John Walsh Show: Prisoner's Rights, should they have any?
 

I was doing laundry and had the TV on and thought it was an interesting topic. What do you GC'ers think?

Just because someone is convicted of a crime does not mean that they automatically lose their humanity. In America we recognize that human beings have certain rights (with the exception of those in Guantanemo Bay:confused:). That's part of being an American.

I think prisoners are entitled to the bare minimum: meals, a comfortable place to sleep, health care, rehabilitation. I think they should have the opportunity to earn their GED, but not to take college classes. Prison is not supposed to be enjoyable.

I agree 100% with Killarney

I'd be curious to hear what "special privileges" these family members are discussing. Without knowing that, it's hard for me to say one way or the other. I think it's a great idea for inmates to be able to get education of any kind, and whatever mental health or substance abuse treament they need. They should also have access to weights and equipment for working out so they can stay healthy if they want. Eventually, most inmates are going to be released, and I would hope that we, as a society, would want them to be released as healthy, educated individuals.

If inmates don't have constructive things to do with their days, what do you think they're doing all day? I'll tell you, because I see it happen with my clients all the time when they're in county jail (where there are very, very few privileges of any kind) -- they get in fights, and sit around and do nothing, which is doing absolutely nothing to help them become better people after they are released. I'm not saying that it's the county's job to entertain them, but I do think we could definitely do more to try to help them become better people and law abiding citizens.

I'm a little annoyed by the statment that inmates "don't deserve the same privileges that free citizens enjoy." I'd like to hear more from whoever said that on the show. The same privileges? Good lord, inmates are LOCKED UP. They are living in a cell, eating when they are told to eat and do not have one of the most basic rights -- freedom, the right to go where they want and do what they want. IMHO, that alone is a pretty big deal. What more do these people want to take away from inmates?

And as a side note, to anyone who thinks that inmates should be treated more badly than they already are (keeping in mind that there are plenty of places, such as Cook County, Illinois, that have a long history of inmates being physically abused by guards and police) -- I would just say this: YOU could be a prisoner tomorrow. You could be falsely accused of a crime and put in jail. It's entirely possible. How would you want to be treated while you were there? What privileges would you want?

The 'special priviliages discussed on the show varied from small things like candy bars, sodas, and tv watching time to bigger things like being able to earn college credits, to even bigger things.

One example of the "bigger things" that Mr. Walsh talked about was an example of a man in the state of Illinois who murdered 7 nurses. While he was in prison, he decided he wanted a sex change, and the state of Illinois paid for his breast implants.

The same man also made the comment that his life in prison was way better than it was on the 'outside'.

For me personally, I could see both sides - on one hand, you have a human being in prison, so it's only right to treat them like a human being so I wouldn't think small things would hurt.. but on the other hand, some of these inmates are recieving much bigger things like college education for free while we have to pay for ours.

I guess there's two sides to every story. But I do really feel bad for the families of the victims that were on the show. I normally don't watch these types of shows, but since it was on and I had nothing better to do I figured why not :)

I'm not sure if this is the answer some people want to hear, but I'm on the fence on this one. If someone is guilty of a crime, there should be a debt paid to society.

However, I have a close friend who was the victim of a corporate conspiracy. He was framed and found guilty on testimony that was 100% perjury. While going through appeals, he is in prison. The state he lives in (AZ) has mandatory sentencing, so no matter what anyone said at sentencing, the judge had no discretion. He was screwed. The ones who REALLY were guilty got off scott free, not just for their original crimes, but for some world-class perjury as well.

So nowadays, I can't look at a story on the news, or a photo on TV or a magazine of someone in jail without wondering: "Are they REALLY guilty? Is it possible they were framed?"

Just some food for thought for those who think that throwing away all basic human dignity is a good way of exacting revenge of some sort on those in prison.

