Why are there no black members in Phi Kappa Psi? Another view
 

Deliberate decisions (Julius Alexander)
Two minority students who chose to rush Panhel and IFC houses recount their different experiences in the Greek system

By Jennifer Leopoldt
March 04, 2003
When Julius Alexander arrived at Phi Kappa Psi fraternity for a Rush Week event in January 2002, he assumed the dinner wouldn't be any different from others he had attended at the house during the fall. He certainly didn't expect the "total surprise" that members would throw at him by the night's end.

"They sprang a bid on me -- I wasn't expecting it," said Alexander, a Weinberg junior. "It wasn't on my mind that I would join."

Alexander had gotten to know fraternity members through attending house events with his friend Jawdat Sha'Sha'a, a Phi Psi member.

"I figured he would like it," said Sha'Sha'a, a Weinberg junior. "He just kind of fit well."

Before deciding to join, Alexander said he had to think about his own feelings about fraternities and how his friends and family would react.

"And of course there was the whole race issue," he said. While Alexander found Phi Psi welcoming to a minority, he encountered unexpected resistance at home, where family roots run deep in the nation's traditionally black fraternity system.

Alexander grew up in Oak Park, a western Chicago suburb. His relatives often told him about their experiences in the historically black Greek system, which is governed by the National Pan-Hellenic Council. Phi Psi was just a "traditionally white fraternity," according to Alexander's family.

Alexander said he accepted Phi Psi's bid on the assumption that if he didn't like the fraternity, he could just drop out.

In the frenzy of his first week as a pledge, Alexander didn't have a chance to tell his family the news. When he finally told his mother he had accepted the bid, he could immediately tell from her voice she was disappointed.

He said his mother didn't "go into a rage of fury" about the bid, but she did do something that caught him off guard: She threatened to stop paying his tuition.

"That was pretty much the end of the argument," said Alexander, who then decided to depledge. "I'm a big mama's boy."

While in college at Illinois State University, Alexander's mother had helped her friends establish a chapter of Alpha Phi Alpha, a historically black fraternity, and her opinions about fraternities were well-known.

"From the stories that she kept telling us over the years, it was kind of implied that when you get to college, if you join a fraternity, it had better be the Alphas," Alexander said.

Although he said there were no hard feelings when he told Phi Psi members he was depledging, he has not spent much time with the group since his decision.

"It would be cool if we were a little closer than what we are now because they're a bunch of cool guys," he said. "But stuff happens."

Alexander said he thinks his mother was biased against Phi Psi because of "preconceived notions" about partying and racism in fraternities.

Daniel Williams, a close friend of Alexander's who spoke with the family during the situation, said he didn't think Alexander's mother overreacted

"She used (the threat) just to show him how strongly she felt about it," said the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign student.

Alexander said his brother Jaris, now a sophomore at UIUC, shared his mother's concerns.

"You can never be 100 percent sure being a black male in a traditionally white frat," Alexander said his brother told him.

"To some extent there will always be a voice in the back of my mind as to whether (fraternity members) really want me here because I'm Julius or they want me here because I'm Julius and I'm black."

Current Phi Psi President Paul Turner declined to comment on behalf of the fraternity.

Alexander said many of his black friends who questioned his initial choice were glad when he depledged.

"They were relieved, but it wasn't like they were high-fiving each other and saying, 'Yes! Julius is not joining a white frat!'" he said. "I think they didn't want to see another black guy become a token in a fraternity."

Family members also seemed relieved when Alexander decided not to remain in Phi Psi, he said. When he first told them about the bid, relatives started saying, "You don't have to join my fraternity, but at least join a black frat instead of a white frat," or even, "Join a black fraternity or nothing at all."

Alexander said he sometimes discusses it with his family. Over the summer, his mother and she consented that he should be able to do what he wants with his time in college. Still, he said he probably would not look at the fraternity system again.

Despite strides in communication with his family members, Alexander said he did not want to ask them to speak with The Daily.

"This topic is still a touchy subject in the family," he said.

Talking about the issue with his family made Alexander realize that race plays more of a role in life's choices than people might assume, he said.

"I guess it's kind of sad because on one hand you grow up in a household where your parents are telling you to be more diverse, to open yourself up to new things," Alexander said, "but there are still certain subjects where race plays a role above being diverse, above learning new things."

I hear that's often the case. I invited a friend of mine to a rush party.

He happens to be black.

He explained to me that he probably would take me up on something like that but for him it wasn't that simple.

I'm sure there's plenty of discrimination on BOTH sides around the world but for some reason I think traditionally white fraternities get a bad rap on the issue of diversity. It's not all our fault.

