Question for Protesters (Peaceful Discussion; no flames allowed! :-) )
 

I don't want to start a flame war with this post, mainly because many of the GreekChatters who are most adamently opposed to this war are some of my favorite people I've "met" on here.

It's my feeling that, since war is apparently inevitable, those who opposed it should accept that they were, in effect, overruled. I'm not saying they should embrace the cause, but I don't understand why they would continue to protest something that is a done deal. I don't think additional dissent would do anything to end the war. Rather, it would add to the image the rest of the world must surely have of the U.S. as being fragmented and therefore vulnerable.

Tom DeLay, House Majority Leader was quoted yesterday as saying, "There is a proper time and place for vigorous debate, but now is the time for America to speak with one voice." **

Even Carl Levin, the senior Democrat on the Armed Services Committee was quoted as saying, "Those of us who have questioned the administration's approach...will now be rallying behind the men and women of our armed forces to give them the full support that they deserve."**

Nancy Pelosi, House Minority Leader said, "If our troops are ordered into action, Americans will support courageous men and women in uniform who will bear the burden of that action."**

A quote from middle school history keeps running through my head, but darned if I can remember who said it! "A house divided among itself cannot stand" Lincoln, I think?

We all know that everyone has the right to voice dissenting opinions, but I'm just wondering if to do so would be prudent right now.

Also, do you think anti-war protests hurt the morale of our military men and women? Do you think it is possible to protest the war while at the same time supporting the troops? How can this be done? This is a big thing for me and I'd really love to hear what everyone has to say about it.

Again, I'm giving no flame, so I hope no one gives me any flame :) I would really love to hear everyone's opinion on this whether you agree with me or not.



Thanks!


**from The Baltimore Sun article by Julie Hirschfeld Davis 3/18/03

I have always found Plato's the Republic interesting.
In it he basically says all things being equal in a republic, when decision must be made on a subject and it is decided, even if you are a part of the opposing side, you need to rally behind the decision for the great good of the republic.

I have friends over there, a cousin who is a brand new father and has yet to see his son, people that I love, and yet I know that they are there for a reason.

I was watching MTV a few weeks ago and the did a really good True Life about the situation with Iraq and talked to some teenagers and they started in on September 11th and these two teenagers, like 11 and 15 said that the people in the twin towers DESERVED to die! HONESTLY!

SO I find it hard to have pity on people who want innocent men, women and children to die. I know that they do not know any better about America because their media is government controlled and tells them how horrible we are, but seriously!

I don't want the men and women I love over there fighting this battle, but I know it must be done, I know that Saddam will never stop backing Al Queda and attacks against American and it's allies. So if the job must be done, let's get in there, make it fast and do it right. And Saddam should not walk away from this one.

Please bring my Eric Luckett back to me safely!

Tracy, don't know if you heard but there was a big protest Sunday thru Schenley/Flagstaff Hill & down Morewood. Mr. 33 said it was odd to have war protests before it was even certain we were going to war and I said "well, that's when we SHOULD have them, silly."

I think Vietnam era protests were different because so many of those men were drafted. Probably a lot of the guys in the trenches were in total agreement with the protestors. But now with pretty much everyone in the military having gone into it willingly, I don't know how they could NOT take it personally.

Honestly though, if the people actually fighting the war think they're doing what is right, I don't think the protestors will deter them from their mission. A voluntary, trained military is a hell of a lot different than a drafted military and those men deal with people who are against what they do every day.

Good question KillarneyRose as I myself have questioned this very thing this morning. When people post " stand behind our troops" or "support our troops", what do they mean? Does that mean that I, as someone who does not support the war, should just be quiet and do not express my opinion? Are they saying that if you are a person that is against the war, you are somehow against the troops too. (That is utterly ridiculous!)
Because that is message that I get.

The average person (with some sense :) ) knows that military service personnel are doing their job(regardless as to how they themselves may feel about this whole situation). Those men and women are in my prayers everyday. So to me, that is how I support my troops.......with prayer.