Adrienne (PNAM-2003)

I agree with Tracy: health care, decent food and shelter, the opportunity to get their GED, and most importantly, an atmosphere where rehabilitation is possible. You shouldn't go into prison and come out worse.

But cable TV? Sex changes? Sorry, no. If there's a group out there that is that concerned about the prisoner's right to get a sex change, let them raise the money for it, not the state.

My thoughts exactly. We are human and we make a shitload of mistakes. That's just human nature. Somtimes we make mistakes that we should be punished for but that doesn't mean that we should be stripped of everything. They should still have a right to receive the basics, like those stated in the first part of 33girl's post.

If you take all of that away from prisoners how in the world will they be able to rehabilitate?

See, I don't have sympathy for these people, except those that are wrongfully found guilty. But, we are humans and the system is not perfect- that being said..
If you are found guilty of a crime and sentenced to prison time I don't think you should get perks- except maybe books to read. If you can't read there should be tutors, but that is about it.

Pretty steep, I know, but if you CHOOSE to BREAK THE LAW and INJURE ANOTHER PERSON (or company), you have LOST THE RIGHT to those privilages that we law abiding citizens enjoy.
You VOLUNTARILY give up the right to have a candy bar and enjoy cable television because you broke the law. Maybe if we didn't baby inmates when they got out they would follow the law so that they don't go back to those places.
I am sorry that some people that are innocent end up in jail in conditions that they don't deserve, but that is a minority, I am sure, of the general prison population.

I get heated on this, so I think this should sum up my personal opinion-
THEY SHOULD GET THE BARE NECESSITIES BECAUSE THOSE A-HOLES GAVE UP THEIR RIGHTS WHEN THEY COMMITTED A CRIME- PERIOD!

I am ready to be flamed by this, but I know that this is the way I have always and will always feel. Why should I pay for some jack who raped/murdered/sold drugs to get a college degree, when mine had to be paid for by me and my parents! Because when/if he gets out he can do good in society- BULLSHIT! Eat my ass! I am not paying for you to free load while law abiding citizens don't get that right!
They get free health care, (also for their families), they get free meals, they get a bed at night, recreational activities, educational facilities. That is more than the poor in our country get, and I would hate to tell a single mother barely surviving that we won't pay for her medical bills, sending her into further debt, and we won't pay for her housing and her bed at night, but some guy that raped 10 women can have that...
Gets my blood boiling it does!

basics - food, shelter, water, clothing, etc...

cable tv, internet, college courses etc.....some of the non crime commiting populus don't even have these things why should convicts?

The prison system in this country is terrible. Almost all of women's prisons have problems with rape by male security gaurds.

On one hand, I agree with the majority of you -- sex changes while in prison? WTF? On the other hand, I agree with valkyrie -- someday, 99.9 percent of these prisoners will be released, and do you really want them coming out more embittered, angry, etc. than they went in due to the fact that they wasted years of their lives doing nothing but sitting around or fighting? I think more education can only be a good thing, although I'm on the fence about things like cable TV.

Really, though, I don't think it's a very important issue because most of our prisoners aren't getting adequate care as it is. There was a case here a couple years ago where an inmate died of an asthma attack (!) because the guards were too lazy to get his doctor so he could take his inhaler. Rape is a huge problem in jails and so is decent health care, and I'm sure there are other issues that we don't even know about.

Whatever happened to 'hard labor' -- only place I hear about it mentioned nowadays is in military prisons.

OK, I can go with certain privileges, such as getting an education such as a GED, college or a trade. But TV in the cells? Fuhgeddaboudit!

Some of these prison authorities need to take a few lessons from ol' Sheriff Joe Arpaio, of Maricopa County, Arizona (which covers Phoenix). Prison isn't a vacation camp.

I agree. However, our prison system needs a major kick in the butt (overhaul). We need to make up our minds...Is prison susposed to be a place of rehabilitation or a place to harbor criminals because there is a BIG difference between the two.