I'd be curious to know if anyone can explain why this is? Do NPHC-type organizations feel threatened by NIC/NPC types opening their doors to everyone regardless of skin color?

Ok, so as much as I respect Alexander's feelings and his decision, this article really, really bothers me...

I know that in most of the US, racism is still a huge problem, esp. in the South, and that fraternities are still considered to be "traditionally white" organizations. But being from Southern California and growing up in a hugely diverse area, this kind of thing really bugs me.

For those of you who don't know, the University of California is probably one of the most diverse state-wide university systems in the US (I would think Texas would be similar), and race is often a hot topic at all UC campuses, but especially the ones in the SoCal area. UCR is the fourth most diverse campus in the nation, and the most diverse of all the UC schools, and I am so proud of that.

Fall 2002 ethnicity figures (does not include those who declined not to state):
African American: 5.7%
Asian American: 42.2%
Chicano/Latino: 23%
Native American: 0.5%
White: 23%
Other: 1.6%

Yes, race issues still exist on my campus. The majority of students feel that Greek Life is a "traditionally white" concept, even though 19 out of the 33 social Greek-letter organizations (including NPC, IFC, NPHC, and other multi-cultural GLOs) consider themselves Ethnic/Cultural organizations BEFORE considering themselves to be a Fraternity/Sorority. And unofficial figures that have measured the percentage of ethnic diversity within NPC/IFC organizations have shown percentages that correspond almost exactly to the percentages throughout the entire school.

So, with all that off my mind, this article is still bothering me... Alexander expressed no interest in joining an NPHC organization, or a black fraternity in general throughout the article, so maybe he was actually looking to break the diversity lines by joining a "traditionally white" fraternity. What bothers me most is his mother's reaction to his acceptance of a bid to Phi Psi. If I was the mother of a minority student, and he was extended an invitation to break through the color barriers, there is in no way I would view it as just adding a "token" to an organization. I would be proud that a group of men are willing to take a shot at diversity within their organization, and decided to let my student take the first step.

I understand the reason why multi-cultural organizations tend to rarely have members from other ethnicities, but doesn't that promote a double standard here? I mean, if people are going to constantly accuse NPC and IFC organizations of being "traditionally white" and unwelcoming of non-white races, couldn't the same be said for NPHC which is "traditionally black," or for organizations like Alpha Kappa Delta Phi, Inc. and Lambda Phi Epsilon, both "traditionally Asian-American" organizations?

This double standard is still so out of whack... I give so much credit to organizations with a "traditionally ethnic" background that recruit and boast members of a different race... At UCR, there are a few cases such as this (specifically that the former President of Latinic Societas Unitas, a Latino organization that operates like a sorority, was 100% Chinese... ), and I give them credit for stepping over the race barriers.

I know that many of you will not agree with me because of cultural differences and I know a lot of you are in the South where a race divide still exists in most areas, but seriously... think about it. Isn't the point to expand in all ways possible, including through ethnic diversity of members? It's not fair to Alexander that his mother was, in my opinion, extremely biased and shallow. She should let her son do as he pleases, try new things, and experience life without her weighing him down. It's people that can't open up their minds like that who are making it just that much more difficult to have peace...

K... sorry to vent, but this riled me up... I'll get back to my homework now.

I always suspected there were two sides to this issue. Afterall, parents (even if they won't admit it) tend to hope that their offspring will grow up and hold the same things dear that they do.

It's a shame, though.

I've joked that I would stop paying my daughters' tuition if they didn't join Delta Zeta, but I'd never actually DO that! lol

Re: Why are there no black members in Phi Kappa Psi? Another view
 

This really disturbs me. It's the same as my mother's threatening to stop paying my tuition if I were to join an NPHC or multicultural sorority. If my family said, "Join a white sorority or nothing at all," that would just be over the top and there would be so much criticism from all sides. It's a shame that these double standards persist.

gphiangel624, please cut the "especially in the South" remarks. News flash... some parts of the South have made more progress in race relations than places in the North, Midwest (where this story seems to come from) and, yes, even Southern California. Of course, we in the South have a history of race relations problems, and most of us here would be the first to admit that we still have work to do to improve race relations. But the "at least it's not as bad here as it is in the South" attitude does get a bit tiring.

And yes, the response of Alexander's mother bothered me, too. But I think this is much deeper than NIC fraternities being "traditionally white" organizations and the desire for diversity, and probably has more to do with the role that the Great Eight/Divine Nine have played in African-American culture. I would be interested to hear/read the thoughts and reactions of members of the Divine Nine.