On another note:

I just read about the comments from the lead singer of The Dixie Chicks concerning our troops. BOOOO on her ! :mad:

Good topic.

I agree with Honeykiss. You better believe I am supporting our troops. With all of my heart I hope they can do what they are ordered to do with as little trouble as possible.

However, I STILL do not support the REASONING for this war, nor do I support Bush's lies to the American people to try to justify it. I will not silence my views about that, and I still don't feel that is unpatriotic of me. If we must go to war, I certainly hope that it ends swiftly with its purpose met so we can be finished with it. But at the same time, I really don't think it is necessary.

I agree with Librasoul. I do not believe in this war, I do not agree with the "reasons" behind it and I refuse to not state my views because some people view it as unpatriotic. However, I do hope the men and women who have to fight are as safe as possible.

Also, at many war protests the signs say things like "Don't risk the lives of our military" "We support our troops but not our commander in chief" etc. I think the military personel see that and do understand that we are simply stating our opinions freely in a democratic society that they, and many before them, have helped to keep free.

I support, with prayer and hopes for a safe journey home, the men and women of the armed forces. Until the Gulf War my family had a family member participate in every war the U.S has ever been a part of - that includes the Revolutionary! But I do not, and will not out of fear of being 'unpatritoic', support President Bush's decision to begin this war.

My only problem is that many protestors, like during the Vietnam era, are giving the soldiers themselves shit for going over there (the term "baby killer" comes to mind). The guys you should you be protesting are, in the words of Tom Berenger in Platoon, "Them politicians fighting this war with one hand tied around their balls". These guys are going and fighting and dying for their country, and for what, to get called a murderer and a complete loser for it by the people he was fighting for?

Well, Vietnam and this current war is stretching the concept of them fighting for "us", but still, these are brave guys who would defend you when someone who's actually a threat to the United States comes after us.

I don't wanna go to war either, and whether I back Bush because of it or not, I will sure support our troops in whatever duty they are called upon.

I want to point out that those of us who are anti-war are usually in no way anti-soldiers. We're pro-soldiers (well, the majority of us are)! We don't want people to die . . . especially our men and women who are putting their lives on the line right now. We just want them all to have a chance to see next year.

I'm in no way anti-soldier nor do I think what they're doing is wrong. If they agree with the war then of course they have a right to be out there fighting, and I respect them for standing up for what they believe in.

As for the rest of it . . . I do think the members of Congress will stand behind the president, and they probably should. Beyond that, it doesn't really matter. Do you actually think that Hussein (or anybody else, for that matter) is going to be like, "Ohhh, well there were Americans protesting the war up until it happened, but now that war has been declared they're all behind the president -- uh oh, they must really all be pro-war now!"? First, I don't think the actions of the American people are going to influence "the other side" one bit. And second, I don't think that "Americans coming together to stand united" make one bit of difference in the long run -- everybody still knows that there are Americans who are anti-war regardless of whether or not they're protesting.

dont hate me for saying this. i am not trying to start something. there is just one thing that i dont get.
i in no way shape or form support this war. i do like our president. i think he is a good man. i just wish i could understand why he thinks this is necessary.
i know the troops are americans just like us. i do have sympathy for their families. i just cannot say that i support them. they are doing something that i dont agree with. how can i support them? or stand behind them? really, those two are the same thing.
i am just disappointed with this whole situation.

Re: Question for Protesters (Peaceful Discussion; no flames allowed! :-) )
 

Rose,

Vietnam was a "done deal" when the protests began. We had been there for years. Had we not had dissenters, we might still be there. (No? Ask the French -- sorry, we're not talking to them are we?)

While there may have been some, I have not yet seen anyone showing the kind of disrespect to members of our military such as was shown during the Vietnam era. Just the opposite, in fact. Remember, I've seen both -- most of you haven't.

I strongly support our men and women in uniform. If I felt that there was absolute proof the alegations against Iraq, I would support this military action.

