Hazing Dogma/SigChiO MTV Fraternity Life
 

This is just an observation I made watching MTV's fraternity life... and I shoud tell you I'm a Membership Development Advisor for my sorority, and it's my job to help our Chapters put together POSITIVE, NON HAZING programs. I understand there is a big difference between pledging a sorority and a fraternity....but

Sigma Chi Omega is only 3 and a half years old. I think their pledges kidn fo suck and seem disinterested in the fraternity...but I also think that it's almost gratuitous hazing they have going on. They haven't even been around that long and they are yelling about tradition? These guys are brand new!!! How can they be so angry already? By angry I mean this frat should still be deciding what kind of an organization they are, etc. etc....

[/COLOR] Do they haze just because it's a fraternity and they think they are supposed to? It's like hazing dogma or something! I'm sorry but this frat is really playing into a lot of stereotypes.


although it was pretty funny when the pledgemaster yelled at the pledge, "Don't EVER blame your grandmother...it is never your grandmother's fault!!!"

At least I hope, since they are so new, their pledges wont' have too much information to memorize, resulting in less push ups for them to do.

After this semester I'd be surprised if Sigma Chi Omega was still at U. B.

Re: Hazing Dogma/SigChiO MTV Fraternity Life
 

You continue to think like that and you will form a huge generalization.

This local might be bad yes. But that doesn't mean other locals are the same. And that sure doesn't mean that nationals are not as bad or possibly worse. You often hear about the hazing incidents involving so and so chapter of so and so national.

Nationals are just smart enough to not put a chapter in this sort of situation. Most locals don't have that kind of guidance. Does that make them any less? No.

And to ask you a simple question, how many locals do you actualy know or have contact with? If you aren't a fan of locals because of what you see on MTV, I can do nothing but wow at that.

Well, the whole point of that email was about hazing, not locals...

I do know a lot of locals, my only real issue is I wouldn't join one because I think having a governing body that is a national organization is good for the longevity of any GLO, and when I go back to college, I like having a place to come "home" to, and I feel better knowing that it is likely to be around for years to come because of the assitance we get from Nationals.

:)

So if an org doesn't get assistance from a national they won't be around as long? OMG......yet another generalization in the every respect of the word. There are many a local that have existed longer than many a national chapter. There are quite a few in my state alone that have been around for 100 years +.

I don't think that a chapter of a national glo has a better chance of existing longer than a local. Look at all of the hazing issues with so many chapters of nationals closing. There is no guarantee.

I'm sorry to sound harsh but its true......

Just remember...every national was at one time just a "local."

OMG...

that post was NOT about locals, and you can relax I edited it out. And yes, I do think that there are very real benefits of being part of a National GLO. I know there are some very old locals. But it's difficult for newer ones; one of the best benefits is that you have rules and guidelines spelled out for you already, so that you don't have to make up your rules and governances the hard way; but trying things and finding out what works and what doesn't work.

All I'm saying is that I see very real benefits of being part of a National GLO... more so than being a local, and that's my feeling onthat, and I'm sticking to it!

LOL, why edit it? Be true to your statements..lol

I am very relaxed believe you me, the original post may not have been about locals, but in a sense it was by adding that at the end. You can stick with you want....it's your opinion and I respect that. I just feel that it is somewhat of a close-minded opinion. You stated yourself that you don't know many locals. As for a new local starting out, I think it's almost harder for a new chapter of a national to start out at times as opposed to a new local starting out. It's hard for any chapter to start out in today's society and I don't think that any can argue that point. Sometimes it's nice to be able to form and govern your own rules and I think people can agree with that too. It gives you a sense of "freedom" so to speak.


Seriously, this isn't an attack but I just feel that you have a one-sided view on the subject. People should really support the greek community as a whole, no matter affiliation, local, national, etc. After all, greek life is on the decline.....

I said I know A LOT of locals...I really do!

Maybe my opinion is close minded, but I'm basing it on what I've seen.

I edited my thing because I jsut don't feel that strongly about locals and it truly wasn't the point of that post, plus I didn't want everyone else who read it to take it teh same way you did when it wasn't my intention.