The mother might of been "racist," but my cousin's father and aunt told her that they wouldn't help her financially if she joins the sorority that I'm apart of now. They didn't say that they were going to pay for her tuition, but they made it clear that they didn't want her to join my sorority. It wasn't because it wasn't a black sorority, but it was because it wasn't in the divine nine. The divine nine has a lot of historical significance and prestige in the black community and there aren't many black students entering college that never heard of at least one black sorority or fraternity. So when black people step out of what what is known, many black people have a problem with it. Besides that, why would you want you child to join something that has history of discriminating against your race? Even though things have changed a lot, most parents haven't been on campus recently to know that.

Here's a question...

Are there any GLO's that are trying to become part of NPHC now? If NPHC membership was conferred on them, would the perception of them change?

Sorry, I know that's a very open-ended question.

Yes, doors have been opened for us, but that only because someone had to KICK them open. Don't think that we got any favors. And while you are sitting around thinking that things are soooo different these days, NPC/IFC orgs. are still having parties where its members show up in blackface. Oh, and let's not forget those off the hook "ghetto fab" parties, but I'll digress from that for a minute. :rolleyes: Why would any minority want to be a part of orgs. that make fun of them?

As gphiangel stated, no, Alexander didn't directly express interest in an NPHC org., but he never expressed interest in a "traditionally white" fraternity either. More or less, he was caught up in the moment/excitement of it all and decided to go for it. If you look at the article, he stated that he "accepted Phi Psi's bid on the assumption that if he didn't like the fraternity, he could just drop out." He wasn't trying to break barriers and claim a bid on behalf of all African-American men, he was just doing something that he thought would be fun.

I don't see a problem with what the family of this young man said. The problem is that everyone that is NOT a minority is quick to jump up and say how "racist" his family seems to be or what you would do if your child decided to "think outside of the box" (my selection of words). However, unless you have been/are a minority, you have NO earthly idea what it is like. I don't know about IFC/NPC orgs., but NPHC membership is a lifelong commitment. You would want to make sure that you make the right choice. Automatically everyone is attacking his family for what they say/feel, but some of you know that your families would act the same way. It's the same as if you dated/married outside of your race. And please don't trip because I HAVE read the interracial dating thread.

Everyone? Generalizations don't seem very helpful, or accurate, here.

As for me, I didn't say that the family sounded "racist," nor did I mean to imply it. I said that his mother's response bothered me. I said that not because I thought it sounded racist, but because I thought it sounded controlling and indifferent to her son's opinions.

As someone not part of any minority group, I agree completely. That's why I said I was interested in hearing the reactions and thoughts of members of the Divine Nine.

IMO, the Divine Nine is VERY significant historically in African American society. It was the beginnings of the "Divine Nine" that gave African Americans an opportunity for brotherhood/sisterhood and comraderie and support for each other at a time in which it was difficult to survive in the "white" education system. For example, African Americans at some institutions, if not all during the early 1900's were not allowed to take advantage of a school's educational amenities and resources available to white students - they could not stay on campus and had to spend hours traveling back and forth, where white students were able to live on the campuses and had resources readily available to them. The first African-American fraternity, Alpha Phi Alpha Fraternity, Incorporated, started out as a study and support group for the students at Cornell University to aid in keeping the few African-American students left in school because they were constantly faced with educational and social racial prejudices. The success of this fraternity blazed trails and paved the way for the other eight org's that were developed after it.

With that said, I don't believe that there is a double-standard here. I have seen (and in a few cases, actually know) white members of NPHC organizations, male and female. These organizations, in most cases that I have read, indicate that they are predominately black - this does not mean that they do not accept white members, or are racist membership is open to ANY QUALIFIED MEMBER, and being African American is not a qualification. As far as Julius' mother, I believe that her time and effort in helping continue the legacy of Alpha Phi Alpha Fraternity by aiding in starting a chapter has a deep significance to her, as well as the HISTORY of all of the NPHC orgs. I'm sure that if Julius decided on any of the "Divine Nine" fraternities, she would have been satified just as well. Now threating to not pay the tuition is extreme, however I think that she said that just to show how strong her feelings were on the subject, not because she didn't want her son to join a "traditionally white" fraternity.

With the significant strides and trails blazed by these NPHC organizations for the almost last 100 years or so, who WOULDN'T want to be a part of that, or at least EXPLORE the option?

Sorry for the long post...:cool:

I had a long and (I believe) thought-provoking answer to this thread.

Then I trashed it at the last minute.

I don't want to be called a racist for having a hard time understanding what looks very much like a double-standard that has no place in the 21st century. That's something that no minority person can understand.

I guess it's part of life that there's always going to be people stuck in a rut over race, one way or the other. Not very encouraging. Multiculturalism is a multi-way street: if one person/group/etc doesn't want to be involved, everyone suffers in the long run.