The campaign by the administration has been clever. The President's speech writers are outstanding. But, when you cut through the rethoric, the proof, for me, is lacking. Purely circumstantial. Lots of propaganda techniques -- bandwagoning, transference, begging the question, name calling -- the whole spectrum.

What has been missing is hard evidence. Or, at least, that's the way it appears to me.

The protests around the world would seem to indicate to me that the evidence has failed to stand up in the court of world opinion.

We are using several UN resolutions to justify an invasion, while it is obvious that the UN does not agree with our course of action. Even many of our NATO allies disagree. Many will say that the UN and NATO have outlived their usefullness. That may be so, but if is, why use the previous resolutions as justification?

What am I missing there? Playing both ends?

I had no problem with the first Mid-East war because Saddam was clearly invading a neighboring country -- I just wish the hell President Bush the first had allowed the military to finish the job. There is no question in my mind that we could have.

Finally, I have no patience with the "Love it or Leave it" argument. In many (most) cases, that's a pat fallback for those who have no real argument. Bandwagonning, again.

The right to criticize goes both ways -- and both sides need to remeber that.

Re: Question for Protesters (Peaceful Discussion; no flames allowed! :-) )
 

Although this has nothing to do with the war when I saw this statement I thought about Civil Rights protesters. Jim Crow laws where a done deal when they protested and had been for years. But the men and women continued to protest for a cause they believed was worthy, for what they believed was right in their hearts. I would think the same would go for war protesters. If they truly believe this war is unjust they will continue to protest.

Re: Question for Protesters (Peaceful Discussion; no flames allowed! :-) )
 

I pretty much agree w/ everything KillarneyRose posted.

I do not want to go to war. Like many GC'ers and Americans, I have friends and one family member out there, and I want more than anything for them to just come home.

Sometimes I feel selfish for just wanting them back home.:(
And I think I feel that way because I know that when they signed up and even now, they are doing it because they want to protect us back home, even though I'm sure they would all like to be home right now.

For that, I support the troops, our allies, and our government 110%

Unfortunately, our allies (France, Germany) don't support US. Just a thought...

I think Texas*Princess is referring to the countries who are allied with us in this action specifically. Correct me if I'm wrong; T*P?

The only other thing that I think of when reading everyone's posts is I don't agree.

I don't know what kind of proof do you want? Do you really think Saddam is cooperating? How many times is enough that the UN can come down on him and say, "come on now, give the biological weapons and nuclear devices back" to him and him repeatedly disobey the UN and then again they say, "Okay, we really mean it this time, we want whatever you have" so he occasionally throws them a bone.

The UN is a disgrace right now. Any dictator that has the idea that they can store weapons of mass destruction has been proven correct, because obviously what the UN says they do not mean. If they aren't going to stand behind their own policies, I would rather us take care of the situation now than wait until Saddam takes Nerve gases and god only knows what else and uses it on a smaller, weaker country such as Kuwait.

They don't have the resources we do, we can solve this problem before he gets a chance or wait until he PROVES he has these weapons,.... when he uses them on people.

Yep Killarney, you're right! I guess I should have been more specific ;)

I know, I know. Just another anti-war girl trying to make the point that our usual "allies" still do not support this conflict. I'm a trouble maker, what can I say!? :p

However, I think with mine and ilovemyglo's post, we have inadvertantly hijacked the thread. We should get back on topic - why anti-war folks feel their lack of support for the war is not not hurting the moral of the troops themsleves etc....

My opinion on this is slightly skewed, as I'm intentionally not as educated on this topic as I should be. I've been looking at this conflict as "ignore it, and it'll go away." Wishful thinking, yes, but as an extremely neurotic/paranoid person with a brother and several friends in the Mideast, it has kept me sane. I've been limiting my CNN time to about 10 minutes a day (normally I have it on the majority of the day as background) b/c thinking about this upsets me.