On another note, what does our prison systerm say about out society in general? Why is it fair that for the average person, there never seems to be any funds for increasing scholarships, education budgets, etc., but yet the funds somehow appear to be there for inmates seeking degrees? Why is it that so many of our country's citizens live on or below the poverty level, but yet our inmates receive state of the art facilities, meals, etc., probably live better in prison than they would outside. Ironic.

Although, I do believe that prison labor is the next pool of candidates that corporations will use to fill jobs at a ridiculously cheap rate. Many companies are using prison labor right now as we speak, for call centers, etc.

Anyways, as 33girl said, I agree that some things like boob jobs are excessive.

Well, then there is the fact that, while you do get all those benefits, you do still have to sleep with one eye open, and watch your shoulder every waking minute, for you never know when that big guy in the next cell wants to cornhole you.

Well . . . being part of the mainstream culture of the United States, not having grown up among an element that automatically has a greater acquaintance with crime, and having a bit of money as well as an education I am pretty much guarenteed that I won't have to do time or as at least as much time in prison if I commit the same crime as someone that didn't grow up as lucky as I am. Or at least most likely.

Which means I can afford to be hard nosed about prison accomodations lol, because I won't be faced with a lot of choices that will lead to one. At least hopefully.

However, I think most of us pull our opinions out of our asses lol. Myself included.

I mean, how many people in this room have been to prison? How many have even done a thorough visit? At least Valkyrie can say she knows and defends clients that probably tell her what prison is like.

How many of us can say the same?

So, we have never done in depth studies. We have never visited these places or stayed there. In fact the vast majority of us don't even know someone that has been in jail well enough to have asked them in detail what the experience was like.

And yet, we will perrenially comment on posts like this how terrible it is that Prisoners live lives of luxury and all the advantages we wish we could have. Although some people have the decency to qualify their opinion by saying "if prisoners live lives of luxury".

It just makes me chuckle.

Oh wait. I wasn't finished ;)

I actually know some people that have spent time in jail. Some are even friends. Not being a snob. Oops shock on GC since a lot of you come across kind of spoiled.

They were pretty matter of fact about the way jail is, and it sounds pretty bad.

I don't know where your inmates go, the Jail Hilton, but the ones I spoke to didn't have the option of college classes. Or a trade. They certainly didn't have TV's in their cells. Internet access? Please!

Now there are some jails where you can have more stuff . . if you pay for it. And buy it through the prison system. No Discount Store prices for you lol.

And there are both different jails and different levels of jails. Some are 23 hour lock down people. That means you only leave your cell 1 hour a day for some excercise and your meals are slid into the cell for you.

If that is luxury to you, well you grew up poorer than I did.

Generally prison rights people will show you a montage of the worst prisons, and the Big Stick Justice people will show you a montage of the best perks.

This is just good politics. I hope all of you are at least educated enough by now to know that what people say is rarely the whole truth?

Or are some of you still so naive you believe government press releases as gospel?

The prisons aren't luxurious enough. Prisoners should have more rights, therefore WE can commit more crimes and get pampered in the prisons.

Go James!
 

Ok, I too know people who have been in jail AND prison. I did community service (voluntary I assure you!)in one teaching inmates to read. It is NOT comfortable. It is NOT nice, It is NOT friendly, It is NOT enjoyable.

One lady I was teaching had to wait THREE days to get a SINGLE aspirin for her MIGRAIN. For those of you whoo have suffered a migrain you know what I mean I say I'd rather be dead than have one for three days.

Another was having severe stomach pains and couldn't get out of bed for a week. They just gave her alaxitive about a week later. Three months after she got out the same thing happend and it turned out to be an ovarian cyst rupture.



The food, not decent at all. The reason why candy bars and cokes and chips and stuff are for SALE ( the family of the inmate puts money in an account for them) is because the meals they are served are slightly less then minimal. A grown man could not honestly live on the three SMALL meals they are provided. They bargain with their people. One of the guys I taught had moremoney in his account and pretty much ate one meal a day from jail and had snack the other two because the food actually made him sick. So he auctioned off his food to other inmates who did not have money in their account and were really hungry. This was not a bad jail either. it was a fairly decent county jail as far as jails go.

