. But whenever you have loopholes that exist like that for the government, it's guaranteed they will be taken advantage of. Let's look at it this way...say this thing goes into effect, and next election someone gets into office that you have a HUGE problem with(let's put aside any predictions you may have concerning said election). You dislike this person enough that you are stirred to action, lobbying, putting up a website, speaking out, whatever. Lets say your instincts are right and this hypothetical administration is doing terrible things to the country. Under this law, you could just be carted off to jail, WITHout being charged, without your family being notified...as far as they'd know you just disapeared. Do we really have to wait till it comes to that point before the people of this country do something about it? I really don't understand people who are such vocal "patriots", talking about how wonderful this country is, how many rights we have, yet just shrug when our bill of rights is torn up in Washington DC. There is no justification for that. As I always hear others saying, people DIED for those rights, and I'd rather have died on 9/11 in those towers than have them still standing while the government keeps taps on me and jails my neighbors without evidence.

A bird in a cage is free of predators, but it is still caged, it is not free.

Re: The Patriot Act II
 

I agree with ktsnake. It might be an inconvenience and a hinderance, but at least I know that my loved ones are being looked out for in the long run.

Tom Daschle's going to jail!

If also includes new definitions of terrorism, which could include members of legitimate protest groups.

And probably quite a few IL-legitimate protest groups.

It allows the government to spy on American Citizens and Foreigners in the country...it used to be that this could only be done if there is suspicion that the person is a Foreign Agent...now the only reason needed is the scarily vague reason that there is a "significant purpose."

Those guidelines worked real well two Septembers ago.

What this means is that anyone can be taken from the street for no other reason than "seeming supsicious" and never seen again.

The American government is now being run by Tony Soprano.

And I think I'll just ignore the Hitler comparison.

Unfortunately most people don't even care. They would rather blindly simply regurgitate the "reasonings" that are fed to them via public officials/media instead of actually doing a little research on it. :(

"Unfortunately most people don't even care."

That's incredible to me! How can people not care? I'm not understanding, and again, it's always the same people who trumpet the greatness of our country and the freedom within. I live in NYC, I was there when 9/11 happened, I witnessed the towers burning and falling, and many of my friends who lived a block away and saw people jumping from windows and ran as dust and rubble overcame them. And yet we are all in concensus that though it was horrible, it did not, it could not ever warrant the taking away of those freedoms that the people in those buildings and in the pentagon died for. They died for that freedom, as the patriots died for theirs, and sometimes that is the price. Give me liberty or give me death is what I believe in, and nothing else, especially not panic or fear will make be feel otherwise. I am appalled that so many of us who talk about it quail at the opportunity to prove it. Especially those who, I'm sorry to say it, were not there. At least those who were could have some small crumb of an excuse. But not much.

Another point - There is no evidence that the policies put into place have done anything to increase our safety. In fact, many of these laws do not even adress terrorism, but apply instead to domestic affairs. PLEASE REVIEW THIS BILL.

i am more concerned with being alive while this war is going on.

i am willing to give up some of my rights to protect future generations from terrorists.

these issues will never all pass.

Wow, this is sad. Now I see why the rights of groups over history have had to fight for so long and so persistently. People don't care enough until they are the ones directly in danger of losing those rights. And even this is pretty blatenly threatening to us all, and all I've seen people respond with so far is "eh, I don't really need rights, as long as the bad guys are caught." I really hope that this is not a reflection of our general nation's population. I dunno that's really sad, hopefully people will wake up soon, and before this gets too far.


Why are we fighting this war again? So we can secure freedoms for another country that we're just GIVING away, so the government can "borrow" them??? Oh yeah, I'm sure they'll be happy to hand them right back without a fight too. Good Lord, I don't understand people sometimes.

My thoughts exactly. What bothers me most is the pride we have about ourselves and the apathy we have about others. I thought we would learn from 9/11, apparently a lot have not.

I quoted the above, because this has been the attitude of a lot of people concerning everything from poverty all the way down to the rules in their Home Owner's Assoc. covnent. ;)

Most folks don't excited about much until its at their front door. :(

I quoted the above, because this has been the attitude of a lot of people concerning everything from poverty all the way down to the rules in their Home Owner's Assoc. convent. ;)

Most folks don't excited about much until its at their front door. :(

Get out the fire estinguishers on this one...
 