:)

Sorry, I read that you didn't know a lot of locals, that's my bad.

Yes, your opinion is close-minded without a doubt and "basing it on what you've seen" is a great way to form stereotypes and generalizations.

I decided to post the way I did because I don't want people to read that statement the same way you interpret it because there are many locals out there that are actually decent chapters.

But come on, if I stated that "I wasn't a big fan of nationals" I would never hear the end of it.


In all, I like to see people take a unified stance on greek life and the difference of organizations. When this doesn't happen, those that are looking to go greek can be greatly affected.

There is a lot of hatred of locals and I'll never understand it because there are many similarities between locals and nationals. They both do good, and they both do bad....there is no in between.....


/end

My position on Sigma Chi Omega. I don't think they'll be around after this seris on MTV. I would hope not anyway.

Welcome to the Damasa and Zephyr Show, starring Damasa and Zephyr.;)

Ouch, that's a bit harsh I think. What exactly do they do that makes you two dislike them this much?

At least they can agree on hating together :D


- RUgreek

Perhaps it's because they haze the crap out of their pledges, for starters. Which has an effect on the entire greek population.

Have you read the threads??? Have you seen the show?

Also judging from that official statement from UofB, i'd also be very surprised if they were still there next year.

I think the point that RUGreek is trying to bring up is that the SXO boys AREN'T technically hazing. Yes, by any national Greek organization's rules they would be hazing. However, check out the New York state laws:

http://www.stophazing.org/laws/ny_law.htm

According to those, no hazing is going on.

And since Sigma Chi Omega is a local, not a national, they have no national standards to adhere to.

So despite the fact that what they're doing may not necessarily be healthy, nice, or very good for Greek image -- it's not illegal.

I definately take issue with the NY law.... basically until someone gets hurt, it's not hazing.
Even so, it could still be interpreted as hazing. Just about anything could cause physical injury, especially physical activity. So, by interpreting the NY statute, either
a) it's not hazing until someone gets hurt. So if someone breaks an arm, stubbs a finger, etc. it magically could be considered nazing
b) someone could argue that any kind of forced physical activity could put someone at risk for substantial physical activity.

I do find it interesting that the NY statute doesn't mention anything about phychological effects. I want to look into other state's laws further for comparision when I have a bit of time (i'm in the middle of writing a huge paper right now, this is my quick break)

UB's hazing policy

Statement of Hazing
Hazing is defined as "any action taken or situation created, intentionally,whether on or off fraternity premises, to produce mental or physical discomfort, embarrassment, harassment, or ridicule. Such activities may include, but are not limited to the following: use of alcohol; paddling in any form; creation of excessive fatigue; physical and psychological shocks, quests, treasure hunts, scavenger hunts, road trips or any other activities carried on outside or inside the confines of the chapter house; wearing in public apparel which is conspicuous and not in normally good taste; engaging in public stunts and buffoonery, morally degrading or humiliating games and activities; and any other activities which are not consistent with fraternal law, ritual or policy or the laws and policies of the educational institution.
*FIPG (Fraternity Insurance Purchasing Group)

* All groups are required to follow FIPG policy or their national policy.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
While they may not be violating state law, they are violating their university's hazing code. As a member of their IFC, they are required to follow those rules. It'll be interesting to see what they do as the season goes on, but even though Sigma Chi Omega is a local, they still have to follow university rules.

i remember some writing in another thread that they WEREN'T part of IFC therefore they didn't have to follow IFC rules. Yes it looks bad on TV but technically they aren't breaking the law.

Sorry... i am confused by all the IFC/University/State rules... they are all different from what i read. But you would hope that SXO would have looked up the hazing laws before they showed it all on TV. :rolleyes:

they're listed under IFC organizations on the U Buffalo greek homepages

Besides the NY laws I do believe that there are federal laws defining hazing that may be stronger then NYs

I don't believe there are any federal anti-hazing laws, though I could be wrong.

kddani is right when she says that Sigma Chi Omega has to follow university anti-hazing rules. However, since they're a local fraternity, what happens if the university does deny their recognition? They'll probably simply go sub-rosa and continue to haze as much as they like, and then the university will have NO control over their actions whatsoever.