Adrienne (PNAM-2003)
:(

There are plenty of non-african americans in NPHC organizations (Eleanor Roosevelt is a long-time member of Alpha Kappa Alpha). This isn't a recent trend, but has been the case for 30 plus years.

Why is the fate of this fraternity based upon this ONE African American male? I think if people didn't spend so much time putting on a dog and pony show of their minority members (i.e. Hey, we've got ONE minority...now we are DIVERSE!), and just went on about things "business as usual" (i.e. letting your record of service, sister/brotherhood speak for itself), then maybe more minorities would feel more CONFIDENT about joining a NIC/NPC organization (and not feel like an interesting piece of furniture). :mad:

I say CONFIDENT because in general, people are ALWAYS going to have something to say about what you do. :rolleyes: You can't run you life on the opinion of others. To me personally, he seems to have such a laisez-faire attitdue towards the whole thing so I don't think it was that important to him to join this fraternity anyway.

yet another example
 

While I understand the mother's desire for her son to carry on her tradition (after all, don't we all hope our children will do the same), I find it sad that people you love will put pressure on you to make "their" decision. I have had the opportunity to witness a similar situation within our sorority. We had a lady accept a bid to our sorority but asked that we keep it quiet until she had a chance to share the news with her friends. None of us thought anything about it until we had our first letter day on Monday (bids were accepted Friday morning). She was hesitant to wear her letters and didn't want to go out on campus that much. Later that night she shared her story with the chapter. She was the first in her group to join a "white fraternity" and she was being pressured because her friends wanted her to join a traditionally black sorority. She was up-front with us and them that she felt more a part of the sisterhood with ADPi even though some of her best friends were part of the other group. Most of the members of the other organization stopped speaking with her. A few remained her friends and tried to support her (in private) with her decision. Several members of the other group did their best to show EVERYONE their displeasure in her decision. She had nasty phone calls, notes, and even public threats when they would see her. It was a really hard time for her and caused her a lot of pain, so much so that she ended up transferring. To her, the sorority was important in her life and nothing could be done to change that. She remained with the chapter through initiation and transferred the following semester, thus taking Alumna status. She still keeps in touch with the chapter and the local Alumnae organization and swears it was the best thing she could have done because she knows who her true friends are (regardless of race).

Again, I understand expressing a desire for someone to join specific organizations, I do not understand why people would be so mean at someone who REALLY wants to step outside those lines. This lady is a GREAT person and an awesome asset to ADPi. She remains active as an Alumna and embodies the beliefs of the sisterhood. Why anyone would want to take that away from someone is beyond me. She has gone on to talk to a lot of chapters about race issues and race relations and has been a driving force in uniting organizations on several local campuses. She has been instrumental in getting organizations to work together for the common good of the community regardless of the letters on their shirts and/or the color of their skin. She, in my opinion, is what the Greek system is all about.

Having one minority member is better than having none, would you agree, it shows an attempt at diversity.

I think the problem here is that a lof of historically white organizations actually do try to segregate and diversify the chapters they belong to, but when a situation like this comes to light, people tend to get discouraged.

We face this a lot on our campus. There is a lot of pressure on minority rushees from the BGLOs when they decide to rush a WGLO. It's almost like they are being looked down upon. Kind of like why is he/she rushing a white organization when the should be with us.

This is why this is such a "hang-up" situation. It's not about having just "one" minority member. It's the fact that many wglos do actually try to recruit minorities and a lof of these minority rushees that happen to show some sort of interest in a wglo end up depledging. I think it's mostly due to some type of pressure that is in a way related to this article. (This is form my experience on my campus.)

It gets frustrating when a historically white org does try to recruit minorities and they end up depledging due to pressure, much like the individual in the above article. In the end it shows that many of the "white frats and sororities" are still segregated and aren't diverse when some are actually making an attempt to do so.

One problem I think would arise is that the organization would be blasted for having a "token" member, which I think is wrong, but it could arise......

My house actually at one point had more minorities in it than caucasians. But we didn't point that out to everyone....it just kinda happened that way, and we all just went about our business as Delta Sigs.

Personally, when I was an undergraduate, if I saw the black members of NPC/IFC still involved in the black community then I think that people wouldn't have a problem with them joining what some call a "traditionally white sorority/fraternity." When I say "involved" I mean attend functions that are sponsored by groups like the "Black student Union" or the Divine Nine then I think black people wouldn't such a big problem. I have no idea what other groups the lady that valpogal99 spoke about was involved in, but a lot of black people that I saw involved in the NPC/IFC sometimes act as if they were ashamed to be black and had nothing to do with black people. Sometimes it looks like the person is turning their backs on their community. Maybe if more minority NPC/IFC members spoke out about how they are still proud of their race no matter what organization they are involved in, less people would have a problem.