Was I the only one to notice the following? (Dinos mention of 9/11 got me thinking)

Yeah, I'll say it, I was LESS THAN PLEASED to see what, 100,000 NYC liberals marching against the war on Terror 2 weekends ago in that STARTED IN THEIR DAMN BACKYARD. Ungratefuls. 9/11 $hit didnt happen in Houston, LA or Seattle, yet its OUR kids going off to war to eliminate saddam. Some of you might say "this war isnt about terror, its about oil." I am sure our govmt has proof of the WMD Iraq has and secondly, Do you really think we'd even be fighting this war if 9/11 had never happened? Not only no, but hell no. we have now been prompted to clean up SOB's whos actions in their own country deliberately threaten ours. Its that simple.

Secondly for the Patriot act I, II or whatever, dood, my momma always taught me, keep your damned nose clean and you have nothing to worry about. Example: Got an MIP at a party, well ya probably shouldnt have been there anyway. Not a terrorist or antigovernemnt? Ya have NOTHING to worry about. Or even better, you spend all your tiem worrying abou this, and I'll worry about what I am going to have for dinner. Would you also like to worry about my declining 401K too? Hows about what color I should pait my bedroom? Go ahead if ya like.

See the reason I am not all up in arms about this is not because I dont care, Its just that with a degree in political science I UNDERSTAND how our government works. 1) the likelyhood of this passing is marginal. I dont get emotional over marginal $hit. If so, Id be worked up over my chances of marginally getting laid this weekend. I also am not worked up over the chances of the sweet tea law passing in Georgia, either.

Secondly, again, understanding how our governement works, even if it did pass, it would so be completely challenged by a watchdog group liek the ACLU. It would work its way through the constitututionally provided channles of the court system and ultimately, if not stuch down before, be reviewed by the supreme court. And as any court watcher would agree, the curerent court, while conservative has generally been a protector of civil liberties,and not known for erioding them.

this will all work out, and most importanly, you'll prolly see the sun come up tomorrow morning, which is more than 25 of our service men can now say, who died defending our right to have this argument...

do you people ever stop bitching and moaning about the current administration? yeah, the patriot act has some flaws, but so do all other bills passed by congress!!!!!!! look at the speed in which it was passed, of course there are things to iron out and that will probably happen in court. this bill is to make us safe, and thats whats important. i work at a financial institution, and in my training, i had to study the financial aspects of the patriot act, and maybe if you would take a second out of criticizing everything youd see that this bill made it a bitch for terrorists and those suspected of it to obtain money and its a lot easier to be able to trace funds that are in sucpicion.

on another note, cloud9, i see you like to bash conservatives and legislation proposed by them. can you say anything good about them, the legislation, or do you think liberals are 100 % rights all the time? i want a straight up answer and not some bs that ends up side stepping the question. all you seem to do on here is spout hate towards our nations leaders.

Re: Get out the fire estinguishers on this one...
 

100,000 NYC liberals protest a war that is perceived as unjust. Many Americans and people around the world are protesting this war.

What does that have to do with being grateful or ungrateful?
Ungrateful for what?

What does OUR kids going off to war to eliminate saddam mean? There are plenty of New Yorkers in the military.

Lifesaver, why are you being so hostile regarding New Yorkers? I really don't get it. September 11th was an attack on the United States of American, not just New York City. Remember the Pentagon and Pennsylvania? It was attempt to undermind the American way of life, the American ecomony, and the American government.

Re: Re: Get out the fire estinguishers on this one...
 

I get what you are saying. I am not purposfully trying to be hostile to new yorkers. I like NY. I have visited several times now. I'll be back up there this summer. My best friend in the world lives there (Staten Island) But fundamentally, me and quite a few other people I know didnt take the 9/11 attacks as an attack on the US and a way of life. New Yorkers always carry themselves with the sense of bravado that NYC is the center of the world and took such ownership of the 9/11 events that it seemed to happen to them, not us. (You have to admit that the then and post 9/11 coverage was 90%NYC and 10% DC and Pennsylvania.) Me and a lot of other people I know are Texans first. Yeah, were us citizens too, but the 9/11 attacks didnt happen here. I didnt know anyone who died in them. So while I know the terrorists' attemps were to make it a strike on the US way of life, We just didint take it a that. My life went on pretty much the same, except for the extra 35 minutes for security when I fly. Nothing else changed for me.