And the guards. Ever met one. They are one step away from being inmates. They are not educated hardly at all (hello they are prison guards-you don't even need a highschool diploma to be one and they GIVE YOU A GUN) These guards are nasty, about as uneducated as the inmated from how I hear them talk, sadistic (whi says i want to be a prison guard when I grow up?) Most of the guards i encountered were so nasty-and i was there to help! Most were military basic training failures/ drop outs or people who tried to get into the police acadamy and were rejected. ANYONE can get a job as a prison guard. It pays less than a teacher, less than a policeman. Anyone heard of "power tripping?"

The reason Many (not all) are in jail is because they can;t read, a life of crime is what they LEARNED from there parents and they honestly didn;t know much better.

Now they do need to pay their time. Agreed. but it is so much cheaper to educate than incarcerate. if they are not educated they will be a burden on society forever. The majority of people incarcerated (FACT-not a made up statistic) have below a 4th grade reading level. Crime is all they are qualified to do. Teach them to read and you solve half (not all) your problem.

What they really ought to do is make all people on welfare get a shot of depo prevera before they can have their monthly check. that would eliminate a lot of the slime out there.

Remember that drinking a beer was once a jailable offense in our country. you can't jusdge everyone by the same standards. A person in jail for getting in a bar fight doesn;t exactly desearve the same punishment as a serial killer.

Also, the reason why people in jail don't revolt is because they do have something to do. You have to keep people busy in order to keep them behaved.

And they do work. That food ain;t catered that's for sure. they clean it, fix all the meals, do all the landscape, wash all the clothes, work in the library, go out on work detail picking up garbage etc. They do not lounge around in the sun all day playing vollyball. And as far as the mens jails go-try not being able to sleep at night because people want to kick your ass. You think racism is bad in the real world? Try going to jail. Blacks HATE whites and the whites gotta stick together to stay alive and vice versa.

Yes they belong there. But you have to make it livable. NOT enjoyable, but livable.

And if you are in JAIL (not prison) the cost of your meals is added on each day to your court fees and fines so when you get out jail gives you a bill and you have to pay it on time or you go back to jail as a violation of probation.

Now the child molesters and stuff like they-rest assured, jail has it's own form of justice if you know what I mean. Jeffrey Dahmer didn;t last long. The inmates killed him.

I've talked to a great deal of former prisoners over the years, as I've been unfortunate enough to have known people pretty well who ended up there.

It isn't a picnic - it isn't luxury, it isn't a walk in the park, at least not for those I've had contact with.

I don't think that prisoners are getting off easy; but that's just me.

Re: Go James!
 

Are you sure about the gun thing? When I tutored prisoners at Western Penitentiary back in college, the guards didn't carry guns because of the chance of a massacre if an inmate got hold of it.

Funny you say that they should be entitled to health care when no one in the US has that as a right. We are so backwards!!!

For the record: Prison is not enjoyable for anyone. Things like college classes, books and gyms are provided so the people there can build a future for themselves when they get out. We want to make people who commit crimes not commit them in the future, right? Treating them like shit and not giving them any rights is not the way to do that.
-M

ps- Amen Blue Violet!
edited to add... all the "luxries" we hear of are not normal at all. The guy who said prision was better than the outside is probably 200% mentally ill.

Well, you really have to give them healthcare. To do otherwise could be construed as "cruel and unusual punishment"

Don't get me started on the health care crisis! lol

Re: Go James!
 

Did you really just say this? That the reason that may but not all are in jail is because they can't read? And that they learned a life of crime from their parents? OMG I have seen it all.

That has got to be one of the, you know I won't even say it, but what a generalization.