Very true, but it's either a possible "token member" fraternity or it's a segregated, racist white fraternity. It's almost as if there's no way to win. It's almost as if there is no in between.



The one possibel "in between" that I can think of would be to pledge a number of minorities to get passed all of the above, but it can be hard at times to pledge even one minority. And in the case that your org has a minority join, yes, they could be labeled a "token member." But who labels that person the "token?" Is the the fraternity itself. Or is it other minorities looking at the fraternity with one minority member? Perception is everything in this case. What a token is to one person could be the beginning of desegregating a chapter. And in the end, everyone is entitled to their opinion.

>>>gphiangel624, please cut the "especially in the South" remarks. News flash... some parts of the South have made more progress in race relations than places in the North, Midwest (where this story seems to come from) and, yes, even Southern California. Of course, we in the South have a history of race relations problems, and most of us here would be the first to admit that we still have work to do to improve race relations. But the "at least it's not as bad here as it is in the South" attitude does get a bit tiring.<<<

Thank you Mystic Cat. I was going to say the same, but you said it better. I live in the South, and believe it or not, we actually manage to live side by side with all minorities without daily riots or race wars. Indeed, there is bias in the South. There is also bias in California.

I will definitely agree that there is a double standard here. NPHC organizations are rarely singled out for being "racist" because they only have a handful of non-black members. Yet NPC organizations are constantly picked on for their "inherent racism" because they have few minority members.

Contrary to popular opinion, 99.5 percent of historically white organizations do not throw ghetto fab parties, dress in blackface, or hold mock "slave auctions." Most of us became racially de-segregated over 50 years ago. The overwhelming majority of us would LOVE to have more diversity in our chapters. But, as many people who have replied to this thread have mentioned, minorities aren't joining -- and the ones who are are often pressured or even threatened unless they drop. I fully respect a black woman's desire to join an NPHC organization instead of an NPC organization if that's where she feels more comfortable. However, if she joins an NPHC organization and then complains about how it's the NPC's fault that we're still so "racially segregated," that's when I start to get annoyed. There's only so much that NPC sororities can do to become more diverse if those of different races aren't going to join.

Actually, depending on the circumstances, I might DISagree. If the org is letting a minority through SIMPLY to have that ever-popular token, then I would disagree.

See, what most non-minorites fail to realize is that DIVERSITY in and of itself is not a suitable goal. Diversity only implies a DIFFERENCE...not necessarily a pluralism or a coequality. So when you say that your org. is DIVERSE, to me, that means nothing really. It is just something that looks good on paper.

No one is saying that the guy's family is RIGHT. But don't call it a "double-standard" when you KNOW most of your families, and most white families in general, would feel the SAME way if their child told them they wanted to pledge a BGLO.

Do you know this for a fact? Have you met "most white families" personally?

*My* parents/family never have a problem with who I spend my time with or what organizations I join based on race. How do you know they're the exception rather than the rule?

Saying "most white families in general" is just as unacceptable, IMHO, as saying "most black/hispanic/arab/whathaveyou families in general" about anything. Unless you *know* "most" of them (in the billions???) you're only assuming. Not a safe thing, in these discussions.

Ok, what I intended for the one minority member being better than none was that I would perceive that "one" to be the start to a change, not just a token member. That actually having a minority member implies that the chapter is trying to accomplish some kind of "difference." That is how I meant it to be.

I'm glad you bring up the point about diversity and difference. I agree with you greatly and my main point is that it is hard enough for many historically white glos to even make a "difference" or "diversify."

If diversity isn't a suitable goal, than what is? I thought something like difference was sought out, appreciated, something that many orgs strive for? But diversity or making a difference doesn't mean anything to people, than what's the point? - That's the way a lot of "whities" :) tend to think when discussing a subject like this.

Diversity isn't good enough, difference isn't good enough, what is?

Libra, how's your friend pikey doin' LOL, you know I'm just playin' :)

I don't want this to turn into a flurry of white people saying, "My parents wouldn't care one way or another if I joined a black GLO," but the truth is that's probably what will happen.

My mother is very anti-sorority -- she didn't want me to join one at all; she said they were too "fluffy" and I wouldn't get anything meaningful out of one. But from her views I can deduce that she would probably prefer me in a primarily black organization because at least then it would be an educational experience! My dad would feel similarly, although he was less anti-sorority than my mother. And as for the majority of my white friends' parents, the most severe reaction I can imagine from most of them is a raised eyebrow.

That's not the issue at hand, however.