People can protest whatever thay want in my book. Its what our forefathers died to protect. What I am saying is the ungrateful comment comes from the above paragraph. THe 9/11 attacks happened to you. Not me. All of September of 2001 and post was "How could this happen? Who's responsible? We gotta go get them." And ya know, the country was with ya'll on that. And now that we are "taking care of it" its protrayed on TV that ya'll think going after the peeps who had a hand in this one way or another is unjust. (Granted the links between IRAQ and 9/11 seem now to be tenous AT BEST, I have faith that the links exist and we'll be shown them, in due time. If not, I'll eat this entire post.) After seeing the protest on TV I was like, so they readily accepted the love, support and assistance of the entire country then, but now, when push comes to shove, were wrong for trying to keep it from happening (to you or someone else) again? WTF? That I dont get. Its like my friend Julie. She dated Mike all through college, had the perrenial fights, shed tell us how much she hated him, and he was an SOB. THree weeks later, she was back with him. This happend for 4 years till they got married in November. And they both lost a lot of credibility with the rest of us.

Peeps be upset that 9/11 happend, but dont seem to wanna do anything about it if it makes us a bit squeamish or uncomfortable. That I dont get. Were doing this also to teach the fundamentalists that OK, yeah, you can sneak in and set of a bomb in the us, but we wont take it and be scared. Much liek how bush I admitted last nigh tthat he "underestimated" Saddams reaction to the gulf war aftermath (they all thought hed be overthrown) Al-Queda underestimated the US. Ok, be a terrorist, but be prepared to have the govmt that supported you be overthorwn, and you finances cut off.

I am not a war monger. I hate it. I would rather have all our troops back safe and sound and not having to do this. But do I want another 9/11 or worse, HELL NO. If we gotta start with Iraq and do the same to 15 other countries too? Lets roll. I'm game.

hallo chopper. you don't like what I have to say? Oh well, not like that will stop me, try using the dreaded rolling eye smiley face, maybe that will intimidate me, hahaha.

To answer your question, I don't support either party, that's a whole separate discussion! Basically I don't like the whole bipartisan thing, I think it's time to get some new contending parties in there to foster more choice and competition among candidates. I realize it's not likely this will happen anytime soon, but that doesn't mean I have to bite my tongue and go with the herd like the rest of the sheep.

One question...I'm wondering how little you all would care about this bill if you were of middle eastern descent, or even just could resemble one(ie indian, spanish, etc)??? I'm SURE it would be a whole different response. And what's this about "those who have nothing to hide shouldn't worry(lifesaver I think?" So basically we should all be quilty till proven innocent, and we can be absolved once we've gone through scrutiny, surveillance, and possibly even jail? Really, what would it take for you to become concerned? Things like this always happen subtley, it's not the the gov. is going to come out with a "paranoid citizen spy act." This should at least be worthy of checking out rather than spouting more of the blind patriotism that's been running rampant lately.

Hey Lifesaver
 

I'll excuse some of your derogatory NYC comments since you seem an impassioned guy, and I can relate to saying dumb things when the spirit takes me. Anyways...

It is very significant that so many New Yorkers are protesting the war and the some of the actions of the gov post 9/11. I think that those who witnessed the attacks have a greater connection to what happened, and understand the significance. The TRUE significance. In the end, freedom is a precious gift, and sometimes the price is death. But it is worth the loss of life if it results in the preservation of that freedom. I hear it time and time again, and we are seeing it now - people are dying, and killing, and they say it is for freedom. How can we be such hypocrites and just throw it all away with no resistence in our own home? Some of you talk alot of sh*t but when it comes down to it, the real cowards are the ones who just want to send the soldiers "over there" to die, and then will give up the special entitlements of US citizenship without a wimper here at home, because somehow "we will be safer." Why? Well, because they tell us so. Who's they? Oh, the ones who are taking those rights away. Man, some of you should really listen to yourselves yo.

And of course I can't regulate this, but if you're looking to get me to respond to you, I would suggest calming yourselves and avoiding the childish "oh you dirty liberal" remarks. Unless of course you'd rather be disregarded, which is fine too.

Re: Re: Re: Get out the fire estinguishers on this one...
 