True dat on teh health care issue (and that is from someone who works within the financial aspect of healthcare).

My post was just to point out the irony of it all. How we as a country need to decide if prision is going to be a place of rehabilitation or just a place to keep criminals way from society in general.

I also wanted to ^5 the person that posted about any of us becoming a prisoner. It can happen. All it takes is something like a someone unexpectedly darting out in traffic and before you can react it, you hit him/her....now you are on trial for murder facing prison. Yes, you...with your clean record and all. Granted, it was a total accident and you did nothing wrong, but there you in an orange jumpsuit are standing in a court of law.

More wisdom from James!
 

Dude, you rock my world. The stuff you say makes mad sense. It's very easy to be tough on crime when no one you know has ever gone to jail, and you're sitting pretty because even if you do get arrested for a crime you commit, chances are your race/class/family connections (pick one) are going to prevent you from doing hard time.

Prison is not a pretty thing. Those horror stories you hear of cable TV and boob jobs? Those (and someone with more legal experience have more insight) are the rare rare exception, not the rule. For all we know, the prisoner in question was diagnosed with gender dysphoria before he went into prison--and that the sex change was simply part of the treatment (it is, you know).

Since when do most criminals learn a life of crime from their parents? Since when are they illiterate? :eek: Also, for being a prison guard, you must have AT LEAST a high school diploma or its equivalent. Some even have certificates in criminology. See what falsehoods circulate about the penal system?

To prevent recidivism (which the American prison system doesn't really do), prison must be a place of rehabilitation. And, to rehabilitate prisoners to become productive members of society, there are some things we have to offer, such as a high school diploma and vocational education.

And to the person who suggested a shot o' Depo for welfare recipients?:eek: Please don't make me go on about forced sterilization for poor women...a not so sunny side of American women's history...just because someone is born to a parent in poverty doesn't make them "slime". :rolleyes:

Ah and how we can ever relate this to an internet chat site, hrm, let's see, GREEKCHAT maybe?!

:)

You're talking about Richard Speck who murdered eight young student nurses in Chicago. Speck died in prison in the 1990's from a heart attack. After his death, videotapes were found of him using drugs, showing off his breasts, and having sex. He said of his time in Statesville Prison, "If they knew how much fun I was having in here, they would turn me loose." There was a national call for prison reform at the time.

I agree that when one has been convicted of a crime and is sentenced, they have not lost their humanity. Their basic needs must definitly be met. Food, clothing, proper healthcare, whether it be physical or mental.
I feel that those that have smaller sentences should be rehabilitated. I think they should have the opportunity to earn their GED if they need to. However, they should not be able to get a college education on the backs of the tax payers. If they want to go to college after they are released they should work hard and apply like everyone else. I feel they should work while in prison. They should have the opportunity to gain skills that will help them once they are released.
Now for those that are serving life sentences should not have those same kind of privileges. I'm sorry, but if you're not EVER getting out, you don't need a college education. If you really want it, you can pay for it yourself! You don't have any money?! We'll find you a job you can do in prison and you can save up to pay tuition.
The fact of the matter is, prision or jail should never be better than the life you had on the outside. Once released, I would like to hear them say that prison was hell, and that they never want to go back. I don't ever want to hear any prisioner, whether it's 1 or 100 say that they had a better life in prison than they did on the outside.

Naw...accidents won't be the only reason if a GCer becomes a prisoner one day...there are some morally apprehensible :p people on here.

To make prison a hell you would have to shorten the stay. You can tell that politicians invent jail sentences with no regards to either common sense or how the mind works.

5 years is a long time. 10 years is an awful long time. You can get 20 years in prison for having 200 hits of Ecstasy on you, something extremely common in the club scene. If you are in a fairly worldy chapter with clubbers, chancers are you have E-users in your chapter.

If you put someone in prison long enough to become used to it, they lose some of their fear for it. If it was terrible and short term, you would have more people that truly feared it.