I don't really think the family members in the article were WRONG, just misguided -- they were just concerned that Alexander would be treated as a token, not accepted as himself, and that this would be less likely to happen in a primarily black fraternity. I guess we won't get to know whether or not this would have actually been the case now though.

GREAT POINT. So why does everyone assume the family in the article is indicitive of EVERY black family, thus creating a DOUBLE STANDARD? That's the only reason why I made that comment. To show that it goes both ways!

damasa, I see where you are coming from. What I mean is the danger comes from having that *one* minority member and becoming comfortable, as if you are now DIVERSE and therefore beyond scrutiny.

Diversity ITSELF is not a goal. PLURALISM or COEQUALITY is.

There goes that "everyone" again........hard habit to break, ain't it? (I use it too sometimes, so I know I'm guilty as well.)

But putting that aside, please help me out with this one:

Here's an example of what looks like a double standard (generalizations for demonstration purposes only)--

Any NPC/NIC org says, "Hey, we have people from other races and backgrounds in our group, too!" this is often dismissed as "tokenism".

Any NPHC org says, "Hey, we have white people in our group too--look at Eleanor Roosevelt (aside: 50 years ago...) this is not considered "tokenism".

Why is this?
I swear, this is not trying to start a flame, I'm just wanting to wrap my brain around it.

Adrienne (PNAM-2003)

one NPHCers VERY LONG response
 

I can only speak from my own knowledge base here but...

It is indeed more than merely joining a "traditionally" white organization at work here, I think. As others have indicated, NPHC membership has traditionally gone beyond the collegiate infrastructure. In past generations, because the reach of what black folks could participate in was so limited, your BGLO membership extended to social and service activities for you AND your family even when you were fifty, sixty years old. (I was told fondly about cards parties that would last all night with graduate Sorors and their spouses back in the 1950s and 1960s). You were a Greek member. You were active in your church. Maybe you were a member of the Links, OES, PHA Masons or teacher’s group. That was about the limit of your social infrastructure.

"Many" black american leaders were/are members of NPHCs (although granted the leaders of many Civil Rights activities were our blue collar brothers and sisters). Even today, you will hear “oh, that’s Reverend (Dr, Atty.) Duncan. He’s a Kappa,” uttered with no hesitation. To a great extent, we are still defined by the BGLO we’ve joined. Almost every middle (or lower middle) class black person knows of at least ONE NPHC sorority or fraternity (and who's who in it too). There are only nine groups, and we all pretty much do things the same way, and have for years. So while his mother may have appeared to be rather short-sighted, in her generation if you were going to be anything in this world, you belonged to a Great 8 (now Divine 9) organization.

BTW, this "not paying for tuition" threat is not quite as uncommon amongst NPHC folks: I know many a parent that won’t even pay the membership dues if their child pledges a different NPHC organization than to which they belong (and honestly, I’m probably among them). Unlike the NPC, it's pretty easy to either join a NPHC group through a city-wide chapter or simply to charter a new chapter of the campus, so using "don't have a current chapter on the campus" is not an acceptable excuse to pledge another group. People take their membership into THEIR SPECIFIC NPHC organization very seriously (I could go on about THAT, but I’ll stop there).

Before I'd started going out with him, my ex-bf had joined DKE. As an NPHC member, I was a bit critical of his decision, simply because I couldn't imagine what being in a TWGLO brought to his social life and future success. Later, having met his fraternity brothers, I could totally see why he'd joined, and certainly couldn't question his business and social connections. But honestly, his greek social life would have been WAY different had he joined one of the five D9 fraternities.

While the D9 (especially the ones founded after 1914) have always been pretty accepting of non-black members (my own chapter added both a Mexican and Vietnamese member while I was chapter president, and one of the charter chapter members was white), I can see how some would see the statements of the folks in the article as a bit of a double standard. It really is though simply a change of a major social infrastructure for black folks. It’s only been one generation (my mothers) since blacks were really on college campuses, joining any organization that pleased them. One generation is not a lot of time—most social changes in a culture take centuries, so I’m just not that surprised that this guy’s family would still feel this way about joining a TWGLO (see, they don’t have Greek Chat to expand their horizons :D). Hope this helps a bit.

NPHC orgs DO NOT going around saying things like this because it is not an issue. Next example.....

EDITTED:

Please educate yourself about NPHC orgs, before you get cut and paste happy. Eleanor Roosevelt was not the first or the last non-african american member. She is merely one in a LONG line and is in plenty of company. She didn't just pop up within the last 5 years, unlike with SOME orgs.

I used her because most folks know who she is.