By human nature I am a pacifist. I believe that violence should be the very last resort to ANY conflict. I've heard the reasons as to why would should be doing what we're doing, and I agree that Hussein is a nutcase who is determental to his country and the world. He's not a man that's going to be reasoned with, and we all know this. However, I'm just thinking about all the innocent lives, Iraqui, Amercian, British, etc. that are going to be lost in this war. That's what really gets me. The powers that be claim they're going in there to get Hussein and then reset order in the country. Why do they think they can get him this time? They didn't in '91.

That being said (sorry about going off topic), I support our troops entirely. I say a prayer every night for a peaceful resolution. But I do NOT support a war of any kind, ever.

Love to you all. Stay strong.

I definitely don't support this "war". I believe there has been no real concrete evidence just some smoke and mirrors. For the past month or so I've been hearing people say, " to just blow all the people (over there) up, we don't need them" etc. and it really makes me angry.
I don't think it's necessary to attack countries where the majority of the population is economically depressed. To be honest I think this whole thing is to distract from our current economic state. We're going to go in, bomb the leader, set up a new government and let the country sink so that we can control it's resources.

I'm sure WE have weapons of mass destruction, but it's okay for us to have them but no one else. If the UN came in to the US they would encounter the same thing. In this day and age we should never have to resort to such measures and I don't think we have exhausted all of our diplomatic options.

With that said I really do feel for the families of the troops and I hope they all come back safely.
Just my 2 cents! I believe that everyone is entitiled to their opinion on the matter.

I support the war. I support the soldiers. They are defending our rights! War has been here since the beginning of time. Yeah it is unfortunate, but we do not live in Utopia.
I heard someone on tv or the radio and they made a good point in regards to people worried about what we do to those terrorists that were caught in America(I can't remember the details), but people were worried how they were going to be treated and this person said," They are not American citizens, they do not have the same rights as us." Ok I'm sure I'm going to start an arugment now. But just so you all know the government wasn't doing any harm to these men, like reports suggested. But personally I don't see why we should treat terrorists niceley or with decency.

Currently on NPR (National Public Radio) they are discussing this very topic.

Check it out! :)

I din't read everyone's responses, but dissent is important. Especially in a time of war when we have to look at our actions so closely. Moral justification is not decided by a majority.

In a way, I feel that those that oppose war "support the troops" more than those people who support it. How much more support can you give than, "your life and the lives of your friends in the military are more important than invading this country"? I know if it were my Dad, brother, or sister (a girl from my chapter is in the Navy) over there I would be pissed as hell if I didn't think EVERY diplomatic way had been tried such that no unecessary lives were lost. Shouldn't we be mad and voice our opinions if we think this is the case????

Btw, I think we have a decent reason to go in and take out those weapons, but I don't think we have a good way to stop this war from happening again in another 10 years. I don't think we should act unless we have a plan to repair our relations with the countries and people in teh Middle East. I think that because in the end, more violence will beget violent reactions, and that is against any goal we have. The only way to stop terrorism or countries from breaking UN laws is to think long term.
-M

he he, more commentary.

Wait a minute.. the troops are defending our rights to what? Demand that rulers of other countries step down? Are they defending our rights to invade other countries when they have weapons they can use against us? Are they defending our right to go after any country we think may be harbouring US terrorists? Should a country have these rights?I don't know about you, but I don't think it's a "right" to be able to invade a country.

Ok, you have heard of Human Rights right??? Things we believe we are entitled to because we are human? Breaching the "social contract" or law requires taking away some rights. And taking away your right to freedom is the biggest one of all, and the most humane at the same time. You don't have to like someone, but I can't see a good arguement for the morality of beating and torturing. Granted, it makes sense not to extend the right to bear arms to a conviceted felon or a prisoned terroris, and in that sense, they don't have exactly the same rights. However, we don't guarantee our rights in the Consitiution because we are citizens, we do it because we are human. Being from another country does not violate *why* we are guaranteed the rights not to have cruel and unusal punishment. -M

Ok I obviously love this topic!
 

Smiley brings up an interesting point. If you are morally opposed to an action, and believe that others should be opposed as well on moral grounds, how can you support others with the opposite opinion? Walk another step further, and one has to ask, if you don't support them on moral grounds, can't you accuse each person who decided on that course of action of choosing an immoral path?