Yea, i've read the threads, seen the show; walked the walk, talked the talk....

I think people are confused about hazing here. Trust me, what these kids are going through (on t.v.) is not hazing. Push-ups and line-ups are hardly something I would call hazing.

Maybe the argument shouldn't be if they are or are not hazing... I think the whole hazing guidelines is a bunch of malarky. In my opinion, a more reasonable, rational, logical (or whatever pc word you use for "common sense") definition of hazing should be activities that wouldn't be considered o.k. under any situation (greek or non-greek). For instance, forced drinking, not o.k. under any situation. Physical violence/abuse - not o.k. under any situation. Now doing push-ups as part of a pledge program you voluntary accepted and can quit at any time? Or being yelled at for screwing up, please, take off your diapers and grow up. Hazing is causing harm to someone in my book, a little excercise and non-alcoholic fun never hurt anyone.

But enough about my views, overall I can't say these guys are breaking any real guidelines or rules, and if they are then everyone is. Throwing them out would be nothing more than a publicity stunt. Next thing you know you'll be telling me that giving them tests and grading them is hazing. This crap always gets way too out of hand, but honestly and seriously I don't think anything yet amounts to hazing or a reason to get pissed off at these guys.


- RUgreek

RUGreek may I kindly say...I think you need to update your views on hazing! Your book is wrong! Doing pushups and standing in a line up with a blinding spot light on your face being yelled questions at by brothers...I consider that hazing. And being forced to do pushups... if they brothers are going to haze their NMs they should at least try to be a bit more creative.

Anything that can cause emotional distress, humiliation, and physical discomfort--is hazing!

RUGreek may I kindly say...I think you need to update your views on hazing! Your book is wrong! Doing pushups and standing in a line up with a blinding spot light on your face being yelled questions at by brothers...I consider that hazing. And being forced to do pushups... if they brothers are going to haze their NMs they should at least try to be a bit more creative.

Anything that can cause emotional distress, humiliation, and physical discomfort--is hazing!

While some organizations do require a test for initiation, D Phi E also considers giving the NMs tests and evaluating them to be hazing. Though it doesn't really seem like a big deal, the approach to having an anti hazing sorority/fraternity truly must be all or nothing.

It's not my book, just my opinion. I know what the definitions of hazing are, I just don't agree with them. They go too far in some areas and too small in another.

I'm not going to convince you i'm right, but at the same time don't call me wrong. Hazing occurs all the time; unless it's dangerous I don't see a problem with it. Sorry :(


- RUgreek

RU,

I don't think you would find very many of us who don't believe that, if nothing else, the laws regarding hazing probably go too far, and are too ambiguous.

However, they are what they are, and whether you agree with them or not, we have to live by them or take the very real chance of doing grievous harm to our organizations.

Also, I believe S&S is correct that there currently aren't any Federeal anti-hazing laws -- but one has been recently introduced by a number of members of Congress.

To wit:

HR 1207 IH
108th CONGRESS
1st Session
H. R. 1207

To amend the Higher Education Act of 1965 to withhold Federal student
financial assistance from students who have engaged in hazing, and
for other purposes.

IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

March 11, 2003

Ms. WATSON (for herself, Ms. EDDIE BERNICE JOHNSON of Texas, Ms.
MILLENDER-MCDONALD, Mr. OWENS, and Ms. JACKSON-LEE of Texas)
introduced the following bill; which was referred to the Committee on
Education and the Workforce

------------------------------------------------------------------------

A BILL

To amend the Higher Education Act of 1965 to withhold Federal student
financial assistance from students who have engaged in hazing, and
for other purposes.


Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the
United States of America in Congress assembled,

SECTION 1. SHORT TITLE.

This Act may be cited as the `Hazing Prohibition Act of 2003'.


SEC. 2. LOSS OF STUDENT FINANCIAL AID ELIGIBILITY FOR HAZING.