Ma'am, we are arguing for the same side, lol. We are saying the same thing. If the black family in the article feels that way, what is to say they ALL do? And furthermore, what is to say that NO white families feel that way? That is what is IMPLIED when one alledges a double standard.

And when I said "everyone," I meant it as a generality for purposes of this thread. :)

My point is this: It can NOT be called a double standard when it is equally likely that both sides will have the same reaction to similar situations.

Again, I do not necessarily condone the mindset of this familyor any other family that might feel this way. But to call it a double standard is absurd, imo.

Also, as for the tokenism issue you raise, it is totally different. It is often assumed that BGLO's do not have white members AT ALL. I think the poster was simply trying to illustrate that not only do they have white members, but some of them are quite famous. Also, BGLO's do not face the burden of diversifying that traditionally white orgs do. That is because there is RARELY an instance where discrimination has been an issue. I bet we can all think of instances where blacks have been denied access to historically white GLO's. Can anyone document (WITH A SOURCE, lol) a time when a white person was denied entry into a BGLO?

Honeykiss:
With all due respect, I would refer you to the following GC threads as examples where this person was held up as a member of an NPHC organization. This shows that the issue IS raised. The question was, why does this not constitute tokenism. I appreciate your enthusiasm, but it didn't answer the question.

http://forums.greekchat.com/gcforums...threadid=25714

http://forums.greekchat.com/gcforums...?threadid=4790

http://forums.greekchat.com/gcforums...?threadid=1385

Granted, the way I posed the question was very simplified, but that was for the sake of discussion--I was trying to clarify a certain point.

Librasoul--thank you! This is what I have been trying to understand. I appreciate your patience in taking the time to explain it so well.

Adrienne (PNAM-2003)

((This shows that the issue IS raised. The question was, why does this not constitute tokenism.))

Hmm, I though people knew that tokensim in its simplistic form was one minority out of _________. Simply speaking, Eleanor is not THE ONLY non-african american member out of ________.

Clear enough? :D


----------------------

On another note, I believe Hoosier has a tendency to post articles such as this to get a rile out of people (or at least that has been my oberservation over that last few weeks). Therefore, I will not be posting on this thread anymore. If anyone has a comment, please PM me.

Sometime it is good to get a rile out of people. It makes us think and try to express our ideas. Through this we learn about eachother and have the ability to influence/change/educate eachother. If we didn't have topics such as this, we might not have the opportunity to consider the sides of the situation. I think these discussions are a way for people to learn and make people think about what, why, and how they really feel.

Re: one NPHCers VERY LONG response
 

http://www.handykult.de/plaudersmili...mile/claps.gif I didn't want to take up space by quoting your entire post, hence the one liner..... Anyway, I really didn't want to exhaust myself (and believe me, participating in race discussions on GC is beyond exhausting) by chiming in on this post, and I was really hoping someone would say what I was thinking so that I didn't have to. Thank you Shelacious, for doing just that. http://www.handykult.de/plaudersmili...mile/claps.gif

so basically you're damned if you do and damned if you don't.

people will yell and scream about why univ of alabama, etc npc sororities don't have minority members. people start saying that the sororities are racist and don't want diversity.

then you have men and women who WANT to break the barrier and go where they fit well and are forced to either not join or quit what they have started.

so where do we go from here???

it's as if you take a few baby steps forward and then take some major steps back.

the whole thing is sad

To whoever made the comment that white families would probably not want their children joining BGLOS (librasoul22, I think it was you)...you're right, at least about my family. My dad would have gone through the roof. I don't think he would've threatened not to pay my tuition, but he definitely would not have helped me out with sorority dues or anything. He actually wasn't too keen on me joining DZ--since my sisters are Chi-Os, I think it was always assumed that that's where I'd go if I went anywhere. Plus, he went to the same school I go to, and his memories of my chapter (which was a little different back then) are not so fond. He's since come around, but there would have been no chance of that if I had joined an historically black organization, I'm sure.

To all those who said their parents wouldn't mind, that's good. But I'm just telling you that there are exceptions to that rule and librasoul22 might not have been *too* far off the mark.

Wow, a lot of responses since I left for school...

I guess, first, because I feel like my opinions and intentions of my first post were interpreted differently than what I meant: I, too, as a lot of other human beings, have a tendency to overgeneralize things. We all do it, it's part of being a human and having a working brain. So if I offended anyone with my thought that racism is still a problem, I apologize. We have all admitted that it is, and I am sorry if I overgeneralized the South by saying so. I am speaking from opinion, my own knowledge and research, and all that I know. And I never said that racism is NOT a problem in Southern California... it definitely is (a lot of my family members are still very close-minded)... just from my own opinion, my knowledge, and my research, it isn't quite as predominant. I don't have the attitude of "at least it's not as bad in the south." Have you seriously witnessed/heard about the problems we have in SoCal? I'd love to live somewhere without the whole "Hollywood" stigma we get, amongst other things... don't get me started. Back to the point: Last I checked, I was not all-knowing and I was entitled to my own opinion, as are all of you GCers... I don't enjoy being shot down on a part of my opinion that wasn't even the point of my posting... but I appreciate you guys making me realize to think about what I say/post/write/whatever. We all need a kick in the a$$ sometimes.