I was going to try and make the question concrete, but I can't think of a good hypothetical.
-hit me with your philosophy.
-M

Interesting delima isn't it. As a member of the military, you agree to obey all orders given you be competent authority -- whether you agree with them or not.

So, even if you think an order is immoral, you must, in theory, follow it.

But wait. Haven't a number of people tried to use that defense during war crimes trials?

So, how far "up" does that go. To the Commander-in-Chief? The Joint Chiefs? Secretary of Defense?

Bottom line for me is that it isn't fair to hold most service members in contempt -- or even the company and field grade officers.

I have a little more trouble when you get to flag officers and above.

That's my opinion, but it's worth no more than yours.

i was just talking to my mom. she is for the war. she was telling me about wars being in the bible and how i shouldnt make a judgement on something i dont know much about. (for those who believe what the bible says...for those who dont just bear with me) war is supposed to take place in the last days. my mom thinks bush is doing the right thing because saddam was already planning on attacks on the u.s. that may be justifiable but i just dont like the thought of killing people. that doesnt sit well with me. that is my opinion despite the fact my mother is trying to change it.

DeltAlum-
Very true! I had never even thought of war crime tribunals. Personally, I think there must be a limit to what orders people wll follow, and that each person needs to think about where that threshold is for himself or herself. But I also understand it's hard not to follow orders. You can get put in jail, and you can get kicked out.

Have you heard of the Milgram psych experiment wehre they asked people to "punish" other people by shocking them? They had a person stand behind a window looking at another strapped to some electrical wires. An authority figure told the person to shock the other one in the chair because they were bad. The people in the other room were actually actors for the experiment and pretended to be shocked. Most of the people shocked the other person at the highest voltage when told to do so, even though the dial said it was deadly. Very few people said they would not do that. They reapeated the experiment with puppies and the same thing happened.

Crazy, eh?
-M

I like puppies. Can I have a puppy?

Anyway, I oppose this war because diplomacy was not exaughested. It seems to me like Bush doesn't hold human life, even those of his fellow Americans, in very high regard by sending them to fight in a war that was posibly avoidable.

yeah, I want a puppy too. A golden retriver. ohhh, sooo cuuute!

My opinion (being something that only I can control and earn and can be easily dismissed by others) is that I don't support the war or the soldiers. What I do support is the right to live. Soldiers are trained to fight and possibly kill. (That's why they carry the BIG guns) I cannot support that. But I do support the lives of those soldiers that are out there and hope that they can come back upright.

And for those who say that Saddam is killing his people, here's a thought.....Why don't his people revolt? Many countries (including the U.S.) has had revolutions and though it may take time, the evil leadership are usually dealt with.

Again, this is my opinion which I own and no one can take away from me so there is no use trying :D

This was posed to me by one of my geriatric clients, concerning protests such as the Lake Shore Drive protest in Chicago. As you probably know, protesters held up the entire rush hour, and traffic was completely gridlocked for miles.

What if your mother-father-grandmother-grandfather-whomever lived in an apartment on Lake Shore Drive, and during this protest, had a heart attack or a stroke? One that is normally treatable with proper immediate care. No ambulance can get through; the traffic is completely gridlocked. Let's pretend Lake Shore Drive isn't ritzy, and doesn't have any helipads.

If that person dies, is it the fault of the protesters, on some level?



honeychile

Dear Smiley21,
Not only to I find your comment disgraceful, I also find it disgusting. What do you expect the troops to do, refuse to go? Thats known as "going AWOL" and they can get in serious trouble. (Not to mention that they will probably never be employed again). I feel as though your comments are not only anti-American but anti-HUMAN as well. I don't know if I agree with why we are at war, but like President Bush said (summerizing, not a direct quote), I'd rather us fight terrioism with trained Army, Navy, Air Force and Marine forces then with Firefighters, Police officers, doctors and nurses. If we don't take a stand now, September 11 will happen again.