Section 484 of the Higher Education Act of 1965 (51 U.S.C. 20 U.S.C.
1091) is amended by adding at the end the following new subsection:


`(s) LOSS OF STUDENT FINANCIAL AID ELIGIBILITY FOR HAZING-



`(1) SUSPENSION OF ELIGIBILITY REQUIRED- A student who has been
subjected to an official sanction for hazing, or for being an
accessory to hazing, shall not be eligible to receive any grant,
loan, or work assistance under this title during the period beginning
on the date of such sanction and ending after an interval of one year.



`(2) DEFINITIONS- For purposes of this subsection:


`(A) The term `hazing' means any assumption of authority by a student
whereby another student suffers or is exposed to any cruelty,
intimidation, humiliation, embarrassment, hardship, or oppression, or
is required to perform exercises to excess, to become sleep deprived,
to commit dangerous activities, to curry favor from those in power,
to submit to physical assaults, to consume offensive foods or
alcohol, or the threat of bodily harm or death, or the deprivation or
abridgement of any right.


`(B) The term `official sanction'--

`(i) means expulsion, suspension, probation, censure, condemnation,
reprimand, or any other disciplinary, coercive, or adverse action
taken by an institution of higher education or administrative unit of
the institution; and


`(ii) includes an oral or written warning made by an official of an
institution of higher education acting in the official capacity of
the official.'.


SEC. 3. REPORTING OF HAZING CRIMES TO STUDENTS.

(a) AMENDMENT- Section 485(f)(1)(E) of the Higher Education Act of
1965 (20 U.S.C. 1092(f)(1)(E)) is amended--


(1) by striking `and' at the end of clause (vii);

(2) by inserting `and' after the semicolon at the end of clause (viii); and

(3) by inserting after clause (viii) the following new clause:


`(ix) hazing;'.


(b) DEFINITION- Section 485(f) of such Act is further amended by
adding at the end the following new paragraph:

`(7) For purposes of this subsection, the term `hazing' has the
meaning provided in section 484(s)(2).'.


Looks like this was submitted just last week.

I think that bill looks like a great idea. Thanks for sharing it, DeltAlum! Federal fin. aid is withheld from those who commit other serious offenses, and I certainly think hazing is one, and I am SO sick of seeing it rewarded. This would actually impact my campus' hazing locals too, since they can still be found guilty. :)

RUGreek...

I need to mention I am not a collegian, I am a Membership Development Advisor for my sorority. Therefore...I do feel that your views on hazing are wrong because part of my job is to ensure that my Chapters are not hazing, and following D Phi E's Anti Hazing policy to the letter.

Maybe in some areas the law's are stringent, but there is a reason for all the rules and regulations.

Ultimately...my beef wtih Sigma Chi Omega is that they just make fraternities look like the negative stereotype. I sometimes, admittedly enjoy watching acts of blatant human stupidity (I'm a huge fan of MTV's Jackass...)--but not when MTV is claiming that what we are seeing is "Fraternity Life."

Kristen

Kristen,

I agree, MTV is just exploiting what everyone wants to see, the classic fraternity stereotype still going on in 2003. I know the rules say it's wrong to do these things, and I understand your position must be a strict one since you deal with many chapters, but some of the overbearing rules and wording for these hazing laws don't appear to work very successfully.

DeltAlum,

I've read the Hazing Prohibition Law, I also have reservations about giving that much power to a university (withdraw a person's financial aid based on accusations of accessory to hazing seems unreasonable), but it is a step in the right direction.

As confusing as my position appear to some of you, I am against hazing. When I finished pledging, I made a promise with my pledge brothers not to let what happened to us continue on. Was my life in danger, probably, but I made the choice to go through with it.

Anyone that uses alcohol or physical harm against another is wrong. Going further down the list, some activities are questionable as to being hazing or member-building activities. Serenading is humilating, but I don't think it's hazing. We could go on and on and on with this stuff and never accomplish anything.


Simple put, I understand why everyone believes the way they do, but some rules are made for political correctness and other are for enforcement. As long as it's safe & fun, then it shouldn't be an issue. However, MTV is just in it for the shock value and money, so there really is no debate on that side, it should never been done on camera or t.v.


- RUgreek