Second, in the United States or California as a whole, I am not considered an ethnic minority. Where I have grown up and gone to school, I am a minority in many ways: ethnically, socially, academically, etc. I cannot say that I understand the situations facing many ethnic minorities (or any other forms of minorities for that matter), but I have tried. Speaking with friends/relatives/co-workers/etc., and hearing their stories that affect them because they are a minority, I am able to think of some situation that I can relate to. But it doesn't mean I can completely understand them. Same thing with the whole South commentary... I don't live there, I can know what I know and have my feelings on it, but I cannot completely understand it like any person who truly knows the South can, no matter how much I try.

Finally, the whole point of my response was to get some thought-provoking comments in... I guess I succeeded there. I agree with all those who said sometimes it's good to rile people up. That's pretty much what politics are all about... not everyone will be happy with the outcome, and I just happened to not be happy about this situation's outcome... in my opinion, with conversations like this, we are moving forward from the whole race debate. Julius Alexander gave it some sincere thought- good for him. He declined the bid- also good for him. I can't say that I'm not proud of some girls that have declined my chapter's extended bids because they had their own reasons. But he gave it a try. It sucks in a way that his mom threatened to stop paying tuition- I mean, hey, if someone was paying mine and threatened to stop, I'd be doing whatever they wanted, but I dont have that luxury- I can definitely see where his mom is coming from.

Yeah, so there went another hour reading and writing that could have been contributed toward my finals... ;)

Because one chapter, or the actions of a few members do not make the entire organization. Look at those renegade AKAs who were implicated in those hazing deaths a few months ago. I have AKAs in my family, and I love and respect their sisterhood. I know full well that what those alleged members did in no way reflects on the strength of AKA's legacy. What a few fools decided to do at a fraternity party doesn't reflect on the legacy of the entire organization.

Well, I'm a minority, and I do think that the parents' decision was based on prejudice. All things being equal, what was the difference between this fraternity and the Alphas? Both are lifetime committments. Both are concerned with molding fine, upstanding young men. Okay, so the Alphas' mission is to serve the Black community -- who is to say that once this guy joined Phi Psi that he would stop serving the black community? I haven't stopped loving my people just because I also love Alpha Phi -- and if you think otherwise, then that, I'm afraid, is your issue.

Not every chapter of every NPC or NIC organization operates the same way. Not every chapter of every NPHC organization acts the same way -- and if you're in the NPHC, I'm sure you can vouch for chapters within your organization that do things a little differently than your own. To say to a guy -- a FAMILY member, no less - that you either join a black fraternity or none at all is the height of arrogance, and I'm really disappointed in his family for reacting that way.

If I were a parent, and my daughter decided to join Delta Sigma Theta instead of Alpha Phi when she went to college, I would be disappointed that she decided not to continue the legacy, but I would support her decision because I know that as a young adult, she made the best choice for her, and that I can't continue to dictate my daughter's life. I would support her no matter what she decided -- including paying her membership fees.



As someone who joined Alpha Phi long after her university days were over, I can tell you that joining Alpha Phi is a lifetime commitment. I've seen this old chestnut tossed around quite a bit on GC, and I for one, would love to see it put to rest.

Amen to that. EVERY single thread that turns to the differences b/w NPHC and NPC/NIC- an NPHC member tends to say that NPHC is a lifetime commitment, and then either said outright or strongly implied that NPC/NIC is not.

While I definately commend the strong alum network for NPHC groups, it is BLATANTLY FALSE to say that NPC/NIC is not a lifetime commitment. It's an unnecessary belittlement of NPC/NIC members and their groups.

I am a KD for life, not four years. My four years are over and done with, and i'm still very active. As anyone can see looking around GC - there are many many active NPC/NIC alumnae in the world.

Let's just remember that NPC and NIC national headquarters would be kaput, financially and personnel-wise, if NPC/NIC membership wasn't for life. :) How would we explain our (for the most part) beautiful headquarters buildings?

Personally I think this thread has been VERY productive.

cash78mere, it is not that simple. It is usually pretty obvious when a person is chosen simply to fill a quota. When an org is genuinely trying to "diversify" and promote pluralism at the same time, it defintely shows.