My father served in the United States Army for 22 years...my boyfriend has been serving in the Army for 9 1/2 years. I have the upmost respect and love for both of them. I appreciate that they put their lives on the line for not only ME but for YOU as well every single day they were/are deployed. If my boyfriend dies, he will do so in an honorable fashion. He is fighting for not only Iraqi freedom but, on some level, our freedom as well. Eveyone is entitled to their own opinion, but I think that it is ludricious to say you are anit-troops.

Let the mud slinging begin....

I don't agree with why we are at war, and i've gone to an anti-war protest, but I too have a guy i care about somewhere over in the middle east...and he couldn't even tell me where he was going when he left. He wanted to go though. That, at the end of the day, is more inportant that any protest, and dissent, and any rally. He knew i didn't believe in the reasons he was going but that didn't change his mind. I've met several of the guys from his platoon, and there was not a single one who was afraid to go and defend this country, on the other hand they looked at it as something that needed doing, and they wanted to go so they could come home to the people they love. I know some people don't see our men and women overseas as defending our country and our rights, but that's what they believe they are doing. Because of that, I feel like I have an obligation to support our troops and this war. In the end, they are over there for us. I have been writing a letter to my friend, and it's hard to not include the things i see on the news because I have always talked with him about everything. the anti-war protests are something i can't even begin to write about because I want him to continue to believe that he is over there fighting for a cause. I don't want any of our troops to give up hope. If they hear about all the anti-war protests that are going on in this country, from all the people who claim they are "pro-troops" don't you think that that would be letting down the men and women who believe there are over there for us? No one likes the thought of our friends and family being killed, and we don't want poeple to die. We SHOULD want them to do what they desire and feel they need to do. Support is not mud slinging, it is not yelling that our troops are immoral, or protesting their actions at a time when they believe they are necessary. It is understanding that they are doing their jobs and respecting them for that.

Okay. I'm going to get off my soapbox now and stop my ranting. sorry i made you read all of that.

~OUlioness01

My $.02:

Unfortunately, the US has, for a very long time, made itself out to be the world police. Why? Well, maybe we're busy-bodies, but we're also a force that stands up for others.

To the anti-war people:
Have you ever lived under a tirant?
Do you know how the Iraqi civilians feel?
Do you have any clue what it is to live like that?

My guess is that most of you are going to answer no. Personally, I don't like bullies. I should hope most people don't either. That's part of the reason why we're over there fighting this war...because we stick up for what we believe in and it's about time we stopped making idol threats. How long was our country supposed to shake our finger at Iraq and say "No, no, Sadam...get rid of the weapons of mass destruction" like he's a misbehaving child? We needed to be take action, because most other countries weren't willing to look beyong their personal interests in oil to see what needed to be done.

You know, I don't really like Bush. But I give him a lot more respect now. He asctually took action. If he were out for approval ratings we'd still be waiting for UN inspectors and countries like France, who were just wasting time.

What would you suggest they do; pelt him with falafel balls??? :rolleyes:


* * * THE FOLLOWING IS NOT AIMED TOWARD ANY OF MY FELLOW GREEKCHATTERS * * *

Blaire: I have found that the people who protest most vehemently are the ones who don't have friends and family over there. *Not all, but in my experience most*. What is for us a legitimate concern for loved ones and a desire not to undermine their mission is for some of them just an intellectual exercise or even something to do for the day. (ie "Want to go to the skateboard park?" "nah, there's a big protest going on downtown. Maybe some of the girls will flash their boobies" "Dude! I am so there!!!" ) can't really blame them because I realize how easy it is to offer a trite solution when you're somewhat removed from the situation.

It doesn't matter what other people think, honestly. Your honey doesn't care about people blocking traffic in New York City. He cares about you at home thinking of him. And you know that I'm also thinking of you and him and praying for his swift and safe return home. So are millions of others.

DZLM,
Tracy :)

Sorry, but this is quite possibly the funniest thing I have heard all day! :D