Believe me, I would have prefered September 11th had never happened. As I have posted previously, people that I know were murdered. No one could have imagined that Sept. 11th would have happened until it did. Pearl Harbor was an attack on the US. I view Sept. 11th the same way.

The media coverage was primarily focused on NY because most of the deaths and destruction took place here. There was live videotape of the towers coming down and people dying. As far as I know, there is no such videotape of a plane crashing in PA or the Pentagon being attacked. Also NYC is the home of most of the national news stations so they were right there to report it.

You and your friends might not view Sept. 11th as an attack on the US and a way of life, but it was. I don't think that New Yorkers always carry themselves with bravado. I think that that is an incorrect stereotype. I think that the terrorists viewed NYC as the center of the world or at least the US economy. That is why they targeted the Twin Towers.

I am not sure what taking such ownership of the 9/11 events means. The majority of the damage of the terrorist attacks happened in New York and affected New York most directly, but it happened to the USA.

You are lucky that your life went on pretty much the same way as it had pre 9/11. Mine didn't. Everyone I know was affected. We lost friends and neighbors as well as a sense of security. 18 months later, we still feel the aftermath of Sept. 11th. Be grateful that terrorist attacks didn't happen near you. Life will never be the same.

As for being ungrateful, I still don't understand. As for the protest, think of it this way, news reports say 100,000 New Yorkers protested. That sounds like a lot, but it is out of nearly 8,000,000 people so it is a very small fraction of the population. Additionally, many people showed up for the 'support our troops' rally.

The unfortunate thing about protesters is that they get media attention. Here in Oklahoma some family sat on a bridge overlooking I-35 waving American flags, displaying patriotism. The stuff made the news, the front page, etc.. 3 people!

In New York as Cream said, 100,000 people (or 1/800) out of NYC showed up to protest. How about the other 799/800 people? They had better things to do than proclaim the evils of GW.

I've personally been witness to terrorism. Not on the same scale.. But I was in a high school classroom just a few miles away from the Alfred E Murrah building when it was blown up in Oklahoma City. I've seen the stuff first hand and known people that have died in a terrorist attack.

We have to face the music. Terrorism could be a LOT worse than a manure bomb or a couple of planes flying into a building. With only around 3000 people dead on US soil we are lucky. Yes, we need extra measures to ensure that serious things like chem/bio/nukes are not deployed on the US population. Yes we will have to give up some of our privacy.

You have to ask yourself... would you rather no one look at your email or would you rather be dead?

Not a tough choice for me..

cloud9....first of all, i'm just going to say that i think you are very well read in this area and you know what the act says and all that....i think also, though, maybe you are interpreting from that our government is out to get the american people just because. that's not, in my opinion, the case. the american government seeks out those who intend for ill-will to happen upon us. those who wish to terrorize us and blow us up and make us look like flaming idiots (whoa, germany). this act is for the american people's protection, it is not about a hitler reincarnat....it's about protecting this country, it's citizens, me, YOU. no, i don't think anyone really wants for everything they do to be monitored.....but if it's happening to everyone here, then it's not like someone is being singled out....like, middle easterners who live here would not be the only ones subjected to this treatment. it's all of us. i'm ok with that b/c some ppl give up their lives for our freedoms and rights to be protected, my privacy is not that severe of a thing to give up for a while. i mean, if they do listen in to my phone calls or read my emails, at least they won't be bored. ;) it's not that we don't care, it's just that we are willing to give a bit of ourselves for the overall protection (i seem to like that word...pro-tec-tion....let's all say it together) of our fellow citizens. i don't have anything to hide, so why sweat it? it's not like they're gonna see someone is a registered democrat/republican and carry them away in an armored car.

just my thought....take it for what it's worth.
monica

This is not completely a fair response in a logical debate.

If THE choice was certain or NEAR certain death at the hands of a terrorist versus the loss of my civil liberties that would be one thing. Bye Bye Bill of Rights.

But the question is: Do we want to give up our rights, the very fabric that defines us, for a shapeless fear?

If that is ok with you that is good, because there will always be enough death and killings to say "I Told You So".

And there will always be enough of them to justify more restrictive laws.

As far as rights... what have we lost? A certain degree of our right to privacy as far as the government is concerned but besides that not much else has changed!

I do see a fair amount of this law being taken down in the supreme court.

Personally though I don't know or know of any instances where people have felt restricted because of these changes.